- 31 minutes ago
A debate on the unprecedented prison break in Chennai, Tamil Nadu, where seventeen inmates escaped from custody before thirteen were nabbed. Former IPS officer Sanjay Sahay notes that correctional facilities are administered by the prison department rather than the state police, highlighting severe understaffing, missing multi-tier security barriers, and an urgent demand for technology upgrades. Sahay remarked, 'I think this political slugfest is fouling the policing atmosphere.' Meanwhile, political analyst S. Muralidharan attributes shortcomings to systemic degradation under the previous DMK government and stresses ongoing reforms under the TVK administration, citing the suspension of negligent wardens and the role of CCTV networks. In contrast, political analyst Harish Mohamed Ibrahim criticises the administration for deflecting blame, pointing to recent governance failures and lapses in intelligence. The discussion underscores critical gaps in jail protocols, operational surveillance, and the necessity of structural correctional blueprints.
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NewsTranscript
00:00There are questions being asked right now of law in order. How did something like this happen
00:05in a presided deni? It's something that's never really happened in Tamil Nadu decades ago. There
00:10was one such incident and now this. Let me open this up. Joining us on this broadcast, we've got
00:15Harish Muhammad Ibrahim, political analyst, Sanjay Sahai, former IPS, as well as Mr. S. Murali
00:21Dharan, political analyst. Mr. Murali Dharan, I'd like to begin with you. Serious questions that are
00:25being asked right now of the Tamil Nadu police, of the TVK government, sir. Because I'm not
00:29going to look at this one incident. I'm going to look at a string of incidents that's led
00:33to questions over the law and order in the state of Tamil Nadu. It was one of the biggest
00:38issues in the elections. Nothing's changed months on.
00:46Akshita, what we need to understand is this was a systemic failure on the part of the DMK.
00:55which let most of these shortcomings, you know, thrive. And they did nothing about it. Because
01:04they were just using the police force. They were using the police force for their own whims and
01:08fancies to arrest media people, you know, activists, etc.
01:12Sir, if a jailbreak happens, we're blaming the DMK for it.
01:16Yeah. No, I'll tell you. See, there was no... See, when I said systemic failure, the police
01:24machinery had lost its thing. You know, you also find that, you know, the commissioner of Chennai
01:28is being investigated in the Pokso case where he has taken huge amount of right. And this guy was
01:34almost like a right hand to the DMK. So there's a lot of ruck inside the, you know, the police
01:39system,
01:40which the PBK government is cleaning up. Okay. One by one. Okay. And as soon as they came in, this
01:46guy was moved out and moved to DMAC and they found out, you know, he has taken out bribes and
01:51he has amassed wealth close to some 400 crores.
01:53IPS officer, 400 crores of wealth. And these are things. And then apart from that, you had the IES officers
01:58who are involved in other activities.
02:00I'm not going to deny any of what you're saying, sir. It's going to take some time.
02:03It's going to take time. I'm not denying what you're saying, but there's never been a jailbreak under the DMK.
02:07I will highlight that.
02:08You can say whatever you want to put the police in. This never happened to them.
02:11No, true, true. True. Because what happens is, see, when the system loses respect, when senior officials do not have
02:20the respect of their subordinates,
02:22the system collapses. They will not be able to enforce what they want to. They will not be able to
02:28order them, go do this, do that.
02:29You know, I want to have, you know, things done, you know, within a span of time.
02:33Because they've been used. They got corrupt. So that cleaning up is happening. So that cleaning up will take.
02:39Right now, what is happening is all these wardens are suspended. 13 of the 14 is already caught.
02:44And there's a lot of technology there today. There's no, it's not like those days.
02:48In Tamil Nadu, every street we have, you know, we have video cameras, you know, with CCTV cameras in each
02:54and every house.
02:55And commercial establishments have to have. So these guys are not going to go very far.
02:59You know, even though they would love to escape and go home.
03:02Four are still out there. So we'll see. Mr. Sanjay Sahai, former IPS is also with us.
03:08Mr. Sahai, who would you pin the blame on? Quite simply, when this kind of security breach happens that, you
03:14know, 17 inmates managed to plot an escape and then pull it off. Who do you blame?
03:19I'll just state the facts. One is I think this political slugfest is spalling the policing atmosphere.
03:26There is no denying the fact in Tamil Nadu and across the country.
03:29Point number two, people are not even aware of the fact. It's not the police which guards the prisons.
03:35It is done by the prison department, by their warders, jailers and their whole system. That is point number two.
03:40Point number three, most of these places, whatever might be the political dispensation, the nature of deployment is very small.
03:47I was just looking into the staff strength of sub-jail in Tamil Nadu and it is only 13 inclusive
03:54of a scavenger and a cook,
03:56which means effectively it's 11 at night time. How many people were there? I have absolutely no idea.
04:02So might be some three, four, five. What is very, very intriguing is that all these people were kept in
04:07one cell.
04:08And of the 17, five of the inmates belonged to a sensational murder case in Vikramangalam.
04:16So they were, you can call them as hardened criminals and they were a part of that 17.
04:22The other intriguing part is that once these people were overpowered, there were no second or the third barriers.
04:28Because if you see a prison cell, even if you escape from there, there are other levels of barriers.
04:35So I don't know what happened to the barriers. And if you are talking about technology, I think the nature
04:41of technology which we use in actual operation is certainly not something which we can boast of.
04:47Where was the alarm systems functioning? Where were the CCTV things at that particular point in time?
04:54So there is huge amount of technology upgrade at the operational level which is required.
04:59I am very happy about the fact that 13 people have been nabbed.
05:04But the other reality is that given the nature of CCTV cameras and the capabilities which we have,
05:10I don't think even the faces of these people would have been cross-checked and reconciled with whatever the live
05:16cameras are doing.
05:17So there are lots of issues involved, leaving aside the political slugfest, which A is the correctional system in the
05:26country.
05:27So starting with staff strength. And these are not the people who carry weapons.
05:31They don't carry weapons inside the jail unless there are special circumstances.
05:34No, and there's no word on that. But Mr. Sahai, I think while you're right, we shouldn't get caught up
05:40in the politics of it.
05:41I think it's only right that we ask questions also of the government or what's happening.
05:44Yeah, a hundred percent. But the point is, the people who are talking about improving law and order don't have
05:50a blueprint of correctional services.
05:52So we'll keep listening to it for all times to come. My whole problem is that I need a clear
05:58-cut blueprint.
05:59So these are the jails. This is what is happening. This is the current staff strength. This is the current
06:04training. This is the nature of technology.
06:07Now what is the protocol? Now how do you open that particular cells because somebody is feigning illness?
06:14Now there's a standard protocol. There's a standard protocol. So that, see very clearly the DC of prisons is saying
06:21that there was a human error.
06:23Which means there is error. And night time protocols were not followed.
06:25No, but there's no further steps. There's no further protocol. You're right in highlighting that none of that has been
06:31followed.
06:31And clearly these personnel were overpowered as well, which means 17 inmates managed to gang up and then get out
06:36of the prison.
06:37And how long were they, how long the 17 were together? So as to transpire.
06:44No, 13 now, 13 now have been caught. There are four more who are still out there.
06:48But you're right that they managed to plot this together, seated, and there was no clue whatsoever that they were
06:52doing this.
06:53Harish Muhammad Ibrahim, your first views on this. Because Mr. Murali Dharan says that look, this is the legacy of
06:59the DMK that we're having to handle.
07:03Like his party, his statement is also loud. Why? Because this side of the stupendous jailbreak happened way back 30
07:15years before, three decades before.
07:17And even during the last five years of the DMK, there is not even one prisoner who has been getting
07:22out of jail as happened.
07:23If the same kind of monotonous thing has to be said for every of your culpable things, the DMK has
07:30to be blamed, then the sheer incompetence of this government should be questioned.
07:35Because accountability is not even in their nerves of either their leader, Mr. Gujain, or to their party members.
07:42Because as you say, the last five months, if you take the accounts of all the culpable issues which have
07:51been brought to the justice, there have been day-to-day affairs of kids being molested.
07:57There has been a day-to-day affairs of murders. On an average, 8 to 10 murders across the state.
08:03And top of that, a TVK member has been producing 137 kilos in the international market. It's almost 1,000
08:11crore rupees of meth, which has been going to the deep roots of Nahogori and Tutukuri district.
08:17So, from the top to the bottom, if you have the personals like the TVK members who are into all
08:24kinds of crimes, what else do we could accept from the government or from the political person?
08:31Having said that, this particular prison has been there for almost seven to eight years, and it has been confined
08:39with almost 300 personals and only four personals of guarded securities were there.
08:43It is a three-tier security prison, but whether it is an intelligence failure, yes, of course, it is an
08:50intelligence failure.
08:51Of course, the prison department has lost its credibility, and whether the culpable minister who is responsible for this is
08:59going to take accountable, no.
09:00Mr. Nirmal Kumar, who heads the prison department, whether he is going to take any accountability, if we are going
09:07to aim for that, then we would be at the losing spot.
09:09Whether he has taken any accountability for the EV's shortfall on across Tamil Nadu, there has been length and breadth
09:16of shortfalls in the electricity boat, and the electricity, whether he has taken any accountability, no.
09:21So, whatever this government, either Mr. Vijay or Mr. Nirmal Kumar, or for any of that matter, any of the
09:28ministers will never, ever going to take any accountability for their flaws.
09:34No, here's... Okay.
09:34They are always going to, one second, even if it is going to be next five years, if they are
09:38going to continue in the government, for each and every of their negligence, each and every of their incompetence, they
09:45are going to blame the DMK, which is going to have to be tackled at any given point at that.
09:50No, and Mr. Murali Dharan, is that the right trend? That if any issue comes up, the DMK is blamed?
09:56There's a reason the people voted for the TVK, sir, and to point fingers at the DMK constantly, and then
10:02there'll be questions about what action is taken, because right now, the suspensions that have happened, you know, is that
10:07just small fry being targeted?
10:11Not at all, Akshita. I think the Minister of Responsibility takes complete responsibility.
10:17But what's the action, sir? Because clearly, you know, there were clear lapses. There are very brazen lapses, for which
10:23you're blaming the DMK, of course.
10:24Yes, yes. But, yes, I'll come to that part of DMK. So, things are, you know, being put in place,
10:32and this will be improved. Probably, it's a wake-up call, not only for TVK, it's for everybody, including the
10:40police force and other associated departments.
10:43But they will get together, and work on that, and try to strengthen this. Probably, we can modernize these, you
10:49know, as the gentleman, the IPS gentleman, I told you, you know, modernizing is probably due, and all that will
10:55be taken.
10:56And technology, as I said, when I said technology, you know, nobody can escape that path, because you have AI,
11:01and you also issue recognition, which can be used, you know, on an extensive thing today.
11:07I mean, in a crowd earlier, probably, you know, there are a thousand people, it'll take a lot of time
11:10for us to track somebody down.
11:11Today, it's not the case, you know, an intelligent camera can identify the person, pinpoint where he is going about.
11:17So, these are things which can be, you know, I'm not saying, not shying away from the responsibility.
11:23Yes, TVK has to take the responsibility. Yes, the minister will take the responsibility.
11:27And the chief minister will support him, any which way he could, to strengthen, one is the prison team, as
11:35well as enhance these security measures.
11:37So, nobody is shying away. The point why I said, you know, it's DMK, DMK.
11:41You know, DMK, Harish has spoke about somebody selling meth, but nobody was selling meth during TVK time and producing
11:49movies for the chief minister's son and his wife.
11:53You know, this was seen during the DMK period.
11:56The police lost the respect. Police lost everything.
11:59Their decorum is gone. Their discipline is gone.
12:01So, things have to be brought back. That fear. See, earlier, you call up on a chief minister, curtail, orders
12:07of, you know, IPS or IES officer. Things get done.
12:10Today, these guys call up and tell their first file master's DMK.
12:14And this is what is happening.
12:16Before Mr. Udini Stani was arrested, Udini Stani was a completely, you know, botched up thing.
12:23And they had to wait outside his bathroom for three hours because some of the police people, they were informing
12:29the DMK.
12:30So, all kind of things happening. So, I can't use them as excuses.
12:33Yes, but they'll be made accountable.
12:35Like how Mr. Anbil Mahesh has been sent to prison.
12:39Next is Mr. K. Nehru, whose, you know, applications are bailed and the review applications were denied.
12:45So, one by one, even those politicians who are responsible for the current states will be brought to justice.
12:50So, this is a guarantee we have.
12:52Yeah, at least the DMK person like Mr. Udini, Mr. Anbil Mahesh Foyamali, is facing the law as a law
13:00-abiding citizen.
13:01And they are not as like your leader who is showing his back and running from the flea, from the
13:07scene.
13:07And coming after three to four days after when 41 people have died by coming to see your leader.
13:15So, please don't bring all those.
13:16Whether the law will take its own cause. Sir, I haven't interrupted.
13:20I haven't interrupted, sir. Had some civility.
13:24I don't interrupt during what you are speaking.
13:27Achita, put him on hold.
13:29Achita.
13:30Sir, Mr. Murali, then I'll give you a chance to respond.
13:33Had some civility.
13:34I didn't interrupt you.
13:36Had some patience.
13:38So, haven't said that.
13:39You guys trying to kill the chief minister. You want to maintain civility there?
13:42And guys say, you are the chief minister. You are the most…
13:46Mr. Mr.
13:47Mr.
13:48That's civility.
13:49And that's civility.
13:51And Anbil was arrested.
13:52Achita, if this is the way you are going to contact the debate, then he will be unfair.
13:55Go ahead.
13:57Keep that guy in mute. I didn't interrupt him while he speaks.
14:01Come on.
14:01The truth jitters you.
14:03No, no, hold on, Mr. Murali. Just hold on.
14:05The truth jitters you. Please be calm.
14:07Having said that, Mr. Udayanidi or Mr. Anbil Manish Foyamali, whether there is falsely
14:13propagated, whatever the case is, which is going to be foisted against them, they will
14:18go ahead and make sure to exhort Faison.
14:21Whether this government, as he took this particular case, whether his government have produced any
14:27charge sheet for the last 100 days, not even if they could produce their charge sheet against
14:32the A1 culprit. And you are speaking about whatever the cases which you have been speaking
14:37upon. Have some shame, sir. Have some civility. Take the responsibility for whatever the
14:42mistakes you are doing. You want to go ahead and run this government for the reuse of your
14:46mafia group running. Whether the Tamil Nadu people will fool each and every time to do
14:50your thing, that will never ever happen. And that is the reason you are being rooted
14:55upon even during your two by-elections. And that with the results will you have to expect
15:00for the other upcoming elections as well. So, don't try to fool the people.
15:03No, no, Harish, come on. The TVK won the Bipole.
15:05No, no, no. Harish, come on. The TVK won the Bipole.
15:06No, no, no. Harish, come on. The TVK won the Bipole. And what, at what, at what, at what
15:08cost? At what cost? At what cost?
15:11At what cost? At what cost? And they have bifurcated the AADNK by doing a horse trading.
15:16No, but, no, no. I mean, you, you spoke of the verdict of the Bipole. I'm telling you,
15:20the verdict of the Bipole was for the TVK.
15:22So, Mr. Waipo admitted, Mr. Waipo admitted, Mr. entire AADNK clause of 25 MLA's have admitted.
15:29So, what kind of treatment you are doing it for the justice and the constitutional framework?
15:33The separate aspect, you spoke of the Bipole result. The Bipole result was for the TVK.
15:38No, no, no, no, please. Harish, let's please not lecture the anchor now and get into that
15:43once again. All I said is when you're referring to the Bipole verdict, the Bipole verdict was for
15:46the TVK. So, what are you talking about?
15:48No, Akshita, it is a 2X one. Then don't question what's the impropriety. Go to ask them.
15:54I didn't ask you on propriety, sir. I asked you about your own statement.
15:57Akshita.
15:57I have said that. Enough. Go ahead.
16:00Mr. Murali Dharan.
16:03Akshita, ask him not to, you know, sound so rude and, you know, typical DMK, you know, show attitude.
16:11And don't worry, Mr. Harish, you know, if nothing works, we will get jailer Mutuvel Pandian to handle the issue.
16:20Okay, so not to worry about all that. And take a chill pill. Things are under control.
16:34Mr. Sanjay Sahai, what's the clean-up that's needed to actually address this issue and address clearly the loopholes in
16:40the system right now? I don't think this is a Tamil Nadu problem alone. This is something that's been reportedly,
16:45repeatedly covered here on India today of how prisoners have access to technology or prisoners have mobile phones, how there
16:52are multiple breaches. It's just perhaps gone too far.
16:54In Tamil Nadu.
16:56See, there are two issues. One, if this is the level and quality of political engagement, I don't think whichever
17:02political party it may be, they will be able to govern. Point number one. Point number two.
17:06No, yeah, there's endless finger pointing. You're right.
17:08No, no, I'll just finish. I have nothing to do with any of the political parties. The second point is,
17:13somebody was talking about the decorum and discipline. If the decorum and discipline was wiped out with the earlier dispensation
17:21of all the police officers,
17:23what is the blueprint to bring out the decorum and discipline? And every political dispensation will talk of the same.
17:30Okay, that apart. Now, coming to the prisons as such. Now, prisons has variety of problems.
17:35Now, first and foremost is the prison staff. So, there is a shortage of prison staff at every place. Point
17:42number one. Point number two, there is lack of technology. There are systems today by which we can control every
17:48inch of the land inside the prison.
17:50Point number three, jammers in Bangalore prison basically control the signals outside and not the signals inside. Point number four,
17:59there is additional amount of security which has to be given to these prisons.
18:05And most importantly is the responsibility and accountability. There is a DIG in Karnataka, I think, has been imprisoned, not
18:13only because of the inefficiency which was being done here. There is also that they created some fake court order.
18:20So, broadly, these are, you take Tihar jail, you take Karnataka, Parapanagrahara, you take any of these jails. And there
18:27is inherently an understanding that these VIP prisons, we have seen the VIP prison inmates from Tamil Nadu in Karnataka
18:38and what happened to that.
18:39So, this is the major issue. And the only way we can go ahead is technology, technology and technology because
18:46we have not been able to set right the human beings for a variety of reasons.
18:50No, and hopefully, hopefully it will get better. Hopefully this serves as a wake-up call for the authorities in
18:55Tamil Nadu and outside as well.
18:57That there is a serious need to revamp the jail system and revamp how these prisons function. As Mr. Sahai
19:03puts it, use technology now.
19:05Thank you very much, Harish Ibrahim, Murali Dharan as well as Sanjay Sahai for joining us on this broadcast.