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Maitland Westbound Overpass in senate estimates.
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00:00We have an update on the current progress of the New England Highway Maitland westbound upgrade, please.
00:27The truth rarely is, Senator Tyrrell.
00:31I didn't do it.
00:39Lock by Kerry, Assistant Secretary.
00:43Just let me pull that up, Senator.
00:52So for that project, Senator, the business case is under development at the moment and it's expected to be completed
01:02in late 2027.
01:03So that business case is looking at the, as you said, the westbound overpass and the Australian Government's committed $100
01:10million to that project.
01:12Okay, so in that case, so the business case obviously hasn't been completed because it's under development.
01:20Do you know when that began?
01:24So there was some strategic design works that were, that commenced in December 2025.
01:31Yeah.
01:33So that was sort of the initial process and then now it's moving into the business case process, which as
01:39I said is due to finish in late 2027.
01:41So has a preferred design been selected or is that going to be determined after the business case is completed?
01:47So that's part of the business case is looking at what the optimal solution is.
01:53Okay, thank you.
01:54On the 20th of March 2025, following the coalition's $100 million commitment, the member for Patterson, Meryl Swanson said, and
02:04I quote,
02:04they're standing up sort of making a promise that to my understanding hasn't been properly costed and doesn't have a
02:10plan, end quote.
02:12At the time that Ms Swanson made those comments, what planning or costing advice had the Albanese Government itself commissioned
02:20or received from Transport for New South Wales, to your knowledge?
02:28It's probably not a level of information that I'll have, Senator.
02:32I guess what I can say is that the Australian Government made a commitment to that $100 million commitment.
02:39The planning work is underway and that is part of that planning work is looking at the outcome, what is
02:48going to be constructed and the cost of doing so.
02:50I think that's consistent with evidence that I gave at previous 10 estimates hearings.
02:55So in relation to my specific question, is that level of detail something you're able to get for me today
03:01or is that something that can be provided on notice instead?
03:05Well, I guess it was a level... Can I just clarify what your question is and what you would like?
03:12My question was on the 20th of March, 2025, when Ms Swanson said that the coalition's $100 million commitment was
03:21uncosted and did not have any plan, whether or not the Albanese Government itself, at that point in time, had
03:30commissioned or received any
03:33any planning or costing advice from Transport for New South Wales?
03:38I can take on notice what the department had at that point in time.
03:43I want to draw your attention to page 81 of documents released under FOI 26-110 and I would like
03:54to table that now.
03:56The department identifies a record dated the 27th of March, 2025, described as a formal PFO 2025 decision from the
04:08PM.
04:09Are you able to tell me whether that decision included the $100 million commitment to the Maitland flyover?
04:17I'll need to see the document that you're referring to. What was the FOI in relation to, Senator?
04:23So the FOI was in relation to this specific project.
04:33Have you got a copy?
04:35No.
04:36We should afford the office as a copy if you're referring to it, Senator.
04:41Yeah, I've asked for it to be taken.
04:43Okay, thank you.
05:12So I've got the page in front of me,
05:13Senator. Could you please repeat the question?
05:16Yes, so it relates to item number 8.
05:19So the page is numbered 81 of 95.
05:23And the department identifies a record on the 27th of March,
05:28described as a formal PFO 2025 decision from the PM.
05:34And I would like to understand whether that decision included the $100 million commitment to the Maitland flyover.
05:42So, Senator, this has a PII grounds attached to it.
05:48So it's got public immunity.
05:50So we'd have to take that on notice and have a conversation with the Minister in regards to how we
05:55best answer your question.
05:58And that's something that I thought about.
06:00But the next line, item 9, relates to correspondence on exactly the same date, noting PII ground of Cabinet deliberations.
06:10But the additional information says PM to Minister King.
06:16So the Prime Minister has written to the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister has written to the Minister on that
06:22date.
06:23That's not PII grounds applicable to that given it's a letter from the Prime Minister to the relevant Minister.
06:30It might be the finalisation of the Cabinet process.
06:34So it might be the finalisation of the hunting licence process.
06:37Well, can we find out?
06:38We'll find out and come back to you.
06:39And if not, that's a document that can be supplied to us, a copy of that letter?
06:43We'll come back to you.
06:45Okay.
06:47Are you able to tell me what project-specific costing advice supported that decision?
06:53These are all part of, at the moment, from what I can tell from the information that you've tabled,
06:59all looks like they are all ERC budget decisions.
07:03So we'll work out what we can tell you and come back to you.
07:06On notice?
07:07Yes.
07:07Thank you very much.
07:08Could you tell me whether the Government received a construction cost estimate from Transport for New South Wales
07:14in relation to this?
07:15And if so, when and what that estimate was?
07:17So I think that's in regards to the conversation and the questions that you asked Mr. Potockeri previously.
07:24I am very conscious that they are going through a business case process and a strategic assessment
07:31at the moment which will actually determine what will be the scope of what is to be built.
07:37And I'm presuming that they will build within that $100 million.
07:40So we will come back to you with all of that information.
07:42Yeah, but my specific question is not about where it is now.
07:45What I'm interested in is at the time of that announcement whether the Government had in fact received anything from
07:52the New South Wales Government.
07:53So we will find out all of that for you, Senator.
07:57And my next question relates to that so you may have a similar answer.
08:01Between Ms. Swanson's comments on the 20th of March, where she said the Coalition hadn't costed this and this is
08:09perhaps airy-fairy,
08:10and the decision from the Government seven days later on the 27th of March,
08:14was any additional costing or planning work completed to inform the Government's commitment to your knowledge,
08:21or to the Department's knowledge?
08:24We will have to take that one on, I guess, as well, but we will come back to you online.
08:28Okay, thank you.
08:28So we do not have that information at hand today?
08:32No.
08:33Okay, thank you.
08:35I now have document B to table, if that is okay.
08:42And it is turning to page 17 of that FOI, where on the 31st of March 2025,
08:50the Department was preparing PFO wording for the $100 million flyover commitment on the 31st of March.
08:58Can you tell me what supporting project cost information infrastructure provided to the Department of Finance for that?
09:07If we could table that.
09:08Oh, they are all out.
09:09Oh, thank you.
09:09Wonderful.
09:11So that is the page number 17 of 95.
09:15Mr Senator, we might take that on notice as well.
09:18So I think the information that you have tabled that was part of the FOI was around finalising details for
09:25the PFO.
09:28Correct.
09:29Yep.
09:30So I think that is around finalising wording for the PFO document.
09:34I think your question goes to costing information, which I will take on notice.
09:39Correct.
09:40So was there any costing information additionally during that one week period or up until that point on the 31st
09:47of March that was provided before that wording was completed?
09:50And I'll take that on notice as well, consistent with the previous responses.
09:54Okay.
09:55Between the commencement of caretaker on the 28th of March and the election on the 3rd of May, were any
10:02new major decisions, contracts or undertakings authorised for this project beyond the routine admin and the preparation of PFO?
10:12So the State Government, the New South Wales Government is responsible for contracting for this project.
10:20So from a Commonwealth perspective, there is no contracting related to this project.
10:25The New South Wales Government is the lead agency.
10:29So my question was major new decisions, contracts or undertakings authorised.
10:34So any other of those in relation to Federal Government commitments during that period?
10:40Related specifically to this project?
10:42Correct.
10:42To this project specifically.
10:45I think the answer is no, and I'll come back to you if that's not the case.
10:49If you could confirm on notice.
10:50The answer is no.
10:52On the 7th of April, 2025, the Government announced its $100 million commitment, stating that early investigation work had been
11:00completed by Transport for New South Wales.
11:03What work had been completed by that date, to your knowledge, and what work remained outstanding?
11:11What was the date that you mentioned?
11:13Sorry, Senator.
11:13The 7th of April, 2025.
11:18I might have to come back to you on that one on notice, Senator.
11:21Okay.
11:23On that same...
11:25The work that had been done is some traffic modelling that had previously been undertaken as part of a strategic
11:32business case that the New South Wales Government had undertaken.
11:36I think that was the work that had been undertaken prior to that.
11:41Okay.
11:42So, to your knowledge, that's the only work, but if it's any different, you'll let us know.
11:46And no costing attached to that, just traffic management?
11:50I don't think there was a costing in that particular document.
11:53Okay.
11:54If you could confirm that for us.
11:55Yeah.
11:56Or any other documents that were held at that point in time.
11:59On the same day, Minister King said the Government had worked with New South Wales to arrive at the $100
12:04million figure, and was confident it would fund construction.
12:09So, that same day was the 7th of April, 2025.
12:13What advice from New South Wales supported that assessment?
12:18I think that goes to the question that we took on notice previously, Senator.
12:23Okay.
12:24So, you'll confirm that on notice?
12:25Yes, we will.
12:26On the 8th of May, 2025, five days after the Federal election, Ms. Swanson told NBN News that, and I
12:35quote, the planning work has been done, and I've already commenced negotiations and discussions with the State Minister and also
12:41Transport for New South Wales, end quote.
12:44Could you confirm for me what planning work had actually been completed by the 8th of May, 2025?
12:55No, I'll need to take that on notice.
12:56I think, given the specifics of the dates that you're giving us, we'll probably have to take, as opposed to
13:03generic.
13:05Well, it was about five days after the election.
13:08Yeah.
13:08Yeah.
13:09So, very close to the election.
13:12Given the election was on a Saturday, so we had Sunday, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, so Thursday after the election.
13:18So, in terms of proximity to the new government being formed.
13:26Could you tell me whether the department had advised Minister King or Ms. Swanson that planning was complete at roughly
13:33that point in time?
13:38I'd want to check to come back to you to be certain, Senator, so I'll take that on notice.
13:43Of course.
13:44Would it be likely or unlikely, or you'd prefer not to speculate?
13:47I don't want to speculate.
13:48I'm also just conscious that you're referring to some comments that I don't have in front of me and some
13:53sequencing,
13:54so I just want to make sure I get the right answers to you, Senator.
13:56Of course.
13:58So, then I go to Table C in the Table Documents.
14:03Sorry, Document C in the Table Documents.
14:05I want to draw your attention to the FOI determination on this project,
14:11which identifies seven pages of steering committee minutes dated on the 8th of May, 2025, and that's line item 11.
14:21Are you able to tell me what the purpose of that meeting was and who attended that meeting?
14:28I'll have to make that last question.
14:30I have a supplementary to that and then I'll thank you.
14:34Thank you, Chair.
14:35I will come back to you on that, Senator, given that the information was refused.
14:41I just want to make sure that I'm being consistent with the decision under the FOI Act for that,
14:49so I'll come back to you on that one, I'll notice.
14:50The other thing, and this is my supplementary to that that concerns me about this schedule of documents,
14:56is we have item 11 says steering committee minutes with seven pages of documents,
15:02but nowhere in that schedule is It Time 11 says steering committee minutes,
15:07with seven pages of documents.
15:09But nowhere in that schedule is It Time 11 says steering committee minutes with
15:14You
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