00:00It's always felt like a whole game in of itself.
00:03I was so excited when the little moles got to work.
00:07In all honesty, right now we're just kind of playing around and seeing what's fun
00:10and as a studio we always like to follow the fun.
00:19Hiya, I'm Millie Gould. I'm a writer at PC Gamer and recently I had the absolute pleasure of
00:24playing through Cult of the Lambs' latest DLC, Wilhaven.
00:27Needless to say, I absolutely loved the experience
00:30and now I'm here with James Pearman, Art Director at Massive Monster,
00:35to talk more about this chilly new DLC and what may be next for Cult of the Lambs.
00:40My name is James, I'm the Art Director at Massive Monster for Cult of the Lambs
00:44and I'm very excited to be here.
00:45So starting at, not the very beginning because that would take us a while,
00:49but the beginning of Wilhaven, what was it like on the lead up to that announcement?
00:54We've been working on it for a long time.
00:56We've probably, from the beginning it was probably about two years of work,
01:00so I think when we had announced that we've probably been working like a year and a half.
01:04So we definitely kind of expected the community to be excited.
01:08You know, since launch we've done a number of sort of free updates,
01:11which have all, you know, been packed full of stuff,
01:13but this is definitely the biggest thing we've done since launch.
01:16So it kind of feels like the first game we've released since Cult of the Lambs.
01:19Yeah, we were very excited and just interested to see how the community was going to react.
01:25And that was really positive.
01:26So it was a relief, let's say.
01:30What I suppose kind of went into the decision making of wanting to shift from slightly smaller
01:36updates and smaller DLCs to actually something like really quite big?
01:39When the game came out originally, there was a load of things we wanted to do.
01:44And we kind of, you know, you're always constrained by budget and timelines and stuff.
01:49And it wasn't until quite close to launch that the game actually sort of worked and all the systems
01:54clicked together. So we're sort of scrambling to sort of get that done.
01:58And then we had a successful launch and that allowed us to add a bunch of stuff that we wanted
02:02to add.
02:03So, you know, we spent the last two years after launch just sort of adding more depth
02:08to the dungeon side in Relics of the Old Faith.
02:11And then in Sins of the Flesh, we added a bunch of depth to the cult.
02:14And then with Unholy Alliance, we kind of added the local co-op and stuff to go alongside that.
02:20So after we did that, it sort of felt like, OK, this sort of the base game now,
02:25we're really happy with how it is.
02:26We've packed it full of secrets and content as loads of stuff to do.
02:30But we did feel like there was more that we could offer.
02:34And we kind of the community was still screaming out for more, more, more.
02:37And they wanted more dungeons, more biomes to fight for and stuff.
02:41But I think what we didn't want to do was just like, OK, here's one new biome and a few
02:46new buildings and stuff.
02:47We wanted to kind of make it a real chunky experience.
02:50You know, the Witcher, Blood and Wine and the Cyberpunk Phantom Liberty, is it?
02:55And the Elden Ring, Shadow of the Earth tree, like those kind of things,
02:58which you can really sink your teeth into.
03:00And it feels like you're kind of, you're getting a whole new kind of game almost.
03:04We've learnt a lot of lessons and kind of levelled up a little bit since releasing Cut of the Lambs.
03:09So we kind of wanted to put all those lessons into practice kind of thing and just make something really
03:15chunky.
03:16Yeah, I think it was just fun, you know, to be able to kind of do a bit of a
03:20reset
03:21and rethink a few of things and give the community something they can really like, really get into.
03:27I'm not too proud to say I was so excited when the little moles got to work and actually expanded.
03:36Oh, yeah.
03:37I was like, there's kind of made peace with the whole fact of like,
03:40I'm going to have to really maximise the layout of my cult.
03:44Do you see that as something that you could do more of?
03:46Not to like be like, will we get even more space?
03:48Because I've already managed to fill up the extras.
03:51We've already filled that up as well.
03:55I'm not sure.
03:55I'm not sure we'll be adding even more because it's like, there are certain sort of technical
04:00limitations of it.
04:01And I think we're already kind of pushing it a little bit.
04:03But we did feel like a lot of people were in a similar position where you kind of played the
04:08game
04:08and we've done all these updates and added new buildings and stuff.
04:11And then this Warhaven had like a bunch of new buildings and then we had the ranching and stuff.
04:15So people definitely needed that because I think we just wouldn't have had room to fill the ranching
04:19and stuff in.
04:20So I'm glad to hear that you appreciated that.
04:23But there are definitely no plans currently too.
04:25But it's quite a big space.
04:27We've kind of doubled it.
04:28But you must have a lot going on, a pretty serious cult game on that.
04:32On that note, I think I couldn't talk about Warhaven without talking about the new ranching system.
04:36Again, is this something that you guys had this idea from the get go and you just had to take
04:41the time to
04:42do it properly or was just like a relatively new idea for the game?
04:46You know, people have been returning to the game, every update we've done.
04:50And I think the kind of cult side of it, I don't want to say it was getting stale,
04:55but we wanted to do something that would kind of mix it up.
04:58And then sort of introducing the winter mechanic.
05:00And that was a good opportunity to kind of get people to rethink,
05:04OK, how are you going to get food?
05:05And maybe the crops die and we can't farm the crops during winter.
05:10So then OK, well, what if we had ranching animals?
05:12So it kind of was something that came from that central idea of having the winter
05:16and just sort of wanting to sort of mix the gameplay up a little bit.
05:20One really cool aspect are the lambs, like the whole new bunch of them.
05:26What was it like, I suppose, kind of going into that,
05:29but also maybe trying to design them so they're distinct from the lamb, our lamb?
05:34With this, we really wanted to sort of push the story forward,
05:37but also look back, you know, and look back on because at the start of the game,
05:42you're executed and you're the very last lamb and your whole species has gone right.
05:46And so that's the defining thing about this character.
05:49And so we really wanted to make the story something meaningful.
05:52And so do it like, yeah, having you kind of rescue these lambs
05:57and bring them back to rebuild the home of the lambs,
06:01let the players learn a little bit about the history of the lambs and other lambs and stuff.
06:05So yeah, it was a lot of fun designing them.
06:07We wanted them to all feel different and have their different personalities
06:10and characters and relationships.
06:12And because they all have their different personalities and jobs and stuff,
06:15and then they have their own activities and things associated to them.
06:19And, you know, you've got the barrack, the rancher,
06:21and you've got all these different jobs and roles that they have.
06:24And that kind of was an opportunity for us to tie these lambs to different features
06:29and things in the game as well.
06:30And kind of, yeah, just learn about the lambs and, you know, it's Cut of the Lamb.
06:36We wanted to really focus around those.
06:39Looking back on your success with Cut of the Lamb and what it's been like,
06:43I'm just wondering if you kind of think that it's possible still for new indie games
06:50and new, like smaller developers to kind of get that success.
06:54Or if, you know, it's possibly a bit harder now.
07:00It's really hard to tell what's going to happen, I think.
07:04I don't know if it's necessarily harder.
07:06Like our friends, the aggro crab just sort of sold a ridiculous amount of copies with Pete.
07:14And, you know, they're not new studio, but, you know, I think that kind of took them massively by
07:19surprise.
07:20And I think, you know, there's I'm sure there will be games in the future that just absolutely explode.
07:26Cut of that almost out of nowhere, like schedule one this year sold a ridiculous amount of copies
07:30and they've just had a level of successful way beyond ours kind of thing.
07:34And that was just one guy, I believe, just made that from Sydney.
07:38So I'm sure there'll be plenty of other things in the future.
07:42Sometimes you just kind of you make something that really resonates with people,
07:45particularly in the indie space.
07:47You can just make an indie game one person.
07:50And that's what I think where really interesting stuff comes from.
07:53And I think players really respond to that.
07:56And so, you know, I don't think those days have gone at all.
08:00There will be plenty more indie smash hits and I can't wait to play them.
08:04And not to put you on the spot.
08:06But like what Cotterdam's like lifecycle kind of like looks like.
08:09Do you have any updates planned?
08:11Is it something that you guys are really happy to be able to keep working on?
08:15Or like would you want to maybe, I don't know, change pace in the future?
08:19Like we've been working on this for nearly eight years now, which is a ludicrous amount of time.
08:25And I think particularly with Wallhaven, we've kind of done a huge expansion now and we've
08:30extended the story and we do have like other stories that we want to tell.
08:34But I don't know if they necessarily or need to be part of this game.
08:37There will definitely be more Cult of the Lab, whether that is through an update or an expansion
08:41or a new game.
08:42We're not entirely sure right now, to be perfectly honest.
08:45We really want to make a multiplayer game and we've been playing around with that.
08:48I'm really excited by that.
08:49And since launching Wallhaven, we've been kind of, we've been doing an internal game jam and just
08:53playing with lots of different ideas.
08:54And that's been really, really fun just because, yeah, it's been so long since we've actually
08:59worked on anything new.
09:00In all honesty, right now, we're just kind of playing around and seeing what's fun.
09:03And as a studio, we always like to follow the fun.
09:06But there definitely will be more Cult of the Lab.
09:07We're definitely going to make more games.
09:09Yeah, we'll just wait and see it, I guess.
09:12For more on Cult of the Lab news, reviews and previews, follow PC Games.
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