- 23 minutes ago
On India First with Gaurav Sawant, panellists debate major political rows surrounding national identity, secularism, and constitutional principles. The discussion examines the controversy over singing the national song, Vande Mataram, and the Karnataka legal dispute regarding legislative competence over limiting the song to two stanzas, with BJP national spokesperson Tuhin Sinha and Congress national spokesperson Brijesh Kalappa trading historical and political arguments alongside political analysts Shehzad Poonawalla and Rashid Kidwai. The broadcast also addresses the political fallout over remarks by former Vice President Hamid Ansari and Congress leader Rahul Gandhi concerning nationalism, religiosity, and Sharia courts. Panellists further analyse the ideological distinctions between Hinduism and Hindutva, the presence of religious figures in electoral politics, and allegations of minority appeasement versus secular governance under the Indian Constitution.
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00:02from vande matram to alleged mockery of reference to ma to hamid ansari's comments the political
00:07battle lines are very clearly drawn joining me on india first is tuhin sina national spokesperson
00:13and author bharatia janta party british kalappa is national spokesperson of the congress party
00:18former legal advisor to the karnadaka government rashid kidwai is an author and political analyst
00:23covered the congress party for a very long time and of course the political landscape across the
00:28country and shazad punawala advocate was with the bharatia janta party and the congress earlier
00:34now joins us as a political analyst gentlemen welcome british kalappa wear your legal hat for
00:41a moment sir a pil has now been filed in the karnadaka high court challenging that the state
00:48lacks legislative competence over the subject of vande matram just the first two stanzas and not
00:54the rest since it's not covered under list two or list three of the seventh schedule bjp says the
01:00congress is doing this only as part of muslim appeasement politics sir see i think i must inform
01:07your viewers you are as to how the first two stanzas alone came to be uh sung in the in
01:151937
01:16there was a committee which was decided which decided that there will be only two stanzas which
01:21were sung mainly because many people don't know this that the remaining stanzas were unknown even
01:27at that point in time even today they are still unknown but even in 1937 it was decided that no
01:34they are largely unknown and these two are something which uh you know are well established therefore
01:40we should stick to this alone right and who decided this this was uh netaji subhasanrabos who decided
01:47this so who are the at the forefront of this decision and the main person who decided this was
01:55yes and of course mahatma gandhi and so on and so forth so as far as the indian national congress
02:00is
02:01concerned we are the successors of those eminent leaders and we have no doubt in our mind that only
02:07the first two stanzas will be sung so let the bjp tried it's try its luck in a court of
02:13law let them
02:14try in the supreme court let them try in the international court of justice they're most welcome
02:18to try uh you know to uh you know uh say that the entire all the stanzas should be sung
02:24but as far as
02:25we are we are very clear in our minds that only two stanzas will be sung and we'll stick fair
02:31enough
02:31fair enough to hinsina how is it muslim appeasement of the congress sites uh you know going with the
02:371937 decision of singing just the first two stanzas of one day matram how is this muslim
02:43appeasement in 2026
02:49well good evening gaurav good evening everybody the congress may cite instances of 1937 but are they not
02:54aware of the prevention of insult to national honor act 2026 they should sit with omar abdullah
03:02omar abdullah will tell them that a law passed by parliament has to be respected by all but this is
03:08the problem with the congress party see in 1905 one day matram had emerged as a clarion call against
03:16britishers when lord karson divided you know the undivided bengal today one day matram has emerged as a
03:23clarion call against radical groups and who are patronizing the radical groups rahul gandhi and
03:30hamid ansari so this is the crucial difference over here the congress party today has emerged as the
03:38modern day muslim league rather the mawadi muslim muslim league congress party and you know any any
03:44attempt to disrespect a law passed by parliament will not be taken well by the people of this country
03:51it's as simple as that you're saying it by the people of this country the government will it act
03:56on it or will the government just make political capital and i'll come to you with that question
04:00in just a moment but i want to bring in rashid kidwai give me a moment rashid kidwai in 2014
04:05when the congress party was reduced to just 44 seats ak anthony former defense minister veteran
04:12congress leader he had said words to the effect in a report that congress brand of secularism was being
04:19questioned as tilting towards minority uh or as muslim appeasement bjp accuses the congress of
04:27blatant not just muslim appeasement but being the new muslim league sir singing just the two stanzas
04:34does the congress risk being seen as a party that's doing this for muslim vote bank
04:41uh not really because if you look at you know the congress history and the entire legacy of it
04:47nobody can accuse congress of being uh you know so to say anti-hindoos let me remind you in 1999
04:54when sonia gandhi was congress president the congress committee passed a resolution
04:58and i remember one line it said that hinduism is a sole guarantor of secularism in india
05:04god of if i had not told you that this is a congress resolution many would have thought it's
05:08a bgp resolution of harti jansang or shiv sen or any other so to say the right-wing political party
05:13the congress i consider this point uh one of that congress on a emotive issues many time falls between
05:20two stools it is struggling since 2014 when this sort of majoritarianism came to the fore as a
05:27kind of you know political uh tool so congress is a bit struggling to find its feet sometimes they
05:32become a you know janir dhari hindu sometimes they try to uh you know uh question uh uh hindutwa and
05:38they bring you know saratan dharma all kind of definitions are there all political parties
05:42struggle the bgp has also struggled to information of 1980 and what we see them today so this is part
05:48and parcel of it you also were referring to a lot of things was about mr hamid ansari i just
05:54want to
05:54remind your viewers hamid ansari has not been member of congress party not even for a day
06:01oh absolutely i'll come to hamid ansari in just a moment because hamid ansari uh and some of his
06:06comments in the past and present require deeper uh you know perhaps conversation around it and and i
06:15shall come to that in just a moment but let me bring in ÅŸehzad poonawala into this conversation
06:20do remember he's been with the congress he's been with the bjp he's a lawyer he speaks very well argues
06:26his points very well so ÅŸehzad poonawala if the congress says that singing two stanzas is exactly
06:33what gurudev rabindranath tagore decided in 1937 it's not muslim appeasement in fact it's the bjp
06:41that is appeasing the hindus by singing the entire one day matram in 2026 how would you respond sir
06:49i would respond by saying that congress is clueless because in 1896 it was rahmatullah sayani who sung
06:55the full one day matram and it was sung obviously by rabindran tagore ji and if they want to agree
07:01with tagore's views then they should agree with tagore's views on everything not selectively cherry
07:05pick him because tagore was very clear about his stand on islam and christianity too maybe they want
07:10to start quoting him on that too they should look at that before they quote tagore liberally as they want
07:16to also why was one day matram even split into this uh two portion two verses not the six verses
07:23it was
07:23done because nehru genuflected before jinnah he basically went down on his knees and said jinnah
07:30you're right muslims get irritated by one day matram and therefore in 1937 you start by cutting one day
07:37matram into two parts and then you chop this country into two parts you make muslims feel like they are
07:42a separate nation and that was jinnah's first big political victory that was the sewing of the seeds
07:48of partition and let me tell you even now it's not a question first of all i am very confused
07:52sonia
07:53gandhi says stop stop stop and then jairam ramesh comes and says we sang all the six verses so who's
07:59lying is brajesh lying is jairam lying point one point two uh if they are saying that they are with
08:04two
08:04stanzas then arif masood sidra maya rahul gandhi and others don't even want to sing the two stanzas
08:09you can take up all their statements they have even problems with two stanzas for instance
08:13arif masood in madhya pradesh said now the first two stanzas which are basically definitions or they
08:21are just a description of mahabharati's prakruti even there they have a problem and i know the
08:26full one day matram the six stanzas the third stanza talks about uh you know the the will or the
08:31resolve
08:32of the people of india to come together to defend mahabharati the fourth stanza talks about how mahabharati
08:37you know she's uh you know she's vidya she's done done in the sense of duty the fifth stanza which
08:43they say is problematic das praharan dharini is not in the sense of durga das praharan dharini it is
08:49durga ma is unassailable you can't repeat her it is also talking about how she is a vidya ki dhaini
08:57so these things are all descriptions in a metaphorical sense for instance if i say
09:03uh are prabudev i am not literally calling you prabudev it is a respectful way of saying
09:08vandana matram vande does not mean bowing down vandana means praise in sanskrit the word for
09:14bowing down is namami it is not namami matram it is vande matram so vande means praise what
09:20difference does it make why are you making muslims a separate uh you know thinking process so you know
09:25when when yeah brijesh kalapa you know when muslims say that they are being othered and
09:31havid ansari is also used words to the effect in a separate context in a separate conversation and
09:37we'll come to him in just a moment now who's othering muslims if they are not joining everyone
09:43in moving forward are they being othered or are politically they are being treated as a separate
09:49vote bank sir and if i may since you're also a lawyer uh par excellence brijesh kalapa the september
09:558 order says only the first two stanzas to be sung at state government program but the karnataka
10:01government also says if a program is attended by the president the vice president the prime minister
10:06and governor all stanzas to be sung so mha order says all occasions national song is to be sung
10:12official version is the only one to be sung who is making this distinction congress party why sir
10:20as far as these two you know points of view are concerned that will ultimately have to be
10:25resolved by a court of law i don't think we need to step ahead of a court of law and
10:29say that this
10:29is the right version but that is the right version now i heard my dear friend shahzad and i heard
10:35the
10:35bjp spokesperson speak with great passion about the one day matram song so i'm just asking thinking to
10:41myself that if they are so if they love the song so much why doesn't the rss sing it as
10:46their national as
10:47their anthem because they had they don't have the same anthem they have sadavatsale matrabhu me why
10:53don't they adopt this let them adopt the one day matram because one day matram did not begin today
10:59the congress party has been singing one day matram since historical times right and even today even
11:07yesterday forever we've been singing one day matram of course we stick with the two stanzas but the rss
11:13has never sung this why doesn't the rss today decide because there are two very important
11:19spokespersons both who have completely uh you know uh bought down to the rss so let them say that
11:26the rss today says that today we disassociate ourselves from sadavatsale matrabhu me and we go
11:33with one day matram let them okay shahzad punawala wants to respond on the legal point also
11:38and on the sang not singing one day matram as you claim but shahzad and then i'll bring in to
11:45him
11:45go on sir first of all there is there can't be a bigger lie that the sang does not sing
11:53one day
11:53matram in fact the one day matram is given so much respect by sang in fact one of the statements
11:59of
12:00bhaiya ji joshi which had become a little controversial was that one day matram should be the real national
12:05anthem this is the statement one day matram should become real national anthem so they have been
12:09singing one day matram and by the way namaste sadavatsale matrabhu me and one day matram
12:13essentially the meanings are essentially the same and therefore we stand the assembly
12:17mr shiv kumar singing it very proudly namaste sadavatsale matrabhu me so i think that mr bajesh
12:25kalappa is throwing a trap for mr dk shiv kumar okay okay okay to instance now you want to comment
12:31on the fact that now this matter will have to go to courts of law there already is a petition
12:37in the
12:38karnadaka high court of pil
12:43well i don't i you know i really don't understand what the congress party is you know proving by by
12:50you know showing that they have respect only for two stanzas because you know obviously before 1937
12:55for four decades it was the same congress party which sunk it you know everywhere so just before
13:02you know just because you have bowed down to jinnah and now you have a modern jinnah in rahul gandhi
13:07who is hell-bent on not respecting the law which has been passed recently rahul gandhi must spend some
13:12time with umar abdullah and you know no no sir why are you calling rahul gandhi isn't that unfair
13:18i mean omar abdullah is showing greater isn't that unfair you're calling leader of opposition
13:23modern day jinnah i am sure brujesh kalappa just does not agree with you and would want to respond
13:28to that but be there as it may why are you calling him jinnah why are you calling rahul gandhi
13:32jinnah
13:33multiple i will give you i will i will give you multiple instances when india were ravished by a
13:39series of bomb blasts between 2004 and 2009 what was rahul gandhi doing apparently he was sitting in
13:45u.s embassy and saying that the biggest threat to india is from hindu nationalism would anybody apart
13:50from somebody having a pronounced jinnah mentality say that so why should we not call it out this is
13:57the mentality khalid mashal an ex hamas activist was holding a conference in in uh kunur in kerala
14:03barely three weeks after the attack on israel did rahul gandhi condemn it he was a member of parliament
14:08from israel from uh kerala at that point of time so if rahul gandhi needs to be seen you know
14:14as a
14:15positive nationalist paget hindu nationalist he hates the word hindu nationalist he should call out the
14:20radical designs of radical groups which he has been not not been able to do that okay vijesh kalappa
14:26wants to respond to you especially especially on yes go on sir so it was actually um mr lalkrishna
14:34advani the senior most leader of the bjp who went to the mazar of jinnah it was not rahul gandhi
14:39i i don't know you know i think the bjp spokesperson ought to read a little more than just whatsapp
14:45university and enroll himself for something to get a newspaper read some you know good channels and
14:51watch some good material i think before making such comments because otherwise there is a prime
14:59minister of india who's known as the butcher of gujarat right so this is not something again
15:05distasteful again distasteful and completely uncalled for uh you know if you're going to say something
15:11about rahul gandhi i did i said that's distasteful that's why i got you to respond to it that that's
15:17that's the reason i'm saying that if you want to you know drag the debate down a certain path i'm
15:23willing to very well going to join you so that's all i'd like to say to in sinai you want
15:29to say
15:29something to to what uh vijish kalappa said before i bring in rashid kudvay because on this channel
15:35we are very clear we want a civil debate based on facts and not you know that that happens in
15:42other
15:42channels no no you know so the same rahul gandhi who has not found time to go to ram temple
15:51in yodhya
15:51had rushed to barber storm after becoming member of parliament in 2004 and today you know the congress
15:57spokesperson has the gall to say that advanici went to jinna's uh you know what did advanici do over
16:04there he reminded pakistan that at the time of pakistan's formation jinna wanted it to be
16:11accommodated which pakistan is not so why did the rsss come down on him if he was doing the right
16:17thing
16:17this congress party this congress party this congress party you can use no no we are we are we are
16:25well
16:26past that but for your understanding you should listen to that statement once again you know that
16:31would help you understand and clear many of your conceptions which your whatsapp universities which
16:36your whatsapp universities have been floating for your understanding i'm saying see on the one hand
16:42on the one hand you keep criticizing the rss and now you want to you know you want to blindly
16:47go by
16:47what rss said you why don't give me a moment give me a moment i want to bring rashid kidwai
16:51i want to
16:52bring rashid kidwai for a moment because now i want to move from vande matram to former vice president
16:58hamid ansari's comments and he's now in the line of yogi adityanath's fire has the bjp rashid kidwai
17:04actually got a big stick to show from nehru finding the real danger to india was not communism but
17:09hindu right-wing communalism as he put it to rahul gandhi being quoted in the wiki leaks saying that the
17:16bigger threat may be the growth of radicalized hindu groups which create religious tensions and
17:22political confrontations or words to that effect you know quoted by ambassador timothy romer then in
17:28u.s ambassador to india as per wiki leaks has the bjp now got another stick on this sir so
17:35gaurav there
17:36are two aspects of it one relates to hamid ansari and about other was about rahul gandhi see the bjp
17:42because the elections are there and they have a political right to do so they want to politicize
17:47each and everything here i find it very bizarre that god of you or me if we read a text
17:52and if we
17:52quote somebody see the criticism if at all it's warrants then it should be how is that and there
17:58was a context mr hamid ansari was talking about uh you know a writer or author who had written a
18:06book
18:06about rss and in that context he quoted it was not his his formulation now you can no but i'll
18:13come
18:13down to his formulation also sir i'll come down to his formulation also in just a moment and and that
18:18is also something that needs closer scrutiny because ÅŸehzad poonawala as rashid kidwai very rightly
18:24says india is a democracy people may have different points of view so why target hamid ansari for just
18:29quoting nehru ansari was only quoting nehru as saying that the real danger to india is not communism
18:35but hindu right-wing communalism why train your guns at hamid ansari no no i have no problems with
18:43hamid ansari selectively activating all his angst against what india stands for only after he
18:50demoted his office you'd remember that for so many years he was vice president for two tenures
18:54and at the fag end of his tenure he remembered how minorities are insecure and he forgot to remember
19:00that at the time of bhagalpura hashimpur mirat maliana delhi nirli and all of these times when
19:07minorities including sikhs and muslims were chopped at that time he never felt insecure he felt insecure
19:12after modi came to power so he can feel insecure no problem secondly i want to ask mr habir adisari
19:18that this entire ecosystem why don't they come out and they say clearly that they have a problem with
19:23hindus i mean rather than keep saying i have a problem with hindutu but not with hindus to try
19:28and draw this a funny distinction between the two as if ma and matutu are different or vekti or vektitua
19:33is different hindu and hindutu is not different and hindu and hindutu has been defined by the supreme
19:37court as a way of life i want to ask mr hamid ansari did he feel insecure in iran because
19:42in iran
19:43there is no rss trying to go going around killing muslims but wherever you find that's a very big
19:49question you're asking you're saying people like hamid ansari have a have an issue with hindus
19:54british kalappa i i want you to respond sir i want you to respond one to this two to another
20:00statement
20:01of hamid ansari and your views on it the covid 19 and this is when he was speaking in 2020
20:06covid 19 as a pandemic is bad enough but before it our society became a victim of two other pandemics
20:15religiosity and strident nationalism hamid ansari the same hamid ansari actually backed the opening
20:22of sharia courts in india and said each community has a right to practice its own personal law so
20:28nationalism is a problem it's a pandemic religiosity is a pandemic but sharia courts that's kosher
20:35i have no views on this in fact if you ask me uh i think the very fact that mr
20:45hamid ansari is
20:46made a certain statement and uh a monk who is supposed to have given up uh you know uh social
20:55life and who
20:57is supposed to have been outside the in the fringes of society is somebody who's occupying center stage as
21:04the chief minister so to some extent i find what mr hamid ansari is saying is true but as far
21:10as a
21:10congress spokesperson is concerned i have actually nothing to do with this because mr hamid ansari is
21:15concerned to his views if the bjp or diamond has certain views regarding that then they're you know they can
21:22ask him what is just just just just just see the point is that a monk is supposed to have
21:32given up you know his uh so why should monks be on the fringes of society if you go by
21:38the sanatan culture sir if you go by india's civilization if you go by sanatan culture monks have actually
21:44ruled ruled the state and got emperors yes sir they have they have there are multiple instances and they have
21:54been advisors to governor to kings sir which is very you know which is why i'm asking you
21:59you are you know are we so detached from the sanatan way of life that monks are only meant to
22:06be out and never in
22:07this system but be that as it may that may be your view but uh shahzad poonawala wanted to come
22:12in
22:13look this is exactly what i'm saying hamid ansari espouses and echoes the language and the lingo of the congress
22:20the congress person has just said monks should be out of society but maulana azad could have become the
22:25i agree with that one second sir one second sir kishan ganj mp from the congress for a very long
22:31period of time
22:32was a maulana now if i ask mr brajesh kalappa to advocate that maulana should be out of politics
22:38you know sonia gandhi will take him out of politics and this is the problem you start targeting nationalism
22:45and then that nationalism one day matram goes to targeting hindus and then you say hindu terror
22:50then you say mandir jane wale ladki chherte hain you say mathadish mafia hota hain and it's not that you're
22:56saying it against every religion as an equal offender you are saying it only to target the
23:01hindus to make them feel that as if they have the onus of carrying the cover of secularism and
23:06democracy in this country while the rest of the communities they have a free run so this pampering
23:12and abusing pampering of the muslims and abusing of the hindus is the real problem from nehru
23:17to mr hannah can i make a point okay tuhin yeah you wanted to come in on this point
23:21not because there is something he has said let me just answer that okay okay okay i just wanted to
23:28no no i just want to address i i i just give me 30 seconds let let uh british kalappa
23:34quickly respond
23:35go on sir first thing is i don't know i think shahzad is a muslim i don't know why he
23:40has so much of
23:40hatred against the muslims but the important part is this that as far as islam is concerned right
23:46to the best of my understandings they they do not step out of society if it's a malvi or if
23:53it's not
23:53that's the nature of the religion but in hinduism when you say that you have become a sanyasi right
23:59you have stepped out of society right so there is a different distinct difference between what
24:06hinduism is and what islam is so you nearly because uh my friend shahzad is a muslim doesn't mean
24:12he can insert islam into the hindu religion okay uh tuhin sinai you wanted to come in uh you know
24:19though what shahzad's religion has to do with this debate and bulletin i failed to understand but
24:24respond tuhin sinai no why target hamid ansari uh i i i just wanted to i just yeah yeah i'm
24:31just
24:32answering that since both my you know friends from the other side are so innocent they are asking us
24:37why should congress party be blamed for for what hamid ansari is has said let me address that you
24:43know hamid ansari is a proven hindu phobe like you have yourself mentioned multiple instances even as
24:49vice president he was he's known to have attended a pfi affiliated event rooted for sharia only the
24:57present day congress party which is an equal hindu phobe could have considered a person like him
25:04fit to be fit to occupy the position of vice president for two consecutive terms and like
25:11rahul gandhi no for a repeat offender but like i mentioned like no no what else what else is he
25:19you have a problem with hindu nationalism you are quoting from a book of 2019 during covid after covid
25:26in fact you have said that india has already seen a wave of your hindu you know uh whatever hindu
25:31pan nationalism pandemic or whatever he has never let go of an opportunity to deride hindu
25:38sentiments just like rahul gandhi like rahul gandhi uses chattro ki gonj to to you know spread venom
25:45against manuspriti he may have problems with manuspriti like many people today you know uh point out
25:51specific things which are not valid which are not uh relevant today he could have done that but he does
25:55it
25:55in an event standing next to a hijab wearing woman as if the hijab wearing woman is impacted by
26:02panuspriti this is the hindu phobia of not just rahul gandhi but also you know let me get rashid let
26:08me
26:08get rashid kivvay into this conversation spreading the subtle hindu phobia okay you know i completely agree
26:14with you hamed ansari was never a part of the congress party but the bjp says it is this this
26:20hindu
26:20phobia that this this mindset displays take for example a statement covid 19 is as a pandemic is
26:28bad enough but before it our society became a victim of two other pandemics religiosity and strident
26:33nationalism and the same hamed ansari backs the proposal of opening sharia courts in a country
26:40now is that not religiosity is that acceptable and who's othering the muslims then
26:47god of we must understand we are a constitutional democracy that is rule of law and as per the
26:53constitution there is no difference between you know citizens on grounds of faith and therefore
26:58you see an attempt is being made a political attempt to put people in boxes and put them under some
27:05kind
27:05of test as a you know british parliamentarian norman tebbitt used to say that you know when the
27:11uh indian cricket team visits uh uh united kingdom you know the indians residing in in uk who are baby
27:17british by citizenship they support the you know indian cricket team so this whole attitude of putting
27:23you know people to test on the issue of nationalism and you know judging their sense of belonging is i
27:29think is far-fetched but people cannot be above questioning there are no mathadish here you know
27:35uh something has to be very clear uh if hamed ansari has said something he should be open to
27:41scrutiny if he has said there should be sharia court let him be open to scrutiny if he thinks that
27:47nationalism is a pandemic let him be open to scrutiny but that is what i'm saying you're absolutely
27:52right gaurav you see but to link him with a with a community perhaps which he belongs to or a
27:58political party that he belongs to is i think unfair and it's politically motivated
28:03fair enough that's a debate that we shall continue to have or was it politically motivated for a very
28:09long time when such statements were being made by certain intellectuals and these were the intellectuals
28:15in our society were they uniting or were they dividing that's a question i leave our viewers
28:20to grapple with i want to thank all our guests many thanks for joining me
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