00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:21Civilians in Gaza are dying of hunger and now from gunfire while queuing for food.
00:27Aid is being handled by a new Israeli and US-backed group. They've been rejected by the UN for lacking
00:34neutrality. Now as famine looms and humanitarian norms collapse, the world must decide how much
00:42worse must it get before red lines are enforced. Joining us now is Paul McFund, who's the Director
00:50of Southeast Asia and the Pacific at Doctors Without Borders, also known as MSF. Paul,
00:56thank you for joining us on the show today. Can you begin by maybe sharing a little bit about what
01:01the current situation, current humanitarian situation in Gaza is as MSF sees it on the ground?
01:08What are your teams witnessing day-to-day, particularly in terms of access to food and healthcare and safe
01:14shelter? Okay, sure. Yeah, it gets harder and harder to describe a situation that is fundamentally
01:21catastrophic. So the population have now been suffering more than 13 weeks of a complete
01:27siege. That means that they've not been able to have access to any humanitarian supplies, food,
01:34water, essential medicines, fuel, basic equipment for a very extended period of time. And that's had a huge
01:43impact on their health, clearly, and on their well-being. So Gaza is essentially under a deliberate
01:50and strategic siege by Israel to essentially prevent any support getting into Gaza. That's led to a massive
02:02problem of food insecurity. We now see food insecurity at crisis and catastrophic levels. And the UN are saying
02:11and predicting that 100% of Gaza is now currently at risk of famine. 100% of the population is at risk
02:19of famine. There's nowhere safe to go. The conflict continues to be waged openly across pretty much all
02:27of Gaza. So nowhere is safe at any given time. We now see that of 36 hospitals, only 22 are partially
02:35functioning. There is no hospital that has not been impacted, partially destroyed or made unable to
02:43actually fulfill its functions anymore. So 22 facilities now partially functioning. People are
02:51being forcibly displaced continually. So there are evacuation orders underway continually. People are being
02:58moved time and time again. And we continue to witness mass casualty events. So whether that's at these new aid
03:08distribution centers or simply the result of the conflict which is being waged indiscriminately across an
03:14urban area where civilians are simply bearing the brunt of that conflict. Supplies for us are incredibly
03:22limited now. So in the medical facilities where we're working, we're rational, we're rationing medication, we're
03:29rationing the use of supplies, we've reduced our services to basically the most essential life-saving surgical
03:35procedures, and simply because we don't have the means or capacity to do more. We're even reusing surgical
03:43supplies because we just have such limited options. And then at the level of the patients, we're seeing
03:52I think one of the most harrowing things that I've heard from our teams is just how difficult it is to
03:58treat people who've been suffering for so long. We have children suffering severe burns, bullet and
04:05shrapnel injuries, severe shrapnel injuries, loss of limbs, and they are not healing properly. They're not
04:11healing in the way we would normally expect because they are so malnourished. They lack protein, they lack
04:17essential micronutrients. So even injuries that we could treat are becoming life-threatening.
04:25And these are situations, these are problems that these children will now bear for
04:29the rest of their lives. So talking to our teams, it's a horror. It's an abject horror
04:37situation that is just completely untenable.
04:39Right. And it has been going on for 13 weeks, you say, the complete siege on Gaza. You mentioned new
04:49aid distribution centres earlier, Paul. What is MSF's view of the US and Israeli-backed Gaza
04:56humanitarian foundation that controls these aid distribution centres?
05:00Yeah, we are completely against this as a model of delivery of humanitarian aid. This is an attempt
05:09by Israel to essentially feign some kind of compliance with international humanitarian law.
05:16So to state it's doing something that is fundamentally not doing. And then using these aid distribution
05:23sites, this approach as a way to forcibly displace people in what appears to us very clearly to be
05:31systematic strategy of ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip. So these aid sites are coercive
05:38and militarised. Aid is conditional on your relocating to secure it in locations of the choice
05:47of the Israeli forces. Most importantly, this results in aid not being distributed and directed
05:54to where the needs are greatest. So the most fundamental humanitarian principle, impartiality,
06:01to get alongside people with the greatest need, irrespective of who they are, their identity,
06:05religion, background, and provide them with their essential life-saving needs where they need it
06:13most. So what this means is that if you're the most vulnerable, you're elderly, you're sick,
06:18you're a woman with young children, the chances that you're going to be able to relocate yourself to one of
06:24these locations in order to be able to receive aid under extremely dangerous conditions is, you know,
06:31it's a joke. It's simply not going to happen. So the most vulnerable are the ones that are going to
06:36suffer the most and have the least access to this model of aid. I would also make a second point,
06:46and that is that, you know, there's a strong claim at the moment that this model will prevent
06:54the diversion of aid. And there's a claim that, you know, allowing a free flow of aid into
06:59into Gaza allows that aid to be diverted and used by Hamas and maybe others. And I would like to say
07:08that, you know, this is a completely false claim. The issue here is not about the diversion of aid or
07:16the risk of diversion of aid. The issue here is 13 weeks of siege have starved a population. So,
07:26you know, the humanitarian collapse we see right now is the result of a siege. It's not the result
07:31of a risk of aid being diverted. So bringing in small inadequate amounts of food into a situation
07:39that is currently so catastrophic where population is so desperate
07:43is inevitably going to result in chaos. It's going to result in lootings. It's going to result in
07:50populations doing anything they can to get that aid. And this in and of itself has been used as an
07:55argument to say, this is why aid needs to be militarized because there's no other safe way to
08:00deliver it. All right. Paul, when you talk about, when you mentioned small amounts of aid, help me
08:06understand the GHS aid distribution centers. There are only a few of them and they are only providing
08:19small amounts of food, meaning that we have the most of the population of Gaza at the moment cannot
08:25receive this aid that's being distributed. So technically not a lot of aid. And what does it mean
08:31for aid distribution if the UN and other aid agencies who have refused to work with GHF,
08:40what does that mean in terms of practical terms for operations of other aid distributions in the
08:45Gaza Strip? Yeah, but this is where the situation is essentially so ludicrous. I mean,
08:50there is a system in place for the distribution of aid that can be done efficiently and effectively and has been
08:56the practice up until now. That has been suspended. It's basically been made untenable for anybody to
09:02operate in the way they would regularly operate. And instead, we have this system of privatized,
09:07militarized distribution centers. There are multiple distribution centers. Only one is actually functioning
09:13currently. They're in locations of the choosing of the IDF. That means they're in locations where they want
09:21to drive the population to congregate, to collect. They're not distributed where the needs are greatest
09:27or the population is of the most density. So it's forcing people, and there are mass evacuation orders,
09:34forcing people to then travel to these sites to secure aid along what are so-called safety corridors.
09:41And we know, and you've seen this rolling out in the media constantly, that there is no safe way to cross
09:48from one location to another in Gaza. And hundreds of people have been killed and injured simply trying
09:53to do that. So yeah, what we see, what our patients tell us is that they come under fire. They face huge
10:04insecurity. They feel that the act of going to try and secure or get aid for their family has become
10:12the danger in itself. So now there's a huge reluctance among the population to actually mobilize
10:18because they fear that in doing so, they'll be targeted on that journey.
10:24So this is a really, really pivotal point right now. And MSF is calling on Malaysia as ASEAN chair
10:31to do more, to push the block to do more. Can I ask you what exactly you're hoping Malaysia and ASEAN
10:40will say and do right now, as well as other countries around the world?
10:44Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the first thing I'd say is that MSF really commends Malaysia. It's been one
10:50of the countries that has really stood out, taking a strong leadership role, calling for a ceasefire,
10:55calling for unimpeded aid in Gaza. And this is highly commendable. What we want to say is that states,
11:04governments, countries like Malaysia, populations like Malaysia, they can go further. They have
11:11influence. They have a very strong platform. Malaysia currently with its role, its lead role in ASEAN
11:17can use its voice, can use its influence to try and increase pressure and influence others. So as a
11:23block, we can apply more pressure on Israel to concede to international demands. At the moment,
11:29Israel continues to act with complete impunity. There is no accountability for their actions.
11:38And we have to draw a line deeply in the sand and say that simply cannot continue. The issue here is,
11:44this is not just about the humanitarian crisis and what's unfolding. It's really becoming a test
11:51for the region and for global actors, to say, will they uphold the most basic principles of humanity
12:01and stand for those currently and put pressure on Israel so that it cannot continue to act with
12:09complete impunity. So what we would call for Malaysia to do is to use that influence, use that voice,
12:16and call for a lifting of the siege. That's the first thing. Demand a lasting ceasefire. Only if
12:23there's a ceasefire, some security and some stability can we, we hope to have, you know, any way to stop
12:32this mass loss of life and suffering. And then of course, to open borders, we need to open borders, we need
12:38to get humanitarian aid flowing. We need food, we need medicine, we need fuel, we need equipment. Gaza has
12:45become a mass grave for the Gaza, for the Palestinian population, but also for those trying to provide
12:52assistance. I mean, there have been 1,400 medical staff killed among those 11 of our own, of staff
13:00from our own organization. And so, yeah, this is, this is why we call on Malaysia, on ASEAN, on other
13:07states, to draw that line in the sand with us and say, yeah, enough is enough.
13:14All right. Paul, thank you so much for being on the show and highlighting this to us and sharing
13:20some of MSF's insights from the ground. Appreciate your time. Thank you. Paul McFunder, Director for
13:26Southeast Asia and the Pacific at Doctors Without Borders, also known as MSF. We're going to take a quick
13:32break here on Consider This. We'll be back with more. Stay tuned.
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