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Experts examine allegations involving Nvidia CEO and Chinese intelligence targeting semiconductor networks and export control breaches.
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00:00Joining me on the show tonight, Jitin Jain, cyber security expert, Michael Patrick Muldroy
00:05is a former deputy assistant secretary of defense, retired CIA and U.S. Marine president.
00:12He's joining me from Washington, D.C. Andrew K.P. Leung is a China strategist and analyst.
00:19He's joining me from Hong Kong. Michael, I'm going to begin with you.
00:23Did the Trump administration ignore a national security warning about Jensen Huang?
00:29It's so good to be with you, Maui, your fellow guest and your audience.
00:34It's unclear because if this has apparently been going on for over a year, if the FBI had suspected that
00:43this person was an intelligence officer,
00:46and obviously they have, they usually do what's called a defensive briefing.
00:50So they usually take the individual if they believe they do not know that they're a target of an intelligence
00:57operation.
00:57They usually bring that individual in and inform them.
01:00So the question I would have, and we don't have the answers yet, is did they believe he was participating
01:06in this willingly?
01:09Because it doesn't make sense why they didn't actually inform him as soon as they knew that this was the
01:16case.
01:17The commerce secretary who received a memo, the supposed memo speaking about the link, why didn't he act then?
01:26The question will be asked to Donald Trump's administration what happened post that memo was received by the commerce secretary.
01:33Did they go ahead with all their dealings with Jensen Huang's Nvidia or was that put on hold?
01:43Because his dealing with Jensen Huang is now under scrutiny.
01:50Yes, and I think that's a very fair question.
01:52They ultimately had an obligation since this individual, we believe, the FBI believes, was being run by the Chinese government
02:03against one of the most significant CEOs in the world.
02:07Nvidia is not just a company.
02:09If things happen to Nvidia, it shakes the global economy.
02:13And this individual was not just an associate of the White House, of the president.
02:18He was getting on Air Force One and traveling to Beijing with the president.
02:23So I think the questions that are going to be asked are going to start with, why didn't you brief
02:29Mr. Huang about the threat when you knew it was happening?
02:34Why did you allow him to get on the plane?
02:38Why did you allow him in the White House?
02:41Certainly, if this was the case.
02:42So we'll have to see the answers to these questions.
02:45But this is very significant.
02:47I mean, we are a main adversary of the United States is China.
02:52We're at a race with China to develop the most effective artificial intelligence, super intelligence eventually.
03:01And so this is really important.
03:03The access to the White House, the lobbying for China, for example, are all things that I think both parties
03:09in Congress are going to ask about.
03:11Andrew Kupi Leung, how did a Chinese university already blacklisted by the US manage to acquire restricted Nvidia chips?
03:26Andrew Kupi Leung, if you heard me, sir.
03:28Well, I didn't know you were addressing me.
03:31Sorry.
03:31Well, I think it has been reported that the so-called higher-end chips, the H200, was mentioned in a
03:42memo to the Commerce Secretary.
03:44Of course, it's in Trump's cabinet.
03:48And then it appeared that even at one time, President Trump was briefed on it.
03:56And then it also has been reported that Trump authorized this sale of the H200 chips and then taking a
04:0925% cut.
04:10Now, this is a report.
04:12Of course, I have no means of verifying that.
04:14But if it's true, then the Saga, the Nvidia Saga, is not really reviewing any secrets.
04:27If there is other national security secrets are breached, it remains to be confirmed by the current investigations.
04:41So it's a lot of unknowns at the moment, but be that as it may, there is a lot of
04:45concern across the aisle in the United States.
04:50And of course, the narrative that China somehow only relies on this either stealing or absorbing other countries' intellectual property
05:04to propel its advances in high-end technologies.
05:10But, Andrew K.P. Leung, is China exploiting academic institutions as a backdoor to circumvent American technology restrictions?
05:23Well, I think that all countries are, as far as espionage is concerned, I think no country can come out
05:33and say it's not involved in any kind of espionage.
05:38It is as old as the mountains.
05:41But I think as the present case is concerned, a lot of the criticisms, accusations, and fears remain to be
05:49confirmed.
05:49But then the report is quite troubling that, in fact, there was a report made in advance, I think, before
05:58President Trump's recent visit to Beijing, to his commerce secretary.
06:03And then his commerce secretary, in fact, believed Trump on that, and it was ignored.
06:10And then another report also said that Trump probably authorized the release of the H-200 chips to China and
06:20allowing the White House to take a 25% cut.
06:24But if these reports are true, then it's very, very troubling because it is corruption in high places and not
06:32so much as espionage.
06:34But I think as far as espionage is concerned, there is no doubt that there is an affair.
06:39And even Chen Xin Wang came out openly, write an open letter to his wife and family apologizing for this
06:51affair.
06:52But whether this affair involved the kind of leaking of national security data or information remains to be investigated.
07:04Yes, there are a lot of unknowns. I agree with you, Andrew Kupilung.
07:08So let me bring in Jitin Jain here.
07:10Jitin, you know, even as the story, the developments come in this story, one thing is being discussed increasingly is,
07:22is there some kind of an AI bubble?
07:24And if that is the case, then could Chinese intelligence have targeted NVIDIA through people rather than technology?
07:32Of course, as my fellow panelists were saying, you know, the question is, obviously, there was an affair.
07:38But whether that affair was by chance or by Chinese design is the question.
07:42Obviously, it was, you know, it is beyond, you know, reasonable assumption that there was a, you know, foreign intelligence,
07:49honey trapping of Jansa Huang.
07:51Now, the question is whether this whole Megaspeed company itself was orchestrated with a long term plan to target NVIDIA.
07:58Or I believe personally, I think that is not the case here.
08:02The way MSS works is that once they found that somehow, you know, this Megaspeed CEO has got close to
08:08Jansang Wong, she was co-opted in between during that, you know, relationship.
08:12And because under Chinese laws, all Chinese nationals are supposed to, you know, work and cooperate with the Chinese intelligence
08:18agency under the national security law.
08:20They are bound to cooperate.
08:21So, I think she was turned into an asset in between, you know, midway through this affair.
08:25Now, second, there is a bigger question.
08:28Jitin, you know, you have come to a lot of conclusions and I want to know how.
08:33You know, I mean, it is Jansa Huang who is admitting that I had an affair.
08:36He has already apologized.
08:38Now, you know, if there was no affair, this lady would have come up today on a national debate, you
08:43know, national channels across the world and say that, you know, come and investigate me.
08:45There is nothing to hide.
08:46She has completely disappeared.
08:47All her records of China, you know, being a CCTV anchor, all her profiles are gone.
08:51It's disappeared on that rate.
08:53Second, you know, if there was any, the report says that there was electronic interception by CIA.
09:00We do not know where she is.
09:03So, Jitin, is she in custody?
09:05No, she is not in custody.
09:06But the point is, CIA says that there was electronic evidence obtained through electronic interception about she communicating with MSS.
09:13Now, if there was any sort of suspicions, I am 100% sure that CIA's counterintelligence arm FBI would have
09:20200% verified that suspicion before making any assumption and briefing the president.
09:25Once the president was briefed, if Marco Rubio was drafting a note, if Howard looked, it was won before the
09:31Chinese trip, trust me, they have concluded the case investigation would have gone on for a year.
09:36Once they were 200% sure that Jensa Huang has been honey trapped, they would inform the president.
09:42Now, the question is whether they thought he was a conscious source and cooperating with her or he was an
09:48unconscious asset of China.
09:50I think that is the question where Trump says that, you know, he's an honorable man.
09:54I don't think he would have known of it.
09:55Now, second question is, it doesn't matter who knew what was going on.
10:00The question is what they do about it.
10:01If four of the, you know, American so-called secretaries were aware of the entire thing, despite of that, no
10:07export control measures were implemented.
10:08Chase would still sell it to China with 25% discounts.
10:12I think this shows that sometimes this honey trap and foreign intelligence targets are not about stealing passwords or technology.
10:18Sometimes they're also about shaping, you know, policies, influencing policies, you know, circumventing this thing.
10:25And trust me, Maria, in this age, it is almost impossible to, you know, protect national security while your most
10:33strategic assets are sitting in the boardrooms of private companies.
10:37So, people can make seven, eight-front companies across the world.
10:40They can, you know, purchase restricted items on the name for research for universities, you know, NGOs and all those
10:46things, reroute them through seven, eight countries, and then take them back to universities like this Northwestern University in China,
10:52which is also called one of the seven sons of defense working with, closely with Chinese military intelligence.
10:57So, it is nearly impractical, impossible to actually, you know, carry out export control.
11:03You can restrict, you can delay, you can deny, but it is not.
11:08But Jitin, is this appearing to be a case where Jensen Huang's position is untenable within NVIDIA?
11:14But because he is the founder, he is the chief executive, he is the man running the show, nobody will
11:19question it and maybe he'll continue being the CEO.
11:23I mean, you could call out Jensen Huang for, you know, having the moral lapse of judgment.
11:29But imagine he is not just an ordinary CEO.
11:32He is, NVIDIA sits at the heart of US AI race.
11:36It is NVIDIA which helps America hold the complete near monopoly of these H200 chipsets.
11:42Without NVIDIA, there is no US monopoly over GPUs.
11:45So, I think you don't have to treat him as an ordinary CEO of a private company.
11:49It is Jensen Huang.
11:49He is irreplaceable.
11:51And he decides.
11:52I agree with you.
11:53I mean, the word that you have used, he is irreplaceable.
11:56You don't throw baby with the bathtub.
11:58If he has been honey trapped, you can call it a moral lapse of judgment.
12:01But I think he doesn't deserve to be destroyed.
12:04Because if you do that, you will destroy NVIDIA.
12:06No, but then here is, you know, and this is a question to Michael.
12:10Michael, how would Lutnick, the fact that he is under scrutiny, does show that the entire Trump administration was in
12:19the know?
12:19I would not believe that Howard Lutnick acted on his own.
12:23He did not inform his boss, President Trump.
12:29So, I think these are all questions that the Oversight Committee, certainly after January, when the Democrats take the House
12:36and the Senate, are going to focus on multiple committees.
12:40Because this falls within the jurisdiction of several, whether it's related to the intelligence, oversight committees, commerce, etc.
12:49So, I think these are going to be questions they're going to want to know who knew what when and
12:55what was done about it.
12:57Because this is clearly a national security issue that could have major consequences, not only to our national security, but
13:04also the economy of the United States and around the world.
13:08Because this company is so significant.
13:11So, I think these are questions.
13:12I don't know the answers.
13:13I don't know that there's any real reporting out there right now that would indicate that we do know.
13:21But I do believe, as my fellow guest pointed out, this was a thorough investigation.
13:25By the time you're briefing the Secretary of State, the President of the United States, the intelligence services, and the
13:31law enforcement, such as the FBI, is going to have all other ducks in a row.
13:35So, they're going to know what they believe happened.
13:40And so, we'll have to see if this was a honey trap, which is done often by Russians and Chinese.
13:46And I imagine that's the case, quite frankly, because I can't imagine a financial incentive by this CEO.
13:53So, it was likely something he fell into, and that's what the President has already said.
13:58But when did he find out, and did he disclose it?
14:02That's going to be the other question.
14:03Who disclosed it?
14:04I still would like to know whether there was a defensive briefing, because the normal SOP, if you will, by
14:11the FBI, is once they find out and believe that somebody is unknowingly being run by an intelligence service, especially
14:18a honey trap,
14:19they go to them and tell them, so they can cut it off.
14:23Or get them to cooperate, so they can prosecute the person.
14:26Okay. So, as a former CIA official yourself, when you look at this story, it's a developing story.
14:33There are several facets which are still unraveling.
14:35Here is Jitin, who has come to the conclusion that perhaps, you know, that she turned into an asset for
14:43the Chinese during the course of an affair.
14:49I mean, it's possible.
14:50I don't know one way or the other.
14:51She could be an agent that was sent to do just this.
14:56Obviously, one of China's main focus, the MSS's main focus, is economic espionage.
15:02And that would indicate to me that having assets, having officers, if you will, in key CEO positions, in the
15:12area of which you're trying to steal secrets from, would be also part of their trade craft.
15:18So, I don't know if she was converted as a CEO or she was actually in place there.
15:24I imagine the counterintelligence elements of the CIA and the FBI are looking at that, and then also looking at
15:33her connections.
15:34Because sometimes assets like this, or officers like this, will have connections that will get them focused on after a
15:43revelation like this individual is working for the Chinese government.
15:47You know, what's fascinating here is that their first picture, yes, Jitana, I'm coming to you, first public appearance, in
15:54a way, happened in 2024.
15:56We are in the end of 2026.
16:00Are we to believe that she was being watched by the American intelligence for the last two years, and now
16:07all these details are appearing in the public domain?
16:09And the fact that her entire digital footprints have been erased totally also means that she is perhaps, you know,
16:19if she is gone completely off the radar, where is she?
16:22And who is now questioning her, trying to get more details of her equation with Jensen Huang, and what has
16:34she revealed to the Chinese?
16:37Well, those are all fair questions.
16:39I think if there's an indication that the intelligence service isn't doing this, it just adds to the fact that
16:45she was either, you know, an intelligence officer or somebody who they coerced into doing this for the intelligence service.
16:55So I think those are all things that are going to be looked at.
16:58How was it done?
16:59Where is this person?
17:01And it's just going to add, I think, to the overall case, if you will.
17:0530 seconds quickly, Jitin.
17:08You know, I think this is not the first story which is broken about her.
17:12A year ago, there were a couple of investigative stories in Western media about this whole conduct of Megaspeed, how
17:17they were turning into one of the future customers, NVIDIA, and nobody knew where the chips were going.
17:23Second, there is an even bigger, you know, risk about to explode, a disaster about to happen.
17:29Trump's first policy announcement as a president was the forming of this great Stargate network of bringing all U.S.
17:35tech and AI companies together.
17:37NVIDIA is at the centrality of it.
17:39All the data centers were supposed to be supplied with NVIDIA chips.
17:42Second, this Golden Loon Missile Shield project, this, you know, campaign about Greenland and all.
17:48Now, where will the chips for those data centers come from NVIDIA?
17:52So, if during the pillow talks, this lady was somehow able to access not only the chips, but also some
17:57sort of IP or the embedded, you know, hardware or source code or something.
18:02Then it can impact the entire AI ecosystem.
18:05I agree with you.
18:07I mean, this is far bigger than what it appears right now.
18:09The complete ecosystem at the core, you have poisoned the supply chain itself.
18:12So, whether that happened or not is a different story, but to verify it and then eliminate that risk will
18:17take years for Americans to, you know, digest.
18:20All right.
18:21Jitin Jain, Michael and Andrew, KP Leung, really appreciate your time.
18:25Thank you for joining us.