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India wants greater strategic autonomy, but its dependence on Chinese imports, weak job creation and an IT sector exposed to AI raise doubts about whether economic scale can become lasting power.
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00:00India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi is walking a tightrope.
00:03On the one hand, he wants to work with the West.
00:06On the other, his government sees India's goal as advancing the priorities of the Global
00:10South.
00:11But there are some challenges.
00:13India has struggled to become a manufacturing giant, its companies still rely heavily on
00:18Chinese imports, and AI threatens parts of its enormous IT industry.
00:23Can India turn its size and diplomacy into real economic power?
00:28Or is China standing in its way?
00:30Welcome to The Dip, your podcast for money, power and consequences.
00:34I'm Daniel.
00:37And joining me now is Ajay Chiba, a former Assistant UN Secretary General leading its development
00:43work in Asia.
00:44And he also headed up a body in India scrutinising the government's development programmes.
00:50And Jayati Ghosh is a professor of economics and has advised the United Nations bodies on
00:56development and globalisation.
00:57Ajay Jayati, welcome to The Dip.
01:01Ajay, I'd like to start with you, first of all.
01:03You started your career before India's economic reforms of 1991.
01:09What is something from early on in your career that you would say a young Indian today would
01:14find impossible to imagine, given the development that's happened in that time?
01:18Well, you know, we grew up in a time when the economy was, it was a very closed economy where
01:28there were very shortage of almost everything from, well, by this time we had probably reasonable
01:40amount of food, although India had faced famines before, but, you know, a lot of the goods that we take
01:45for granted today, cars, mobile phones, things like that, were in very short supply.
01:54So, massive changes in that time period.
01:56Massive changes, yeah.
01:58Absolutely.
01:58It's just impossible to imagine, yeah.
02:01And Jayati, 20 years ago, you travelled through Andhra Pradesh, talking to farmers in crisis.
02:06What was it that stuck in your mind from that trip that kind of shaped your thinking about India, India's
02:15economy, and where it's going with its globalisation and its growth?
02:21Well, that's a very interesting question, because it kind of also fits into what Ajay was saying.
02:27I would add, Ajay, the big change I see in our lives is connectivity, and that's true of every Indian,
02:33you know, the dramatic expansion of connectivity, which we really didn't have earlier.
02:38But the Andhra Pradesh experience, exactly 20 years ago, in fact, is kind of telling, because it shows us how
02:47global integration and the availability of new goods and new services and all of that kind of thing are very
02:54important.
02:54But if they're unequally distributed, they can lead to all kinds of problems.
03:00Of course, the inequalities that emerge, but also they can inhibit future development.
03:05And I think that is what came up very clearly for us when we were going around the villages of
03:11Andhra Pradesh at that time.
03:13But it's true today as well, which is that a lot of the benefits of that growth are not getting
03:18to the vast majority of our people.
03:21And we'll make sure to touch on that later.
03:22Let's start at the beginning with the big international globalising element of all of this, Ajay.
03:29India talks about needing strategic autonomy, its place in BRICS, speaking for the Global South as well.
03:37So, put simply, what kind of geoeconomic power does India want to become?
03:44So, I think, you know, we had a very famous industrialist, Jamshed Tata.
03:51He said it so well.
03:53He's the man they produced.
03:55They were the first steel factory.
03:56They had the company that had the first airline.
04:00So, this was a major industrialist.
04:03And he was asked what he would like to see India as.
04:07And he said, I don't want it to be an economic superpower.
04:11I want it to be a happy country.
04:13But willy-nilly, in the end, I don't know whether India will be a happy country for all the reasons
04:20that Jayati just mentioned,
04:22this kind of lopsided development, jobless growth.
04:27But it certainly will be a very significant economic power.
04:32It's already the sixth largest economy in the world.
04:37And by 2030s, early 2030s, it will probably be the third largest.
04:43We'll pick up on that in a moment.
04:45But I first want to put your point across to Jayati.
04:50Because do you see that, Jayati, that connection between these big level BRICS and Global South and the happiness of
04:57the ordinary person in India?
05:00Do you see that this development, this expansion, and India taking a leading role on that, do you think that
05:07in the end that is going to benefit the average person?
05:11Or are these operating at just completely different levels?
05:15I think there's a big difference between potential and what could happen.
05:20And I personally believe that we have immense potential.
05:24I mean, there's no question about it, and Ajay has mentioned.
05:26And, you know, if you just allow for a sort of reasonable growth path, even three to four to five
05:33percent, over time, over decades, yes, that will lead to a large economy.
05:38But it's not just about happiness.
05:40It is about the fact that a very unequal economy in which the vast majority of your population does not
05:47even have basic needs, let's be honest, does not fulfill the minimal human development indicators.
05:52That economy is not one that will be domestically vibrant.
05:56And I think, therefore, we really have to have a change in economic strategy.
06:01If we do that, yes, the potential is absolutely immense.
06:05But I want to emphasize that the strategy has got to be different from that of the past.
06:10So, when Prime Minister Modi talks about wanting to be the Global South's resounding voice, does this feel to you
06:17like a distraction from focusing on the things that need fixing inside the Indian economy?
06:22Or do you think that somehow these can link together?
06:26As I said, the potential is there.
06:28I think, honestly, Mr. Modi is in a dreamland if he thinks that we are the voice of the Global
06:35South.
06:36Because, let's face it, India has lost a lot of credibility internationally with other developing countries.
06:42Our foreign policy has been rather problematic.
06:45I mean, Ajay mentioned that, you know, we had got closer to the US, but we've also got closer to
06:49Israel.
06:50We've taken a terrible position on Palestine, which has been noticed by other countries.
06:55We have often not even allowed the most minimal kinds of statements to be made, even in the BRICS last
07:03year in Brazil, in the BRICS meeting, and in a whole range of others.
07:06I was at the G20 meeting in South Africa, and I met a number of the delegations.
07:10And, you know, really, there is a sense of real disquiet in the developing world about the positions India is
07:17taking.
07:18So, I think there is a moral role that India played, which is playing much less today.
07:23There is an economic heft role, which there's a potential, but at the moment, let's face it, we don't have
07:28it.
07:29There is a strategic role.
07:33And here again, we have lost ground.
07:35We can recover, for sure, but we have lost ground in the last few years.
07:39There's no question.
07:40All right.
07:40So, there's plenty of potential to catch up, but whether it actually pursues that is another matter and depends on
07:46the decision makers and what they have to say.
07:49But, Ajay, I just want to turn to China now.
07:52When it comes to this idea of global leadership, which is – or leadership of the global south, which is
07:59what Modi expresses as one of his goals,
08:02you know, China has been going around offering countries ports and roads and the money to build them, or at
08:08least the debt to build them.
08:10What can India offer when it comes to this leadership, if that is the direction that the economy should be
08:18going when it's talking about expanding and globalization?
08:22Yeah.
08:23I mean, China has, of course, played its hands very well.
08:27What people don't realize is that China is also, through its huge imbalances in its trade, imposing a very large
08:39cost on a large number of, of course, developed countries,
08:43countries, but also developing countries, because of its mercantilist sort of policies, it has doubled down on, after COVID, on
08:54running very large export surpluses.
08:57And these are not just surpluses to Europe and Germany, which are feeling the effect of all this, and to
09:04the United States, but it's also to a very large number of developing countries.
09:10The word that Danny Roderick, an economist at Harvard, uses is premature de-industrialization.
09:18So what we are witnessing in much of the developing world, because of China's policies, is premature de-industrialization,
09:28that the ladder of development that the developing countries were to follow, which is, you know, go from agriculture to
09:37manufacturing services,
09:40the traditional ladder that China followed, and Korea followed, and other countries followed, that ladder is being pulled away because
09:50of China's policies.
09:52Can you explain that in more detail? Like, what policies here are putting pressure on India?
09:57What is the relationship between China and India at the moment? It's been tense for a while.
10:03Yeah. So, of course, on the border, China basically wants to be the preeminent power in Asia.
10:13The only other country which has the size and heft that can be a bit of a challenge to China,
10:20of course, we are far away from it now, but can be potentially, at least, is India.
10:26So, China is not going to be very happy with the rise of India, which is why India had earlier
10:35thought it would shift with the United States.
10:37But the United States itself has now said it doesn't want to see India's rise either,
10:42because the mistake they made with China, they don't want to make with India.
10:47But anyway, that's another point that we can get into.
10:52But India can project itself as a more comfortable, a more responsible, and more open power in the Global South.
11:09It will take effort.
11:10Now, you must recognize that at the G20 meeting, which India chaired,
11:16India got the African Union a membership of the G20.
11:22So, as a bloc, the African Union now sits at the G20.
11:29So, there are ways in which India can play an important role,
11:34especially now on climate change and climate justice.
11:38Right.
11:38You see what's happening in Nepal.
11:40I mean, things can be done that India can play an important role at.
11:43Speaking of the role that India can play, I would like to bring in Jayati.
11:47I was just about to say, what's your take on this?
11:50You know, I have to push back a little bit.
11:53Deindustrialization in the Global South is not China's fault.
11:56It happened well before China emerges as a major manufacturing power.
11:59In Latin America, it begins in the 1990s.
12:02Actually, in the late 1980s.
12:04You know, the last decade is when it starts in Latin America.
12:06Similarly, in the whole of Africa and in large parts of Asia,
12:11it was really the period of globalization that did it because we opened up trade
12:15and we didn't have the economies of scale in manufacturing
12:17that would allow us to actually be competitive.
12:21But look, Jayati, do you agree with his point?
12:26No, I think we made a mistake.
12:27But now, talking about these days, do you think there's an unfair playing field
12:31between India and China when it comes to trade
12:35and that China is too much of a blocker and wants to send its goods into India
12:39but won't take them in return?
12:41Do you agree with that point?
12:41This is the nature of trade.
12:43The one who has the economies of scale, the one who is cheaper,
12:46is going to be able to sell.
12:47And that is what has been happening, right?
12:49They have massive economies of scale.
12:51They have done that through their own industrial policy.
12:54They have done that by regulating trade until they could benefit from it.
12:58Absolutely.
12:59There's no question about that.
13:00But is it that China is purposely saying we will not buy Indian goods?
13:04No, it is Indian strategy that has been at a fault here.
13:08For example, you mentioned pharmaceuticals.
13:10We used to have the most vibrant pharmaceutical industry in the world.
13:15We used to be the biggest producer and exporter of active pharmaceutical ingredients.
13:21We are now importing 85% of those from China,
13:24not because China is forcing them to us.
13:27No, we closed down our public sector units
13:29for producing those.
13:30We did not encourage domestic production of APIs.
13:34We thought it was easier to just import it from China.
13:36Whose fault is that?
13:38To say that China will not accept our drugs,
13:40that's, again, not true.
13:42It's really the case that most of our drugs
13:45are produced more cheaply in China.
13:47If you look at the relative prices,
13:49they are cheaper
13:50because they're also, by the way,
13:52producing those APIs, as I mentioned,
13:54which are the things that are made into formulations.
13:56So, you know, this idea that there is this whole Machiavellian thing.
14:01Look, it's the economies of scale playing out in global trade.
14:04So, this idea, of course, they are benefiting massively from it.
14:08Of course, they are.
14:09But the fact that we are not able to deal with it
14:12shows a failure of our policies.
14:15Let's clear Ajay's counter-response here.
14:16China has very good industrial policy
14:19and it's very competitive.
14:21But at the same time,
14:23if China has all of that,
14:25why does it need to manipulate its currency?
14:29Even the IMF says
14:31that China's currency is overvalued,
14:36undervalued, sorry,
14:37by 20%,
14:3822% undervalued.
14:40So, if China has all these advantages
14:44of competitiveness and industrial policy,
14:47why on top of all that
14:49does it need to impose a tax
14:53on the rest of the world
14:54through a very undervalued currency?
14:57So, it's a currency manipulator, number one.
15:00Number two,
15:01if India is able to sell pharmaceuticals
15:04all over the world,
15:06India is considered
15:07the pharmacy of the world.
15:10It's the one area
15:11where it has a comparative advantage.
15:14Everybody is buying Indian drugs.
15:16How is it that
15:17we are not able to sell them in China?
15:20That's my point.
15:21So, China is,
15:23I say if China has
15:25very strong industrial policy,
15:28is very competitive,
15:29fine, then let's compete.
15:31But then if you put a 20%
15:35currency undervaluation on top of that,
15:37how is anybody else
15:38going to compete with China?
15:40It's also a common complaint
15:41from Europe that day.
15:42I'm sorry,
15:42I just sound...
15:43Yeah.
15:44Yeah, this is also
15:45the European argument,
15:46but basically everybody
15:47is following Donald Trump in this
15:48and they've lost sight of economics.
15:51But, Jaiety, I will...
15:52Can I just make this point?
15:54Okay.
15:54May I make just this point?
15:56That, you know,
15:56this idea of currency valuation,
15:59undervaluation,
15:59how is it measured?
16:00To the extent
16:01of your current account balance.
16:03You have a current account surplus
16:04that can only exist
16:06if your currency is undervalued.
16:08You have a current account deficit,
16:09you're presumably overvalued.
16:11That's really how it's done.
16:12So, this, you know,
16:14you're putting the cart
16:15before the horse.
16:16So, I am not disputing
16:18that certainly the Chinese
16:20tried to regulate
16:21their currency.
16:22So do we.
16:22Okay?
16:23So do we.
16:24So do most countries
16:25in the world
16:26because, in fact,
16:27you cannot have a free-for-all
16:28in currency markets.
16:29But I do point out
16:31that they happen
16:32to be the cheapest
16:33and I keep them,
16:34it's economies of scale.
16:35They are producing
16:36at scales that are so large
16:38that per unit costs
16:39are incredibly.
16:40But Jayati,
16:41then what should India's reaction be?
16:42We are not able to sell drugs
16:43to one another.
16:44What should India's reaction
16:46be in this case?
16:47Because the common story
16:48that's told is that
16:49India wanted to work
16:51with the West,
16:52with the United States.
16:53It's then been hit
16:54unfairly with these tariffs
16:55as is much of the world
16:57to various extents.
16:59And that's pushing India
17:01to making up
17:02and being friends
17:03with China
17:04even if it's not necessarily
17:05the position
17:06that Narendra Modi
17:07would like to go in.
17:08He's being nudged
17:09in that direction.
17:10So Jayati,
17:11would you say that
17:11that is the right perspective
17:13that Modi
17:15should be warming up
17:16to China
17:16trying to
17:17for that relationship
17:18trying to increase trade
17:20or does that just
17:20increase new dependencies?
17:22What would you say?
17:23No.
17:24You know,
17:24the period when we were
17:25not friendly with China,
17:27the period when we had
17:28banned TikTok
17:28and all these other apps
17:30and etc.
17:30And when poor
17:31Northeasterners
17:32who happened to look
17:33a little Chinese
17:34were being attacked
17:34on the streets of India,
17:36that period is when
17:37our trade deficit
17:39with China
17:39more than tripled.
17:41So, you know,
17:42Narendra Modi
17:43may have been making
17:43noises against China,
17:45but the economic reality
17:47was very different
17:48in that period.
17:48At the moment,
17:50we are very,
17:51very closely intertwined
17:52and very dependent
17:53on China.
17:54We have an extremely
17:55large trade deficit
17:56which is ballooning
17:57every year.
17:58We have,
17:59as Ajay mentioned,
18:00a border conflict
18:01which we are
18:02trying to resolve
18:03but from a position
18:04of weakness
18:05rather than strength.
18:06And we have
18:07a lot of concerns
18:08about the fact
18:09that China does have
18:10a very expansionist
18:11approach to Asia
18:13in general.
18:13So, yes,
18:14we have all these concerns.
18:15We need to handle them.
18:17We cannot handle them
18:18unless we put
18:19our own house in order,
18:20I believe.
18:21So, it's one thing
18:22to just blame China
18:23and then, you know,
18:24have sort of
18:25hysterical fits
18:26about how you're
18:26undervaluing currency
18:27and you're being unfair
18:28and manipulative
18:29which, you know,
18:30it's fine if the Europeans
18:31do it but it's not.
18:33Let's admit that
18:34countries are doing this.
18:35They're not the first
18:36and they're not the last.
18:38We have to be able
18:39to deal with this
18:39through our own
18:41trade and industrial policies
18:42that identify our strengths,
18:44that protect the industries
18:46that need protecting,
18:47that enable public investment
18:49in the areas
18:49that have to happen
18:50and make us competitive.
18:52I'd like to move
18:53the conversation
18:54to focus on India's economy
18:55specifically now
18:56and I think that actually
18:57links into that
18:58quite neatly.
18:59I mean, what India
19:00has managed to do
19:01extraordinarily
19:02is expand in its
19:04IT industry,
19:05for example.
19:06Internal but also
19:08outsourcing for
19:09other countries abroad,
19:10it's massively increased
19:12in that.
19:12It's also exported
19:13lots of talent
19:14around the world
19:15when it comes to IT
19:16leading some of the
19:17big Silicon Valley
19:18companies.
19:19How did it manage
19:20to achieve that
19:21in IT, Ajay?
19:22But why has it struggled
19:23when it's come to
19:24expanding manufacturing?
19:26Very different industries
19:27but that was also
19:28supposed to be
19:29one of the cornerstones
19:30of a growth strategy
19:31for India.
19:31Why has it struggled there, Ajay?
19:34Yeah, I mean,
19:35I wrote a whole book
19:36actually on this,
19:37on the lopsided
19:39structural transformation
19:40of India
19:41and we identified
19:44five factors.
19:45one is labour laws
19:48and land policies
19:50and I can go into
19:52more detail
19:53if you like.
19:54We won't have time
19:54for all five in detail,
19:56I'm afraid.
19:56Yeah, okay.
19:58So, land and labour
19:59is two things
20:01where we have made
20:04land very costly
20:07and made it very difficult
20:09to hire labour,
20:10actually.
20:12One of our prime ministers
20:13said India's labour policies
20:16are actually anti-labour.
20:18And then we have
20:20the cost of doing business,
20:21the kind of things
20:22which make you
20:23less competitive.
20:24Now, this affects
20:27manufacturing far more
20:28than it affects services
20:29because services,
20:30you know,
20:31you don't need too much land,
20:32you don't need to move goods,
20:35you don't need,
20:35freight costs don't matter,
20:37your port system
20:38doesn't matter,
20:39your petrol and diesel prices
20:41don't matter as much.
20:43So, India was able then
20:44to compete very effectively
20:47in the IT sector
20:50which it was not been able
20:51to do in the manufacturing sector
20:53which is why you have
20:54this whole situation
20:55of lopsided growth.
20:57So, outside of this
20:58knowledge work sector
21:00which often requires
21:01university degree
21:02or specialised training,
21:04Jayati, what is the route
21:05to having economic security
21:07for someone who doesn't
21:08have a university degree
21:09in India at the moment?
21:12Well, at the moment,
21:13in fact,
21:14even those with university degrees
21:15are not going to get jobs
21:16and that's why we've had
21:17youth protests
21:18all over the country
21:19in the last couple of months.
21:21I think there was,
21:23even with respect to IT,
21:25there was one basic
21:26mistake we made
21:27which is that we focused
21:28entirely on software
21:29rather than hardware.
21:30And that was a mistake
21:32in retrospect
21:32because so much software
21:34is now embedded
21:35in hardware.
21:36But I would argue
21:37that there is a broader
21:38economic strategy issue
21:40that we need to consider
21:42and that it's still
21:43not too late
21:44to take that seriously
21:45which is that
21:46we have to focus
21:47on the medium,
21:48small and micro industries.
21:50That's where,
21:51as I mentioned,
21:5285% of employment
21:53currently is
21:54both in agriculture
21:55and in non-agriculture,
21:57both industry and services.
21:58When we think
21:59of industrial policy,
22:00we're always thinking
22:00of the big guys,
22:01large capital,
22:02you know,
22:02the big conglomerates,
22:04the big cronies
22:05and we're hoping
22:06that somehow
22:06giving them incentives
22:08and subsidies
22:09and tax breaks,
22:10etc.
22:10will trickle down.
22:12We know that
22:12that doesn't work.
22:13It hasn't worked
22:14and we also know
22:15that that has denied
22:16even basic consumption demand.
22:19So what needs to change
22:20to improve
22:21the circumstances?
22:22Because there's a large
22:23amount of people
22:24in India,
22:25a big chunk
22:25of the amount of workers
22:27who are working
22:27in agriculture,
22:30that is measured
22:31as being low productivity
22:33so it doesn't contribute
22:34as much
22:35to the overall growth.
22:37There's also
22:37a very large
22:38informal sector
22:39in workers
22:40as you mentioned.
22:41So what needs
22:43to be done
22:43in order to support
22:44these people
22:46to perhaps
22:46move into
22:47more productive work
22:49in terms of economic growth
22:51to improve
22:51their life circumstances
22:53and as Adjay said earlier,
22:54to improve
22:55their happiness
22:56overall
22:56and comfort?
22:58So what needs
22:59to be done,
22:59Jayati,
23:00to get us there?
23:02I would say
23:03it's a two-promp strategy.
23:05One,
23:06as I mentioned,
23:07is a focus
23:07on the small,
23:08micro,
23:08and medium enterprises,
23:09a package.
23:10That is credit,
23:11access to technology,
23:13access to inputs,
23:14assistance in marketing,
23:15the works
23:16on the same rates
23:17that you're giving
23:18large capital.
23:19Not even better rates,
23:20just the same rates.
23:21That's the first prong.
23:22The second prong
23:23is a dramatic increase
23:24in basic public services.
23:27Universal,
23:27good quality public services,
23:30health,
23:30education,
23:30nutrition,
23:31sanitation,
23:32you know,
23:32all of those things
23:33in a green way.
23:35And that,
23:36again,
23:37is something
23:37we have massively
23:38underprovided.
23:39It means a significant
23:40increase in public spending
23:42in all of these areas,
23:43which is also
23:44very employment generating.
23:46So essentially,
23:48these two prongs
23:48would make
23:50employment generation
23:51a central goal of policy,
23:52but it would also
23:53make quality
23:53of employment better,
23:54it would improve
23:55quality of life,
23:56the happier society,
23:57and it would generate
23:58a bubble-up growth
23:59rather than a trickle-down growth.
24:01Okay.
24:02And Ajay,
24:03I just want to touch on
24:04what Jayati was saying
24:05about these IT companies
24:08and that there's a lot
24:09invested in software.
24:10The key vulnerability
24:11that comes from
24:12having invested a lot
24:13in software
24:14rather than hardware
24:15or alongside hardware
24:16is this threat of AI
24:18entering prominence.
24:20You can imagine already
24:21a lot of outsourcing
24:23work that was
24:24taken up
24:25by these Indian companies
24:27and they performed
24:28very well
24:29is starting to be replaced
24:30in part by AI
24:32and it's leaving
24:34some Indian firms
24:35on the back foot.
24:37Alternatively,
24:37they could try to
24:39get in on the AI game
24:41themselves,
24:42but it's quite dominated
24:43by these Silicon Valley firms,
24:45including in the infrastructure.
24:47So, Ajay,
24:47what do you see
24:48as the route forward
24:49then for the IT industry,
24:50which has been so crucial
24:52in giving India
24:54its economic growth
24:55as of late?
24:57Yeah, I mean,
24:58you're absolutely right.
24:59I think the vulnerability
25:01in IT is now
25:03with AI
25:04is very apparent.
25:07Whether it will end up,
25:10you know,
25:11really doing
25:13very serious,
25:14I mean,
25:14you're already seeing
25:16the hiring has gone down.
25:18In fact,
25:19a lot of the IT
25:22outsourcing companies
25:23were also starting
25:24to lay off,
25:25but they're also
25:26adopting AI,
25:28you know,
25:29in a more strategic way
25:31to be able
25:33to provide
25:34a better platform,
25:36if you like,
25:37at a much cheaper price
25:40than is still available
25:42in a large part
25:44of the global markets
25:46in which they operate.
25:48So,
25:49you're seeing
25:49some of that also.
25:51And I was at
25:53the Global AI Summit
25:55earlier this year
25:56in India,
25:59and that was the play
26:01that the Indian side
26:02is trying to make,
26:03that we may not be
26:05in these large-scale
26:07models
26:08that the United States
26:09and now China
26:10are beginning
26:11to dominate,
26:12but there is a lot
26:14that can be done
26:16at a smaller
26:17AI model scale
26:23with adoption
26:24and adaptation
26:25to problem-solving
26:28that India
26:29can play a role in.
26:30Now,
26:31whether this will all
26:32play out
26:33very positively,
26:34I think this is all
26:35in play at the moment.
26:38But, you know,
26:39that's the future.
26:40And what I see now
26:42with this cockroach party
26:43of the young
26:44that has revolted
26:46against the economic model
26:48and the education model
26:50that Jayati so rightly mentioned,
26:52I think that gives me hope
26:55that, you know,
26:56a democratic system
26:58has the capacity
26:59to then be able
27:02to raise voices
27:03that shift course.
27:05Yeah,
27:05I think that's a fantastic
27:06place to end that.
27:09But Jayati,
27:10I'd just like to ask you
27:11to look forward as well
27:12and kind of jump on that.
27:14In,
27:15let's say,
27:1610 years' time,
27:16five years,
27:1710 years' time,
27:18what would have to be different
27:20in the life
27:21of an ordinary person
27:22in India
27:23for you to say
27:24that the economic strategy
27:26has been a success?
27:30Well, I think,
27:32first of all,
27:32let me completely agree
27:33with Ajay that,
27:33you know,
27:34all of us have been energized
27:36and made much more hopeful,
27:37optimistic
27:37by the young people
27:39who have been incredibly smart
27:41and courageous
27:41and really very,
27:43very impressive
27:43in their movement.
27:45I think what has to change
27:47and why the economic strategy
27:49has to change
27:50in that direction
27:51is that every person
27:54in the country,
27:54I even hesitate to say citizen
27:56because now we don't even know
27:58who a citizen is anymore.
27:59It's become a gift of the state.
28:00But every person
28:01in our country
28:02must get the opportunities
28:04to actually develop
28:05their capabilities
28:06and must be allowed
28:08the freedom
28:09and the context
28:12in which they can actually flourish.
28:16OK, I think that's a good way
28:17to end that,
28:19Jayati and Ajay.
28:20Thank you very much.
28:20We didn't agree on everything,
28:22but I think we can agree
28:23on that at least.
28:25Let's hope
28:26for a positive development
28:28in the future in India.
28:30And it seems
28:31if the strategy is right,
28:33India can do it.
28:34Thank you very much,
28:34both of you.
28:36And that's it for this week
28:37on The Dip.
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