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00:00:00You guys have the best sports section by far of any newspaper in the country.
00:00:03You always have.
00:00:04So that's the one thing I do in the morning.
00:00:06I get up and I sit by my fireplace and I go right to the post and I read it
00:00:10from cover
00:00:11to cover.
00:00:11I just like the way you recap everything.
00:00:13Today was some very creative writing in one of the earlier stories.
00:00:17I don't want to get into that, but I really do dig the post.
00:00:20Yeah.
00:00:21John, again, we got somebody in the news this week.
00:00:23Joe Maddon is one of the eight men who are on the ballot, will be announced December
00:00:306th for the new era, contemporary era, Hall of Fame to be going.
00:00:36It's quite an honor whether he gets in or not.
00:00:38And we got him to talk about that.
00:00:40I'm sure we'll talk about his championship with the Cubs, his time with the Rays, what
00:00:43his managing style looked like then and if it would work now.
00:00:47What do you think about that, John?
00:00:49Yeah, I'm a big fan.
00:00:50John, Joe Maddon is a great manager and certainly deserving to be on that ballot.
00:00:56It is quite a stacked ballot with Bruce Bochy and Dusty Baker and just about everybody,
00:01:02everybody on that, not just about everybody on that ballot is deserving to be on the
00:01:06ballot and to be in the Hall of Fame.
00:01:09So it's always great to talk to Joe.
00:01:11He's got a great perspective on all sorts of things.
00:01:13And we are now starting here at the, I was going to say, winter meetings.
00:01:17These are our winter meetings where we don't have the winter meetings because we don't have
00:01:20a lockout.
00:01:21So the GM meetings and obviously we got a big player to talk about too, right?
00:01:24With Scooble, you know, not every year we have a superstar.
00:01:28I know a lot of people are denigrating the full list of free agency, which is in packed
00:01:33with superstars.
00:01:34But we do have one superstar and we have a lot of other interesting players.
00:01:38And we have two teams in New York that certainly need to do some business.
00:01:42So, and we do think a lot of things are going to happen this month.
00:01:45So it should be an interesting month coming up and I'm looking forward to all of that.
00:01:50Yeah.
00:01:51You know, we'll talk to Joe Maddon.
00:01:52We'll talk about Tarek Scoble.
00:01:53John wrote a great column in, in Monday's post about should the Yankees go after Corey
00:01:58Seager.
00:01:59We're going to talk about that.
00:02:00We'll play hit or error at the end.
00:02:02And if you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman, John, we are
00:02:12at the first big mile marker of an off season, which is the general manager's meetings.
00:02:17Both of you, both of us are doing this from our hotel rooms in Las Vegas and the meetings
00:02:23kind of really get going probably late Monday, early Tuesday, people are starting to come
00:02:28in.
00:02:29We're just talking early Monday morning.
00:02:32John, let me ask a big picture question.
00:02:34Do you expect a lot of business between now and December 1st when we're almost certainly
00:02:40getting a lockout and everything shuts down?
00:02:43Yeah, I think there probably will be.
00:02:45You know, there are going to be some teams that are going to be waiting to see what the
00:02:48rules are.
00:02:49There are other teams that are hoping to get bargains to dive in now in the expectation
00:02:55that there'll be some players that want to get it done before they find out the rules.
00:03:02You know, some teams are just going to be aggressive based on their own situation, right?
00:03:06I mean, the Cubs have lost how many starting pitchers?
00:03:08You know, they've lost, I think, five.
00:03:09So they're one of the teams.
00:03:11And you hear other teams, Toronto, Baltimore, San Francisco, teams that are really motivated.
00:03:17White Sox, certainly the Mets, to really do something big.
00:03:21So I think there will be.
00:03:23I know there haven't been any signings as we do this at this moment, or at least none
00:03:27announced to this point.
00:03:28It may go slowly, but I think it's going to be a big month.
00:03:33John, I think big stuff will happen.
00:03:36I think Scooble, who's the biggest, happens this month.
00:03:39I think, obviously, the players from Asia, notably the three big ones from Japan, you
00:03:44know, there's a time limit on them.
00:03:46So I think deadlines motivate people.
00:03:49I think you hit the key teams.
00:03:51One of the New York teams, not both of the New York teams.
00:03:54The thing that stands out to me is I've noticed a lot of people, we were discussing this before
00:03:58we went on air, and I don't know that I believe this, talking about, like, guys who
00:04:03were a year from free agency.
00:04:04Sandy Alcantara, Stephen Kwan, Joe Ryan, that list of players being very movable right
00:04:13now, and I'm like, can you really trade for a guy who's a free agent at the end of the
00:04:172027 season when we don't know if we're playing 162, 60, or none?
00:04:22And by the way, I'm not sure that you could do a guy who's a four-year service time guy
00:04:26and currently two years from free agency.
00:04:29What if the rules change to free agency's five years, and you've traded, given up a
00:04:33traditional package for a guy who you would have for two years, you only have him for one,
00:04:37or you even have him, we play 80 games next year.
00:04:40You've traded for a year and a half and not two years or something, so I think it puts
00:04:44a real chill in the trade market.
00:04:47Do you agree with that?
00:04:48Yeah, I mean, it certainly complicates trades, particularly the one-year guys like Joe Ryan
00:04:52or Logan Gilbert or the Yankees, Luis Garcia Jr., but you could, while making a trade, put
00:05:01a contingency in, if this happens, if that happens, or something like that, but certainly
00:05:05it's going to complicate things here.
00:05:08So, yeah, trades might be difficult, so maybe we'll lean toward free agency.
00:05:13I could see it either way at this point, though, but the free agency market is an interesting
00:05:18one where we have, Skubo really saves it.
00:05:21I mean, that's really the thing, right?
00:05:22I mean, he's a guy who's going to get probably three times what anybody else gets.
00:05:26I'd say that's a fair estimate.
00:05:28We'll see exactly, but arguably the best pitcher in baseball.
00:05:31I think most people would name him if you said who's the best pitcher in baseball.
00:05:36Some might say Yamamoto, but I think most would probably say Skubo.
00:05:41Obviously, Mizorowski and Slytler had fantastic seasons, but those were their first full season.
00:05:47So, I mean, Skubo, to me, is what this is about.
00:05:52A lot of this is about, you know, there are eight guys who got qualifying offers, so they're
00:05:56all going to get big and interesting deals, and there are other guys who are good, but
00:05:59overall, it's not a weak market, and we have a particularly strong player.
00:06:04So, you and I both agree that we think there's a good chance that he will go this month, and
00:06:11so I think that's another reason why that's where the focus is going to be.
00:06:16You know, John, you pegged him, forgive me, it was like 7 at 384-ish, I think you had.
00:06:22I think I had three, I had half a Soto, so whenever that comes to me, I think it's 372
00:06:27-5,
00:06:27but, you know, they're shooting for more years than that.
00:06:30Of course.
00:06:31We'll see.
00:06:33So, look, I think they're, to your point, if we were going to name who's the ace of the
00:06:38sport, it would be a very short list.
00:06:41Yamamoto, Skubo, maybe Schlittler, like Skubo's on it, and it might be Skubo, to your point,
00:06:47and he's free, and so I think there'll be interest in him, and yet I think it's going
00:06:53to be like Yamamoto.
00:06:54I think it's Mets and Dodgers.
00:06:56I have yet to talk to an executive or a scout who doesn't think it's going to be the Mets
00:07:01versus the Dodgers in this, and so why don't we just drill down?
00:07:05I'm writing about this for tomorrow's New York Post, Tuesday's New York Post, so it'll
00:07:10be posted sometime Monday, probably.
00:07:12Like, the idea of the Mets have to do something that historically for them and historically
00:07:18in the game doesn't really work out, which is go long on this kind of player.
00:07:23Like, their need right now is an ace, and the ace of the sport is available, and they
00:07:29have Steve Cohen's money, and they have David Stern's, whatever he says about blocking out
00:07:33noise, they have David Stern's desperation.
00:07:35He's in year four of a five-year contract.
00:07:37They've been the most disappointing team in the sport the last two years.
00:07:41This is the thing, and yet two years ago, it was like, yo, you know what's going to fix
00:07:45our lineup if we just do one?
00:07:46So you mentioned Soto.
00:07:47They won.
00:07:48We're going to take over New York.
00:07:49We outbid the Yankees, and they've been a disappointing team.
00:07:52In their history, they've gone to the top of the market twice for the starting pitcher.
00:07:57When they traded for Johan Santana, they gave him what I think you and I agree Skubel will
00:08:02get, which is not only the most money, but the highest average value in history.
00:08:06He'll get both things, and with Max Scherzer, they gave him the record AAV and then matched
00:08:13it the next year with Verlander.
00:08:16All of those worked initially.
00:08:18Santana was really good the first three years, and then aside from the no hitter, nothing the
00:08:22last three.
00:08:23And the first year, Scherzer, the Mets won 100 and made the playoffs, and the second year,
00:08:27he's trading Verlander and Scherzer and eating over $70 million to get it done.
00:08:32And the history of the long contract for the starting pitcher, some are Max Scherzer, but
00:08:36some are Steven Strasburg, and much more lean one way.
00:08:41And yet I feel the Mets have to do this, right, because of their current desperation.
00:08:46Where do you fall on it?
00:08:48Yeah, I mean, I think the predictive markets generally agree with what you said.
00:08:53I think one of them I saw, the Mets are 37 percent, the Dodgers are 22 percent, so that's
00:08:57really about almost 60 percent, so a 6 out of 10 chance.
00:09:01So there is some chance that some team's going to come out of, to use a cliche, come out of
00:09:06the woodwork, some interesting situation.
00:09:08There are some new ownership groups.
00:09:10Maybe they will do something.
00:09:12You know, Toronto sometimes goes out there.
00:09:15Philly, obviously, is trying to win.
00:09:17You know, you can guess at who the other teams could be, but I'm kind of with you.
00:09:20I think it's probably higher than 6 out of 10 that it goes to the Mets or the Dodgers.
00:09:24I'm wondering exactly about the Dodgers.
00:09:27You know, can they really do this now when their main owner, now they have several owners,
00:09:32but their main owner is selling off other entities.
00:09:34Can they really go out and get the most expensive guy at this moment?
00:09:38That may give the Mets an edge, and I can see why the Mets are favored.
00:09:42Yeah, it is interesting that this isn't really David Stearns' M.O. to do this, and obviously
00:09:48the Soto thing, which was basically all Steve, we assume, we think, that pretty much is working.
00:09:56I mean, he's performed.
00:09:57He was a little bit hurt sometimes last year, but he's generally done what you'd expect,
00:10:01whereas the small market way to do things has not worked, right?
00:10:05Last winter to sign those guys, basically Luke Weaver worked, but not Polanco and Robert
00:10:13and all the other ones that were kind of, you know, mid-market and obviously very rich guys,
00:10:18but mid-market, they didn't work.
00:10:19So at this point, I think Steve gets his way, and his way probably is Skubal.
00:10:25So I kind of, as we sit here today, I kind of think the Mets are probably the favorite,
00:10:31with as much as we know and think about this, that they're probably the favorite.
00:10:36And the Dodgers, obviously, there were his team last year, and everything worked out
00:10:40other than they didn't win the World Series, but he certainly pitched very well.
00:10:43He got along very well.
00:10:45It seems like Blake Snell is his new bestie.
00:10:48All that's going well, but, you know, you wonder at this point, are the Dodgers going
00:10:52to continue to spend like they have spent, which might give the Mets an edge?
00:10:56So that's why I think it's fair to say the Mets are probably the favorite at this moment.
00:11:01How do you feel about that?
00:11:03Yeah, I think I'm with you, John.
00:11:05And I do think the Mets made two big market moves last year when they didn't get Kyle
00:11:09Tucker losing out in a bidding war with the Dodgers, as they've done quite a bit over
00:11:13the years.
00:11:14He did pivot to Bichette, which was a big market move that didn't work out that well.
00:11:18And I do think going after Freddy Peralta and using two of your better prospects is a
00:11:23big market move that didn't work out for them.
00:11:25So something about the institution also was unhealthy with the Mets last year.
00:11:31Look, I would throw this in about Skubal also.
00:11:34And I keep going back to it feels like the Mets, like I think the logical side of David
00:11:40Stearns, if I was giving David Stearns credit here and I still continue, I'm in a dwindling
00:11:45group, John, who still thinks he's a very talented executive and a given time would fix this.
00:11:51I do think one of the things he has consistently said, people call him arrogant, but one of the
00:11:56things he's consistently said is the history of the game show that if you give long-term
00:12:01contracts to players in their 30s, most don't work.
00:12:04Now, some do.
00:12:05But he always says, I don't have the arrogance.
00:12:07We could make a good educated guess using whatever our stuff is to try to do it.
00:12:11And so I want to stay away from something I feel like all we're doing is doing an educated guess
00:12:16on, which is the long-term deal.
00:12:17And I do wonder, and I think we're both probably going to be in agreement on this.
00:12:22Is there any chance that the Dodgers aren't big bidders on this, that the Mets can try to
00:12:27Kyle Tucker this?
00:12:29And it turns out to be 460s or 465s, like something, because Skubal has had three elbow
00:12:35surgeries.
00:12:36Now, one was described as minor, the Skubal scope.
00:12:39And he did come back and pitch great this year, but he does have two major elbow surgeries.
00:12:44He turns 30 in two weeks.
00:12:47So you're signing a contract if it's seven, eight years for his, you know, throughout his
00:12:5130s.
00:12:52And eventually everyone breaks down, even Garrett Cole.
00:12:54Like, will we look back and say the nine-year contract at Garrett Cole was a good contract?
00:12:58It's good-ish, but it's not great.
00:13:00He missed the full season.
00:13:02He's missed half a season in the last two years.
00:13:04He's declining.
00:13:06You know, he did win an AL Cy Young, and his contract was pretty much like Skubal's would
00:13:11have to be throughout his 30s.
00:13:13Is there any chance, John, if the Dodgers aren't big market things, the Mets could try
00:13:17to Tucker this, or it's going to be, come on, Joel, you know how this works.
00:13:20This kind of player gets the years and gets the dollars.
00:13:23Come on, Joel, you know how this works.
00:13:26I mean, we're not only talking about arguably the best pitcher in the game, we're talking
00:13:30about the guy who's so far in front of everybody else in this market.
00:13:33And it's such the obvious solution for the Mets.
00:13:36And, you know, you and I can guess that maybe the Dodgers aren't going to play as big as
00:13:40they normally do.
00:13:40But how does Steve Cohn guess that?
00:13:42I mean, I have to have pretty good sources in that.
00:13:44Does he have a spy in the organization, in the Dodger organization?
00:13:47I don't think Andrew Friedman or anybody's tipping him off exactly what they're doing,
00:13:51nor would I expect them to.
00:13:53So I would be stunned.
00:13:55I mean, Tucker is a guy, you know, who had some, you know, drawbacks to him.
00:14:00I don't really, I mean, every pitcher, there's no pitcher that's got the perfect picture,
00:14:07so to speak, of the MRI or whatever.
00:14:10There's no one that's perfect.
00:14:12I hadn't heard they had two major surgeries.
00:14:15He's had two surgeries since he's been a professional player.
00:14:19And I think, I'm not sure that either of them were major.
00:14:23I'd have to go back and look.
00:14:24I'm not a doctor and I don't have his medical.
00:14:26Do you have a flexor tendon surgery?
00:14:29Yeah, I don't know.
00:14:30Yeah, I don't know.
00:14:31I don't know what's major.
00:14:32Did he have Tommy John as an amateur?
00:14:33I think he did.
00:14:34I think he had one Tommy John.
00:14:36So obviously everything is considered.
00:14:39But I think the big consideration is, and you said he's free.
00:14:43Free is the right word.
00:14:45He is available.
00:14:46He's not the other kind of free.
00:14:47You know, Tucker had some, you know, he didn't have a good walk year.
00:14:52He had a reputation for being very passionate about baseball.
00:14:57You know, you know, Boris has had these kind of players before.
00:15:02He had Harper off of a poor season.
00:15:04He had below a two war as a free agent.
00:15:07And the Dodgers, which is, you know, basically his hometown team.
00:15:11We are in Las Vegas.
00:15:12He is from Las Vegas.
00:15:13You know, that's his closest team tried to do a four for 160 or 180 or something like
00:15:20that at that point.
00:15:21And, you know, that wasn't really even close.
00:15:24It wasn't even a consideration.
00:15:25The other, the second place team was the Giants, who are not the Dodgers.
00:15:29And, you know, they were off.
00:15:31You know, they go, you know, they're human.
00:15:34They go with the best deal, right?
00:15:36In this case, you know, the Dodgers are the incumbent team.
00:15:39He didn't enjoy it there.
00:15:40Maybe there, you know, there's probably some value in that, but I think they'll go for
00:15:44the best deal.
00:15:45And, yeah, I don't see any scenario.
00:15:48And, yeah, I mean, you know, every pitcher's got something going on, but I don't see that
00:15:54as an overriding issue with Scoople.
00:15:57I mean, he finished the season.
00:15:58He looked like he always does.
00:16:00He's throwing 99 miles an hour, you know.
00:16:03So I don't think the Mets can try to get cute with this at this point.
00:16:08Do you think Harper has regrets he didn't take the four years, 180?
00:16:13I think he probably would have made even...
00:16:14He has regrets he didn't take the opt-out.
00:16:15He has regrets he didn't take the opt-out because Manny Machado, who's had a comparable
00:16:19career to him, now has two $300 million contracts.
00:16:23And he's got the one, and that's why he's trying to negotiate.
00:16:27No, I, you can't, that was his mistake, that he wanted to show how loyal he was.
00:16:33And, you know, I think that this is why the agents tell the players, don't show how loyal
00:16:38you market them, but take the best deal.
00:16:40And the best deal includes an opt-out.
00:16:43So, you know, maybe the Mets can get away with one opt-out instead of three opt-outs or
00:16:49something because he, you know, had a surgery or two or whatever.
00:16:51But I don't think his arm situation is really going to ultimately affect this.
00:16:57He's still going to, as you said, he's going to get the highest per year and the highest
00:17:00overall, right?
00:17:02I was being provocative and asking questions, John.
00:17:04I think he's going to blow away the record for both things.
00:17:09Everyone should always read John Heyman in the post.
00:17:11It's always interesting, always good.
00:17:12Today in the post, get a hard copy, nypost.com.
00:17:16Please join Plus.
00:17:17That's how we pay for John and I to be in Vegas and things like that.
00:17:20John wrote, I would, again, write, say, a provocative column suggesting the Yankees
00:17:25should go after Corey Seager and perhaps play him at shortstop this year with an idea of
00:17:31over the last five years, I think he's got five and 160 left.
00:17:34Is that right, John?
00:17:35Right.
00:17:35Five and 165, right.
00:17:37Five and 165 left.
00:17:38And at some point, morph into a third baseman.
00:17:41You know, there is a history, right?
00:17:44The Yankees made a trade with Texas for a shortstop named Alex Rodriguez, and they had a shortstop
00:17:48and put him at third base.
00:17:49The shortstop was Derek Jeter.
00:17:51I think it would be, John made an excellent case.
00:17:53A little harder to tell him there's a rookie named George Lombard Jr.
00:17:57We want to play there.
00:17:58It might be easier to put Lombard.
00:17:59But anyway, I'm putting words in John's words.
00:18:02Go ahead and make the case.
00:18:05Well, thank you for the kind words.
00:18:07Yeah, I mean, yeah, I thought it was a good, a decent case.
00:18:10But the pushback I got from Yankee fans, you know, they want all these young stars who
00:18:15make nothing.
00:18:16You know, they don't own the team.
00:18:17I don't know why they're all concerned about the money, I guess, because they know that
00:18:20there isn't an endless supply.
00:18:22This isn't the Dodgers, and they have a set payroll.
00:18:25You know, I personally think it should be the Dodgers.
00:18:28They sold 15% of the team for an immense amount of money.
00:18:32Again, neither of us is an economist.
00:18:33We don't know exactly what the valuation of the team is.
00:18:36But conservatively, it's $10 billion.
00:18:39And it's probably a lot more than that.
00:18:40And certainly the private equity group that bought the portion of the team, they get no
00:18:44controlling portion of this team for this valuation that looks like it's at least $10 billion.
00:18:50Some people have said it's more than that.
00:18:52But, you know, it's not my money.
00:18:56Their offense was brutal last year.
00:18:58They were in the bottom seven.
00:19:00And on base percentage, this is the New York Yankees.
00:19:02On base percentage, they're in the bottom seven in batting average.
00:19:05Okay, I can live with that.
00:19:06But on base percentage, to have all these stars.
00:19:09Now, obviously, Judge missed half the year, and Stanton missed almost the whole year.
00:19:13But, I mean, to be in the bottom seven in on base percentage, that's pathetic.
00:19:18And obviously, and they know this, it didn't work out for whatever reason with McMahon.
00:19:23And, I mean, perhaps he'll have some portion of third base.
00:19:26But the goal here is to find a third baseman.
00:19:28You wrote a good column about all the more realistic possibilities than Seager, right?
00:19:33Royce Lewis is more realistic.
00:19:35Schmidt from the Giants is more realistic.
00:19:37Westbrook from the Orioles, they're more realistic than Seager.
00:19:42But, I mean, they needed a major upgrade in offense.
00:19:47Now, presumably, they'll get a big upgrade with Judge playing a whole season
00:19:52and Stanton at least playing some of the season.
00:19:55But they were like 24th or something, 26th on base percentage.
00:20:00I mean, they're not even close at this point.
00:20:02And Seager is a two-time World Series MVP.
00:20:05We're talking about a very special player.
00:20:06I don't think people realize how special he is.
00:20:09The other two-time MVPs of the World Series are Reggie Jackson, Sandy Koufax, and Bob Gibson.
00:20:14Now, he's probably not any of those three guys, but he certainly has a Hall of Fame case.
00:20:19And the Yankees haven't been good enough for 17 years.
00:20:23So, you know, the fans want to get young superstars for nothing.
00:20:29That's their goal.
00:20:29But I'm trying to be how I think they should operate this team and not worry so much about, you
00:20:36know, making a profit every year.
00:20:38The Yankees bought the team for $10 million.
00:20:40Let's just say they're worth $10 billion, and we think they're worth a lot more than that.
00:20:44They're up 100,000%.
00:20:47Not 1,000.
00:20:48100,000%.
00:20:50That's a lot of money they've made.
00:20:52You know, John, can I agree with the thesis and not agree with the player?
00:20:59So, I think the thesis is right.
00:21:01I think the Yankees – I think Hal Steinbrenner in his quest to year-to-year tamp down money that
00:21:06he's ultimately going to spend and ultimately going to, like, live in misery because they didn't win.
00:21:11Like, they just blew it last year.
00:21:12Alex Bregman should have been a Yankee.
00:21:15Alex Bregman is a born winner.
00:21:17He's never not been in the postseason.
00:21:19I think a lot of – at least partial Yankee problems would have fallen away with Bregman, who's a gamer,
00:21:26who plays the game the right way, who got his face busted at the end of the season and hardly
00:21:32missed any time because he's that guy.
00:21:35They should have gotten over the 2017 stuff and just spent some of the money and answered it.
00:21:40My concern on Seager is this.
00:21:43He's entering his age 32 season with five years left.
00:21:46You mentioned Royce Lewis has been on the IL nine times.
00:21:50Seager has been on the IL nine times over the last four years.
00:21:53He's been on it three times in each of the last two, and nothing scares me.
00:21:57We've covered Don Mattingly and David Wright twice for inflamed lower backs.
00:22:03That would scare me.
00:22:04He's coming off his worst season where he had a low batting average in the 220s, where he had a
00:22:10low on-base percentage in the 300s.
00:22:12And what scares me is he's one of the – I recommended Seager and Freeman the year they were both
00:22:18free agents for the Yankees because I like that they were both great hitters besides being able to hit for
00:22:23some power.
00:22:23He struck out almost 24 percent of the time last year, Seager, which was by far the most.
00:22:28It just feels like you're going to buy the last five injury-prone years.
00:22:32I think they need a bat badly, John, and not a half-measure.
00:22:37I can't tell you who that bat is.
00:22:40That's the problem.
00:22:41That's the problem.
00:22:42That's the problem.
00:22:43That's why I found your column provocative.
00:22:45You provided a name.
00:22:47I personally don't love the name because I think he's trending in all the wrong ways both in performance and
00:22:53health.
00:22:53But I am with you to say they're not a half-measure offensively away.
00:22:59Their offense stunk last year.
00:23:02It lacked like tough at-bats.
00:23:06And I can't count on Stanton at all and probably a little less on Judge just staying healthy now at
00:23:1335 in his mid-30s.
00:23:15Like he's going to have big man injuries like Stanton.
00:23:18He's big and he does everything with great force and torque.
00:23:21I think they need another bat.
00:23:24But you at least had the courage of your conviction to go out and tell me a name.
00:23:29I keep scouring looking for the name.
00:23:31I can't find it, John, except for to tell you I'd be really afraid of the last five years of
00:23:37Seager's contract.
00:23:38Yeah.
00:23:39This is my problem right now.
00:23:41I don't think you can wait for perfection.
00:23:43It's not out there.
00:23:44You know, everybody's got something going on, right?
00:23:47I mean, Tucker was not perfect.
00:23:49Now, that has not worked so far for the Dodgers.
00:23:51But I think, you know, every Bichette, not perfect.
00:23:55He also had some injury history.
00:23:57He did not have a great year in 2024.
00:24:01So, you know, the one year, the first year that Howell was in charge, they spent.
00:24:07They spent huge, right?
00:24:08They got Sabathia.
00:24:09They got Tagera.
00:24:10And they got Burnett.
00:24:11Now, Burnett was not a perfect player.
00:24:13And he didn't really work that great for the Yankees.
00:24:16But they won the World Series.
00:24:18It's the New York Yankees.
00:24:19They need to win the World Series.
00:24:21They need to stop doing these half things.
00:24:24Now, yeah, there are other some other guys out there.
00:24:27But, you know, are they really going to spend on an outfielder at this point?
00:24:31Right?
00:24:31I mean, the best guys.
00:24:33Your point is well made, John.
00:24:34There's nobody out there that really fits.
00:24:37You know me.
00:24:38You know how I work.
00:24:39I kind of keep looking for it because I'd like to do what you did and write the column and
00:24:43say, go get him.
00:24:45The guy I feel they should get isn't a great offensive player, but fits their need.
00:24:53And that's Stephen Kwan, who I think is just a good – like he's not Bregman, but like Bregman, he's
00:24:58just a good baseball player.
00:25:00And he includes on-base percentage at a very high level and contact, and he can play some center field.
00:25:07And the problem is he's one of those one-year guys.
00:25:10Now, to me, if I was rolling the dice, I'd be like – first of all, Hal Steinbrenner should have
00:25:15more information about where these negotiations are going than just about anyone.
00:25:19He's on the negotiating committee.
00:25:20He's one of – he's probably the owner face of this negotiation.
00:25:24So, like, he knows if we're playing closer to 162 or 62.
00:25:28And if he thinks we're playing closer to 162, I would roll the dice on Kwan, who I just think
00:25:35is, you know, a really good baseball player.
00:25:38And the Yankees need to get in the business of really good baseball players because too many of their guys
00:25:43have no idea there's a scoreboard standing at center field that gives them all kinds of information about how to
00:25:49play the game that they constantly ignore.
00:25:51Yeah, well, you said he's a one-year guy who's also an outfielder, so that doesn't really fit for me.
00:25:57I mean, you know, Ty France had a great year.
00:25:59Could you bring him in?
00:26:00I mean, I kind of think, like you, as we talked about last week, they trade Luis Garcia Jr.
00:26:06You know, maybe they get somebody for him.
00:26:08You mentioned Kwan there.
00:26:10But, you know, I think they need a home run.
00:26:14And to me, Seager, if he has his normal season, and he probably isn't going to have five great seasons,
00:26:21but if he has his normal season in Yankee Stadium, he might hit 40 home runs.
00:26:27So, you know, anyway, that was my thought behind that.
00:26:32I just, I don't see other options.
00:26:34And he is a great player.
00:26:35That's why I wanted to say, you had the conviction there and wrote a name that I, like, I would
00:26:42say this, and I'm sure, maybe the Yankees have done this.
00:26:44I would call Cleveland and say Kwan and Kate Smith and tell me when to stop putting prospects into the,
00:26:52into the trade.
00:26:55Because I, they need, because I would also try to re-sign Bednar.
00:26:59I'd have Bednar and Kate Smith at the end.
00:27:01I'd have a really good, hey, does it, you know, is that a Spencer Jones trade?
00:27:07And then I clear out some of my outfield where it's Kwan in center field.
00:27:11And I've gone a little away from the power strikeout profile.
00:27:15I don't know.
00:27:15I don't know what the right answer is, John.
00:27:17Well, I love Kwan and Kate Smith.
00:27:18I just don't know why Cleveland would do that.
00:27:21You know, they can win that division, you know, the way they are.
00:27:23Yes, absolutely.
00:27:25Absolutely.
00:27:26I don't expect it's going to happen, but I would, there are certain times where you say, behave like the
00:27:31Yankees.
00:27:31And I wouldn't prospect clutch when it comes to doing something.
00:27:37And if a door opened up on something that looked like that, you know, like let's pick it someplace else.
00:27:43I wouldn't clutch every prospect.
00:27:45I agree.
00:27:45You'd have to find a team with no chance, though.
00:27:47I think Cleveland has a chance.
00:27:50Again, and I do want to go back.
00:27:51They win that division most years, right?
00:27:53They win that division most years, right?
00:27:56Yeah.
00:27:56And I just want to go back because I disagreed with you on the player.
00:27:59And again, point out.
00:28:00I got you.
00:28:01At least you have the balls to write a name.
00:28:04Hey, what do we lose?
00:28:05What do I lose by writing it?
00:28:07I just get the people disagreeing with me on Twitter.
00:28:10That's okay.
00:28:11I think they need a bat.
00:28:13I think that they need a good baseball player who could also hit.
00:28:19Joe Maddon, who is on the contemporary era ballot for the Hall of Fame, I'm sure will talk to us
00:28:27about managing players in this era and other stuff.
00:28:29And being on that ballot, he's our guest, and he joins us next.
00:28:38John and I are so happy to have three-time manager of the year, the manager of one of the
00:28:43all-time iconic champions, the 2016 Cubs, who are still at one in over about 120 years now.
00:28:50But they did win in 2016 under the stewardship of Joe Maddon.
00:28:55Joe, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
00:28:57Thanks for asking, guys.
00:28:58And I check you out once in a while.
00:29:00I read your newspaper.
00:29:01You're the only paper I read every day.
00:29:03You guys have the best sports section by far of any newspaper in the country.
00:29:06You always have.
00:29:08So that's the one thing I do in the morning.
00:29:10I get up, and I sit by my fireplace, and I go right to the post.
00:29:13And I read it from cover to cover.
00:29:15I just like the way you recap everything.
00:29:16I did it with some very creative writing in one of the earlier stories.
00:29:20I don't want to get into that, but I really do dig the post.
00:29:25For our audience, Joe is one of the nicest people I deal with.
00:29:31And every once in a while, there's a text message sitting there, really loved your piece yesterday or something.
00:29:35So I know you are a reader, Joe.
00:29:37Thanks so much.
00:29:38Look, there's a ton of reasons to have Joe Maddon on a baseball podcast.
00:29:42But let's not bury the lead.
00:29:44Last week's contemporary baseball era came out with its ballot for eight people, the class of 2027.
00:29:51December 6th, there will be the voting.
00:29:54This is not the Baseball Writers Committee.
00:29:55This is 16 Hall of Famers, veteran writers, historians, et cetera, who decide this.
00:30:03And I just want to go through it just so we know the neighborhood Joe Maddon's living in.
00:30:07It's obviously Joe Maddon.
00:30:08The others are Sandy Alderson, Dusty Baker, Bruce Bochy, Lou Piniella, Brian Sabian, Ted Turner, Bill White.
00:30:14By the way, these are much more interesting ballots now than the ones we actually get to do.
00:30:19And I think I can make a pretty strong case for all eight humans on this ballot should get in
00:30:26over time.
00:30:27Unfortunately, it's only usually about two, one, two, maybe three that get in.
00:30:32But it is a distinction historically to be on it.
00:30:37Joe, the question I had is there's four managers on, including you.
00:30:42And I was thinking this as I was putting that list together when I started writing the names down.
00:30:47Do you know when you're managing against the Hall of Fame level manager?
00:30:50And what is that?
00:30:51What is that when you look across and are managing?
00:30:55It's like, does it feel different to manage against Lou Piniella and Dusty Baker and Bruce Bochy?
00:30:59When I first came up, it did.
00:31:01Absolutely.
00:31:02Jimmy Leland used to bother me in all the best ways for him.
00:31:05You know, he always felt like you had to be on your toes a little bit more than normal.
00:31:10I could recap plays that he put a hit and run on one time up in Detroit.
00:31:15I was not expecting it all.
00:31:16Almost got Ty Wiginton killed charging up in the anticipation of a bunt.
00:31:21Lou is always like that.
00:31:22Lou is unpredictable.
00:31:24Unpredictability, fearlessness.
00:31:25I think that's what I've noticed most about these kind of managers that have really cut their teeth for a
00:31:31long period of time.
00:31:33There is a fearlessness about them.
00:31:34They're never worried about answering questions after the game.
00:31:37They're going to try different things based on what they perceive to be the right thing to do in the
00:31:42moment.
00:31:42And so there's that.
00:31:43There's this aura about them.
00:31:46Yes, I think that is true.
00:31:48So for me, I had to get past that.
00:31:50Bochy and I go, excuse me, way back.
00:31:52He was a minor league manager in Riverside when I was roving for the Angels.
00:31:55I saw him manage in Riverside in the 80s at some point or early 90s, whatever it was.
00:32:01So I didn't feel it as much with Bochy as I did with these other dudes that I didn't really
00:32:05didn't feel as much of a contemporary with.
00:32:07So, yes, the answer is yes.
00:32:09And you've got to get over it.
00:32:11First of all, I've got to thank you, Joe, for joining us.
00:32:13And I've got to say you're my favorite guest now that you've said such kind things about the Post.
00:32:18I don't always hear such kind things about the Post.
00:32:22I've got to ask you, I mean, you certainly are deserving of being on the ballot.
00:32:25Do they check with you first to see if you are actually retired?
00:32:29Because we've had precedent.
00:32:30Obviously, Tony La Russa came back and managed after he got into the Hall of Fame.
00:32:34But do they check with you first?
00:32:36And you're about my age.
00:32:37You're obviously you seem a lot younger than I do.
00:32:40You're very vibrant.
00:32:42If you are retired, why are you retired?
00:32:45No, no one checked.
00:32:47And it was kind of a surprise for me, honestly, because I don't really keep tabs.
00:32:51I'm pretty busy doing what I do every day.
00:32:54And it's honestly being semi-retired, whatever, has been rather busy.
00:32:59So, no, they did not check.
00:33:00Why am I retired?
00:33:02Quite frankly, I don't think what I do in my skill set is sought after anymore.
00:33:06I think when I was first coming up as a manager in early 2000s, what I did and how I
00:33:11did it
00:33:11was kind of on the cutting edge of where they wanted to go, they being front offices.
00:33:17And then it gets to the point, I believe, where I'm actually not so desirable because I have strong opinions.
00:33:25So I think that really is honestly what gets in the way.
00:33:28And I'm not here to lament that.
00:33:29I'm not crying at all.
00:33:30I've had a great run and everybody's been wonderful and I'm very grateful.
00:33:34But I just think pragmatically where I come from and what I shouldn't say require, but on a daily basis,
00:33:41what I can bring and what I've been nurtured to bring is not nearly sought after meaning, experience, feel, intuition,
00:33:48things like that, and really a strong opinion on subjects.
00:33:51So I think today's world, they prefer somebody, for lack of better word or phrase, more controllable than maybe they
00:34:01perceive that I am, although I believe I played well in the sandbox as well as anybody.
00:34:06So anyway, I just think it comes down to where we're at right now, what is being sought after, and
00:34:12I don't think I necessarily have those qualities.
00:34:14You know, Joe, I would say the proof's in the pudding that your way worked.
00:34:17Once again, there's eight people being on a very short, great ballot for the Hall of Fame in a couple
00:34:23of weeks, and you're on there.
00:34:24So I know the way you did it works.
00:34:26What do you think these modern front offices are missing by reopening the door to people who look like you
00:34:34and think like you and want to do it like you?
00:34:37Well, I think they're missing balance, quite frankly.
00:34:41It's like I am so about the data.
00:34:44I'm so about the numbers.
00:34:45You know that.
00:34:45That's really pretty much, I think, what impressed Andrew and Matt Silverman when I first moved in to take over
00:34:52with the Devil Rays.
00:34:53I came in fully armed and loaded with my perception of what analytics was at that time.
00:34:58I'd been doing that since 1996-7 when I was the bench coach for the Angels.
00:35:03I had my own version of this that I kept building upon from my managers, whether it was Terry Collins
00:35:07or Mike Socha.
00:35:08So it was something that I was very stood at, I thought, and something that I grew with.
00:35:16And so that was the basis of me, I think, my allure at that particular juncture.
00:35:23But then it gets to the point now where they prefer, like I said, you shouldn't be old school or
00:35:30new school.
00:35:31You should be in school, meaning the balance once again.
00:35:33And I think that that's what they're missing.
00:35:36They don't want arguments.
00:35:38They don't want dissenting opinions, which I love.
00:35:42I mean, you know, back in the day, I sat in rooms with some really strong personalities and some very
00:35:47severe arguments just over a shortstop or maybe a cutoff and relay, whatever it might be.
00:35:52And that's how you really cut your teeth.
00:35:54And that's how I learned the game.
00:35:55My mentors were fabulous.
00:35:57My mentors were, you talk about Hall of Fame dudes back in the 80s and 90s.
00:36:00They were fabulous.
00:36:01So that's not part of it.
00:36:03I had Don Zimmer more recently with the Rays.
00:36:06And him coming in every day with a bag of hot dogs sitting down with me and talking about the
00:36:10night before game was invaluable.
00:36:11I had Tony La Russa with the Angels for a bit.
00:36:15That kind of situation or conciliary is not really – they don't understand the importance of that when you have
00:36:25somebody to bounce things off of daily.
00:36:27So it's not important.
00:36:28Math is more important than the feel of having done it so many years on a backfield at Geonautry Park
00:36:34or in Midland, Texas or Idaho Falls.
00:36:36That really isn't considered nearly as important anymore as maybe a new equation is.
00:36:41You used the right phrase, cutting edge.
00:36:43You were on the cutting edge when you came in with Tampa.
00:36:46And they're always considered to be on the cutting edge.
00:36:49Do you think at this point the analytics, they're going too far with the analytics?
00:36:54Is that an issue in baseball?
00:36:56I know a lot of people think that.
00:36:58But what do you think, since you were really, you know, one of the first guys to really use them?
00:37:06I mean, the shifts and everything else you guys did in Tampa.
00:37:09Yeah, I mean, and that's it.
00:37:10I mean, there's a definite place for analytics.
00:37:13But I think it's become to the point where these baseball ops departments are so large, there's got to be
00:37:18a lot of redundancy in there.
00:37:19There's only so much information until you can utilize on a daily basis.
00:37:22Whether you're the manager or the coach, and definitely as a player.
00:37:25I mean, I really was very hyper-aware of not giving my players too much information.
00:37:31Because quite frankly, they can't use it.
00:37:33They can't handle it.
00:37:34You don't want split thoughts when you're in the batter's box, on the mound, whatever.
00:37:37However, there is a lot of good stuff out there that is really germane.
00:37:41Even to fix a swing.
00:37:43I mean, as a hitting coach, of which I was, you could look at a swing so much that you
00:37:48could almost not see it anymore.
00:37:50You need something to slow it down, break it down, and point different things out to you.
00:37:53I'm in.
00:37:54I'm in.
00:37:55But I do think that it's gotten to the point where people believe that the analytics are the be-all,
00:38:00end-all to the success of an organization.
00:38:02And if that were the case, you would have seen a lot more teams over 500 last year, or a
00:38:07much stronger American League, if that, in fact, were the case.
00:38:09So I just think, again, that, yes, I want it.
00:38:12I want the best.
00:38:13But I don't need redundancy.
00:38:15I need just enough.
00:38:16I need guys down there until maybe 2.30 in the afternoon.
00:38:19Then I want them out of my clubhouse.
00:38:20I want the coaches to be in charge of each department, hitting, pitching, whatever.
00:38:26And I want him to have somebody analytically that answers to him and not the other way around.
00:38:32It got to the point I got guys in my office at 6.15 or 6 o'clock for a
00:38:376.40 game in Anaheim.
00:38:39Telling me who I can and cannot use in my bullpen.
00:38:42That's just not right.
00:38:43You know, Joe, I think this is, I like the word you used before, Jermaine, to the conversation.
00:38:50I don't think I've ever talked to you about this, about how meaningful something you did for me was.
00:38:57And it was such a different time.
00:39:002002 postseason, where the Angels go to the championship.
00:39:04You're the bench coach, I believe, of that team.
00:39:06And it's just long enough ago where you could walk into the coach's room if you were a reporter and
00:39:12talk to coaches.
00:39:13Think about trying to do that now.
00:39:14At Yankee Stadium, I think they'd snipe you.
00:39:16They wouldn't even arrest you.
00:39:17They'd just shoot you.
00:39:20Am I right?
00:39:20You used to have a big chart on your wall.
00:39:23And you were nice enough one day to explain the whole chart to me.
00:39:26And it was so meaningful to understand what you were doing, which was motivating players to play the right way
00:39:32by making it a competition.
00:39:34About moving runners over.
00:39:36Who got successful bumps down.
00:39:37You were giving points.
00:39:38Am I remembering this right?
00:39:40About doing it.
00:39:41And I thought so much about it watching the Brewers play.
00:39:44About how they were valued.
00:39:46When somebody says somebody like you couldn't manage today, my point is always, well, it's about leadership and valuing what
00:39:53you value and motivating people who are the most competitive people in the world, who are athletes.
00:39:59And I don't know if there's a question in there as much as there's just that strong memory of it
00:40:05and this feeling like it's still, like I've thought about it for 25 years.
00:40:10Like when I watch a baseball game, what's being valued and what's not?
00:40:14Because you were nice enough to take a time in that postseason and explain your whole chart to me.
00:40:20It was a competition.
00:40:21I started that in instructional leagues in the 1980s.
00:40:24And I have it right here on my iPad somewhere.
00:40:25I got it in my Google Drive.
00:40:28I keep a copy of that because I always wanted it on hand.
00:40:32It was a competition.
00:40:34You know, moving a runner from second to third, advancing under 90 feet, a two-strike hit, a two-strike
00:40:38RBI, double jeopardy, runners on second and third, nobody out, ground ball to the right side, run scores, runner goes
00:40:44to third base.
00:40:46All these different things are on it.
00:40:48From an offensive perspective, it was primarily an offensive chart.
00:40:51And I would just keep it in the dugout and put a little mark after your name.
00:40:55I kept like a grid.
00:40:57So if you did something on this chart, I would mark it on a grid.
00:41:00And in instructional league, again, this is in the 80s.
00:41:02I'd line them up on the right field, foul line on field three before the game.
00:41:05And we'd go up and down the line inspecting their uniform and how they were wearing their uniform.
00:41:10And then I would read off the chart.
00:41:11And you'd get the oohs and the aahs because there were some negatives.
00:41:14It was a positive and a negative chart.
00:41:16So, yeah, I mean, on a daily basis, you want to teach the game.
00:41:21And, of course, there's nothing more that's teach-worthy, teachable-worthy than the scoreboard itself.
00:41:27The scoreboard tells you exactly what you need to do in the moment.
00:41:30And it's constantly changing.
00:41:31And that's what people don't understand.
00:41:33What's required changes pitch by pitch, out by out, inning by inning.
00:41:38So this was my ability, my attempt to break it down to the point where I wanted to just stick
00:41:43with our guys.
00:41:43I wanted them to play a complete game.
00:41:46Today's, you know, the three true outcomes, et cetera.
00:41:48I want it all.
00:41:49I want dudes that hit three-run homers.
00:41:51Absolutely, I do.
00:41:52I want guys that have good command of their strike zone and accept their walks.
00:41:55But I also want a safety squeeze.
00:41:57I also want, like I said, double jeopardy, second and third.
00:42:00Know that you're supposed to move the runner right here.
00:42:02All those different things.
00:42:03But they don't, that's not being taught.
00:42:05It's not being required.
00:42:06It's not being asked of.
00:42:08It's not being held accountable anymore.
00:42:10That's why you're not seeing the players really focus on doing these kind of things.
00:42:14Great answer, as always.
00:42:16Amazing.
00:42:17I do want to change the subject and ask something about something that's hanging over baseball right now.
00:42:22This lockout is coming December 1st.
00:42:24We all know that at this point.
00:42:26Obviously, we know it's unfortunate.
00:42:29To me, I don't get it.
00:42:31I'm just a writer.
00:42:32I'm not an economist.
00:42:34You know, a team that you were associated with at the beginning.
00:42:37And at the end, the Angels were bought for something like $170 million.
00:42:42They were sold for $4 billion.
00:42:44So, your old friend, Artie Moreno, who, you know, obviously did a mixed job.
00:42:49And I'm being kind there.
00:42:50He went up 25 times.
00:42:53The value of his franchise went up 25 times in the generation, 25 years or so, that he owned the
00:42:59team.
00:43:00The players, it hit home for me how much money these players make.
00:43:03I'm a big tennis fan.
00:43:04When I saw Gail Mofis, who's a great tennis player, was up to number six in the world at one
00:43:09point and very entertaining, they said that he made $25 million in prize money in his career.
00:43:14And it's a world sport.
00:43:16I know it's not as big here.
00:43:17And then I thought to myself, Sean Mania makes $25 million.
00:43:19He's the number five pitcher on the Mets.
00:43:21He's making $25 million.
00:43:22So, they're doing well, too.
00:43:24I mean, am I crazy?
00:43:25I think they're all crazy.
00:43:27What do you think about this?
00:43:29Well, you know, again, I never owned a major league baseball team.
00:43:33I'd like to believe if I did, I would really try to set it up kind of like we just
00:43:37said, maybe just right off that grid, learn how to play the game properly.
00:43:40And then the finances would take care of itself.
00:43:43But these franchises are worth an extraordinary amount of money.
00:43:46And then I think from the player's perspective, obviously, agents, whatever, and even from the fans' perspective, when you plead
00:43:53poverty and you don't want to spend that money in order to, quote, unquote, build a winner.
00:43:57I mean, I was a part of, obviously, the 2008 Devil Rays raise, and we went to the World Series
00:44:03on a $43 million payroll, which, you know, ridiculous that it happened.
00:44:09But at that particular juncture for me, and you could ask any one of my dudes, my guys, I never
00:44:14one time lamented the fact that we did not spend enough money.
00:44:17So, from the owner's perspective, they're a businessman.
00:44:20They want to make money.
00:44:21I don't know how much of this is just incestuous, where they talk about this all the time, obviously, and
00:44:27they have to arrive at certain junctures in order to continue to make more money.
00:44:31But, again, at what point is enough enough?
00:44:34I don't know.
00:44:35You could even say that from a player's perspective.
00:44:37How much money does a player necessarily have to make to really have considered having a wonderful career?
00:44:42But the point is, at the end of the day, money's money.
00:44:46I get it.
00:44:47But I want the game to be played right.
00:44:49I think the Brewers this year and the Rays, which we've been for a long time, are a perfect example
00:44:54of being able to play the game properly and well and win without having to spend an exorbitant amount of
00:44:59monies.
00:45:00Infrastructure matters.
00:45:02Infrastructure's really good.
00:45:03Nobody even talks about that.
00:45:05Spring training facilities, what's in that facility, you know, how well you take care of your players, nutrition, whatever.
00:45:10That's the important part that nobody really gloms onto.
00:45:14But I'd like to see more conversation based on – and, again, the demise of the minor leagues really bothers
00:45:20me.
00:45:20I'm a minor league grunt, and I know instructional leagues.
00:45:23Instructionally, it was six weeks from the middle of September to Halloween that we really built a lot of very
00:45:30good baseball players.
00:45:31And if you look at the Angels from 1984 to 1994, we put more people in the big leagues than
00:45:35anybody.
00:45:36This is the stuff that's not even – nobody's concerned about.
00:45:39If you want to save money, do a better job of this, do a better job of developing players.
00:45:44And, you know, the limited number of draft picks – and I know the argument is going to be made
00:45:49that normally only the higher draft picks make it.
00:45:51And why should we waste all this money supporting this whole group of other guys?
00:45:55I'm one of those other guys.
00:45:56You know, I never would have had this opportunity if minor league baseball didn't exist the way that it did.
00:46:02And there's all the – whether it's minor league baseball, professional baseball, collegiate baseball.
00:46:07Look at Murph. Look what Murph did this year.
00:46:09Murph banged around as much as I banged around, right?
00:46:12So there's so many different layers to this that nobody really examines.
00:46:16At the end of the day, owners are going to want to make money.
00:46:18God bless them. It's their team.
00:46:20But at the end of the end of the day, I'd prefer to see better baseball fundamentally played and nurtured,
00:46:25and then we might not have to pay so much money by going out and buy people.
00:46:29You know, Joe, there was so much there.
00:46:31You mentioned that you've never been involved in ownership.
00:46:33I have no idea how over the last 10 years two guys named Sherman bought a baseball team,
00:46:37and I'm related to neither of them.
00:46:38It feels impossible to me, but here we are.
00:46:43You know, you mentioned Instructional League.
00:46:45Derek Jeter would tell you he was made in Instructional League by Brian Butterfield,
00:46:50working with him every day after he made over 50 errors in the minor leagues one year.
00:46:55But you kept going back to Murph and the Brewers and the Rays.
00:46:59And I do think, besides the money, look, one of the questions that's come up in New York is
00:47:04the Yankees tend to fall into bad habits as the season goes along,
00:47:08where they kind of at some point to me feel like, you know, it's tiring to play baseball smart and
00:47:13well every day,
00:47:14so let's try to hit homers and strike people out.
00:47:17And then the question becomes, can that kind of managing work in New York with veteran players?
00:47:22And I always think that's a crutch.
00:47:23Quite frankly, I'll use the word.
00:47:25I think it's bullshit, you know, like telling me you can't rebuild in New York.
00:47:31Of course you can.
00:47:32You just tell the fans what you're doing and not lie.
00:47:34Why does everyone lie so comfortably?
00:47:36Do you think the style of Murphy, Madden, Cash works in New York, works in L.A., works in Chicago?
00:47:44Works everywhere, man.
00:47:45It will work.
00:47:47It can and will work everywhere.
00:47:48It's just a matter of commitment on the other side.
00:47:50And like you're kind of suggesting what you're comfortable with in regards to possibly getting your brains being in a
00:47:56little bit before you come out the other side.
00:47:58I mean, my first two years with the Rays, we lost 100 games my first year, almost 100 the second
00:48:03year, the third year in the World Series.
00:48:05A lot of that was we had a nice basis of talent there draft-wise.
00:48:11And then Andrew with the trades with the Twins and getting Garza and Bartlett, et cetera, into the fold.
00:48:17And then folded in the perfect veteran leadership.
00:48:21And that, to me, is like that's what really got the Rays over the top.
00:48:25That was Cliff Floyd, Eric Kinski, and Troy Percival.
00:48:28Those are like three of the biggest ingredients of that team that entire beyond all the wonderful talent on the
00:48:33field.
00:48:33So when you're putting it together to just rely on one method of operation and kind of hope and pray
00:48:42that it's going to work, in other words, the three-run homer, et cetera.
00:48:45Weaver did it back in the day.
00:48:46Earl was well ahead of his time, but he had the right personnel.
00:48:49I would want it.
00:48:50I want it all.
00:48:50I want it all.
00:48:51I want guys that put the ball in the seats, right and left-handed.
00:48:54I want guys that could run and steal a bag.
00:48:55I want defense.
00:48:56I mean, if you want some – the more controllable component of the game to me is defense.
00:49:00I mean, when you hire a good defender, he's probably going to be a good defender all the time.
00:49:05And, of course, you've got to hit.
00:49:06You've got to make your score runs, et cetera.
00:49:08But the most consistent part of the game when the guy is good at it, to me, is defense.
00:49:12And then probably pitching, and then the least consistent part is hitting because it's a reactive part of the game.
00:49:18It's not a proactive part of the game.
00:49:20So this is – spring training, you're getting me wound up because this is spring training.
00:49:26Whatever you believe – base training.
00:49:28You know the first thing we did every day in spring training?
00:49:29Ran the bases.
00:49:31And you ran the bases during your stretch sometimes.
00:49:33But anything you do in the first part of spring training workouts, the players believe, man, this must be pretty
00:49:39important.
00:49:39They do it every day just like this.
00:49:42That's when you make – and then when you get to this season, you've got a 10-game homestand, maybe.
00:49:47Maybe one or two days of those 10 days, you bring the whole group out and remind them of something
00:49:52you did in spring training.
00:49:53Because we always do spring training and then hope and prayer count on the fact that it's going to work
00:49:58the same way when it's called upon during the season.
00:50:01Now, bunting is not as obvious or is not as prominent, so the bunt defense is maybe not as.
00:50:07However, just getting them out there as a group, going to gather something as a group, this group thing, Yankee
00:50:13way, Angels way, whatever way, matters.
00:50:16And it could never be punitive.
00:50:18Don't wait for something to go wrong to do this.
00:50:19Do it in advance of a punitive situation.
00:50:23You know, we're 20 minutes in, and we haven't asked you about one of the greatest championships in baseball history
00:50:28and one of the big reasons you are on this ballot.
00:50:32Tell me some of your remembrances that we may not know of that 2016 Cubs championship.
00:50:38Well, I mean, you probably saw it from a distance, but my God, what a great group of men.
00:50:45Again, that was such a tightly knit group, and again, it had a wonderful blend of youth and the veterans.
00:50:52Again, I'm stuck on that because I believe in it.
00:50:54I mean, the team on the field, I think, was the youngest team ever to win, but then it was
00:50:57sprinkled with David Ross's, Johnny Lester's, Miguel Montero's, et cetera.
00:51:02And because even Rizzo was 27, I think, at that time.
00:51:05I think Jason Hayward was.
00:51:06Contreras was in his early 20s.
00:51:07Schwerber was a baby.
00:51:09So, and then you had Ariadne, he had Lackey.
00:51:11So, he had all this stuff going on there.
00:51:12So, that's the thing I don't know that when they look at that team, and it was supposed to be
00:51:18this dominant team for years to come, you know, we kind of, some guys just didn't quite perform a couple
00:51:25years later as they did then.
00:51:27However, I wish we had stayed together there longer because I do think that we could have.
00:51:30But the big thing I think you'd really understand is, like, as a group, we did a gig in Chicago
00:51:36this year for our 10-year reunion.
00:51:38So, they had us at the Chicago Theater, eight or nine of us on stage.
00:51:42Buk Shambi did the emceeing.
00:51:44Sell out.
00:51:44The place was sold out.
00:51:45I couldn't believe it.
00:51:46But I'm sitting there in a corner, and I'm looking right down the line at all my guys, all my
00:51:50guys.
00:51:51And I'm listening to the conversation and how they're answering questions.
00:51:54And I said to myself, hmm, that's why.
00:51:58As they're answering questions, they're all man up.
00:52:01They never made an excuse.
00:52:02They had each other's backs all the time.
00:52:04There was accountability like you cannot believe.
00:52:07But that, I knew that.
00:52:09But just sitting there listening to my guys on that stage, wow, I said to me, okay, there's your answer.
00:52:14That is why.
00:52:15It was a tightly knit group, a highly accountable group, a lot of fun now, a lot of fun within
00:52:21that group.
00:52:22We, you know, we took ourselves seriously, but never too seriously.
00:52:25And we were able to separate the pressure of the day with the actual, what is pressure anyway?
00:52:33Pressure to me should be a motivator.
00:52:35Expectations, that is a word that should motivate.
00:52:37It should never deter or cause you to cower.
00:52:40And this group here ran towards pressure and expectations, and that's why they were so good.
00:52:46You know, Joe, as a way to wrap this up and just bring it back to your great honor coming
00:52:51up, and the point to be made, again, is I think all eight names on this should and will at
00:52:57some point be in Cooperstown, and everyone's just going to have to get to it at some point.
00:53:02Unfortunately, it all doesn't happen at the same time.
00:53:04Sure.
00:53:04You were employed, you've mentioned Andrew Friedman's name a couple of times.
00:53:08The Cubs were Theo Epstein, who was also the architect for Breaking the Curse with the Red Sox.
00:53:16I assume someday Andrew Friedman and Theo Epstein are going to be on this ballot.
00:53:21Should they be?
00:53:22What stands out to you about two people who are thought of as maybe the great architects of this century?
00:53:28Yeah, they both deserve it.
00:53:30Absolutely.
00:53:30I first interviewed with Theo for the Red Sox job when Tito got it, and that was, what, 2004?
00:53:38I was still with the bench coach with the Angels and had an interview with him and Jed Hoyer and
00:53:43Josh Burns out in Arizona.
00:53:46Great night, great day.
00:53:47I think it was at the Phenetian.
00:53:49Not the Phenetian.
00:53:49It might have been.
00:53:50No, the Biltmore.
00:53:51Anyway, we had this great discussion, ended up going to dinner, and after that, I'd say, man, this would be
00:53:56a wonderful group to work with because there was a lot of the sensibilities were really
00:54:00matched up because, you know, Theo also and Jed, they also have a strong sense of what happened before.
00:54:07They're very analytically motivated, intellectually motivated.
00:54:10However, they have not lost sight of what came before and how the game has actually operated.
00:54:16So that really stood out about me with them.
00:54:18And then when I was with the Cubs, that initial meeting we had at Navarre Beach before the 2016 season,
00:54:272015, all we did was sit in some comfortable chairs on the beach down there, had a couple tall Miller
00:54:32lights.
00:54:32And we were just kind of rehashing that first meeting, but that was like 10 years before that.
00:54:37So it was comfortable.
00:54:38They're bright.
00:54:39But they have a great balance about them.
00:54:42And that, to me, really stood out about them.
00:54:45Very supportive.
00:54:47And then going back with Andrew, we were growing together at that point.
00:54:51That was my first job, and that was his first job, too.
00:54:54And we actually lived close to one another in South Tampa.
00:54:57So we'd go out at night also because our spring training actually was at Outland Field, which God bless.
00:55:02I was so grateful that my first spring, I loved that place.
00:55:05So anyway, Andrew, we would go out.
00:55:06We'd go out and have something to drink, and Matt would be there and some other guys.
00:55:10So there was like this great bonding component of it, too.
00:55:14Andrew, even younger at that point.
00:55:16But the thing about him that stood out to me, he is a good, great evaluator.
00:55:22He's a good scout.
00:55:22I say, Andrew, you're a good scout because he would break stuff down to me.
00:55:26And I had been a scout, and I've been around a lot of great scouts.
00:55:28And I thought, this guy is really good at breaking stuff down.
00:55:32That's what I thought.
00:55:33And argumentative, damn, we had the greatest arguments.
00:55:35I argued with him probably more, I did, than I did with Theo.
00:55:39It was just a different time, a different vibe.
00:55:41And like I said, we were just coming up together.
00:55:43So they're both brilliant.
00:55:46I consider them both good friends.
00:55:48Andrew, we and he and I started.
00:55:50And to build what we did in Tampa Bay, that's kind of special.
00:55:53I felt almost like Branch Rickey, you know, commandeering the Dodgers at some point, or the Cardinals.
00:55:58You know, he's just like, you're at the grassroots of the whole thing.
00:56:00And then with Theo, again, not having won in so many years, and how precisely he put things together.
00:56:08Yes, they both belong there.
00:56:10They have the same attributes.
00:56:12And then again, they could be diverse at times in their personalities.
00:56:15But brilliant at what they do.
00:56:17And they have the ability to be both old and new school, meaning that they are in school.
00:56:25Well, anybody who watched this was in school.
00:56:28We learned a lot over the last half hour, which is always true when it comes to talking baseball with
00:56:34Joe Madden.
00:56:35Joe, thanks for being on the show.
00:56:37And once again, the New Era Committee ballot, December 6th, the eight men on it are all incredibly distinguished and
00:56:45historic.
00:56:45Joe Madden is one of them.
00:56:47Joe, congratulations.
00:56:47No matter what happens, I'm making that ballot, which we should all celebrate because of how talented the ballot is.
00:56:54And good luck with what comes out on December 6th.
00:56:59Thank you, Joe.
00:57:00Thanks, John.
00:57:00And listen, I'll continue to read you guys on a daily basis.
00:57:03Keep up the good work.
00:57:04It gives us, Chunky, something to look forward to on a more important.
00:57:07I automatically look back there to see if you guys got a column or not.
00:57:10Because that, see, the column, the real, the column, this is really a thing of the past.
00:57:15The person that could really give kind of an outside perspective, inside, but then again, outside.
00:57:21And you're able to dig deeper than most.
00:57:23And that's what I really appreciate.
00:57:25Thank you, Joe.
00:57:26Thanks.
00:57:27Joe, all the best.
00:57:28Thank you again.
00:57:29You guys be well.
00:57:30See you down the road.
00:57:30Thanks, Joe.
00:57:31All right, man.
00:57:31Be well.
00:57:38John and I, of course, thank Joe Maddon and congratulate him on his great distinction on being on the Contemporary
00:57:45Hall of Fame ballot.
00:57:46John, hit or error?
00:57:49I'm going to give an error to both players and MLB.
00:57:54You know, I know we haven't even started this lockout, which everybody knows is coming December 1st.
00:57:58But there's no reason for this.
00:58:01Everybody's doing great, except for Joe, who didn't get any sleep.
00:58:05But everybody else is doing great.
00:58:08You know, I mean, please.
00:58:10Look, teams are being sold for $4 billion that were purchased for under $200 million.
00:58:15So you get a 20 times return on your investment.
00:58:20That's pretty good.
00:58:22The players' salaries are astronomical at this point.
00:58:27You know, I'm sure they'd like to make more.
00:58:29I'm sure the teams would like to sell them for more.
00:58:31But both sides are doing great.
00:58:33So I don't want to see a lockout.
00:58:36We are going to see one.
00:58:37And I certainly don't want to see both sides sniping at each other.
00:58:41How about doing a little compromising instead?
00:58:44Yeah, you know, you hope wiser heads.
00:58:47John, both you and I, we make our living out of baseball.
00:58:49It's harder to do, obviously, when there's no baseball.
00:58:52So there is some desire and selfishness that I join you in with that.
00:58:57Look, I keep telling everyone I'm agnostic.
00:59:01Like, I'll cover a sport that has a cap.
00:59:03I'll cover a sport that doesn't have a cap.
00:59:05I am anti-cap in all sports.
00:59:08Either we believe in capitalism or we don't.
00:59:10Like, there's no cap on how much Steve Cohn can make at .72.
00:59:15I don't know why there should be a cap on how much Juan Soto can make or Tarek Skubal.
00:59:19That seems unfair to me.
00:59:20But again, if we get a cap, I'll cover a sport with a cap, you know, as our brethren do
00:59:26in the other leagues.
00:59:29And I think there's other ways to work on competitive balance if that's an actual end game for real in
00:59:36this.
00:59:36And I just think that everyone – look at it this way, John.
00:59:39If the players accepted what I think they would consider a draconian offer this last time, this last cap, one
00:59:47that would go into place in 2028, not 2027, you know who would do well over a long period of
00:59:52time?
00:59:53The players – like, everyone's going to do well.
00:59:56Let's just get to doing well without hurting the sport, which I think we're going to do if we miss
01:00:00games and certainly a lot of games.
01:00:03John, can I give a hit to the San Diego Padres?
01:00:05I was thinking about this.
01:00:08Did the Padres play the best against the Dodgers in 2024 and the Brewers in 2026?
01:00:14Like, can I make a case that they were the second-best team in those two years, that a team
01:00:18that's never won a World Series, that the only teams that really – you know, the Dodgers had to go
01:00:24to five games in a five-game series in the 2024 DS, and the Padres were actually up two games
01:00:30to one.
01:00:31And they had them on the brink.
01:00:33They beat the Brewers in a game, and they really were in both of those games in Milwaukee.
01:00:39If Ty Francis' ball doesn't hit the catwalk, do they win?
01:00:42They were just on the edge with the best relief pitcher in the world on the mound in Mason Miller,
01:00:48and they couldn't finish him off.
01:00:49You know, what a great at-bat by Jackson Churio and others in that inning.
01:00:53But, you know, the Padres – this is the greatest era in Padres history.
01:00:57They make the playoffs almost every year.
01:01:00They're a top team almost every year.
01:01:02They've created a great fan base out of there where they draw over three million home fans.
01:01:07Just – I know people talk about – like, anytime I bring up the Padres because A.J. Preller is
01:01:12just a polarizing figure, they talk about, oh, do you see the cliff they're about to fall off of with
01:01:17the Bogarts contract and the Machado contract and the Tessies?
01:01:20And I'm like, right, but before they fall off the cliff, they've been incredibly relevant.
01:01:25And usually the person who's telling me that works for one of the most irrelevant teams in the sport, you
01:01:30know, like some team that loves itself because it's so soundly logical and analytical.
01:01:35And I go, yeah, you know what they've done?
01:01:37They've created lifelong Padre fans in San Diego over the last five to seven years.
01:01:42And is there a Cliff Thelmer and Louise Cliff coming?
01:01:45Sure, there's a Thelmer and Louise Cliff coming.
01:01:47But until then, they've been right there, and I would make a case, the second best team in the sport
01:01:54in both 24, not the Yankees who played in the World Series, and in 26, not the Rays who played
01:01:59in the World Series.
01:01:59They stood up better to the eventual world champions than anyone else.
01:02:03Yeah, I mean, Pat Murphy said it on our podcast last week.
01:02:06They were as good as us, he said.
01:02:08I'm not sure about that.
01:02:09I think the Brewers were the best team.
01:02:10I think he's being a little kind there, but that was their toughest competitor.
01:02:15Certainly the catwalk or the roof, whatever Ty France hit, certainly was a big break for Milwaukee that helped them
01:02:23win that series.
01:02:25And the Padres, look, everyone says small market, even if you say it's mid-market, they sold for $3.9
01:02:33billion after spending all that money on these players and exciting the fans and now selling out.
01:02:38It's a strategy, even though they haven't won the World Series, they're in the playoffs most years, they win rounds
01:02:44most years, and they've excited the entire city.
01:02:49A little bit of that is the football team ridiculously, foolishly, stupidly moved away 90 miles up the road.
01:02:56You know, that never should have happened.
01:02:59I'm glad baseball doesn't do that.
01:03:02But they did a great job.
01:03:04I mean, is every deal a winning deal in the eyes of these irrelevant franchises?
01:03:09A Bogert's for $285,000, Machado a second time for $300,000?
01:03:12Maybe not, but the team sold for $3.9 billion by exciting the fan base.
01:03:18So, yes, I'm with you.
01:03:19Give them credit.
01:03:21Yeah, I think that they've been one of the winners of the 2020s, you know, by changing their perception as
01:03:29a real force and with a real strong fan base.
01:03:33Our producer, Tommy Hogan, as always, we got up very, very early in Vegas.
01:03:37And, Tommy, thank you for making this happen so quickly.
01:03:39He's great.
01:03:40He makes this possible every week.
01:03:43Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, please download, rate, and review us.
01:03:47The New York Post YouTube sports page, please give us a view.
01:03:51And we're off and running, unfortunately, in what's probably going to be an abridged offseason.
01:03:55And we'll review it all and look into it all if you stick with us on the show with Joel
01:04:00Sherman and John Heyman.