00:00Senator Murphy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good to see you, Mr. Secretary.
00:05I'm gonna ask you two questions, one on disinformation and one on China and the
00:09Middle East. So one of China's most effective national security tools is
00:13propaganda and misinformation. Their investment dwarfs the investment the
00:19United States makes. Estimates are China's spending somewhere in the
00:21neighborhood of seven billion dollars per year. The United States clearly does
00:27some of this work through the Department of Defense, but inside the
00:30Department of State exists the Global Engagement Center, which is funded at a
00:33relatively paltry 61 million dollars, but over the course of the last half decade
00:38has done some pretty extraordinary work to track Chinese misinformation and to
00:44help local actors be able to fight back. The Global Engagement Center is set to
00:49expire. The authorization for the center is set to expire at the end of this year.
00:53What would be the impact if we lost the capacity to help coordinate with allies,
00:58help to fund efforts in and around the Chinese theater to combat Chinese
01:04misinformation, if we lost the authorization for the Global Engagement
01:07Center? Senator, first of all, thank you for the question. Let me just say I think
01:11some of the work that the GEC has done in the last couple of years is deeply
01:16innovative and helpful to American purpose, and I commend the work under
01:23Jamie Rubin, the leader of the organization, and others who work underneath him. I will
01:28simply say this, what it has done that has been made a difference in a number
01:34of places is simply illuminating the strategies, the actors, and the strategy
01:41that both China and Russia have undertaken. And so, these
01:45countries' ability, China, Russia, to manipulate and maneuver is done
01:51largely out of public view. When you expose it, it actually can be quite
01:57purposeful and effective. I would simply say that you are absolutely right. It's a
02:03small amount of money. We have a little bit at DOD that we're working, but the
02:07challenge is enormous. I'll just give you one example, Senator. When I was
02:11asked to go to the Solomons to basically contest what the Chinese were doing
02:16there, I remember waking up in the morning, getting the local newspaper on
02:21the cover, this is right after the war had started in Ukraine, was a long story
02:26about the chemical and biological weapons facilities that the United
02:31States maintained in Ukraine, right? Clearly effective Russian and Chinese
02:36disinformation, and we just have to do a better job contesting this globally. A
02:41first step would just be the GEC reauthorized. It is, I think the GEC has
02:47done more on Russia than China, but I think it's stepping up its game
02:52substantially on China as well. Yeah, just in the last year and a half, 22
02:56different reports produced by the GEC specifically naming Chinese propaganda
03:01efforts, which is you state is sort of the first and sometimes most effective
03:05tool. Let me turn to the Gulf. Obviously we have had a number of conversations
03:13this committee about the administration's conversation around
03:16extending a security guarantee to Saudi Arabia that would, you know, impact our
03:20broader security applications in the region towards all of our Gulf allies. I
03:26want to ask you about the future of Gulf cooperation with China. I think the
03:32history suggests that the our Gulf allies are sort of seeking to have it
03:37both ways, right? We'll play the United States off against China fairly
03:40regularly, and there's very recent evidence of that. Saudi Arabia's massive
03:45investment in the leading Chinese AI company, certainly contrary to US
03:50national security interests, the ongoing maturation of UAE's defense relationship
03:57with China. I guess I have two sort of simple questions for you on this
04:02portfolio. One, do you agree that a security treaty with a country like
04:09Saudi Arabia only makes sense if our China policies are aligned? And two, is
04:16there any reason to be optimistic that the Gulf nations are going to do
04:21anything other than continue to play the United States and China off against each
04:25other to get the best deals that they can get on economic investment, security
04:31relationships, etc.? So it's an important question, and I do think when we're
04:36talking about some of these fundamental decisions on the part of the United
04:40States, security guarantees substantial investments in technology. You know, we
04:46often say, look, we don't ask countries to choose, but we want them to have choice
04:51in certain circumstances where we're putting our stuff on the line, whether
04:56technology or our commitment to support you, I'm afraid it is a
05:02binary choice. And I think we would have to insist on that as we go forward. I
05:07will say the Middle East is complicated. Senator, you talked about the whole
05:11region. There was a period not long ago where Israel also, very deep engagements
05:17with China and the United States, has chosen largely now to engage directly
05:22with the United States because they understand the nature of what they were
05:26doing had implications for their own security, given China's other actions. I
05:32wouldn't want to go through a taxonomy of each country in the Gulf, but my guess
05:38is that we'll have more luck with some than others, but ultimately the process
05:43of this all rests on other issues being resolved, and it is just enormously
05:49challenging. So I do think we are right to try to contest. It's an important
05:55region, but at the same time, we also have to be clear that we have some real
05:59advantages. Our technology, our security guarantee must not be given lightly, and
06:06we must demand many things in response. Senator Cain.
