- 21 minutes ago
Norma Kamaliâs iconic 50-year fashion career can be attributed to her near-psychic ability to be ahead of the curve. She's also living proof that personal successâand true loveâcan show up at any age.
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00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. The first thing that defines Norma Kamali's iconic fashion career
00:31is her near-psychic ability for being ahead of the curve. She experimented with tech fabrics
00:38in the 70s. She turned the sweatshirt into an everyday garment in the 80s. She was athleisure
00:43before that was even a word. She identified early on as a feminist when women rarely ran
00:48their own companies. And she was one of the first designers to openly discuss the way
00:52your insides affect your outsides. And that internet thing, she was the first designer
00:57to have her own eBay store, ever. The second big thing that defines Norma is that she has
01:03somehow defied the odds Norma Kamali is partial to wearing the same outfit every day in an
01:09industry that is largely built on youth, trends, and the business of newness. She doesn't advertise
01:16or show her collections at Fashion Week. And many of her designs are reinvented versions
01:20of classic silhouettes and ideas she's been playing with for decades. Her clothing still
01:25manages to make it on stage with Beyoncé and into the closets and suitcases of everyone
01:29from Lady Gaga to Yoko Ono. Having just received the CFDA Jeffrey Bean Lifetime Achievement Award
01:35this year, Norma Kamali is a bona fide legend. But she is also living proof that age or trendiness
01:42is not synonymous with achievement or success. At 71, she is more successful, more interesting,
01:48more in-demand and vibrant than ever. She has a rare brand of cool that is defined by reinvention.
01:55And it's safe to say, I want to be just like her when I grow up.
02:02Good morning, Norma.
02:03Good morning.
02:04It's so good to see you.
02:05You too.
02:06I'm sorry you're feeling a little sticky in the head.
02:08I'm fine.
02:09Yeah? Good. Well, you look beautiful.
02:14That's right. Give it a nice, sexy pause. So congratulations on the recent CFDA Jeffrey
02:21Bean Lifetime Achievement Award.
02:24Thank you very much.
02:26It was so amazing to see you and just how extraordinarily beautiful and sexy and confident. And it's just,
02:36I don't know how you do it, but in terms of just reinventing yourself chapter after chapter. Let's talk a
02:43little bit about the beginning, you know, just where Norma came from.
02:46I grew up in a house with a very eccentric, fantastic mother who was difficult because of her eccentric tendencies,
02:59but so talented at the same time that the influence was profound and definitely made a lifetime impression.
03:08I think that more than anything had the biggest impact on everything I do, even today. And had she been
03:19born at another time, she would have been hugely successful because she was also very smart with money, financially very
03:29adept at managing money, managing savings. And she was very impressive.
03:35So how did you make the leap then to sewing yourself and design? Because you were doing it really early
03:40on.
03:41When I was 16, I used to sneak out and go dancing in places where 16 year olds weren't allowed,
03:49but I managed to get myself in.
03:51In New York?
03:52In New York, in New York, and I would sew myself into my pants because I didn't know how to
03:57put a zipper in a pant. So I would just have a needle and thread. And if I went to
04:01the ladies room, I'd have a seam ripper and a needle and thread so I could sew myself back into
04:06my pants because they were very fitted and there was no stretch fabric at the time.
04:13Have you ever told that story before?
04:14I haven't. And I can't believe I'm just telling you now.
04:18That is, first of all, it's dangerous to have a needle and thread in your pocket at a club and
04:24dancing. But that just, and you weren't, did you, were you drinking? I mean, I can only imagine.
04:29No, it was totally sober. There was a place called the Peppermint Lounge, which I'm sure nobody that will hear
04:37this knows about, but it was the place where, it was before disco, and my girlfriend's father, sort of mafia
04:48maybe, owned the place.
04:50And we would sneak in there and dance in between these great shows they had. And we'd have our hair
04:57teased up like three miles high.
05:00And you were wearing pants. No one was probably wearing pants then.
05:03No, no. Then it was early 60s. And so they were very skinny pants and...
05:10Like pedal pushers.
05:11Yep, they were.
05:12But they weren't tight enough for you. You had to make your own.
05:15And they were totally, perfectly fitted.
05:19And made for you.
05:20Excellent.
05:21Your first custom Norma Kamali pieces.
05:24Except for the zipper. So hard, the zipper. I couldn't manage that at all. It was really just...
05:29You've mastered the zipper now.
05:30But also, you're also, like, you still use a lot of, like, lacing and pleating and threading.
05:36So you're probably still not so partial to zippers, huh?
05:39Well, a lot has happened since then.
05:42And, yes. And actually, I didn't want to be a designer and never had a desire to do anything that
05:52had to do with clothes.
05:53Because at that same time, it was Mad Men was really popular.
05:59The Mad Men silhouette.
06:01And I was not good with the matching hat, gloves, shoes, outfit.
06:06And it was very much the time.
06:10And I was, because I was painting all the time, I was always a mess.
06:15My hair was all over the place.
06:16I always had paint all over me.
06:18So I was just not fitting in with the time at all.
06:21And then when I got a scholarship for painting, and I got a scholarship to FIT,
06:27and my mother said, just get the scholarship, go to FIT so you can get a job.
06:32Or I'm putting a lock on the refrigerator door so you can participate in paying some of the bills.
06:39My mother was harsh.
06:40But it was great because it forced me to make a decision about what I was going to do.
06:47And so my original intention was to be a painter and somehow figure out how to get a job doing
06:55something other than typing
06:56and being in sort of the secretarial pool or whatever was available for women at the time.
07:03And I graduated from FIT.
07:05I had a great portfolio.
07:07I think I've told you about my horrible experience with my first job interview.
07:12You've told me, but all the listeners out there haven't heard it.
07:15Well, and I'm sure there are people who will relate to an experience like this.
07:21I went into this office in the Garment Center, and there was a guy with his feet up on his
07:28desk eating a tuna sandwich.
07:30And this is my first job interview.
07:33And I have this huge portfolio thinking it's really great, and I can't wait to get a job.
07:40And he told me to put my portfolio down and come and turn around for him.
07:46And I just sort of went deaf, and this white noise came over me.
07:51And I thought, well, what do I do?
07:53He's the power in the room.
07:55My mother's pressuring me to get this job.
07:57And I turned around, and I was so humiliated that I did that,
08:02that I just gave away my power and turned around for this horrible guy.
08:07So I picked up my portfolio, ran out hysterically crying and very embarrassed.
08:13I haven't told that story until the last couple of years because I'm talking more about objectification and experiences.
08:22So I really kept that secret, and I decided that I just didn't want to work in the garment industry.
08:31I wanted to travel, and I saw an ad in the New York Times classified section.
08:37And there was a job at Northwest Orient Airlines in the office.
08:42Now, I have no skills that relate to any office anything.
08:49And I went in, and it's a miracle that I got the job because I was just so unqualified.
08:55I spent four years in the Northwest Orient offices and decided to be great.
09:03I decided to be really competitive with everyone.
09:05I had the joy of traveling round trip to London every weekend, $29.
09:12And I was in London in the most incredible time possible, the mid-60s to the late 60s.
09:21And it was just me.
09:25The first trip, I saw what was going on.
09:29I just happened to be staying at a boarding house, a friend of mine told me about, in Chelsea.
09:36And there were little pockets of blasts of color like you couldn't see anywhere else in London or anywhere.
09:44I can tell you, every hair on my body, I had just goose pimples.
09:51And I was so taken and excited that I was bursting with joy.
09:58And I said, this is me.
10:00This is, I've just found what I'm about.
10:03You found your people.
10:04I found it completely.
10:06And I was able to go every weekend for four years.
10:09For $29 each ride.
10:11I read that.
10:12So the beauty of it.
10:14The London commute.
10:15Yes.
10:15Yes.
10:16And the beauty of it was, number one, I was learning office skills.
10:20I was learning how to run the things.
10:23I became the head of the tour department, which was huge.
10:27I learned service.
10:29And at the time, you could not get better training for sailing or service.
10:34And I was working behind a UNIVAC computer in the 60s.
10:40So truly, it was so abstract in my mind at the time, but I understood that this computer
10:50was telling me things about what was going on on the plane, how one bit of information
10:57could transfer to another part of an office or another city where the Northwest offices were.
11:07It was just incredible.
11:09So I was very, four years of that was just such a comfort zone for me.
11:15So anything that had to do with computers thereon was of great interest to me.
11:21And I was very grateful for that early experience.
11:24So not only did I have a creative experience in finding my place, finding where I should
11:31be at the very beginning of what was going on in London, but I was on a computer and nobody
11:40knew what I was talking about when I said it.
11:42And I didn't think it was such a big deal because I thought, well, I guess everybody's
11:46doing this.
11:47I had no, you know, what did I know?
11:49I was studying fashion illustration at FIT and painting.
11:54And there I was in this futuristic kind of environment and not realizing that it wasn't
12:01the norm.
12:02And looking back now, I mean, it seems even hearing that story, I got some goosebumps too,
12:09because obviously you can't see it then when you're in it and it's happening to you.
12:15But looking back now, it sounds to me like it was really foreshadowing for you and the
12:20foundation that you laid for your own company.
12:22You said when you took that job at the airline company, you decided you were going to be great.
12:27What does that mean?
12:28How do you decide?
12:29How does one decide to be great?
12:31First of all, the environment was the antithesis of every dream I had.
12:36So it was cubicles with people sitting behind computers and conveyor belts and just headsets
12:49on and just nothing creative at all about it.
12:53And I didn't want to reject it.
12:55I didn't want to harumph my way through it.
12:58I wanted to really accept the fact that this was going to be good for me and I better get
13:05the most out of it.
13:06I didn't know how much I would get out of it, but I thought, and I have a competitive
13:13spirit, so I thought, I want to be the best.
13:16So how do I be the best?
13:19What do I do?
13:20If they liked oranges, I made sure there were oranges in every room they went into.
13:26I would find out about what the color of the drapes were, what kind of bed it was.
13:31I was obsessed with the detail of service because I was so competitive.
13:36I learned from the best that were in the office and there were some amazing, talented people
13:43that could sell and service like you'd never imagine.
13:48From that experience, what kind of advice do you have for women in their 20s that maybe
13:52have to feel as though they have to take this detour?
13:56How do you actually kind of make that detour a part of the main plan?
14:02You know, Christine, it's really rough to give that advice now because it's so different.
14:11I don't know that if I were young now and starting out that I would have the patience to do
14:21that
14:21because everything moves so quickly and most people in their 20s don't stay in jobs.
14:28The majority don't stay in jobs a long period of time.
14:31They want a lot of shorter experiences or freelance experiences and there's a reason for that.
14:38It's a fast-moving time.
14:39It's very different.
14:41So the experience I had and the experience you had may not relate today.
14:47And the only positive information I could pass on that I think still is relatable is that
14:55when you are going from place to place for nine months or six months or however long you
15:02decide to stay to get the feel of that company or the job, I think full immersion is really
15:10important.
15:11Don't not give 150%.
15:15The key is to really just give everything, like really, really give it all so that you
15:22get back a ton.
15:24And so if it's not four years, I mean, four years is a long time and it served my purpose,
15:31but if it is nine months, make sure that experience is so rich and that you've really gotten, you
15:40gave so much.
15:41The only way to get anything back is that you have to give more.
15:45And I think that's what the misunderstanding is when you're younger is that you just want
15:51to get, but you don't get unless you really put a lot into it.
15:56That's good advice.
15:57I want to make sure we circle back around to the experience that you had in the Garment
16:02District.
16:02You started a campaign around the time that you and I first met, called it Stop Objectification.
16:08And it really became a passion pursuit for you in terms of just raising awareness around
16:16how women go through life every day dealing with this scrutiny, all unsolicited.
16:24Tell me a little bit about what the campaign means to you.
16:27The fact that every woman in the world is objectified over and over and over again is really mammoth.
16:38They're horrible enough to have an effect on our performance and our reaching our potential.
16:47And nobody has been talking about these experiences.
16:51It's like, okay, to keep it a secret and it affects our psyche and it affects our behavior
16:56and our self-esteem and body image and everything really is profound.
17:01And it's worldwide.
17:02It's a global phenomena.
17:05That's the biggest secret.
17:06And then I started to ask women after meetings or whatever was going on,
17:12have any of you ever objectified yourself?
17:15Total unanimous.
17:17Yes, we have.
17:18And I believe that it is a unanimous, yes, we have.
17:22The result will come about through men.
17:27And I think men that are educated, if a father knows that his daughter had the experience I had,
17:36he would be so outraged, so upset, so personally involved in what happened
17:45that he then becomes an advocate for women and an advocate for his daughter
17:51and will for sure make sure that his son understands the behavior with women
17:56and would also make sure that his friends, coworkers, speak to women in a different way.
18:03It's not just men doing this to women.
18:08Women do it to women.
18:09We do it to ourselves.
18:11And the fact that we do that tells us a lot about why we need love.
18:17Why do we go to that extreme?
18:19Why do we need a diamond ring that's really big to say,
18:23look at how much I'm loved.
18:24Look at how big my ring is.
18:26He loves me more than anything.
18:29Look at how big the wedding is.
18:31Look at how this fantastic celebration of how much I'm loved.
18:35And if you think about it, it's really, it's a big part of who we are as women.
18:42But the fact that we will allow ourselves to be objectified in the pursuit of that love
18:47is really meaningful.
18:49So whether women objectify women or we objectify ourselves or men objectify us,
18:56the self-esteem issue is huge.
18:58And we have to turn that around so that women are reaching potential
19:04and not feeling less than and not letting industries like the fashion industry
19:11and the beauty industry take advantage of our vulnerable state.
19:16And it just gets me going in a big way.
19:20And a lot of what I'm doing going forward will hopefully help bring awareness
19:26to all of this conversation.
19:46I want to talk about a moment that I had with you.
19:49I was texting with you.
19:50I was at the Rose, no, the Pasadena flea market in California.
19:54And I found a pair of shoes.
19:57They were like these grommet white pumps.
20:00And I took a picture and I texted it to you.
20:03And do you remember what you texted me back?
20:05You said, don't show me that shit.
20:07I hate seeing stuff from the past.
20:09You were really mad at me.
20:11At one point in your life, you were just so tired of having the burden of all of these archives.
20:16And you just got rid of it all.
20:18Can you talk a little bit about that time and just like how it kind of prepared you
20:22for these newer chapters that have kind of unfolded for you?
20:26Well, I think it's important for everybody to take stock of what you have and who you are.
20:35And so I, one day I had the good fortune of buying an incredible home.
20:46And it was the majority of a fantastic townhouse on the Upper East Side just off Fifth Avenue.
20:53And I restored it.
20:57It was part of the Woolworth Estate.
20:59And it was fantastic.
21:00And I was making furniture at the time.
21:03I was making chandeliers at the time and doing all of this stuff and collecting antiques.
21:09And I had a warehouse full of things that I just thought were spectacular, beautiful, and they were.
21:17And then I had my archives and that was 20,000 samples, not to mention an enormous amount of shoes
21:26and tons of stuff.
21:29And I thought about it and my home was so beautiful, but I felt trapped by the beauty in the
21:41oddest way.
21:42If I wanted to create something new, I was so inspired by everything around me that I couldn't get past
21:50the environment.
21:52And I couldn't get past the beauty of a lot of the things that were part of my life.
21:59And so I thought the only way I'm going to have a new idea is I have to get rid
22:06of all of this.
22:07It shouldn't be a part of me going forward.
22:11And I methodically decided to group by group donate things.
22:18And I made a vow that if I ever collected anything again, if it was a book or anything, if
22:30I wasn't using it, then I had to give it away.
22:33So since then, any home I've had looks like nobody lives there.
22:40It's really like a blank palette all the time and a canvas that I can create on.
22:48And I'm inspired in that environment.
22:52So wherever we do live, there's a great view of the river or the sky or trees or environment the
23:03outside is in.
23:04And so that's inspiring to me because it's nature and it's what God created, not something that was purchased or
23:14made.
23:15And I am so happy I did that.
23:19It just freed me up completely.
23:22And freedom is high on my list.
23:25Obviously, having my own company and no partners for all these years means freedom's like top of the list for
23:32me.
23:33So freedom clearly defines who I am in my career and how I look at everything.
23:41Well, speaking of you, you know, owning and running your own business, you and your first husband divorced.
23:48He was your business partner.
23:49He was a student and I was working at the airlines and I started to bring in clothes, sell them.
23:56It developed into clothing I was making.
23:59He was my biggest advocate.
24:01He would put prices on things that would embarrass me.
24:04I think nobody will pay that money.
24:06You just don't know who you are at 19.
24:09We reached a point 10 years into the marriage where we really were off on completely different tangents.
24:17And I left and it was the biggest decision of my life.
24:21I was leaving everything behind, everything that I had just created as Norma Kamali, the designer.
24:30I was 30 and I had $98.
24:33There was a lot of prayer of some meditative type going on.
24:38But I knew that if I didn't leave because the situation was difficult, I would just disintegrate and I would
24:47disappear.
24:48It wouldn't be healthy for me.
24:50So I left and I started my company.
24:54And it was just such a, it was such a joy to realize that I could have my own company
25:00and that I could make this work.
25:03I paid everybody back with, like my mother with her envelopes and I would put all the money every week.
25:11I would pay people back.
25:13And, and, and then I, I had to use on my own as my logo because he stayed in business
25:20and I almost, yeah.
25:21And so it was on my own, Norma Kamali and he was still in business as Kamali.
25:28And, but I see that a lot talking about advice for 30 year old women.
25:32That is a huge, huge, huge time in every woman's life.
25:38It's very meaningful and it creates, um, the first kind of recognition of who you are and who you're going
25:46to be.
25:47The good news is you're young enough to, to, to make those harsh decisions and move forward.
25:54It's very important not to give in to what's the easy solution because you may miss out on a lifetime
26:03that could be very exciting and meaningful.
26:06So 30 is key.
26:08I know a lot of people talk about your age.
26:11You're very open about it.
26:12I think you really love to advocate for just the, the positive side of, of women getting older and not
26:19feeling like our value declines as we get older.
26:22If you're obsessed with looking young, you're going to be defeated.
26:27If you're obsessed with being young, you're going to be defeated.
26:32I think the key is about the spirit.
26:36Being the healthiest version of yourself is the most beautiful version.
26:42You've been with Marty, your partner for six years or seven years now.
26:45I do think there is a certain wisdom and a certain groundedness that you get from being with someone as
26:50you get older and you become more comfortable with yourself.
26:54But what's, what has it been like living with someone, you know, in, in your later years, you know, when
26:59you're sort of established and your habits are kind of yours?
27:02Yeah.
27:03After my first marriage, I, I can't say I ever really envisioned myself married.
27:12I, I, for some reason I didn't, I always thought that I might someday, but I never really had the,
27:21the urge to get married again.
27:23Um, and I realized having my own company, there would be challenges in having relationships because when you're the boss,
27:34you're bossy sort of, I mean, not in the negative sense, but that's the role you have.
27:39People feel comforted by you giving direction or having a goal, a goal set or a path.
27:46So you're used to that kind of dialogue.
27:49And I found myself coming home to relationships through the years where I'd have to switch on a different personality
27:58and not speak in the way I normally would speak.
28:02So I pretend to not be the boss and to be the opposite, which was just so horrific.
28:11So I could never really last that long in a relationship.
28:14I would always just call it off sooner or later because I've had enough of this.
28:19And I didn't really have a thought about how I was going to work that out because there was this
28:26great conflict between my work and having a relationship.
28:29I sort of gave up on the soulmate thing because I figured if I don't have a soulmate by 50,
28:38I don't think they come after 50.
28:41I just don't think there's like a deadline on the soulmate thing.
28:45And then, um, oddly enough, an ex-boyfriend, um, introduced me to Marty.
28:53Ian Schrager.
28:53Yeah, so, but at 65, I meet Marty and my life changed completely in that I understood what that meant
29:04to have a soulmate where you actually have this deep connection with someone and that it can happen at any
29:11age.
29:12There is no deadline on soulmates.
29:14So don't give up.
29:16They come in all shapes and sizes.
29:17Don't give up and if you are a good, nice person and you know somebody that would be a perfect
29:24fit for someone else, I think that's a responsibility we all have.
29:28I think that's the best, best way to, um, create an opportunity for two people to be together.
29:38Norma Kamali, thank you so much for being here on Unstyled.
29:41I hope you'll come back again soon.
29:43I would love to come back again soon.
29:45Thank you very much.
29:48I hope you're inspired after hearing Norma Kamali's story.
29:52For even more Unstyled extras, check out Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick.
29:58You can also join the conversation using the hashtag Unstyled across your social media.
30:02And of course, we'd be super grateful if you'd please subscribe to Unstyled on iTunes and rate us while you're
30:08there.
30:08You can head to Refinery29.com to find this episode and more.
30:12And make sure to sign up for our exclusive Unstyled newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every week.
30:17Our show today was produced and edited by Elisa Kreisinger, with production assistance from Rebecca Easley for Refinery29.
30:25Copy and research support provided by Lila Brilsen.
30:27Our theme music today is by the artist Koff.
30:30Hannes Brown produced our episode music, and we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist.
30:35We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation with Amy Saul on cultural appropriation and preservation.
30:41We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation.
30:41We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation.
30:41We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation.
30:43We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation.
30:43We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation.
30:43We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation.