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Global style influencer, human rights activist, and cultural studies professor Amy Sall has spent her life negotiating two continentsâan experience that's helped shape her view of African Thought as well as that powerful place where style, culture, and politics meet.
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00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. Amy Saul has spent her life negotiating two continents. As a first-generation
00:33American, she was born and raised in New York City. However, with a father who spent 20 years in the
00:38UN and both parents hailing from Senegal, her ties to West Africa run deep. On one hand, she's had a
00:44pretty cosmopolitan upbringing, studying at the New School and earning her master's at Columbia
00:49University, pausing only for an internship at Vogue and the UN. On the other, Amy has spent
00:55extensive time in Kenya, working with victims of female genital mutilation, enforced marriage,
01:00and speaking out about the political and cultural exploitation of Africans and African-Americans.
01:06This bicultural world has inspired Amy to found Sunu, an evolving publication that focuses on the
01:12African voice in critical thought and aesthetics. I don't think there could be a better moment to
01:18discuss Amy's personal experience and perspective of these two very unique worlds. How can fashion
01:23become global without turning culture into fleeting fads? How do we explore unfamiliar foreign places
01:29without stripping them of context? These are questions that seem crucial to creating a more
01:34responsible and respectful pursuit of a globally infused style industry. As a lifelong devotee to African
01:41and human rights, Amy knows that politics and style start at the same exact place, with the individual.
01:52Good morning, Amy.
01:53Good morning, Christine.
01:54Thank you so much for being a guest on Unstyled.
01:57Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here.
01:59Thanks. So you grew up in New York, and your parents are both from Senegal.
02:04Yep.
02:04So tell me a little bit about what it felt like to be a first-generation American growing up in
02:09New York
02:09and really having these strong ties to West Africa.
02:12Yeah. So we lived in the Bronx for a long time, so my family moved to. You know, it was
02:18an interesting
02:18upbringing. We grew up in a very Senegalese home. You know, the food, the music, we kept the culture
02:23very much alive. But it was interesting having to negotiate these kind of identities outside the home.
02:30In school, I went to—my schools were pretty diverse, but they were a largely African-American
02:36Latino community, and I was always cast as the other because I was African. So it was weird having
02:42to straddle this line with being an African born in American, but being very African and not really
02:51being accepted.
02:52Did you feel like you didn't fit in?
02:54For a long time, yeah. Because I was African and because I was a dark African, there were a lot
02:58of
02:59issues surrounding identity. And schoolchildren can be quite cruel. I don't know. There was a period
03:04in which I just kind of grew into my own and accepted my Senegalese culture fully and was not
03:10apologetic about it. And, you know, I wouldn't want to change for anything. I wouldn't want to be
03:17anything else. I wouldn't want to be from any other place.
03:20How did your parents help to kind of lay the foundation in terms of just helping you to adapt to,
03:24you know, going to school here in New York?
03:26They've always just instilled in me the importance of understanding where you come from,
03:31understanding who you are, and being proud of it. They taught me to be unwavering in my
03:35love for my culture and my country. And so that helped in being a little bit more defiant and
03:39being a little more confident. It's not like I ever fought back with these kids, but I always knew
03:43where I come from is a special place because my parents always drilled that into me. And they knew
03:48that they came here for my education, for a better life for me. So they always wanted me to
03:55understand that perspective and understand that who I am is someone special and no child or no one
04:03can can take that away from me.
04:05So you got your master's at Columbia.
04:08What did you get your master's in?
04:09I got my master's in human rights studies. My regional focus was sub-Saharan Africa,
04:14and I ended up focusing on youth economic empowerment. Because I realized there was a huge
04:20global youth unemployment crisis, and because Africa is close to my heart, I wanted to zero in
04:25on sub-Saharan Africa. I just wanted to explore why so many young people were unemployed. Youth
04:32unemployment definitely is a global issue, but the themes that I was finding, I think, were very much
04:37African themes. I mean, maybe there are generational conflicts in other cultures, but I know in Africa
04:42it's a huge thing. Older people don't really see, I don't want to generalize, but a lot of older
04:48people don't really see young people as worthy of having certain positions or worthy of being included
04:53because they're young. It's like a whole ageism thing.
04:56You also do a really great job of sort of speaking out politically through your social media, which is,
05:02you know, lots of people do it. But I think that you managed to merge that with a really beautiful
05:06aesthetic and a real point of view that I think is very distinctive to you. Can you talk a little
05:12bit
05:12about how you like to use that platform to talk about and express the things that you're passionate
05:16about? It's funny, because a lot of people seem to think that my Instagram is curated or it's like
05:21premeditated or whatever. It's purely, it's all natural. I know it's kind of weird to use the word
05:26natural with social media because in this day and age, but... That everything is so orchestrated.
05:31So highly filtered and whatnot. Yeah, exactly.
05:34Exactly. But I do what I feel when I feel it on my Instagram. If I feel that I want
05:41to say
05:41something on my Instagram, then I will say, if I feel I want to post a selfie, I will do
05:44it. If I
05:45feel I want to post an archival image, I will do it. It's just in a strange way, these things
05:50are
05:51extensions of myself. A lot of people find me and I always, I don't know, I cringe because I can
05:57be
05:57self-deprecating, but find me as quote unquote inspiration, which...
06:01You're so inspirational though. That's why you're here.
06:04Yeah, it's just, it's, it's really humbling. It's really humbling that people find something
06:08in me that they can relate to or they can aspire to. So I'm really humbled by when I get
06:14responses
06:15or messages of like people saying, I'm really inspired by what you do, or I'm interested in
06:19taking a human rights course, or I'm interested in getting my master's, like how did you? And so
06:25that I always appreciate. For me, what can be a little bit, a little bit scary and jarring is when
06:30people say that I'm an authority on things. People, I've had some people say, you are an authority on
06:37African issues or art. And that's just really, that to me is scary because I never claimed to be an
06:42authority on anything. I'm learning just as everyone else is learning. I'm, every time I'm curious about
06:47something, I go and I research and I find out about it and I'll share, but I would never claim
06:52to be an authority. Even if I had a million degrees, you know, I don't think I would want to
06:56be.
06:57I think it's the same with the term influencer, which I find to be...
07:00Yeah, which also scares me.
07:02I know. Influential how?
07:04I don't think I'm above or below anybody. And so I, those, those terms, I, I don't, I don't want
07:11them to be put on me, but...
07:12But you recently tweeted, and if it's okay, I'm going to read it to you.
07:16So to the social media stars who are quiet during these times, feigning care, whatever
07:21juju there is to delete your account, I hope you get it. And that was in light of recent
07:25violence affecting our country. First of all, I really admire that you said that. I think
07:29that's a great opportunity to use social media to express those feelings. I get really nervous
07:34sometimes about speaking out about political issues that maybe I don't feel like an authority
07:40on, but that I have obviously passionate feelings about.
07:43I just think that we are in a time where you cannot be idle. You can't be a bystander.
07:49You can't be passive. And I think that if you have, I don't know, whether it's like a million
07:55followers, 50,000 followers, you don't have to be outwardly political. But I think that,
07:59I mean, something should be said and say something with a level of sensitivity. I, what I noticed
08:05on certain social media accounts is that people were trying to address some of the issues that
08:12we've been facing, but in a way that was almost performative, that didn't seem genuine.
08:17Can you give any examples?
08:18I'll describe a photo. There was a photo of a social media, quote unquote star.
08:24She posted, it was a crying selfie, like her eyes were closed and it appeared she had just
08:30finished crying or something. And I was reading through some of the comments and some people
08:34called her out like, is this your way of, so, you know, it's things like that. It just doesn't feel
08:39like who cries and takes a selfie and then writes a whole thing of, I don't know. So it's things
08:43like
08:43that, that just, you know, the people can feel when something is genuine, when it's not. And if you feel
08:49compelled to say something about the issues, I think there needs to be a level of sensitivity and
08:54there needs to be a level of honesty. There needs to be a level of true compassion and not doing
08:58it
08:58just because you have X amount of followers and you have to do it. But well, I mean, you should
09:03be
09:03saying something no matter what, but don't do it in a way that just seems packaged and performative
09:09and insensitive. That to me is almost worse than just not saying anything at all, or just like
09:15pretending like it doesn't happen and you continue to post your vacation or whatever.
09:18Why do you think it's worse?
09:21Because it's not real. It's not, it's, it's, it feels like an obligation and not something that's
09:28honest and true. People are being shot and killed in the streets and to respond in a way that just
09:33seems so like, I don't know, packaged. It's, it doesn't, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't sit
09:38well with me.
09:39I always think of it as sort of the campaignifying of everything. You know, everything does feel like
09:44it needs to be packaged in order for people to understand it and digest it. And I think we
09:49should probably give our audiences more credit than that. That they can actually, they can actually
09:54get some raw feedback or, or, you know, feelings about a certain event or certain, you know,
10:01situation that's happening and not feel like if it's not delivered in a certain package that they're,
10:07they're not going to like it.
10:08It's underestimating their intelligence too. People can see through what's, you know, fake.
10:14Also just knowing as much as you can about what is happening. I think people just see what's
10:22happened in the last month and they don't realize that this is, there's a long history of this. This
10:26has been happening. And there are people being shot and killed who are unnamed to like, I mean,
10:32it's just that this is not anything new. I think just kind of, we should all just be educating
10:36ourselves on the history of what's been happening. And I say that everyone's form of activism and
10:42protest is not the same. You don't have to go out in the streets if that's not your thing, but
10:47if
10:47there's maybe you're a writer and you want to write something, I mean, there's, there are so many ways in
10:52which you can show your support or show that you are compassionate or show that you care about
10:59certain things. Not everything needs to be homogenized. Not everyone has to have one way
11:03of, I don't know, speaking out. So I would say like sensitivity, educating ourselves and finding
11:09your way of protest and activism that feels comfortable to you.
11:14That's really, really good advice. So you are really well known for your style. You have amazing
11:20style. You know, one of the reasons why I admire you and I admire your style is because it's really
11:24simple, but it's really memorable. As somebody that obviously cares about style and really takes a lot
11:29of pleasure in getting dressed and not in a way that says, I want you to notice me kind of
11:36way.
11:36But how would you say, you know, your Senegalese roots have really inspired your appreciation for
11:42fashion and also how it's informed your personal style?
11:45Yeah. I think specifically with Senegal, I've always been drawn to how elegant the women are,
11:52especially my grandmother. My grandmother is my style icon. Just, it's not even about what she's
11:58wearing. It's kind of the way she wears it, how she holds herself. She's just so incredibly elegant,
12:03but in a way that's not in your face. It's just very subtle. And I think a lot of most
12:08Senegalese
12:09women kind of have that innate understated elegance, which I, that's what I tried to incorporate.
12:14Does it come from confidence?
12:15I don't know. I think it's just embedded in the cultural DNA, if I can say that.
12:19Like a respect or appreciation for just getting dressed and looking good.
12:22There's no, every day women are dressed. Like there's no, like, you know, here we have,
12:29we kind of have this culture of like, you know, if we want, we can just wear our sweatpants and
12:32whatever. But like there, the women are dressed every day. And especially on Fridays, it's quite
12:37beautiful. It's called Juma. It's the Friday, where they have the Friday prayer and everyone is just
12:42dressed to the nines, the men, the women, the children. It's the most beautiful scene every Friday.
12:48But even on a regular day, people are just, they take pride in what they wear and it's really
12:52beautiful. And I think that's what I've kind of extracted from my Senegalese roots and culture.
12:56You know, I don't really wear wax prints or, you know, a lot of prints. And I think people expect
13:02me
13:02to do that because I'm African, but I'm like, being African is enough. Like I don't have to like
13:08over, not that it's like overperforming, but you know, I just think that being African, I don't need to
13:13like emphasize my African is. It's like, it's here. I'm here. I am. I'm just a minimalist at heart.
13:19But I do. There are things that I extract, like that sense of just pride and sense of
13:25understated elegance and having that elegance not always exude from what you're wearing,
13:30but just how you're wearing it.
13:38You interned at both the UN and Vogue magazine. Tell me a little bit about those two worlds
13:46colliding. You know, how did they inform each other? And what was your takeaway from both of those?
13:51Looking back, I realized a nine to five job is not really what I want, even though that would
13:57disappoint my father to hear. But I just, I think both places are, you know, they're very much,
14:04very much office culture. And I think the older I get and the more involved I'm getting in the work
14:10that is I'm trying to do, I realize I need openness and fluidity. So that, so office culture is not
14:15really for me. I was at the features department at Vogue, learned a lot about the process, but just
14:21realized that I think for a long time I was confusing passion with interests. And so I
14:27thought I was passionate about fashion and wanting to work in that world, but I was just
14:33interested in fashion. And so I realized I don't necessarily want to build a career in that world,
14:38but I like it. Also realizing for me that it was hard to always measure the impact of the work
14:45being
14:45done at the UN. It takes a long time for things to be implemented in countries. And even then-
14:51To see results.
14:52Yeah, to see results. And even then it's like the work, we can do all this great work at the
14:57UN,
14:57but if the heads of state don't have the political will to enact these kinds of things.
15:02So it sounds to me, and I could be wrong, and please tell me if I am, that Sunu is
15:06kind of an
15:07opportunity for you to have control over the messaging and over the impact, or hopefully influence
15:13the impact.
15:15Truly, yeah.
15:15That the kind of content that you want to create, people that you want to engage in that,
15:20you know, within that experience. So I would love to hear about how that idea was born
15:25and where it is right now.
15:27Yeah, so that idea was born during my final year of grad school. My peers were like, you
15:33know, writing some really great papers, giving some really great presentations, but it was
15:37always kind of sad because these great papers would just like be submitted to the professor
15:41and that would be that. Maybe there should be a space for young people to submit their work
15:47on Africa. And because I love the visual arts, you know, I wanted that to include not just,
15:53you know, students, but, you know, young photographers, young artists, young creative
15:57writers. Printing Sunu is almost making a political statement because I peruse my favorite bookshops
16:02all the time, and there is nothing really on Africa on any of those shelves. Like, you know,
16:08there are plenty of journals and magazines on everything under the sun, but there's nothing quite
16:12specifically on Africa. In a way, Sunu is pushing back against this traditional way of learning.
16:21You know, we always learn from like the scholars and the professors or the top curators. And it's
16:25like, you know, young people have, you know, things to say, things to produce, and they should be
16:30recognized and they should participate in the discussions and they should be able to contribute
16:35to the discourses surrounding Africa.
16:37Well, I think what you're proposing is a really important segue for talking a little bit about
16:44cultural appropriation and fashion and style. It's interesting that over the last year or two,
16:49there's been more attention given to different designers or collections that have been drawing
16:57critically, or maybe inappropriately from different cultures and different countries. I would just love
17:03to hear what you think as someone who deeply appreciates fashion style, human rights, global
17:10cultures. You know, what do you think about how we can do a better job of negotiating or really
17:18reconciling cultural appropriation with appreciation?
17:22I understand things like being pinned on a mood board for inspiration, but it's like,
17:28how many mood boards does it take for it to go from like inspiration to straight up cultural
17:34appropriation? It's not a fashion statement. These are cultural things, right? Like these,
17:39there are certain things worn for certain occasions, there are certain meanings, like it's like there
17:45are certain things that serve an importance. And when you're just kind of stripping all of that from
17:50its context and putting it on the runway for it to be consumed by like all the Parisian and English
17:56and
17:56whatever magazines for public consumption, it's just, it's really quite sad. It shows a lack of respect
18:01and it shows a lack of knowledge and a lack of research. If they just kind of extracted maybe one
18:08or two elements of, I don't know, something that they found beautiful or significant from a culture and
18:15wasn't so derivative.
18:16It's like plagiarism.
18:18Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like plagiarism. It's still a form of neocolonialism. The cultural appropriating
18:24of African cultures are still taking from, you know, the continent without permission,
18:28without respect to the people, without paying homage to the culture, without respecting the
18:32culture. I mean, it's still a way of Western privilege. Like if you see the Mona Lisa, you
18:38constantly see it, like whether it's reprinted, you know, it's, it's rephotographed, it starts to
18:43lose its meaning and its aura. It's, you don't feel the sense of amazement, like as, as if you
18:48become numb to it. Exactly. And it's the same thing with cultural appropriation. It's like the
18:54more you extract these things from its context, the more you put it, you know, in some, like,
19:00I remember Aldo was doing years ago, wax print shoes for a long time. I was like, infuriated.
19:07There was a recent Twitter feud, I believe it was on Twitter, between Amandala Stenberg and
19:14Kylie Jenner. Because Kylie Jenner was wearing cornrows, she really took her, took her to task
19:20on, you know, talking about the fact that it was inappropriate for Kylie to be wearing
19:24cornrows because she isn't African American or has no genuine ties to that culture. How do you feel
19:31about that? You know, even in that sort of that kind, that form of appropriation, where do you draw
19:36the line? Things that have an inherent cultural history, I'm against taking that and just boiling
19:42it down and distilling it to just pure aesthetics. Cornrows, that is purely African. That is African,
19:49that's pre-colonial era, that is just, that's in our blood. I will say it's important that Amandala,
19:54someone like Amandala is, is saying, hey, this is where it comes from. This is why it's not okay.
20:00Because I feel like there's a lot of people who just don't know. I don't know if that's Kylie's case,
20:04you know, but there are a lot of people who just don't know and just don't, or maybe don't care.
20:09Drawing from these cultures and interpreting those legacies in different ways, it comes with
20:17a responsibility of sharing the origin story of those details. I heard from you
20:25that you're teaching a class at the new school.
20:28Yes. The title of the course is quite long. It's called The African Gaze, Postcolonial Visual
20:32Culture and the Social Imagination. So it's a course on postcolonial visual culture from African,
20:39Africa, kind of from the 50s, 60s, 70s, and just kind of a way to show this history of Africans
20:50telling their own stories through their own lenses, through their own like perspectives. For a long
20:55time, you know, they've been subjected to colonial photography or colonial film where Africans were
21:01the subject and, you know, mostly considered subaltern and like positioned in a certain way
21:07that, you know, that gaze is very biased. But so this course is focusing on the shifting of that
21:15narrative, like Africans telling their own stories, the social and political economic conditions,
21:21expressing them through film and photography. And yeah, it should be interesting.
21:26Well, it sounds awesome. Thanks.
21:29Amy, it's been such a pleasure having you on UnStyled. Thank you so much for being here.
21:33And good luck with Sunu. I cannot wait to see the first issue.
21:35Thank you so much for having me.
21:55Thank you so much for having me on iTunes and rate us while you're there. You can head to
21:58refinery29.com to find this episode and more and make sure to sign up for our exclusive UnStyled
22:02newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every week. Our show today was produced and edited by
22:08Elisa Kreisinger with production assistance from Rebecca Easley for Refinery29. Copy and research
22:14support provided by Lila Brilsen. Our theme music today is by the artist Koff. Hannes Brown produced our
22:19episode music and we recorded UnStyled with Paul Ruist. We'll see you back here next Monday for a
22:25conversation with Jill Cardman on saying fuck it to fitting in.