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Sonia Gandhi's memoir sparks debate over her political legacy. Panel discusses
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your primetime destination news,
00:04newsmakers, talking points Friday night. Our big talking point is that NVIDIA espionage
00:09scandal that's dominating global headlines. What lies next in the US-China AI race? Also,
00:16our special Friday night roundtable, the Sonia Memoir Editor's Roundtable is coming up on the
00:23news today. Lots of voices on that as well. But first, as always, it's time to kick off the show
00:31with the nine headlines at night. After over 20 hours of a server outage, Microsoft finally
00:39completes recovery actions across parts of its affected infrastructure in the Asia-Pacific region.
00:44More than 4.3 crore users affected by the Microsoft server outage.
00:51Hours after Jensen Wang resigns, his NVIDIA CEO reports say Wang had an affair with another
00:56NVIDIA employee. The revelation follows two other extramarital affairs that eventually led
01:01to his resignation. Prime Minister Modi's address at the Kisan Tak India Today platform sparks
01:10political war. Congress MP Priyanka Gandhi-Wadra slams Prime Minister over his constitution in
01:16pocket jive. Says institutions were being systematically destroyed by the BJP.
01:23Leader of the opposition, Rahul Gandhi, makes a sensational claim. Claims Prime Minister Modi
01:28has got his phone tapped. BJP goes all glands blazing. Tells Rahul, show proof of charges and
01:33not scoot and shoot.
01:37Delhiites continue to breathe toxic air of the 59 monitoring stations at recorded data. 16 register
01:43air quality in the severe category. IIT Delhi records the worst air quality index at 452.
01:51Prime Minister Modi inaugurates a pink line of the Bengaluru metro. Credit war erupts.
01:56DKS Sarkar claims bearing 84% of the metro cost. BJP rebuts the Congress charge.
02:05SIR showdown intensifies in Uttar Pradesh ahead of Assembly poll. Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath directs BJP leaders to reconnect missing
02:13Hindu voters.
02:15Samajwadi Party urges EC to issue a notice to Adityanath over the claim of 1.27 crore missing Hindu voters.
02:23And a horrific accident leaves at least 24 dead in Assam's Kaziranga. Collision between a minibus and a truck
02:29lead to the fatalities. Assam Chief Minister to visit Kaziranga tomorrow.
02:36And India are bowled out for just 89 by New Zealand in the fourth ODI, suffering their heaviest defeat in
02:42the format in 26 years.
02:57Okay, let's turn to the big breaking story at the moment where over the last 20 hours there has been
03:03absolute mayhem in several offices across the world because of the Microsoft server outage.
03:10Now, after those 20 hours, Microsoft claims it has completed the recovery actions across parts of its affected infrastructure in
03:18the Asia-Pacific region, traffic being gradually restored.
03:22Microsoft says it was seeing improvements in mailbox access and delayed email processing, but some users may continue to experience
03:30intermittent issues.
03:32Its focus is now on extending the recovery actions to affected infrastructure in other regions and on reducing email queues
03:39and backlogs.
03:40So it would seem from that statement that Microsoft has just made that after 20 hours where users had problems
03:48with Microsoft 365 across the world,
03:51that maybe the worst is over and systems and traffic is being gradually restored.
03:58Joining me now is Aishwarya Patil from Business Today who is tracking that story.
04:02Aishwarya, what more can we say now that the worst is over?
04:06The problem has been sorted out because it's been carrying on right through the day.
04:13Yes, of course, the worst is over.
04:14In fact, I just got my emails throughout the day that were seeing a backlog just this evening.
04:22Post 7 p.m. onwards, we saw some recovery.
04:26It did hit across regions, you know, Asia, Pacific, Europe, UK, etc.
04:31So by this afternoon, which is Friday, a lot of these regions, North America and Europe as well, started seeing
04:40some recovery coming in.
04:42And emails, the backlog of emails also getting back.
04:45They also mentioned very clearly that for the next 48 hours, this will be put on hold so that none
04:51of the users really lose their emails that have been seeing some sort of backlog.
04:56So during this downtime, if one has sent an email and it got stuck in this whole process in Microsoft,
05:05they will see a bit of recovery and no emails will be lost.
05:09That was the measure that was taken by Microsoft as well during the downtime of 20 plus hours that we
05:18saw from Microsoft's end.
05:21And many such apps, SharePoint, Outlook, Teams have now begun to sort of work its way back again.
05:28We're seeing tweets across.
05:31Even on X, we're seeing people getting back and saying that now emails have started to come in.
05:36Some even quipped and said that it was a good Friday with less work to do and fewer emails to
05:44track throughout the day.
05:45Okay, I'm going to leave it there. Aishwarya Patil giving us some good news on that Microsoft outage story.
05:51Let's turn from there to our first focus today, the NVIDIA scandal that gets bigger by the day.
05:59The man who turned NVIDIA into a global AI powerhouse, the leading AI chip company across the world, Jensen Wang,
06:08remember, quit the firm yesterday after 33 years at the helm.
06:11The resignation comes in the wake of not just one, two, but now three alleged affairs and allegations of now
06:18diversion of American chips to China.
06:21The scandal has hit NVIDIA shares, but more importantly, it is said to have an impact on the global AI
06:28revolution of our times.
06:30What lies next? We'll have that discussion in a moment. But first, take a look at this report.
06:39Elvis has left the building. The building where he built the world's most powerful AI chip empire, but found himself
06:46becoming the face of a scandal. Or three.
06:53NVIDIA co-founder and CEO Jensen Wang has stepped down after a series of controversies put his leadership under the
06:59scanner.
07:00The fall of one of the most powerful men in tech began with his relationship with Alice Wang that raised
07:06questions far beyond Wang's marriage.
07:10U.S. authorities suspected Alice of having links to Chinese intelligence.
07:14She was the CEO of a Singapore-based data center company, Megaspeed, that had become a major NVIDIA customer.
07:20But American authorities have not yet established that she was a spy, and both NVIDIA and Megaspeed have denied wrongdoing.
07:27The first question assumes something that I have never said and that I don't know to be true.
07:32So you assume that DOJ learns that she is, in fact, a spy. I'm not. Nobody said that. I certainly
07:38haven't said that.
07:39And I don't. All I said a minute ago and all that I think I will say is that, of
07:44course, DOJ is an investigator looking at it.
07:46So there's no conclusions reached by the Department of Justice or by me or by Director Patel around who she
07:53is or is not.
07:55NVIDIA's board initially expressed confidence in Wang, but then announced an independent investigation.
08:01Before the company could deal with this controversy, another emerged, this time involving Kimberly Powell, NVIDIA's vice president of health
08:09care.
08:10Huang and Powell were allegedly seen being affectionate at a hotel in California.
08:15The back-to-back scandals mounted pressure enough to end a 33-year leadership run.
08:19But not long after, his third extramarital affair surfaced.
08:24According to reports, Huang had an intimate relationship with another NVIDIA employee too.
08:29And the fallout is anything but contained.
08:33NVIDIA's shares plunged as much as 14% after the news of Jensen's ouster before recovering some ground.
08:39Over $500 billion have been wiped off its market value since the scandal broke.
08:44The selling spread to AI-related companies, including Micron, Marvel and Corvive, as investors confronted a question that had long
08:52been overlooked.
08:53Can the world's most important AI chipmaker thrive without the man who built it?
08:59Billionaire investor Leo Kogwan has vowed not to buy more NVIDIA stock and back to Ankh, saying he hopes to
09:05invest in his future venture if he launches another AI company.
09:09Rivals AMD, Intel and Broadcom could now see an opening.
09:13NVIDIA CFO Colette Kress has taken over as interim CEO of the $4 trillion company.
09:19The board has begun the search for a permanent successor.
09:22But for a Huang-less NVIDIA, the challenge is to preserve Huang's aggressive growth strategy while reassuring investors that NVIDIA
09:30is bigger than its founder.
09:32Bureau Report, India Today.
09:36So what next in the big NVIDIA scandal?
09:40How will it impact U.S.-China's AI race?
09:43And what could happen to NVIDIA itself, the big company that's at the heart of this gathering storm?
09:52Joining me now, Brian Wong, non-resident honorary fellow, Center for China Analysis at the Asia Society Policy Institute.
09:58Joins us from Hong Kong, Raymond Vickery, former U.S. Assistant Secretary of Commerce, is joining me from Washington, D
10:05.C.
10:05And Jonah Blank, former advisor to President Biden from the National University of Singapore.
10:10Good to have all of you on the show.
10:12Brian Wong, you go first.
10:14What do you think are the immediate implications with everyday fresh revelations coming out in this scandal that perhaps even
10:23as a hint, more than a hint, of Chinese espionage?
10:28Well, thank you very much.
10:29I think it's imperative that we differentiate the signal from the noise.
10:33And as with all of these salacious scandals surrounding celebrities, especially high-profile figures in the tech space, there's a
10:40tendency to mix myth, fact, half-myth and half-fact altogether.
10:44One thing that we know for sure is that regardless of whether or not the espionage allegations are in fact,
10:50you know, to be substantiated, are in fact voracious, one thing that we can know for sure is that there's
10:55going to be a push for greater securitization from both Beijing and also Washington.
10:58And by that, I mean restrictions upon export of advanced models and chips and technologies from Beijing, but also, of
11:05course, a tightening of access to information, access to cutting-edge technologies, to chips, hardware, software, you name it, coming
11:12from Washington.
11:12And so I see these as structural tendencies and forces that, frankly, had long really been cooking under the surface.
11:18And yet, of course, with this particular scandal, you know, those advocating for this position within Washington and Beijing have
11:25gained the upper hand, so to speak, in a political tussle.
11:27So I wouldn't read too much into this scandal, if I could be honest with you.
11:31You're saying you won't read too much into this scandal, to be honest, but, John, this is going to have
11:37repercussions, isn't it, particularly in Washington, given the fact that there are, again, allegations that members of the Trump administration
11:45were informed by the CIA
11:46of potential allegations of Chinese espionage of Alice Wong being used, in a way, by the Chinese to acquire sensitive
11:56information and possible chip technology transfers.
12:00That's right.
12:02The reports are that Mr. Trump was briefed on this over a year ago and took no action, and that
12:11he was reminded by his Secretary of State in May,
12:13and then after that brought Jensen Huang with him to Beijing and took no action apart from reportedly selling over
12:23a million dollars of NVIDIA stock,
12:26and that his Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, was at least highly suspiciously open to the idea of shipping a lot
12:37of very sensitive chips to China.
12:40So the Democrats will be probing all of these things, but the real big picture here is what it means
12:48for the mad race towards ever more powerful AI,
12:53and hopefully that is where this may toss some cold water on a very dangerous pursuit.
12:59Where is that race going, Raymond Vickery?
13:03Because this Chinese-America AI race, many believe, is the defining race of the 21st century.
13:10Do you believe that this now makes that race even more competitive and possibly leads to even greater battles taking
13:22place between the two countries?
13:26Well, yes, I do.
13:29I think that this shows the ill wisdom, the problem of outsourcing American foreign policy to a corporate executive.
13:43The NVIDIA organization controls about 90 percent, 80 to 90 percent of the world's advanced chips in this particular area.
13:56It's the lifeblood of artificial intelligence.
14:00And unfortunately, President Trump and the Trump administration, particularly Secretary Lutnick over at my own agency at Commerce,
14:11have been content really to follow a transactional great man theory of international relations,
14:20much like a real estate deal, where you have the great people who are CEO types, and they decide, and
14:28then you go forward from there.
14:31That's a completely inadequate way to wage peace and prosperity in the world.
14:38And I would submit that the ripple effects of this are going to be very, very wide,
14:46because it's not a case of just being able to replace an ordinary CEO.
14:53President Trump and his administration have founded the U.S. investment in data centers really with this company.
15:05And this company has centralized all the power within John Wong.
15:12He has some 60 direct reports to him, where the average corporate report, direct reports, would be some 12.
15:20So this is a serious matter.
15:22And it's going to have dislocation immediately in Washington.
15:29And hopefully, as saner heads are going to prevail, we're going to get back to some semblance of order and
15:36institutional responsibility.
15:39You know, that's a Washington perspective.
15:42What about the Beijing perspective, Brian?
15:45You're in Hong Kong.
15:46Do you believe, how will China respond?
15:48There's a meeting, of course, between the Chinese president and President Trump, scheduled next week at the APEC summit.
15:54But will issues like this at all, will the AI race at all be raised?
15:58And how will Beijing in general look at these allegations of Chinese espionage?
16:05Well, thank you very much.
16:06I cannot claim to speak on behalf of Beijing, nor do I have the intention to do so.
16:10But if I could be very blunt with you, the primary focus of the Chinese leadership, as far as I'm
16:15aware, is to focus on domestic applications of AI to revitalize economic growth amidst how sluggishly it's performed,
16:22given long-standing challenges of the total factor productivity and over-ossified state-owned enterprise sector, and, of course, concerns
16:29with its aging demographics.
16:31The preoccupations that AI are thus largely internally oriented, they're not, as a country, on a whole, interest in dominating
16:37global AI, reaching ASI,
16:39or achieving all these sort of interesting, sort of far-fetched, outlandish goals that are hypothetically conjured and imagined by
16:47a very small minority of folks in the Silicon Valley as the holy grail.
16:50And in all honesty, for 99.99% of the populations in both China and the US and the world
16:56beyond, I don't think the AI question is a race.
16:58Because what good is this super-frontier, super-zervantic AI model for the average Joe who just needs to figure
17:05out an answer to the question or to find the easiest shortcut to the hospital and medical healthcare services,
17:11which, frankly, are not, you know, widely available or, indeed, affordable in many countries around the world?
17:16So I just don't think there's a race that we should be looking at here, even if certain politicians, certain
17:21tech pros, and, of course, certain members of the security apparatus would like to have us believe that this is
17:25a binary, Manikian struggle.
17:27That's a story. That's a narrative. But let's not let them get away with telling us that story and shoving
17:32it down our throats.
17:33Sir, so very quickly, are you saying, therefore, that the Chinese will just ignore these allegations that are made?
17:39Well, I think if the Chinese were wise, they'd understand that the best means of proving critics wrong is not
17:45to be, you know, deeply vociferous and boisterous and castigating these rumours,
17:50but instead to prove them wrong with facts. And facts often speak louder than protesting rhetoric.
17:57John A. Blank, you know, the recent elections in America saw a public reaction against what was described as corporate
18:05greed.
18:05Do you believe all these allegations are only going to sort of strengthen the belief that corporates are unaccountable, that
18:13their CEOs have much too much power?
18:16And therefore, it's time to sort of in some way control them and their access to political power as well.
18:24Yes, I do. I think the bigger issue is the one that Brian has quite rightly noted.
18:31The American elite narrative is that we must charge ahead to create the most dangerous AI technologies ever imagined,
18:42because if we don't, then China will.
18:45And that narrative was wrong yesterday, and it's been proven wrong today.
18:50China never was as intent on forcing the frontier forward, in part because they're more concerned with actually delivering products
19:01from AI,
19:03but also because they know that whatever American labs come up with, it's much easier for them simply to take
19:10the product than to re-engineer the whole thing.
19:13They can do it through espionage, as they appear to have done with Jensen Huang.
19:17They can do it through a variety of other methods, and that helps explain why this entire narrative,
19:24we have to accelerate the robot apocalypse because China will do it if we won't,
19:29is a false narrative and really needs to be put in the graveyard.
19:34Raymond Vickery, 20 seconds. I know that's a short time, but in the world of AI, we can do that.
19:39If you had to just sum it up, what happens next, very quickly?
19:44I think what happens next is the United States has to fall back and really figure out whether it's going
19:54to have a policy strategy
19:56and partners based on principles going forward, rather than just relying on high-tech executives to make policy.
20:07Okay. Very well put there, Raymond Vickery.
20:10Great to have three very fine voices joining us on this NVIDIA scandal as fresh revelations come in by the
20:18day.
20:18Thank you all very much for being here on the news today. Good to have you.
20:23Thank you for having us.
20:52Thank you for having us.
20:58Sonia Gandhi!
21:00Leads Congress back to power.
21:06Refuses country's top job.
21:09Mera laksha, Pradhan Mantri ka paad nahi.
21:16Sonia Gandhi pens her story.
21:22How will history judge Sonia Gandhi?
21:27Hello and welcome to this week's Editor's Roundtable.
21:32It isn't often that a book dominates the headlines, but that's exactly what's happened this week.
21:39Sonia Gandhi's much-awaited memoir, Belonging, A Journey of Love, has already become a subject of national conversation and, yes,
21:49controversy.
21:49And like many books, it leaves questions answered, but unanswered too, especially on the contentious Gandhi family legacy.
21:59How should we then see this book and the life and times of Sonia Gandhi?
22:04That's our special Editor's Roundtable.
22:07Joining us on it is Prabhu Chawla of the New Indian Express, senior journalist, joins us.
22:13Tavleen Singh, author, columnist, joins us.
22:17Javed Ansari, senior journalist who's tracked the Congress for years, joins us.
22:21And Ashutosh, editor, Satya Hindi, is also with us.
22:25Good to have you all on the show.
22:26I'm going to go question by question.
22:28And the first question I want to pose on this roundtable, has Sonia Gandhi answered her critics on the foreign
22:35origins issue or not?
22:38Tavleen Singh, you've been a critic in recent times of Sonia Gandhi.
22:42Do you believe after reading the book that Sonia Gandhi has answered her critics on that question of foreign origins?
22:49Is that question even relevant anymore?
22:52No, it's not relevant anymore.
22:55And it's not got anything to do with her book.
22:58I don't think she answers it in the book.
23:00But basically, it's an old story now.
23:03She's been a politician in India for, what is it, 20 years or something.
23:08So I don't think that the foreign origins thing matters anymore.
23:12She didn't need to write a book to say that she was Indian.
23:16She has been Indian for a very long time.
23:18No, the reason I keep praising this is that because even after almost having retired from active politics, that hasn't
23:28stopped the BJP from targeting her on her foreign origins even now.
23:32Even after the release of the book, you'll see a lot of BJP spokespersons saying, you know, Sonia Gandhi is
23:40still not Indian enough.
23:43Well, you know, they're just making fools of themselves.
23:46They're harming themselves more than her.
23:48I don't think that that is at all important anymore.
23:51She has shown that she's Indian.
23:54And, you know, I mean, really, if I was in her place, I would have fled long ago back to
23:59Italy after Rajiv was killed and stayed there.
24:02You know, I maybe bought a house in Portofino or, you know, Positano and lived happily ever after.
24:07The fact that she didn't do that was established.
24:11I mean, I think really after Rajiv was killed and she decided to stay, that issue was sorted out.
24:17Interesting the way you put it, because Prabhu Chawla, in the book itself, Sonia Gandhi, after Rajiv Gandhi's assassination, her
24:25sister says, you know, you should come back because you will be targeted.
24:28Your mother-in-law has been assassinated. Your husband's been assassinated. You should come back.
24:33And she says very clearly, I'm not going back. This is my home.
24:37Do you believe, as Tavleen Singh says, that that question has been settled?
24:40Because many believe that this book was written in a way for Sonia Gandhi to answer her critics, who say
24:46that she has never fully embraced this country.
24:53That question, Rajiv, I agree with Tavleen, is totally irrelevant at this point of time.
24:57One should not talk about her foreign origin or whatnot, because she has been elected twice, thrice from the Lok
25:03Sabha, and she was almost becoming a prime minister, which was prevented by Malayam Singh Yadav.
25:08But her book, which you are referring to as a story of love, basically it is a story of love,
25:14agony, and acrimony, because she has put everything together there.
25:18Romance part is very well written. It's dignified. I have not read the full book.
25:21But her foreign origin is settled forever. If the BJP is still raising it, it won't get the many political
25:27dividends now, because it has been raised for many years.
25:30So that's a dead issue.
25:31But I would blame her for raising all sorts of things in the book, which she should not have raised.
25:36Give me an example. Give me an example of one thing. Give me an example, Prabhu Chawla, one thing that
25:41you believe she should not have raised.
25:46For example, Shah Banu issues she's raising there. She's trying to defend, she's trying to say Sanjay Gandhi was responsible
25:52for emergency, because emergency is something which is a dead horse, because emergency was about 50 years ago, and after
25:58that, Congress party has come back to power twice, thrice, they were ruling half the states after that.
26:03So this emergency is not an issue, and you are trying to shift the blame to Menaka Gandhi and Sanjay
26:08Gandhi, and Sanjay Gandhi has a ticket to contest again.
26:12That's the issue which she has revived herself, inviting the criticism again on emergency.
26:18Shah Banu, for example, I know when Arim Mahmoud Khan has been record, what happened, because they didn't want it
26:22to be reversed.
26:24And talking about Machi, the Bhavari Machi, that's the issue with BJP wants to lap it up now.
26:30So these are the three issues we should not have, she should not have raised.
26:33Okay.
26:33That's what I mean, acrimony, agony is there. Yes, she suffered. She was a target of the most vicious attack,
26:39personal attack, which should not have been there.
26:41She has suffered a lot politically, but she, this book is out and out. Two-thirds of this book is
26:47political book. It is a political message for the rest of the country on the eve of elections.
26:51Let me hold up, because many believe it's just the opposite. Two-thirds is personal and a very small, and
26:56I'm going to come to that, much less is political.
26:59But, you know, Ashutosh, Prabhu Chawla is saying she should not have spoken about how she teared up during, after
27:07Babri Masjid demolition.
27:08She shouldn't have referred to Shah Banu. She should have stayed away from the emergency, even though she was very
27:13much part of the Gandhi household,
27:15and therefore seeing what was happening around her. Do you believe that Sonia Gandhi should have stayed away from this?
27:21Because this is bringing me to my second big question. Has Sonia Gandhi played safe on key political issues?
27:28There are those who believe she's played safe, but here is Prabhu Chawla saying she should not even have raised
27:33the emergency of Sanjay Gandhi.
27:36See, Rajdi, first of all, we have to understand that it is the Sonia side of the story.
27:40Why we believe and we think that she should be writing what we think and what we believe.
27:46So, she has narrated her side of the story, whatever she felt.
27:50Either we believe in that whatever she has written is truthful, or we believe in the conspiracy theories,
27:56as many of our critiques must be saying that she's hiding many, many things, that she's not revealing many, many
28:02things.
28:03So, either it's a conspiracy theory, accordingly Sonia has written, or it's a truthful story.
28:07I believe it's a truthful story. And whether we like it, whether we don't like it, she has narrated the
28:12entire story.
28:14See, everybody has a right to differ with it.
28:18But, you know, I think about the foreign origin thing, Rajdeep, I want to say that RSS should get over
28:23from this complex.
28:24RSS celebrate when Rishi Sunak becomes a prime minister in England and Leo Varadkar in Ireland.
28:30But if somebody in India wants to become the prime minister, has no birth origin in India, they have all
28:36kinds of problems.
28:37So, either you celebrate Rishi Sunak being a prime minister, or you celebrate Sonia Gandhi becoming the prime minister.
28:43But still, they are so obsessed with Sonia Gandhi's foreign origin.
28:47That tells me that how exclusionary the ideology of the RSS is.
28:51And this is what the Savarkar has written, that why Hinduism could not spread.
28:56And he has written, he has talked about it, that anybody who had gone beyond sea, he came back, then
29:03they were excluded.
29:04And they have to be, again, Shuddhi Karan Karanaparta, Mahatma Gandhi had gone through, Bal Ganga, Gokhale had gone through
29:11this.
29:11So, I think if RSS has to be, to understand India, they have to get out of this exclusionary, the
29:18part of their ideology, and should believe that a woman married in her real home is Sasural.
29:25So, you are saying that she has settled that argument once and for all with the book.
29:30She has made it very clear that she is very much the Bahurani, or the first Bahu, or she was
29:36called Bahurani in the house.
29:39But the fact is that that argument is settled, but Jameet.
29:42Rajdeep, I'd like to clear one thing. Rajdeep, I'd like to clarify.
29:45Yes, very quickly.
29:46Let me clear one thing.
29:48Yes.
29:48Ashutosh Hashanah is a colleague of mine.
29:50I am not questioning what she has written.
29:52I am questioning interpreting, because more has been written on the social media about the book, number of words, than
29:56they have written.
29:56I'm not questioning what she has written.
29:58I'm doing the interpretation of that.
30:00That is my right to interpret the way I want to interpret.
30:02Ashutosh Hashanah is right.
30:03She has the right to write what she wants to write, but I don't have to believe what she writes.
30:07Okay, that's a different thing.
30:08That's fair enough.
30:09Javed Ansari.
30:10Prabhu, I have, with all due respect, I had no intention of criticizing you.
30:15Sorry.
30:15Okay.
30:16If you thought it so.
30:16Let's not make it Prabhu Chawla versus Ashutosh.
30:19Let's not make it that.
30:20Let's move on.
30:21Let's move on.
30:22No, no, no.
30:22No, no, no.
30:23No, no, no.
30:24Prabhu, it cannot be a dialogue between the two.
30:26There are four people.
30:27Javed Ansari, you know, has she played safe on politics?
30:32For example, when it comes to Narsimha Rao, you know, there was a lot of speculation over
30:38the relationship that Sonia Gandhi at that time had with Prime Minister Rao.
30:42She was seemingly angry with Narsimha Rao for not doing enough in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination
30:49case at the time.
30:50When Narsimha Rao passed away, his body was not allowed to enter the Congress office.
30:55Should she have addressed those contentious issues or has she played safe?
31:00I think on this, she has played safe.
31:05She's held back her punches because there is more than enough evidence to prove that she
31:12was not particular.
31:13Both Narsimha Rao and Sonia Gandhi were not on their, you know, fast dial basis.
31:20They were not very enamored of each other.
31:23But after all, at the end of the day, he was the Congress Prime Minister.
31:27She had a hand in selecting him as the Congress Prime Minister.
31:32And therefore, she couldn't, I mean, she couldn't be seen as damning her own choice.
31:37So therefore, yes, as far as Narsimha Rao is concerned, yes.
31:42But she's also, I think, as, you know, she's been soft.
31:48There were differences as far as Pranam Mukherjee is concerned.
31:54But, you know, she barely mentions Ahmed Patel, someone who has spent a lifetime, you know,
32:00very close to Sonia Gandhi.
32:02I don't see too many references to Ahmed Patel.
32:04There's a feeling that a lot of people who are proximate to her, Ambika Soni, Ahmed Patel,
32:09not mentioned.
32:11On the other hand, as is being pointed out, she gives a lot of details on the emergency,
32:16on Sanjay Gandhi, on Menaka Gandhi.
32:18You know, Tavleen Singh, do you believe there is, there's a sense that she's playing safe
32:24on political issues or being selective in the political issues that she chooses to highlight?
32:29Actually, she hasn't played safe.
32:32She has written about real events, things that are not truthful.
32:38So, for instance, she doesn't, you know, she praises Sanjay Gandhi for being given this,
32:44the Maruti to build, right?
32:46She doesn't go into questioning why, during the Licence Raj, the Prime Minister's son becomes
32:54the first person to be given a chance to make an Indian car.
32:57She doesn't question anything that was done that was wrong during the emergency.
33:03She really doesn't, forget the emergency, she's brought it up because she's writing it
33:07from her point of view.
33:08And it's very good that she should have a point of view, but it has to be based on facts.
33:13And then there are a lot of things that she's not playing safe at all, as far as I'm concerned.
33:18She goes to Gujarat in 2002 and she writes about how horrified she was.
33:23But in 1984, there were dead bodies outside her, in the streets around where she lived.
33:30She could have just stepped out and seen that.
33:34But she does, you know, on 84, though, Tableen Singh, she does make it very clear that she
33:40was going through her own personal trauma, having, on October 31st, carried her bleeding
33:46mother-in-law to the hospital, that she was also going through her own tragedy.
33:51She's not, she's not sort of, she's not, she's not, she feels, she says, I feel for the
33:58Sikhs who died.
33:59No, she's not going through that trauma now.
34:02The book has been written now.
34:04And in retrospect, she actually defends Rajiv and doesn't mention the speech where he justified
34:12the violence.
34:13You know, so I actually think that there's going to be a lot of pushback from the Sikhs because
34:18she's dismissed that as if it was, you know, just a passing thing.
34:23And then suddenly from there, she goes off to Bhagapur and she's horrified by what she sees
34:27in Bhagapur.
34:28So she hasn't played it safe.
34:30There are many, many instances, I have a list, it's too long to read out here, where
34:36she's misread the political situation and, you know, misread the facts or misconstrued
34:43the facts.
34:44Just one little example, for instance, the 2019 election.
34:47She says that 2019 election was lost by the Congress party because Rahul Gandhi ran a terrible
34:54campaign where he went on about Chokidar Chor Hai and they were wandering around Rahul and Priyanka
35:00with Rafal Jets on their campaign vehicle.
35:04And that's why they lost.
35:06She says they lost because, you know, Modi had somehow got cyber bots involved and also
35:13there's a lot in there that is not safe.
35:16And when people sit down to analyze it, she's going to realize one day that she's maybe been
35:23too reckless in the political issues she's raised.
35:27You know, on 84, I just want to repeat what she says, since that's become contentious and
35:32you raised it, Tableen Singh, there.
35:33She says, in my state of disorientation in those days, I had become empty of tears, benumbed
35:39by the experience of violence that had uprooted me, referring to her mother-in-law's assassination.
35:44It was only some years later that I was able to process the enormity and horror of those
35:50events.
35:50You're saying she should have written more and expressed her grief in much more stark
35:56terms.
35:56Am I right?
35:57What about now?
35:58Now she's not suffering from tears, etc.
36:00She should have said that when she looked back on that, it is the only pogrom conducted
36:08by the Indian state.
36:09In Gujarat, Hindus and Muslims died.
36:11In Delhi, in 1984, not one Hindu was killed.
36:16Not one Hindu.
36:18Let me bring in Javed.
36:20Javed, you know, there will be those, you've known Sonia Gandhi well.
36:24The one issue which Sonia Gandhi has been very strong about and has been uncompromising
36:29even compared to perhaps other members of the Nehru Gandhi family in the past, more like
36:35Jawaharlal Nehru in that sense, is on secularism.
36:37Most people say she's very, very, very uncompromising on that.
36:41Tavleen Singh is saying she should have spoken more about 84.
36:46Would you agree with that or do you believe she was not in charge in 84?
36:49It was Rajiv Gandhi's government.
36:50It was not Sonia Gandhi who was the prime minister or in charge.
36:54Do you go along with what Tavleen says?
36:55Because she does mention how she was teary eyed after the Babri Masjid was demolished.
37:00Yeah.
37:01So much as I respect Tavleen, I disagree with what she said.
37:06I think she's, and you've just read out that excerpt from a book where she pours out her
37:12feelings on how she felt about what happened in 84.
37:17I believe that 84 should never have happened.
37:20It's a blot on us, on the entire country.
37:24But she was going through an emotional trauma.
37:26She didn't react.
37:27What about those who had to think about them?
37:29One minute, one minute.
37:31No, no, we're not going through it now.
37:33One minute, one minute.
37:35Has the...
37:35You say that was the only program and you...
37:38This is...
37:39And you say that what happened in Gujarat were both...
37:42I mean, those who've covered that will know better.
37:45It was a riot.
37:46It was one...
37:47We knew that Muslims both died.
37:49It was a riot.
37:49What happened in 2002 in Gujarat was state-sponsored.
37:53And how many people in 84, barring Mr. Chandrasekhar, had the courage of conviction to try and personally
38:00intervene and protect the Sikhs?
38:02Why single out Sonia Gandhi who was in mourning?
38:05Why not speak of all the others?
38:08What about the...
38:08What about the Akalis?
38:10What about leaders from...
38:11Okay, Javed, I've heard you.
38:13I'll give Tavlin a quick response and then move on.
38:17I've heard you, Javed.
38:18I've heard you.
38:19I've heard you.
38:20You know, Tavlin, a quick response.
38:23I mean, is a leader in a memoir...
38:25We come back to a book.
38:26In a memoir, is she supposed to be writing in great detail on every issue, even if she
38:33directly was not involved?
38:34Had she been leader of the Congress or prime minister at the time, maybe you could make
38:39a stronger case that she should have spoken about and taken accountability.
38:42I'm not saying she should have spoken then.
38:45The book has been written now.
38:46Yeah, today.
38:47So is she to be held accountable for what happened then?
38:50I'm not holding her accountable.
38:52I'm holding her accountable for not recognizing the enormity of what happened.
38:56After that, the Congress lost its badge of secularism.
39:00That gave rise to the BJP.
39:03Until then, there was...
39:05The Congress was on the moral high ground.
39:08It lost it.
39:09Okay, I take your point.
39:11Let me turn to the other contentious issue because that's a running theme through the book
39:15is family for Sonia Gandhi.
39:17That comes through.
39:19Does the dynasty tag still haunt the Gandhis?
39:22That's a question that has often been asked.
39:24Prabhu Chala, you want to dive in on that?
39:26Do you believe that in this book, the way she structures it, talking about the enormous
39:32devotion she has to the family, to the Gandhi Nehru's, that she even joins politics in a way
39:38out of a sense of duty, do you believe, critics will say, duty, yes, but it's also family.
39:49It is obvious, as you can see, now there are three Gandhis in politics right away.
39:53One is the chairperson of the parliamentary party, two others are in the looks of her.
39:56Have you seen any other family in the history of politics of India, where three families
40:01from one family, three members are in the legislature?
40:05That is obviously that they protect the Gandhis itself.
40:08If you go back to Menaka Gandhi again, look at the chronology of events.
40:13It is like a gargar ki kahani, midrula family where they're talking about one bow doesn't
40:18like another, and Indira Gandhi being elitist in that family, it was happening like that.
40:22One bow was, Baurani was fighting the other Baurani.
40:25She was promoting basically after the unfortunate death of Sanjay Gandhi, who would take over.
40:31He was a pilot, enjoying his life, social life, he was an elitist company, and he was suddenly
40:37the bipole for a parliamentary election, had never been held in such a short time, it was
40:42held there.
40:43One interpretation could be Menaka could have become eligible by that time.
40:47So to prevent Menaka, because she was a natural inheritance as a widow to get the ticket,
40:52which happened in India.
40:53Every widow gets a ticket, and you have seen it, which ever happened because of sympathy
40:57in politics happened.
40:58Why election-wide advance?
41:00Why suddenly Rajiv Gandhi was asked to resign and join politics?
41:04Earlier there had been two Gandhi's own Nauru.
41:05But that was Indira Gandhi's choice, Prabhu Chawla.
41:07This is Gandhi's own.
41:08No, no, that was Indira Gandhi's choice.
41:09How is...
41:10Indira, I'm coming back to that.
41:12Let me complete it.
41:13Yes.
41:13That's why Indira Gandhi's choice has to be on the family.
41:17Why?
41:18You are talking about the family, na?
41:19Yes.
41:19The book is about the family.
41:20Yes.
41:20It was...
41:21The book has written to perpetuate the Gandhi name once all over again.
41:24You have got...
41:25Now the Gandhi...
41:26One Gandhi has three family members in one party.
41:29Have you seen it?
41:30What is the justification of three of them in the parliament?
41:33Okay.
41:33Do you have any justification?
41:35You are making an important point that the book...
41:37You are making an important point that the book is here to perpetuate...
41:40You know, you've made a point that the book is in some ways perpetuates the family name,
41:46the romance around the Gandhis.
41:47Rajiv, let me make a point.
41:48Yes.
41:49No, make a...
41:49No, no, no.
41:51I have not made a point.
41:52I am making a point the way Menka Gandhi was pushed out.
41:55It was meant to sustain a particular kind of Rajiv Gandhi to come back into politics.
42:00So Menka doesn't become eligible for that.
42:03That is the part of it.
42:04And the whole thing is that the famer that she was a bad woman and Sanjay was a bad person.
42:09Though you got the ticket, he lost, unfortunately, he was killed.
42:12If he was not killed, what would have been the history of Indian politics?
42:15I've taken your point that's one of the many what-ifs in politics.
42:18But let Ashutosh respond to that.
42:19Ashutosh, do you believe this book in some way is intended to, in a way,
42:24not just Sonia sort of asserting her sense of identity and belonging,
42:29but also to ensure that the Gandhi name, in a way, is perpetuated?
42:37In this book, I had seen Sonia Gandhi, a normal woman, who, when realizes, she asserted.
42:46See, she was very timid before her father.
42:50But when it comes to marrying Rajiv Gandhi, she goes and confronts his father, her father.
42:57Similarly, when Rahul Gandhi was born, and Indira Gandhi was preparing all kinds of things
43:06without taking her in confidence, she goes and confronts Indira Gandhi.
43:10So, her identity and her personality has been somebody, if you push to her beyond a ball,
43:18she will confront and she will assert.
43:20But this she did with his father, who was an extremely stubborn person,
43:24and this happened with the prime minister of the country at that point of time.
43:28She did not hesitate.
43:29So, I see Sonia Gandhi as a very strong person.
43:32Don't push her beyond a point.
43:35On the dynasty issue, Rajiv, I think dynasty is a dead issue for Indian mass.
43:40Every dynast has one election, whether or not multiple times.
43:44And in my opinion, it is a dynasty which has helped Indian democracies survive for so long.
43:50I know I am making a very provocative statement.
43:53That is what the reality is.
43:54If Nehru Gandhi has not, if Nehru Gandhi family has not been here,
43:58I could see Sonia, the Congress party is scattered and fragmented in how many ways?
44:03Narsimha Rao and Sita Ram Kesari, they were responsible for the fragmentation of the Congress party.
44:09Sonia tried to survive it, and she successfully did it.
44:12Okay. Controversial, what you've just said.
44:14But I want to end with giving all of you a minute each on my final question.
44:18How will history then judge Sonia Gandhi? Fairly or harshly?
44:23You start first, Tableen Singh.
44:25How will history judge Sonia Gandhi? Fairly or harshly?
44:28I don't know about that, but I'll tell you that the book is written
44:33in a way that it will help the Congress party and it will help the Gandhi dynasty.
44:38And I totally disagree with Ashutosh that the dynasty has helped democracy.
44:44It has weakened it. What we've got is electoral feudalism across the country.
44:49And it's weakened democracy beyond belief.
44:52How will it help the Congress party?
44:54How do you believe that this book will help the Congress party, Tableen Singh?
44:57She's come across as very charismatic and, you know, the bits about her love story and all that.
45:02People love that kind of thing. You know, I mean, she's humanized herself.
45:08So far, she's been a kind of idol on a, you know, a silent creature in the background.
45:15She's now humanized herself and that will help the Congress party.
45:18That's a very interesting thing that you've just said, that the book has humanized Sonia Gandhi.
45:22Javed Ansari, do you believe the book has allowed Sonia Gandhi to set the record straight from her point of
45:29view?
45:29You can agree with what she says, writes, says, you know, but it has humanized her.
45:34She doesn't interestingly also write about, you know, what went wrong between her and the Bachans.
45:39Maybe someone else will have to write a memoir that tells us that.
45:43But do you believe that she has been humanized, that she's finally had a chance to come out of the
45:49silence that has surrounded her?
45:52Well, for once, the public has now got a glimpse, a view of the real Sonia Gandhi.
46:00And I think history will remember her very kindly as a remarkable leader, a leader of immense consequence.
46:08And as somebody who, who at all times displayed a great deal of dignity and grace.
46:16You're saying that, what is it when you say remarkable political leader, why?
46:20There will be those who listening to you will say, look, the Congress party never got a full majority under
46:25her.
46:262014, last three elections won by Narendra Modi.
46:29Why do you call her then a remarkable political leader?
46:33Yeah, because she kept the party together for 10 years.
46:38She was largely instrumental in bringing the UPA together, informing the UPA, and then ensuring that they continued in power
46:47for 10 years.
46:48Okay.
46:49That's not a main achievement.
46:50After Rajiv Gandhi's death, she was in hibernation and then came out and the Congress was in tatters.
47:01Just go back to the time when people were leaving the Congress in droves.
47:05So she held the party together, kept it together, brought, and she was able to set aside the personal and
47:12the political to achieve the greater political aim of defeating the BJP.
47:16She tied up with even those who, who had earlier, who, she had a bitter falling out in the past.
47:23Okay.
47:24Prabhu Chawla, very quickly, how will history judge Sonia Gandhi?
47:27Those who read this book, will they romanticize Sonia Gandhi?
47:30Will they see her as someone who's been a sacrificial, someone who's sacrificed a lot for family?
47:37Or will they see her in a very different light?
47:43Yes, Sonia Gandhi, everybody knows.
47:44She has been written about, talked about, she has heard them.
47:47What I'm trying to say is this book is a, this is a masterpiece in political, ideological messaging.
47:52She has very well put there, her personal life and all, she has put there beautifully.
47:57So it is a political, ideological messaging through that book.
48:00And also justifying the ideology of the country is represented by Gandhis and Gandhis alone.
48:06Only Gandhis can keep the ideological, alternative to the country.
48:11It will be led by the Gandhis.
48:12They can only deliver.
48:14They're the people.
48:14They have to lead the country.
48:16So it's a messaging, it's very clear.
48:17Personal messaging that I have kept the party together, which is correct, she got the party 268.
48:23But this book is basically putting the political messaging and conceivable that the Congress will be very happy to hear
48:30that.
48:31Because she has put the agenda back into the system.
48:33Interesting the way you're putting it again.
48:35Now, final word to you, Ashutosh.
48:37Will history judge her fairly or harshly?
48:40See, Rajdeep, we are trying to judge Sonia Gandhi now when the word is extremely polarized.
48:45I think Sonia Gandhi will be rightly judged after 50 years from now on, when the tempers are much cooler.
48:51But in my opinion, Sonia Gandhi will be remembered as an extremely astute politician who foxed all the foxes of
48:59Indian politics,
49:00including Sharad Pawar, Arjun Singh, Haruki Sampson, V.P. Singh, Chandr Shekhar, Atal Biyarivadpay, Lalki Sadwani, and above all, the
49:08RSS.
49:09They could not stop her in 19, in 2004.
49:13If she wanted, she would have become the prime minister of the country not once but twice.
49:17I want to share, since you mentioned RSS, just interrupting you, I want to share something.
49:21I am told by a source that one of the reasons why the book was eventually not published by Penguin,
49:27Penguin has not come out with a statement why they didn't publish it,
49:30is that the word RSS was used by Sonia Gandhi repeatedly in the book.
49:35The publishers wanted RSS changed to right-wing.
49:39Sonia Gandhi refused, said, no, I will not remove the word RSS.
49:43Now, I don't know what that means, but that is the story.
49:47I want to tell you, I think we should tell viewers that that is what we have heard.
49:51That's the reason why Penguin, or maybe Penguin just didn't want to publish the book,
49:55thinking it would be too much of a political hot potato.
49:57See, Rajdeep, Sonia will, Sonia, see, we try to...
50:02Rajdeep, Rajdeep gossip should not be so-and-so, we do actually...
50:05Rajdeep, Prabhu, let me complete it.
50:07They are putting RSS there, I don't have to, see why, but don't...
50:11No, she's, they wanted the word RSS replaced by the word right-wing, but go ahead.
50:16Can I complete Rajdeep, can I complete Rajdeep?
50:18See, we made Sonia Gandhi enigmatic, the elites of the country and the RSS made Sonia Gandhi enigmatic.
50:24Sonia Gandhi did what a mother should do to protect his son.
50:28Sonia Gandhi did what a wife should do to protect his husband.
50:32Sonia Gandhi did what she's supposed to do as a bahurani of a family about Indira Gandhi.
50:38If we are trying to examine Sonia Gandhi...
50:41As a result, the family and the party became one.
50:43As a result, many will say the family and the party became more contemporary.
50:48Like, like, my mother will go out of his way to protect me.
50:51It's that simple.
50:51Why we fail to understand this?
50:54Okay.
50:55Yes, yes, Tableen Singh, you want to respond.
50:57Yeah, I just want to, I really...
50:59In doing this noble work, she turned the oldest political party into a private, limited company.
51:08Well done, Sonia Gandhi.
51:11Okay.
51:11Every mother will do the same thing, Tableen.
51:13Every wife will do the same thing.
51:15Every daughter-in-law will do the same thing.
51:18I will...
51:19I want to see how many Indian mothers, wife and daughter-in-law would have done differently.
51:25I would like to see that.
51:26She had done something remarkable, I think.
51:29She cannot turn a political party into a private heirloom.
51:33It's wrong.
51:35I think you have a right to hold your opinion.
51:38You have a right to hold your opinion and that is why Indian elites have failed to understand Indian society
51:43that for a woman married into the family, Sasural is his home, Micah always calls her Parayadhan.
51:50Okay.
51:51I've heard all sides to the story.
51:54As I said, it's fascinating in that sense that it's taken a book...
51:58One sentence, I have to say, yeah.
51:58Yes, okay, you're given one sentence, Prabhu.
52:01Out of sheer respect for your age, I will give you one sentence.
52:04Quickly, only one.
52:05Yeah, because I was trying to...
52:08This book is all about saying that Devakant Brava said, Indra is India.
52:12This book says Congress is Gandhi.
52:14Gandhi is Congress.
52:14That's all.
52:15Okay.
52:16I'm going to leave it there.
52:17As I said, it's taken a book like this to revive the discussion around Sonia Gandhi and the Congress party.
52:24I hope many more politicians write memoirs.
52:26They should write memoirs, put it from their perspective and tell the world where they stand on contentious issues.
52:34Good to have all of you on the show.
52:36That was the Editors' Roundtable this week.
52:39Thanks very much for watching.
52:41Stay well, stay safe.
52:43Jai Hind.
52:43Namaskar.
52:45Namaskar.
52:45Namaskar.
52:46Namaskar.
52:47Namaskar.