- 12 minutes ago
An undercover sting exposed corrupt networks permitting banned BS4 diesel buses in Delhi-NCR during pollution curbs. Experts called for tech use and citizen action.
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00:00Let's raise the big questions on the show tonight.
00:02No enforcement, no accountability.
00:04Is that the mantra?
00:06Who is actually going to end this pollution nexus that exists on the ground?
00:10When will this fight against pollution actually become a priority?
00:14We'll walk the talk and not just words but action.
00:18Yasuo Varda Nazar, former IPS officer, is with us.
00:21Ronak Sutaria is CEO, Respirator Living Sciences.
00:25And Harinder Dhingra is environmentalist and RTI activist.
00:28I appreciate both of you, all three of you joining us.
00:32Yasuo Varda Nazar, let me come to you because at the end of the day,
00:35enforcement means people on the ground, including the police,
00:39recognizing what the law says and enforcing the pollution norms for cars.
00:44As our sting operation has shown, operators are claiming payments of 60,000, 70,000,
00:51including for passing red lights, handing over to cops.
00:54will ensure the passage of BS4 diesel buses, despite the grab restrictions.
00:59It suggests that there is either no enforcement or very little enforcement or accountability on the ground.
01:07Well, forget about the enforcement.
01:09I think this is an organized racket in which the RTOs, the policemen, the police guys all are involved.
01:19But the most important part is that after the sting operation, which I've seen is absolutely brilliantly done,
01:26the person who should be dismissed is the chief of the committee of the air quality management.
01:34I mean, try and appreciate, Rajdeep, that the committee for air quality management was made after much thought and deliberation.
01:42And the chairman is an IS Babu, as usual.
01:45It's never a pollution authority guy who's given the enforcement powers.
01:54They have the entire army behind them.
01:58They have all the state's environment secretaries.
02:01Tell me, don't they know about these buses, the list of buses who are passing through?
02:07Don't they know that who are the owners, who are the ones who have been issued the BS6 standards because
02:16it has been, you know, banned?
02:18No, but isn't that a responsibility of the police also?
02:22Why are you putting it only on the babus at the moment?
02:24The cops are on the ground.
02:26No, I said it's an organized racket involving the RTO and the police.
02:30But do you think that it's enough to suspend a couple of sub-inspectors from the RTO department and these?
02:38Are these enough?
02:39No.
02:40It's a racket which can easily be exposed and which can easily be handled if the CAQM does its job.
02:48No, no, no.
02:48I'm not talking about sub-inspectors.
02:50Can such a widespread bribery network, Mr. Azad, operate without the knowledge of senior police officers?
02:57Well, it can.
02:59It can.
03:00It can, certainly can, because I don't think that everyone is involved in this kind of a racket.
03:05But what I'm saying is, why don't you use technology?
03:09Why don't you use RFID?
03:10Why don't you use automatic recognition at these various places?
03:15What is CAQM doing?
03:18It has the enforcement powers.
03:20It has almost all the powers which has been given to them.
03:24So why are they there?
03:26Why isn't a police and authority guy there?
03:30Why isn't a police guy over there to see that the enforcement is correct?
03:34No, no, but Mr. Azad, our investigation is claiming that operators claim they receive advanced telephone warnings whenever an enforcement
03:43of flying squads are conducting inspection.
03:46So I'm saying this racket network clearly involves questions about the integrity of the police, the intelligence, the enforcement operations
03:54across the board.
03:55I mean, you need a complete overall.
03:58Those without saying.
04:01But I'm saying, are you going to catch the small fish or the fish at the top?
04:06Why don't you get the names of who can get all this?
04:10If you have all the environment secretaries at your back and command, can't you get the names of all these
04:16operators?
04:17Can't you get the name of all the politicians who are owning these buses?
04:20Can't you get exactly the list of all those people, all those buses which are running as per BS6 or
04:28BS4?
04:29It's very simple to find out.
04:32Absolutely very simple.
04:33Why is it not being done?
04:35Okay.
04:36I've heard you loud and clear.
04:38Ronak Sutaria, CEO of Esperer Living.
04:40Are you surprised with what is being shown?
04:43Do you believe that this crackdown when it comes to transportation, which many surveys show is one of the bigger
04:49causes of pollution,
04:50that there isn't the will to enforce some of the regulations on the ground?
04:56Yeah, hi, Rajdeep.
04:57Thanks for having me on the show.
04:59I think the SMOX syndicate, I think what you all found out, and especially the numbers that if it is
05:0550,000 to 60,000 per bus,
05:07I was just looking at some aggregate numbers.
05:10There are 2 lakh BS4 buses and trucks flying in the NCR, or at least present in the NCR region.
05:17I mean, if you just put the number of 2 lakhs and 60,000, I mean, we are looking at
05:22a staggering number of 1,000 crores,
05:24which is part of this entire syndicate operation.
05:27You know, so breaking down a 1,000 crore operation, I was looking at the enforcement strength,
05:33and it looks like the Delhi Transport Police maximum has about a 900 sanctioned strength.
05:39to take on 2 lakh buses, the manual, I mean, the strength that has been sanctioned seems to be very,
05:47very underwhelming.
05:49I think like the previous IPS officer mentioned, really speaking, technology has been developed, it's evolved.
05:58I mean, the automatic number, you know, recognition has been implemented in London
06:03for this specific purpose of low emission zones, and they got a 95% compliance.
06:09Explain that to us. What do they do in London, for example?
06:14So, London has implemented an ultra low emission zone,
06:17where instead of implementing it across a 15,000 square kilometer region,
06:22which is comparable to Delhi NCR,
06:25they created pockets of low emission zones,
06:28which were found to be highly vulnerable based on the population spread,
06:34where schools, hospitals, senior citizens were found to be most present,
06:39and they ensured that you get a 95 to 99%
06:43of vehicular pollution compliance,
06:45and they've actually done it.
06:47So, London and Brussels now in front of us in the last four years
06:50have implemented their low emission zones
06:52and got a 99% compliance.
06:55How do they get the 99% compliance?
07:00Is it with tough enforcement?
07:02Rajdeep, it has been on the back of very, very rigorous technology,
07:06which actually CAQM should have implemented.
07:09There is no reason why, you know,
07:12the two lakh buses could have vehicle trackers.
07:15There's no reason we should not know where every single BS4 bus is
07:19in the city or in the region.
07:22You know, vehicle tracking is happening now for the last 10 to 15 years.
07:26It should have been implemented.
07:27It costs 2,000 rupees to put a vehicle tracker on any of these buses.
07:32You know, it should have been implemented across the board.
07:35I will actually venture to say that even the BS6 vehicles,
07:40you know, there's a real world emissions test done
07:42where they found that even if you are BS6,
07:45you could be having emissions which are 14 times,
07:48between 4 times to 14 times of the lab reported BS6 emissions.
07:55So the battle will not be over if we only keep BS4 out.
07:59And the BS6 emissions test was done over a 1 lakh tailpipe
08:04real world emissions test.
08:06You know, it's not a small sample.
08:08100,000 vehicles, tailpipes in the real world were tracked.
08:12Emissions were found to be 4 times what the manufacturers have reported.
08:16And this is for BS6.
08:18So we are in for the long haul.
08:20You know, just transitioning from 4 to 6 is a part of the story.
08:23But I will say, you know, I'll conclude over here
08:26that the officials who are supposed to enforce the BS4 ban
08:30need to be made aware that the BS6 vehicles are 90% less polluting,
08:3590 to 95% less polluting than the BS4.
08:39You know, so the 50,000 that they are taking
08:41as part of what you found, you know, they need to be made aware
08:45that they are allowing vehicles which are 95% more polluting
08:49from NOx and PM.
08:50It's a staggering number.
08:52Right.
08:53I just want to bring in also Harinder Dhingra.
08:55Mr. Dhingra, you have one PIL concerning the Aravallis
08:59in the High Court in which construction activity is prohibited
09:03till a final decision is taken.
09:05We've seen even with the Aravallis,
09:08you had to actually take your battle to the street,
09:11make it a citizen's movement.
09:12With pollution, is that what we are going to have to do?
09:15Make this some kind of a citizen's movement.
09:18Wherein, you know, it's not going to,
09:20the enforcement authorities are going to have to wake up
09:23and smell not the smoke but the coffee.
09:27Thank you so much.
09:27Do you believe that that's going to,
09:28is it possible to do that, you believe, with pollution
09:31like what you've done with the Aravallis?
09:33Yes, it's possible.
09:34Thank you so much for having me in the show.
09:37What you have done is a sting operation is excellent.
09:40The things in Gurugama, Faridabad are equally worse
09:45than the one you have done it.
09:47People don't have their B6 buses.
09:50In schools and the universities and other,
09:53the P4 buses are playing.
09:54Nobody is chalaning anybody.
09:56There is no accountability.
09:57As far as the Aravalli issue is concerned,
10:00there is a construction ban on the Aravalli
10:02as per the Honourable High Court Order of 13th February 2020.
10:06But the construction is going on.
10:08The mining is there.
10:09As a single person or as aware citizens,
10:13certain people can go and report the matter.
10:15But what happens is when the high and mightiest
10:18do not follow the rule of the law,
10:21then the problems arise.
10:22In the one case, in our case, in Gurgaon,
10:25we have a forest minister, environment minister,
10:27who is building 20 acres of farmhouse in the Aravallis.
10:30If they get the permission, CLUs to do that,
10:33who is going to show?
10:34Your minister is building 20 acres of farmland
10:38in a prohibited area in the Aravallis?
10:40Yes, catchment of Aravalli.
10:42That's an area, Gairatpur Bas,
10:46where he has been given CLU by his department.
10:50My RTI reply says that he doesn't have the water connection,
10:54he doesn't have sewer connection,
10:56the road is not there of 40 meters,
10:57which is required to be there.
10:59But still he was given not 20 acres of land.
11:01How many trees are going to be,
11:03they are going to fell the trees for that?
11:05So the high and mighty,
11:07it has to be people movement,
11:09as you rightly said it.
11:10People have to come,
11:11like in December we did.
11:12We made candle marches,
11:14we did candle marches,
11:15we organized seminars,
11:16we tried to make awareness available
11:20to all the villages we went to in Jaipur.
11:23So there's Aravallis from here till Mount Abu.
11:25We were interested in saving it.
11:27So you're saying,
11:29you're saying this needs to be a citizen movement,
11:31you can involve,
11:32you know schools are closed today,
11:34in several parts now we've been told,
11:36hybrid model take children home,
11:38you're going to have to involve school children,
11:40parents, teachers,
11:42you need a vote bank.
11:44The point I'm coming to at the end of the day,
11:46to get our politicians to wake up,
11:48you're going to have to link it,
11:50in a way to the power that people,
11:51that if you don't give me clean air,
11:54I'm not going to vote for you.
11:55You rightly said it in,
11:58in December what happened in Jaipur,
12:00was worth seeing it.
12:01People from villages came,
12:03people from villages in Gurgama,
12:04people from villages in Rivadi,
12:07they came onto the streets,
12:09they demonstrated against the Supreme Court order,
12:11they raised their voices,
12:13even the Honorable Chief Justice was,
12:14was very nice to take note of the,
12:18public rising against this kind of,
12:19I take your point,
12:21I take your point,
12:21just a final word from you,
12:23Mr. Azad,
12:25do you believe,
12:26that anything will change,
12:27or we'll be back next year,
12:28same place,
12:29same time,
12:29another sting,
12:30operation,
12:30government will say,
12:34I absolutely agree with you Rajdeep,
12:38nothing will change,
12:39and that's why I'm so happy,
12:41what Mr. Harinder Dhingra has said,
12:43and what the earlier CEO spoke,
12:46unless you catch the guys at the top,
12:49nothing will happen,
12:51Supreme Court made the Committee,
12:53for Air Quality Monitoring,
12:55what does it do,
12:56it does nothing,
12:58it has an army of people,
12:59an army of secretaries under them,
13:02it doesn't have a pollution board officer,
13:05as the head,
13:06it has an IS Babu,
13:07who has done no enforcement,
13:10can't they make up technology,
13:13can't they make up,
13:14they were eating samosas,
13:15they were eating samosas,
13:16and having teas in the conferences,
13:18they were not inviting objections,
13:20objections,
13:21exactly,
13:22so they are not,
13:23they can't distinguish between,
13:25BS4 and BS6,
13:27and tell me,
13:28that BS4 vehicles in Delhi,
13:31don't make pollution,
13:33or emission,
13:34the most critical thing,
13:35is the emission standard,
13:38whether it's BS6,
13:39or BS4,
13:40and your pollution certificate,
13:42only measures,
13:44the smoke opacity,
13:45it does not mention the,
13:47it does not measure,
13:48the nitrous oxide,
13:49which is the most critical part,
13:52so we are behind,
13:54in our own,
13:55you know,
13:55methodology,
13:56what we do,
13:57it's the top,
13:58who has to be caught,
14:00you dismiss this CAQM,
14:02because it is doing nothing,
14:04it is just leaving everything,
14:06and we are going to come up,
14:08with the same situation,
14:10next year,
14:11if we leave it to them,
14:13okay,
14:13I'm going to leave it there,
14:14those are sobering thoughts,
14:16to ponder over,
14:17clearly,
14:18enforcement,
14:19and accountability,
14:20is needed,
14:21heads must roll,
14:23this thing,
14:24operation,
14:24is only the tip of the iceberg,
14:26the truth of the matter,
14:27is the network,
14:28is spread wide,
14:29and breaking it,
14:31will require political will,
14:33do you really have,
14:34the political will,
14:35to target the pollution nexus,
14:37we'll wait and see,
14:38I appreciate,
14:39my guests joining me,
14:40on that big story,
14:41we will keep tracking,
14:42this air emergency,
14:44in this country,
14:44we will keep tracking,