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Why did Dupree private the podcast uploads? Oh, well, I managed to archive this part of the Gail Kim episode.
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00:00Well, let's talk about your debut because, I mean, Jesus Christ, your first night in
00:03on Raw, you win the women's title.
00:05Yeah.
00:08So I think I've told this story before, but basically I remember going in.
00:12So green as day, you know, so green and they're walking on eggshells the whole time.
00:18And I remember they're like, OK, you're going to debut tonight.
00:21They told me at like two, three in the afternoon.
00:24And then they told me around a little bit later.
00:27Oh, and you're going over for the title.
00:29And I thought it was a joke.
00:30I thought it was a joke.
00:31And I was like, you know, whatever.
00:34They're like, no, serious.
00:35And I remember Dean telling me, Dean Malenko, I remember Fit telling me.
00:39And I was just like, oh, and I go, oh, crap, this is really happening.
00:43And so I was so green that I didn't even think about how the other girls were going to think
00:48or feel about it.
00:50So thank God I was that green because I think I would have been paranoid and feeling like,
00:55oh, my God, I'm walking in here and taking that.
00:57I was so green that I didn't even realize that, which was great.
01:00And I remember, too, since I debuted, I was always a heel on the independence.
01:07Always a heel.
01:08OK, I know a lot of people see me as a baby face, but I didn't know what I was
01:12doing.
01:12I really didn't know what I was doing.
01:15And all I remember is when I won the title is the referee keeps on telling me from Vince,
01:20obviously, act more excited, act more happy, act more.
01:24I was like, I didn't know what to do.
01:27Just start doing cartwheels.
01:29Oh, good Lord.
01:31I mean, so listen, I know that.
01:35But I'm very grateful now, in hindsight, that my career is over, that that happened because
01:41it was history.
01:42At the same time, if I could do it all over again, that was not the proper way.
01:49You know, I should have been built because if you start at the top, the only place you're
01:53going to go is down or coast.
01:55So, and being that green, of course, I was going to go downhill.
02:01And so, yeah, that was my whole experience.
02:06I'm grateful for it.
02:07I learned a lot, but perhaps not the best way to start.
02:12So, if you don't mind talking about it, you, I mean, I've been vocal by it too.
02:18Like, my time in WWF was, whatever, I mean, it had its highs, but it had its lows too.
02:25Like, you know, would you mind, what was your experience there?
02:29Because you had, you had two runs in the WWF.
02:31Yeah, I had two runs.
02:33The first time, I just chalk it up to being very green.
02:37And I'm, I was, I mean, obviously, when I got fired at the time, it was devastating.
02:44And it literally killed my passion.
02:47I had no passion left for the business.
02:49I mean, because most people who get released get tons of offers, especially back then.
02:54There wasn't as many talent getting hired as special to get hired.
02:58So, it was a big deal too, if you got fired, I guess.
03:02And I remember all these offers coming in on the indies right after I got released.
03:07And I didn't take one.
03:08I just had zero motivation.
03:13I didn't want to wrestle anymore.
03:15I literally thought I quit wrestling.
03:18And then I think I took maybe in that one year time, I accepted two bookings.
03:24And one was in Mexico for Ultimo Dragon, I believe.
03:28Dragon Mania?
03:30No, it was like, I don't know what it was.
03:34I wrestled, I don't know.
03:36I don't remember.
03:37I don't remember.
03:38I went to Mexico City with Nydia.
03:40And Ultimo Dragon took care of us.
03:43And was it Arena Mexico?
03:46Oh, I don't remember.
03:48I have, I have such bad memory, Renee.
03:50It's terrible.
03:51Too many concussions, Gail.
03:52Too many concussions.
03:53I'm sorry.
03:53Oh, gosh.
03:54I don't remember.
03:55He just took care of us and took us around everywhere.
03:57He's the best.
03:58He's the best.
04:00He is the best.
04:01Yeah.
04:02And one funny story.
04:04He was really taking care of us because he said it was a little dangerous at night.
04:08And so when we're like driving, he took us to a restaurant for dinner.
04:11And we're driving to the city.
04:13And I was like, you just went through a red light.
04:15And he goes, yeah, you can't stop.
04:16He goes, if you stop, you're going to get carjacked.
04:19I'm like, wait, what?
04:21Yeah.
04:23He was really good to us.
04:24And we had the match.
04:25It was great.
04:26And then I did another show in Korea because I'm Korean, obviously.
04:32And at that time, I was like, I'll do it for whatever price.
04:36And so I did that.
04:37And still, my passion really wasn't to the level I wanted it to be.
04:43Or I didn't think I was going to get back into it.
04:46And then one day, Scott Damore calls me.
04:48Oh, no, no.
04:48Sorry.
04:50I'm mixing updates.
04:51But I know that I took a booking with Nydia again in Australia.
04:56And on that tour, it was mostly TNA guys.
05:00And this was before they had their spike deal.
05:02And so we did a whole tour with them, three different cities.
05:05And I got to know Jeff and everyone else.
05:09And so Scott Damore, who I knew from the Indies, my whole career, he said, I know you
05:14quit wrestling, but Jeff really likes you.
05:18And we want to start a women's division eventually when we have more time on the show.
05:23We're about to start this new deal.
05:26And so would you be interested?
05:28And I said, well, I said, I'll come visit.
05:31How about that?
05:32You guys are in Orlando.
05:33I'll drive over.
05:36And as soon as I walked onto the property, saw everyone I worked the Indies with, Bobby
05:42Rude, Petey Williams, just everyone, Tracy, everyone I knew from the time that I was trying
05:50to achieve that goal, it's like my passion just came rushing back, like flooding back.
05:58And I was like, okay, if you're going to have a women's division, let's do it.
06:02And so I debuted on the Spike TV date.
06:04And, you know, I never stopped since.
06:07It was passionate again.
06:10Yeah.
06:11Sometimes it takes just a little thing like that, right?
06:16Your matches with Autumn Kong changed the face of women's wrestling, in my opinion.
06:20And for many people, that series was unbelievable.
06:24And your sister was involved in a couple of spots as well.
06:27Not only my sister.
06:30Did you say my sister?
06:32Was it your sister?
06:33Or was it an actress?
06:34So funny.
06:35Well, in storylines, it's my sister, yes.
06:38And everyone really believed.
06:40Kayfabe.
06:41Are we like Kayfabe right now?
06:44Giselle, don't forget, he's a fan.
06:46I'm a Mac.
06:47I'm a Mac.
06:48I'm a Mac, Giselle.
06:50I did just see her recently.
06:54But no, your matches with Autumn Kong, it was unreal.
06:57And the knockouts, I mean, the WWE spikes the label of Women's Revolution,
07:01but that happened years before with TNA and knockouts division.
07:05But your matches with Autumn Kong, how great was she to work with?
07:08And getting all this applause and this praise from your series of matches.
07:14Yeah, it was such a, you know, when we were begging for that division and fighting for
07:18it for so long.
07:20And I was like, I just want to wrestle, just want to wrestle.
07:23Like I'm done.
07:24You know, most people would be happy collecting a paycheck and managing.
07:27And I took it as they're doing what I love and I have to sit back here and watch you
07:32do it
07:33while I wait for my one spot.
07:35You know, I'm like, I can't do this.
07:37So I, this was probably after a good year and a half of being there, I'm like, I'm going
07:42to hand in my resignation because you guys did say we're going to start a women's division
07:46and I can't handle this anymore.
07:49It's very difficult for me.
07:51And so I know people are going to be like, ah, shoot, you know, quitting, whatever.
07:56But hey, it worked because Jeff turned around and he said to me, they refused my resignation.
08:02They said, you can't get out of your contract.
08:05And I was like, oh, and then they said, okay, well, can you work Jackie?
08:09Can you work Jackie more?
08:10I'm like, I can work anyone, bring in anybody and I will prove myself.
08:14And so we started with Jackie Moore, had an amazing feud with her.
08:18And then we gained their trust and they started bringing in, you know, they brought in another
08:23girl and then eventually they're like, okay, we're bringing in a title.
08:27We're going to bring in all these girls and we're going to have a gauntlet at Bound for
08:31Glory.
08:32And I just remember the day and I just screamed out loud.
08:35Because it's like this moment you're waiting for, for a year and a half for this to happen.
08:41And then it somehow just worked almost overnight.
08:46It really just all those girls, it just worked.
08:51I don't know what happened.
08:51We were just so lucky and everyone worked so hard and wanted it at the time that we had
08:57a little bit of flavor of everyone, you know, the beautiful people, Austin Kong, ODB.
09:02We had so many different types of people.
09:04And I think that fans had never seen that before.
09:07They were used to seeing the model like that WWE always presented out there.
09:14And then with Kong, Loki came up to me at one point when we're forming the division.
09:20He goes, you got to see this girl.
09:21Amazing Kong.
09:22Oh, she's so, and I never saw her work.
09:25Just heard the description from Loki.
09:28And I was like, Dutch, we got to bring her in.
09:31Come on, let's bring in this girl.
09:32She sounds amazing.
09:34No pun intended.
09:35And so they brought her in.
09:39And before the gauntlet happened at Bound for Glory, they decided to set up the Bound for Glory with me
09:45and Kong in a singles match on impact or TNA at the time.
09:49And I remember I'd never seen her in her gear.
09:53I'd never seen her work.
09:55And when she came up to her music, and I always tell this story because it's funny.
09:59You can see if you go back and watch that match.
10:01They flashed to me on the entrance and I said, oh, shit.
10:04And it was real because I was legitimately scared.
10:09Yeah.
10:10I was like, oh, I'm in for something.
10:16And the chemistry just was always there.
10:19I don't know why or how.
10:23And so she didn't mind that I brought it because I felt like I had to bring it with her.
10:29And after a while of working with her, a couple of years, she's like, you make me feel like I'm
10:33in Japan.
10:34You know, you're bringing it like the girls did in Japan.
10:37I'm like, I'll take that as a compliment.
10:39And, you know, we just had that special bond and chemistry and special also because it was such a David
10:49and Goliath story, perfect for wrestling, underdog, babyface and the monster heel.
10:55And we both did our part, I guess, and created magic.
11:00But I'm just so lucky that that office at the time, the Dutch, Jeff Jarrett, Scott D'Amour, all of
11:09them were on board to give us that opportunity.
11:14Right.
11:15Yeah, that's important.
11:17Because I always heard people, and I don't know if it's true, and I hope it's not, but Jeff, someone
11:24used to always tell me, Jeff hates women's wrestling.
11:26Jeff hates women's wrestling.
11:27I'm like, no.
11:28I'm like, I'm going to prove it.
11:30Right.
11:31And fans, they would say that, too.
11:34Yeah.
11:35To expand on that, Gail, a lot of people said the same thing about Vince Russo.
11:39But I know, even about the book at the time, what was your experiences with Vince Russo?
11:44Yeah.
11:44I had nothing but good experiences with him.
11:47You know, he never, he was very honest with me, which I appreciate.
11:51When I came back the second time, he said something like, you know, we know you're not a great promo
11:59person.
11:59You're not a great talker, but we're going to keep plugging away.
12:02I said, thank you, because I knew that was my weakness.
12:06And he was direct with me about it.
12:09And, you know, in WWE, if you screw up a promo, they don't give you many chances.
12:14They'll just be like, okay, then we're going to talk.
12:16Right.
12:17So they don't, with TNA, they just kept on, they knew I needed experience and practice to keep on doing
12:24it.
12:24It's repetition.
12:25And they just kept, kept it up with me.
12:27And I got better.
12:28I mean, okay, I'm not the greatest talker, but I still was passable.
12:31And I feel comfortable to this day to be able to talk on TV because of them.
12:38Well, okay.
12:38Let's talk about how your first TNA run ended and you went back to WWF, especially, especially.
12:48Since I had a crazy, they killed my wife.
12:51You're in a battle royal and you like said, fuck this.
12:54I'm going underneath the bottom rope and eliminating yourself.
12:57That's the end of it.
12:57That's when I left.
12:59That's when I left.
13:00Oh, that's when you left the first time?
13:01No, that's when I left the second.
13:03Okay.
13:04Okay.
13:04Well, let's go back to when you started the first time.
13:07Second run.
13:08Second run.
13:09So I wanted to stay with TNA.
13:12Unfortunately, at that time, I owed more money than they offered at that time.
13:18Right.
13:18So, you know, it was just a, I felt like I had proven myself at that point and we couldn't
13:27come to terms.
13:28Uh, so of course, Johnny called and offered me what I wanted.
13:33And so listen, at that point, I was like, I don't want to go there, but I'm a stronger person.
13:41I'm wiser, more experienced now.
13:43I've experienced it.
13:45I'm going to go in with a really positive outlook and hope that this time is different.
13:51Obviously it wasn't, um, but I went in with the right mentality and, um, so listen, they used me and
14:01I didn't really like, I wasn't a jobber as fans would say.
14:04I won some matches, I lost some matches.
14:07I, but I was put in a lot of things, like a lot of those, uh, gimmick matches, like, uh,
14:12ZZ top legs match, uh, swimsuit spectacular, you know?
14:17And on the other end of the spectrum in TNA, I'm doing ladder matches, steel cage matches, and, you know,
14:23it was so different, but I tried my best.
14:25I tried my best when I was put in these gimmick matches to make them more wrestling, what I prefer.
14:32Um, but I just, I don't know.
14:34I, I tried to ask so many times cause you know, uh, WWE doesn't like to give answers to you.
14:40Even if you ask if I'm, I don't know if they're different now, cause I haven't been there for a
14:44long time, but I know when I went to Johnny, when I went to writers, uh, the head writers, I'd
14:49be like, what do I need to do here?
14:51I just don't understand. You say pitch ideas, pitch ideas, but then, you know, um, other talent are pitching too
14:58many ideas.
14:59I'm like, you say it's too much pitches or not enough. I said, what is it? They're like, well, we'd
15:05say maybe every four to six weeks.
15:07And I'm like, I, I never had to pitch idea. I mean, I get, of course, that shows that you're
15:14excited and creative and all these things, but they have a creative team for that.
15:20Right. Like, I, I don't, I don't understand. Okay. So I get pitching it though. I, I understand that aspect,
15:28but it was like this timeline. And, um, and then I'd say, what am I doing wrong?
15:35Nothing, Gail, you're not doing anything wrong. Okay. So then why am I not being used? You know, it was
15:41just like running around in circles because they couldn't answer you. I don't know if that's like a direct instruction
15:48from the boss.
15:49A hundred percent. You know, it's a one man show.
15:55Okay. So, I mean, even if I, I didn't know what I was doing wrong, if I was doing anything
16:02wrong, um, I didn't know what direction to take at that point. So, you know, that can, some people last
16:10in that company for years. And I don't know how, uh,
16:13cause it's, I always tell people it's more of a mental game there than a physical game. It's you better
16:21be prepared mentally, emotionally before you walk into that company in wrestling in general too. Um, but that's not the
16:29hard part.
16:29The physical part is the mental part. And so listen, I'm not a politicker. I'm not one to go kiss
16:37some hiney and I just want to be me. I just want to be able to do what I love.
16:43Uh, give me the opportunity. Um,
16:46Um, but it just, I didn't fit my personality didn't fit there, you know? So, and it's obvious because whenever
16:54the end of the contract would come, which is only a three-year contract, I'm like, I can't stay here
17:00anymore.
17:00I'm going to go insane. I am wasting my time and people wait for years, six to eight years. I
17:08don't know, longer. And I, I will not put myself through that mentally and emotionally. Um, when I knew I
17:16had more to give, you know, I really knew, I really believed in myself.
17:21So, you know, that's part of it too. Uh, some people don't have that personality. I have a very feisty,
17:27fighter-y, fighter-y, uh, type of person.
17:32Honestly, because I, once I left WWF in 2000, I left the United States completely, right?
17:37Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
17:39I was in Japan the whole time. I'm still in Japan actually. I'm going back in April.
17:44Oh, you are?
17:45Yeah. So, uh, you were the only person that actually, that I could hear of about when I was overseas.
17:53Like you hear, like I heard Hogan coming in and all this shit, but the only one that I, that
17:58had buzz that I would hear about was you.
18:00Oh, interesting.
18:01So really, in my opinion, uh, that, cause there's a lot of people that jump, right?
18:06Yeah.
18:07Right. But you were the only one that really.
18:10Did something.
18:12Did something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:13Yeah. And you, like, like, um, James says, like you took women's wrestling to another level.
18:20It was about opportunity though. You know, it really, and it was about the fight. Listen, it was about the
18:26fight because when I walked into TNA, it wasn't, um, it was taking a long time.
18:31It was like a year and a half of managing. Um, so when is this girls thing going to happen?
18:36Um, listen, cause I started wrestling late.
18:39I started, my first bump came at 23 years old. Okay. Um, so everyone's kind of starts in their teenage
18:46years, at least in today's, um, landscape, I find.
18:50And so by the time I came out of WWE, especially that second time, I'm like, I'm in my thirties.
18:58My clock is ticking in this wrestling business. I have stuff to accomplish. I need to get the hell out
19:03of here.
19:03I don't care. And so I set up, um, the contract with impact. So the night that I rolled out
19:12of the battle broil, um, I knew my back pocket, I had impact in my back pocket. Right. So it
19:19was, um, a safety net in a sense, cause you can't just, it's hard to just walk away from.
19:25Um, that's what I did. I didn't have anything.
19:29Well, there you go. Well, you have both.
19:31Yeah, I know.
19:32You really did.
19:33I'm so pumped.
19:36Good that you, you, you put yourself first.
19:40Yeah.
19:41And it's not like you didn't give it a chance, Rene. You really did.
19:45No, I was shit from 18 to 20, almost 24. So that's six years.
19:51But it was like, well, the Benoit shit happened, dude.
19:55Yeah, it was too much for me.
19:57Yeah.
19:58I mean, all those guys, especially all the Canadians that died, like.
20:02It was a rough time. And you, and I think, you know, sometimes, um, cause we're not a seasonal sport.
20:09We need time off. It's a lot.
20:11Yeah.
20:13Being on the road.
20:13There's also that, like, when they're not being used and then you're sitting at home and then you get that
20:18call, like a date where you're supposed to fly out and like, oh, well, you're not, you're not needed.
20:23And it makes you feel this fucking big.
20:25Yeah.
20:25And then you're so paranoid that they're going to fire you.
20:28Cause you know, they'll release people like eight, nine, 10 at a time. Right?
20:32Yes. Yes.
20:33Right. And then you're, and you know, those contracts are bullshit.
20:36Yeah.
20:37Because you can sign a five year or three year deal, but they can release you anytime they want for
20:41any reason they want. Right. So one sided.
20:44It's a very fear based, um, environment, which, you know, some people respond to that. Not a lot. I would
20:52think I don't respond to that. I don't respond well in a fear based environment.
20:58So, um, like I said, everyone's a different human. Everyone's a different personality of how much they can take or
21:04how much they believe in themselves.
21:06And I just knew that I couldn't stay for another three years and break my, my being down. My, my
21:13confidence, my confidence was already going down and you don't realize, um, your value.
21:21You know, you've got to realize your value. And, um, I just believed in myself. Like I said, I took
21:29that chance.
21:30So I didn't know how TNA was going to treat me when I came back. I actually expected to be
21:35punished. I don't think alone. I've never said that out loud. Um, I thought when I resigned, even though they
21:41brought me back, I was like, Oh, I left them the first time. And I left on great terms. I
21:47really did.
21:48But I still felt like maybe they'll punish me for leaving them. And I, I mean, they really didn't, they
21:53really propped me up. So.
21:56Okay. But how many people popped the way you eliminate yourself in that battle? Cause I popped what I see.
22:03I think it's, um, a very memorable thing from what I gather from fans responses. I was just really fed
22:13up at that point, the way we were treated as women there.
22:16And I don't know if you experienced those days of when the women were always the first one cut raw
22:22always. And we already didn't have, we're already treated a certain way and how we were viewed. So for me,
22:31um, already being treated a certain way as not a wrestler.
22:36Um, and then to have us cut continuously, continuously. So we'd go all up, we would go out there and
22:43the fans, sometimes they can't absorb what's happening in two minutes. And we can't tell a story in two minutes
22:50or three minutes. So we're, it was just,
22:53it was, it was at the point where the girls were like, just cut us, just cut us. We'd rather
22:56just get cut and go out there for two minutes and make fools out of ourselves, you know? And so,
23:02um,
23:03um, so again, that night, the battle royal happened and we had an order of what we were supposed to
23:09be get eliminated. Um, and I had thought about it and Maurice was actually supposed to eliminate me,
23:18but she got injured halfway through, or she had an injury in which they just pulled her from the match.
23:23And so they trusted, uh, you know, me, Natty, Beth, the more experienced girls to kind of, he didn't have
23:29to, you know, be so hands-on. It was, I think Goldust was our agent. And so he's like, Hey,
23:35you got your elimination covered. I'm like, yeah, I got it covered. And he's like, how are you going to
23:40eliminate yourself? And I'm like, oh, I'm just going to eliminate myself. Like what I said, but he didn't think
23:46it was anything suspicious.
23:47Like that. And I think he thought more like, okay, Fox would be in front of the rope. And then
23:52I come running for a dropkick through the rope and she moves and I get eliminated. But instead I just
23:58hit Fox and I said, sell. And then I rolled out of the ring because they cut our time once
24:04again. And they're like, okay, first four or five people need to get eliminated in the first two minutes. I'm
24:10like, I'm done with this. I'm so done with this. Um, and that's just more of my, I guess, rebellious
24:16side.
24:18You would say Stephanie McMahon would be a big advocate for women's wrestling, but it doesn't appear to be that
24:25way.
24:26Stephanie.
24:27Oh, Stephanie. Oh, um, I've never seen any indication of her at that time. Listen, Stephanie was nice. Stephanie was
24:38professional with us backstage, but in no way did I ever feel like she was fighting for us.
24:44I don't, I didn't feel like anybody was fighting for us to be on. I'm not just going to put
24:48it on Stephanie. Although, you know, if she, she right now, she's always been woman empowerment and since the women's
24:55revolution. So I wish she would have been more like that before. I'm not going to lie. I did wish
25:00that.
25:00Um, if anything, we had fit in our corner and being our agent most of the time, but I think
25:07fit was also like one of us in the sense of fear-based positioning with all the producers. They're all
25:14scared for their jobs and losing. So they're, they're more like robots in the sense of.
25:20Of taking the business from their meeting and what Vince wants to us. So it's, they can't necessarily fight for
25:27us because they're worried about their own position. Right. Yeah. So fit could only fight. Oh, so much for us,
25:34which we understood.
25:37Um, I just thought it was, uh, losing battle because Vince just never liked women's wrestling. You know, that's what
25:44you chalk it up to, you know, making assumptions when you don't have answers.
25:48That's what we wanted to do.