Aaron Dessner on Songwriting & Collaborating w/ Taylor Swift, Noah Kahan & Gracie Abrams | Billboard On The Record

Name: Aaron Dessner on Songwriting & Collaborating w/ Taylor Swift, Noah Kahan & Gracie Abrams | Billboard On The Record
Uploaded: 2026-09-23T06:12:21+00:00
Duration: 1 h 4 min 30 s
Channel: Billboard

00:00:00I feel like I'm a born collaborator because I'm a twin. It's like built into my psyche.

00:00:04Gracie and Noah and Taylor, three collaborators of yours. What do each of them bring to the table

00:00:09that you find to be particularly their special sauce? I mean, they're all brilliant. Taylor's

00:00:14like watching some master painter create a masterpiece within minutes. Back when you guys

00:00:20were first getting started, you guys founded Brassland, your own record label. Yeah, that

00:00:25wasn't the first label we made. Later, we made something called People. You have a new label

00:00:30through Interscope, Longpon Music. What are your goals with that? The idea with it is really like to

00:00:36give a home to music, which might need more time to develop. If Longpon is a place where people feel

00:00:42for some reason comfortable, sometimes it would be nice if there was like a direct outlet for that.

00:00:48So you co-founded Boston Calling? I want to know the origin story for that.

00:00:52This opportunity came up to do a festival and we just kind of got together and tried it and it

00:00:58worked.

00:01:03If you want to make a great record, you should probably call Aaron Dessner.

00:01:06The longtime guitarist and songwriter of the beloved indie rock outfit The National

00:01:11and producer behind some of the most defining pop records of the 2020s,

00:01:15Dessner has become a trusted collaborator of everyone from Taylor Swift,

00:01:19Gracie Abrams, Mumford & Sons, Ed Sheeran, Noah Kahn, and Bon Iver.

00:01:24But his multi-decade legacy in music also goes even beyond all of that success.

00:01:29Dessner first got his band going by co-founding independent label Brassland to put out their

00:01:33records. And he has also played a pivotal role in founding festivals like Boston Calling,

00:01:39Eau Claire, and The National's Homecoming Festival in Cincinnati.

00:01:42So today on the show, we are going to go deep with Dessner about a few things.

00:01:47One, the art of collaboration.

00:01:49And two, how he's managed to create a lasting career as an artist, producer, composer,

00:01:55and even businessman in an industry where longevity is never a guarantee.

00:02:00Aaron Dessner, welcome to On The Record. Thanks for being here.

00:02:03Thank you. Thanks for having me.

00:02:04I'm so excited to have you here because we're going to be talking a lot about collaboration,

00:02:08which has really defined, I feel like, your entire career, actually, being in a band,

00:02:12being in The National for so long, also doing all this great collaboration over the last,

00:02:17what, what year is it? 2026? Six years or so?

00:02:20Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:21Yeah.

00:02:21I feel like I'm a born collaborator because I'm a twin, so.

00:02:25It's built in.

00:02:26It's like built into my psyche.

00:02:28I mean, you guys have collaborated together throughout your entire music career.

00:02:31When you were kids, was that always the, like, we're going to stick together and make music

00:02:35together? Or did you ever have those moments as a twin where you're like,

00:02:38I need to do my own thing?

00:02:39We were, we shared a room until we were 18 and went to college and pretty much did

00:02:46everything together. Like same, played all the same sports and played music at the same time.

00:02:53And so at some point he was, Bryce was more geared towards like his brain just gravitated

00:02:59towards notation and music theory and reading music and then like composition.

00:03:05And I was much more like emotional and a little bit more melancholic as a person.

00:03:11So I would like play more emotionally and try to write songs and try to figure out like exactly

00:03:19like how Paul Simon was fingerpicking and like do all these things. And then we would play off of

00:03:24each other. But we were super competitive also. So like almost, almost to the point where like,

00:03:30we both would like be running scales at the same time to see who was faster. And like,

00:03:36there is definitely like a, I mean, it wasn't like mean to each other, but it was definitely,

00:03:41we were pushing each other. So pretty quickly we developed like a lot of agility, which doesn't

00:03:47make you a good musician necessarily. It just was like, it was great training.

00:03:53I do believe though, like as a producer, you sometimes have to pick up an instrument that's

00:03:57not your favorite top instrument and have to have some level of dexterity with that. So

00:04:02that's probably helpful.

00:04:03It's super helpful for me. Like it's kind of why I can hang, I think, because a lot of times

00:04:09I'm in the room with people who I think are far more gifted, like in certain ways. And so,

00:04:16but like I can hang instrumentally for sure in most situations. Um, and that does come from like

00:04:22ancient, uh, as a kid, just like being kind of cultivating, not virtuosity, but just, you know,

00:04:31totally playing a lot, just doing your reps. Yeah. Yeah. So I've often heard from songwriters and

00:04:38producers that when they're maybe building a room of, of collaborators that, you know, you kind of want

00:04:44to have people who are good at certain things. So maybe you pull in one songwriter because they're

00:04:48just incredible melodies, but then this other person is incredible, like can pick up any instrument

00:04:53and play it at the drop of a hat. Um, I'm wondering what you kind of see is the thing

00:04:57that you bring.

00:04:58That's a great question. I, I feel like I bring in sort of unguarded emotionality or something where

00:05:08it's like, don't have a big ego. So I'm not kind of like telling people what to do or having

00:05:16some

00:05:16giant creative direction that I'm pushing. It's more like giving other people space to like,

00:05:25to be emotional and to be vulnerable and being able to like harness that musically. It's very rare

00:05:31that I've been in a situation where I get stuck, where there's no idea. It's like just, um, maybe I'm

00:05:37not

00:05:37answering this super well, but I feel like I bring in a musical current that's emotional essentially,

00:05:43and that people find meaning in more often than not. So it's like, they kind of like,

00:05:48and that can take different forms sonically, but it's just basically, um, like thinking more from

00:05:56a place of like heart rather than intellectually or commercially, or like, this is Roxy music meets

00:06:05the cocktail tunes. I just don't think like that. Although maybe it'd be cool if I did, but I just

00:06:09don't. I know Noah Kahn recently said to Rolling Stone, he, he described you as like, like a therapist

00:06:14almost and like really allowed him to open up. And I know you guys worked on the great divide together.

00:06:20Um, I'm wondering, like, is that kind of an intentional approach of like, I want to intentionally

00:06:26set this tone of like, I will listen to you. I will hear you. Or is it just something that

00:06:32happens innately due to your personality? It's interesting. I mean, I feel like Noah or

00:06:38Gracie or Taylor, or some of these people would probably answer that question better than I can,

00:06:44but it's definitely like my entry point to serious music and probably how I ended up being

00:06:53in this life of music was because I needed to, to express myself through it and be emotional and

00:07:00found it therapeutic, um, to make music, not really knowing what it's for. So I'm still oriented

00:07:09to that where like, don't actually really care if something becomes a song or if we like, if Noah

00:07:15comes and we hang out and we don't make any songs, it's still like a nice day and you get

00:07:21to be

00:07:23friend, you know, develop friendship. And I still really do value that. And I think people might,

00:07:28people feel it. Whereas I think a lot of times in music, it, it, because it is an industry,

00:07:35it is a business. Like it becomes like industrialized to a point where like a lot of people are used

00:07:41to

00:07:41sitting in writer's rooms or going on like speed dating of like sessions with people. I've never

00:07:48really done that. Like hardly, I don't know if it's like, I haven't really done it. So it's, I think

00:07:53probably when people like Noah have come to Long Pun, it does feel relaxed. It feels like

00:07:59it's my, I literally live there. And then we're just in a beautiful space seeing what happens. And

00:08:06it does, it's therapy for me to do that. And I think it rubs off, you know? And I do,

00:08:11I tend to

00:08:12connect with people that are making music, which is really emotional, you know? Um, so yeah. Yeah.

00:08:19Well, I guess to turn it on the other way, cause you're saying like maybe Gracie or Noah could maybe

00:08:24answer that question better. What do you think Gracie and Noah and Taylor, three collaborators of

00:08:29yours, what do each of them bring to the table that you find to be particularly their special sauce?

00:08:34I mean, they're all brilliant to a point of like, I mean, obviously Taylor's, um,

00:08:41um, has gifts that are just so exceptional and kind of, um, other, otherworldly where you

00:08:51almost feel like she's the brightest person you've encountered or in most rooms, like her,

00:08:59the speed of creativity and ability to, to say, say things in interesting way, like to, to

00:09:08give voice to her emotions and to certain narratives and such brilliant language with the musical mind

00:09:16that she has, where she's able to really hear a song. Sometimes she'll, she'll hear the entire

00:09:20architecture of a song sometimes within minutes, you know? And it's like, it's like watching

00:09:27some master painter create a masterpiece within minutes, you know? Um, and elevate something you've

00:09:35done. Like a lot of times it's in the past, like with folklore or what, whichever record she would

00:09:41be connecting with the music and elevate it to a place I never could have imagined was possible. Um,

00:09:50so she, yeah, she's just one of a kind really. Um, and has worked so hard at it for so

00:09:58long that

00:09:58you're like, you can feel that in her presence. Yeah. She's like master craftsman. And, and then I think

00:10:05Noah is without a doubt, one of the most gifted lyricists and singers I've encountered where

00:10:14he's kind of like, you know, call me when you miss the climb from a hole that has no bottom.

00:10:20Like he's just sitting, like you're making music and then suddenly he writes things where you're like

00:10:24full body chills type. Yeah. And then his gift as a singer and his, he's as good a singer as

00:10:31I've

00:10:31ever heard. And I've been around major people and just been, been able to be in the studio when people

00:10:39perform and Noah's has amazing capacity and writes from this place of where you really feel he needs

00:10:48to write the songs that he's writing and they're just authentically, he's so in them. Um, and it just

00:10:55really, it's like, get out of the way. He's the feeling I have like, let it happen. Um, so I

00:11:01don't

00:11:01know, I can speak about him forever. And then, and Gracie similarly, she is, she's one of my favorite

00:11:10songwriters and lyricists and singer singers where he, she has this, you feel like she's right in your

00:11:17ear. She's it's so intimate and so vulnerable. Um, and so authentic where she's coming from and

00:11:24having made a lot of music with her actually in the room where we're doing it simultaneously writing

00:11:29and she's processing and writing lyrics while I'm making the music and we're guiding each other.

00:11:36And she's, she's another person who thinks so quickly and sharply on her when she, when she finds

00:11:44her muse or when she has a thread, it's like surgical. She's just like, it's just like a laser

00:11:50beam almost, or you're just like, Whoa. Um, so, but they all, I mean, there's a lot of nuance to

00:11:58any artists and they all have them, you know, Gracie has this, these turns of phrase that are

00:12:03uniquely hers, you know, I call them Gracie isms. There's just ways of like saying things that feel

00:12:10just, just, just you couldn't think of it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, so you've mentioned

00:12:16Long Pond, which is your studio. Also, you live there. Um, how much do you feel a sense of place

00:12:22impacts the music that you make and how creative you feel? Definitely like Long Pond itself,

00:12:27it feels like a instrument in itself where it's, there's a lot of inherent magic there that I think

00:12:35was is this it's in the Hudson Valley, which is a very historic corridor of the United States for

00:12:41the Hudson River comes up from New York City. And there's these tiny Dutch towns dot the river bank

00:12:48going north and more than 200 years of artists coming out of New York City were sort of woodshedding

00:12:53up in the Hudson Valley and then in musicians, but there's kind of a long history of creative,

00:13:00creativity through there. And you can drive two hours and you're in New York City, you feel like

00:13:04you're very much in the countryside and like the grocery store is 30 minutes away. And, um,

00:13:10that night there's like coyotes and a giant black bear on the other side of the pond. And there's,

00:13:16you know, I tell people like, be a little careful because there's a large lynx that likes to hang out

00:13:21in front of the door of the studio. It should be like the mascot of the studio. Yeah. But I

00:13:26think it's,

00:13:26it just feels, it feels like you're kind of like not on vacation, but it's like a place you might

00:13:34just

00:13:34go to go, you know, um, check it out. Um, so that helps a lot. And then the studio was

00:13:40built,

00:13:40there was an old horse barn there from like, it was an 18th century house and this old horse barn

00:13:46that we took down to build the studio. And we were very intentional about placing it so that you can

00:13:51see

00:13:52water all the time and there's a lot of air and light and, uh, and just, it feels good to

00:13:58be in

00:13:58there. And I think most, most people that I've, that have come to collaborate, they really benefit

00:14:04from the space itself and just like feeling like in the hot, super high, like church, like

00:14:09ceilings and it just feels good, you know? Um, so I, I feel like I got lucky a little bit

00:14:13with,

00:14:14with that cause there was intention, but it's even nicer than I could have dreamed up.

00:14:21Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that feels like one of those, uh, I guess not a forever home cause it's a

00:14:26studio,

00:14:26but it's, it's also your home. So it feels like one of those, it's a culmination of,

00:14:30okay, I've been successful. I can do the thing I exactly want to make so I can make my music

00:14:35in

00:14:35the place I want to make it. Um, what were you doing before Long Pond? Where was, where were you

00:14:39frequenting? Well, before Long Pond, I lived in Brooklyn, um, from, I went to Columbia and then I just stayed

00:14:47basically in the city and moved to Brooklyn in the late nineties. And I bought a house in Ditmas Park,

00:14:53which is like this Victorian neighborhood in Brooklyn, kind of looks like Buffalo or something

00:14:57like a freestanding houses. And they have little garages from the 1920s. And I turned my garage into

00:15:03a studio. Like when around the time the national made boxer, um, and that was kind of the place that

00:15:11I,

00:15:12that the band worked and that I, like when I produced Sharon Van Etten's Tramp, it was in

00:15:17there and like early records that I made were all there. And I knew when I moved upstate that I

00:15:24wanted to create something that was like that, but on a much larger scale, but that had that kind of

00:15:29like intimacy, which still, you know, like, even though Long Pond is much bigger than the tiny garage,

00:15:35like it's still the same way of working basically. After doing so many outside collaborations,

00:15:42you came back with the national, made an album in 2023. I imagine y'all are probably working on more

00:15:47stuff now. I'm wondering how the outside collaborations have fed the national and the

00:15:53sound that you're going for nowadays. The national is starting to like brew or like

00:15:58that's Reese the, all that the old engine is starting to, we're tuning it up. And I think,

00:16:06um, I think that the sound, you know, we've made all kinds of different records over the years.

00:16:12We love them all. I think we recorded every sound check for like 18 months before we stopped touring

00:16:21in October, 2024. And there basically we were improvising on stage and just kind of playing like we used to

00:16:27play a long time ago. Um, like in the beginning searching for things. And I don't know if that'll

00:16:33be the direction, but I think in general, I think everyone wants to come together without a preconceived

00:16:39notion. Um, and just like, it might be a really avant-garde, strange experimental record. It might be

00:16:47like a really loud rock and roll record, but I definitely will be something in between those two things.

00:16:53So I love it. I can't wait. Whenever, whenever it happens, I'm there. Okay. Thank you. Um,

00:16:59I'm excited. Like I miss, I think that the band, it's like a family, it's literally a, like a,

00:17:06another family. So when you go away from it, it can be healthy to get some space, but then

00:17:11at some point you all, everyone is like, wait, where are my brothers? You know?

00:17:15Yeah.

00:17:15And it definitely feels like that now. So it'd be good.

00:17:18Yeah. You need the distance a little bit to make the heart grow fonder again.

00:17:21Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember I listened to a past interview that you did where you were

00:17:25talking about, uh, 2019 kind of like pre pandemic. I think it was 2019, somewhere right before

00:17:31everything changed in the world, you went into lockdown and you were coming off of a

00:17:36tour with the national where you were just really exhausted. Um, and I have thought so long and hard

00:17:43about how exhausting touring must be for an artist. I recently got to see Noah Khan actually. And I was

00:17:48like, Oh my God, he gives every ounce of energy that he has on that stage and got to see

00:17:56the

00:17:56heiress tour twice. I felt the same way. Well, I mean, I, it's like a feat of athleticism to see

00:18:01the heiress tour. I know you've reflected before about how Taylor Swift is such a hardworking

00:18:06artist. I mean, obviously Noah Khan is as well. I always wonder about like how people keep the

00:18:11creative juices flowing while in such peak exhaustion. And I wonder in your period of

00:18:17exhaustion where you're coming off of your tour, how you were feeling creatively, did it feel like

00:18:22the creative well was being run dry? Yeah. I mean, I think when you're on tour,

00:18:29it's not, even if you are comfortable and you're at a level where like the national got to the point

00:18:36we're playing arenas and there's a 40 people in the crew and it's like, you're comfortable.

00:18:42You're still bait after five shows or something. You're basically running on fumes. Cause to be

00:18:48like on stage for three hours or two and a half hours from 9 PM to 11 something. And then

00:18:57like takes

00:18:57you out to wind down and then do it again in some other city in Taylor's case, like more than

00:19:01three

00:19:02hours. Even if you're healthy about it, you do, you hit a wall of exhaustion. Like I'm sure Noah,

00:19:10having been on tour for three months, you know, has hit the wall. Yeah. Literally.

00:19:14Um, I, over the years I learned that it would be healthy to, to bring, we started bringing,

00:19:24we called it mini pond. It was like a, the tiny long pond, but it was just a pelican case.

00:19:28And I would set it up backstage in a room and like try to be creative. Um, and that did

00:19:36like,

00:19:36that's where I made most of the music, which became folklore was made before the pandemic on

00:19:42tour with the national in like little weird rooms and arenas in Europe where I would like

00:19:47Bella Blasco's amazing engineer came on tour and we would just go in these little rooms and like

00:19:52make stuff. So it, it, I think, but for a lot of people, especially, I think from a lyrical

00:19:58point of view, I think when you're performing and you're doing like having that thing of thousands

00:20:04of people looking at you every night and giving these performances, you're not, you're probably not

00:20:07going into your tour bus or your hotel room and like writing a song. I think you're then you're going

00:20:13in there and like spacing out and falling asleep. Yeah. Coming down from an insane high.

00:20:18Yeah. Yeah. And it's mentally, it's not, it's not, it's like, it's such an, such an amazing thing

00:20:25to do and so special and this communal catharsis, but it's also like there are adverse effects,

00:20:32even if you're not like drinking and doing bad things. But yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up

00:20:37folklore. Cause one of my favorite songs of Taylor's is peace from that album. And to me,

00:20:43that sounds like it also could have been on a big red machine album. Yeah. Um, I, I told you

00:20:48before we started filming that big red machine, that first record in particular is one of my

00:20:52favorites. Uh, so I I'm just selfishly wondering if you can tell me more about the making of peace.

00:20:58Totally. I mean, that's a very astute observation because I think on the first big red machine record,

00:21:07there's a song called forest green that is, that has harmonized baselines, which actually it's

00:21:12Justin Vernon playing these like harmonized baselines, which I, it's like, that's one of

00:21:19my favorite pieces of music I've been involved in. And, and peace is, is based on a, a, a,

00:21:27he had given me a folder of starters, starters, he calls them like just random. In the case of peace,

00:21:34it's like this, that pulse that you hear at the beginning, um, was from Justin. And then I wrote

00:21:40three harmonized baselines to it that have like mix meter. And I think it was like a lot of

00:21:48folklore and evermore stuff. I just did it to do it. Uh, I didn't know that there would be a

00:21:53song

00:21:53really. Well, it was because I thought somebody would, this would be hard for someone to write to,

00:21:59you know? Um, and it has some weird little like extra bars and things that I just accidentally

00:22:05probably did. But when I, when Taylor approached me during the pandemic, she kind of said like,

00:22:13send me anything, like even the weirdest thing. Cause I think in my head, I was like, well, I don't

00:22:18know if I have anything that she might be able to dig into, but, but Taylor was clear. She's like,

00:22:23no, no, I'm interested in weird shit. Um, so that when I was like, okay, here's three harmonized

00:22:30baselines and a pulse, you know, with no clear structure. And she was like, bro, like it was

00:22:37actually, I think maybe the second or third song that she wrote and sent me a voice memo of. And

00:22:42I

00:22:43was like, holy shit. It sounds like Joni Mitchell just like saying or something, you know, it was like

00:22:47this like crazy thing. So it could, you're right that the music could have felt it was definitely

00:22:52big red machine adjacent or something. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I mean,

00:22:58Renegade was also such a good collaboration of y'all's actually did end up on a big red machine

00:23:02album. Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely Renegade was definitely like written in the wake of,

00:23:09I think I made the instrumental around the time of the Grammys where folklore one.

00:23:14Mm hmm. And, and, and Taylor had written to it, but we didn't know what she would be doing next

00:23:22or what record would come. Ultimately it was Midnight's that came, um, and Renegade kind of was

00:23:31like, put it, let's put it on the bigger machine record, which was awesome, you know? And, and I'm

00:23:36so proud of that. Yeah. You brought up the Grammys, you won album of the year for folklore with Taylor

00:23:42Swift, but you have won Grammys before with the national. I'm wondering how you compare those

00:23:47experiences, um, winning, I think it was best alternative album, um, with the national to

00:23:52winning main category, best album album of the year for folklore. Yeah. It's funny. Like, um,

00:23:59I think of orbiter, like how, like how stiff and awkward, um, my first, you know, the red carpet,

00:24:06the red note is singing about just like his first time losing our first time losing was the national,

00:24:12like it was nominated for trouble will find me, which like national fans typically rate that higher

00:24:19than sleep well beast, which was ultimately won the Grammy. I don't, I kind of put them on the same

00:24:27level, but basically we had gone in 2014 or 15 to the Grammys, but our car, you know,

00:24:35it was the first time the national was nominated for trouble finding. We were dropped off.

00:24:40I think we didn't realize that you kind of have to know where you're going. So we were dropped off

00:24:43like under an overpass and we walked in our tuxedos, like a mile. And by the time, by the time

00:24:51we got

00:24:52there, we had like sweated through our clothing and we were just like, and then we were sitting

00:24:57in the pre telecast. We didn't know that there's the real Grammys and then there's the like pre

00:25:02Grammys. I mean, it's all the real Grammys, but you know what I mean? Yeah. The televised. Yeah.

00:25:06So we're sitting there and we're like, and then Vampire Weekend won, which is great. And they're

00:25:10amazing. And then, but they got up there and they were just like, thank you. And then left. And we

00:25:14were

00:25:14like, that's it. It's like, we just walked a mile. So the next time we got like a couple of

00:25:20years later,

00:25:21we got nominated again for sleep obese and we didn't go. Well, Scott went our basis,

00:25:26but the rest of us didn't go. Cause we were kind of felt like, well, we're never going to win.

00:25:30It's just like, we're going to like sweat through our clothes. Like, let's just like not go. And then

00:25:34I was in the shower and my like three-year-old daughter ran upstairs and was like, daddy,

00:25:40you want a Grammy? Like, cause our friends have been watching and she was like, is that bad? And I

00:25:45was

00:25:46like, no, I think it's okay. But it was just, we weren't there. So it was kind of funny. Um,

00:25:50so that compared to winning with Taylor was a very different experience. Cause with Taylor,

00:25:55it's like, first of all, the main album category is that's like intense sort of

00:26:03thing of like, it's this high drama and a lot of expectation. And I didn't, I don't think I

00:26:10understood how big that was or what it meant or how competitive it was. Cause I sort of

00:26:20really come from this indie, like more that world where like the Grammys aren't super

00:26:27relevant. Like Sufjan hasn't won a Grammy or like, you know, but I was amazing. It was just,

00:26:32it was such a crazy feeling to be there. It was the pandemic Grammy. So it was kind of fun

00:26:37because you didn't have to be around like tons of people. Everyone was just like wearing masks and

00:26:41sort of like, I was sitting with Taylor a little bit and it was just fun. We were just like

00:26:45talking

00:26:46through our masks and, um, but yeah, different experiences. Oh my gosh. I forgot that that was

00:26:51the pandemic Grammys. That was such an, it was honestly an odd thing to watch.

00:26:54I know it was fun for the, it was actually as sad as it was like that you didn't have

00:27:00all of the

00:27:01gallantry. It was also kind of interesting, you know, it was like very hermetically sealed.

00:27:07Yeah. I mean, that must be nice for some of the biggest stars to be like, okay,

00:27:10there's not like a ton of people who are in the stands watching and you know, it's a little bit

00:27:15more just, you had to be there if you're supposed to be there and that's it. Yeah.

00:27:19If you're a songwriter, composer, or music publisher, joining a performing rights organization

00:27:23is essential for your career. And there's only one PRO where you truly belong. ASCAP. ASCAP

00:27:30represents over 1.1 million music creators and publishers, including this episode's guest,

00:27:36Aaron Dessner. Their mission, ensuring that you get paid royalties whenever your music is streamed,

00:27:42broadcast, or performed live. So what sets them apart? ASCAP is the only American PRO

00:27:48founded and governed by music creators. Because they put creators first, 90 cents of every dollar

00:27:54that they collect goes directly back to their songwriters, composers, and publishers. Not to

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00:28:24to get

00:28:24started. You mentioned you come from like kind of the indie rock world. And I was kind of thinking,

00:28:30in preparation of this, how bands like The National are so critically acclaimed,

00:28:37get typically such great reviews from, you know, the likes of- Typically, not always.

00:28:42I did not review all the Pitchfork album reviews before this, but I imagine they're pretty good.

00:28:47Most of the time.

00:28:48Most of the time. But yeah, like coming from this place where critical acclaim and being big but not

00:28:56gigantic is kind of the goal. And then moving over into doing more collaborations with folks who are

00:29:04signed to major labels, working for more commercial popular music. I wondered if you had any moments

00:29:12where you were wondering whether that was the path you wanted to go down. Because I know sometimes

00:29:18in the indie scene, it's like a little bit more like, you know, are you working with the biggest

00:29:24pop stars in the world? Is there some sort of like negative connotation to that at first?

00:29:29Tell me about your thought process and moving through the worlds.

00:29:31It's been an interesting dichotomy at times because when The National started, it was still really the

00:29:40heyday of, you know, coolness and indie rock and things like The Strokes and Interpol and all those

00:29:49bands were- Those were the big things when we started these very critically acclaimed and popular

00:29:57records. But it was like we were kind of chasing something. We wanted to make music that was

00:30:06like in that world. It was really kind of what we were listening to. And we were signed to 4AD,

00:30:13which is like, you know, Pixies and that kind of legacy. But over time, as the band got bigger and

00:30:19bigger and you start hitting your head on this weird glass ceiling of like, it doesn't actually,

00:30:26at some point, like all of like genres and labels, like it just doesn't matter so much. I don't really

00:30:35care what lane someone's in if you're making something that you believe in together, which is

00:30:42really because my first real exposure to massive mainstream music was through Taylor and she

00:30:50couldn't be more credible and sort of- Totally.

00:30:54Craft oriented. So I didn't really- and also it was the pandemic, so I was so insulated from

00:31:01what it meant. And I think I just- and she actually, I think, did a really beautiful job of

00:31:06not protecting me, but she was kind of just- we never talked about 1989 or-

00:31:12any other record that she had made that was so gigantic. We were just making what we were making.

00:31:17Um, so, but over time, it was a crazy thing to suddenly be very recognizable to people because-

00:31:25Yeah.

00:31:25Um, of having been on stage or being photographed and, you know, and those kinds of things.

00:31:31And that was a, it took me a second to get used to that. Um, but, and I think, but

00:31:38the way I would say,

00:31:39I still try not to worry about like the commercial aspect of things because it just,

00:31:47you can't control the outcome. You can only make what you want to make. And most of my experiences

00:31:52have been really positive where like, like Gracie, for example, Interscope has been, I've never felt

00:31:59pressure from them and they've really allowed her to develop and make what she wanted to make. And

00:32:06it kind of, you don't feel like pressure to try to make hits. It's just like, make the songs that

00:32:13you want to make. That's not always the case. Yeah. That's great that she has that.

00:32:17It's great that she has it and it's allowed her to grow. Um, and they took a long view and

00:32:21then

00:32:21it was amazing when The Secret of Us blew up the way that it did because it kind of felt

00:32:25like

00:32:25earned at that point. It is definitely an issue where like that is in the room sometimes with

00:32:33certain artists where it's, it's less the artists, more like the machinery around them and the pressure

00:32:37of like, especially if they've already had hits, you know? Um, and so in the kind of parasocial world

00:32:45that we live in where everything is like so fast and the data is so readily available, it's like people

00:32:51are, it's a little bit like a, I can, it can be overwhelming when people are like thinking that

00:32:58way. Yeah. I find it so fascinating. Like what you're saying, becoming more, um, I guess like a,

00:33:04more of a public figure in being a producer. Cause that's usually a role that's behind the scenes that

00:33:08people don't always know what a producer looks like. And yet you were an artist before you just

00:33:13kind of entered like a mainstream consciousness in a way that you hadn't previously. Yeah. Um,

00:33:19like, I think I'd been used to being obviously recognized as being in the national and all that

00:33:25stuff. Cause it'd been around and have being had success in that way, but it's not comparable to

00:33:31the wider world of Taylor Swift level of media and all that. And it wasn't. And then having done all

00:33:38this other stuff since it, I'm fine with it. It was awkward at first, you know, or something,

00:33:44it was just kind of like, get used to it. And the phones, they're just that feeling of like

00:33:49being more exposed. What I love about where music is today is that songs, you never really know what's

00:33:56going to work. You know, you just have to make like Noah's record is a good example where Orbiter,

00:34:01nobody would have said Orbiter would be a weird hit. Cause it's like, wasn't even on the main

00:34:06record. And it's just this like beautiful, slow kind of pastoral dark song. Um, and that the fans

00:34:18made it a hit, you know, is really, um, it's really cool. So I, I, I enjoy that feeling of

00:34:25just

00:34:25focusing on the music basically and never know something happened. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

00:34:31we're in this time where it does sometimes feel random what songs take off and it's because

00:34:35fans get decided, but also algorithms are very unknowable. You don't know why people keep getting

00:34:40led to Orbiter, but they're liking it and great. And, um, but I mean, the way you started your

00:34:45career back in about like 2000, 2001, the industry was in a totally different place. But hearing about

00:34:52an artist that started in the early two thousands, I think Napster, the switch over to downloads. Can you

00:34:57kind of paint a picture for me of what it felt like trying to come up as an emerging artist

00:35:01at that

00:35:01time? I mean, you kind of can feel nostalgic about it now because back then, if you would get in

00:35:07your

00:35:07car, like we used to tour around and play for sometimes no one, but you would feel like, oh, if,

00:35:15if we could get the door person to buy a CD there, the next time we come, there'll be five

00:35:20people

00:35:20instead of one. Like we literally played shows where it was like the door person and the bartender.

00:35:24Yeah. Um, and we got paid not to play a couple of times, you know, where they're like, if you

00:35:30don't

00:35:30mind, we're just going to go home, you know? Um, and, but there was a feeling still that you were

00:35:36doing the work, you know? And I feel like that is less, less accessible now where it's like, it is

00:35:43kind of like, you have to be on social media in this kind of 360 degree way, if you really

00:35:49want to

00:35:49make a go of it. And then, um, people still tour and that's important. But like, I feel like

00:35:55what's more dominant is this feeling of like being a personality that is living in this social medium.

00:36:04I do feel like Spotify and Apple and the other streamers like have ultimately benefited

00:36:11music by making it more democratic where like more people can put out music and there's less

00:36:17of a barrier to it. The economics are problematic still, but I think, um, you don't need, like,

00:36:23there are a lot of people that put music out and do quite well that don't really have a lot

00:36:27of machinery around them. If you're a band like us and people listen, like we don't have a casual

00:36:32audience. We have like a cult audience, the national does. Um, and so they just keep wanting

00:36:37to listen to all of it. And that's really good. Cause like, it just is a positive thing. Just put

00:36:43out more music and sometimes you don't have to make physical, um, copies, but I'm, I am nostalgic for like

00:36:50the time when riding around, like, like self booking a tour in Italy and renting of like little car,

00:36:59like that, that seemed like a good idea. Yeah. Like scraping together all your resources,

00:37:03we're going to go to Italy and it's going to be the big break. Yeah. We used to do that.

00:37:06And then

00:37:06like, now I'd be like, you're totally insane. Yeah. Now it's like, post another TikTok before

00:37:12you go, go to Italy. Back when you guys were first getting started, I thought this was really

00:37:16interesting. I didn't know this, that you guys, you Bryce and a music executive founded, um,

00:37:22Brassland at your own record label. Yeah. Okay. So you were self-releasing.

00:37:26Why was that? Um, how you guys got your start? Why, why did y'all decide to go that route?

00:37:31Well, so in the beginning, like the first national record we'd made in 2000

00:37:36and we put it out in 2001 with our friend, Alec Bemis, who was, he had had a,

00:37:42a zine in high school called Brassland and then went to college with my brother. And basically the

00:37:49national had made its first record and clogs, which was this chamber quartet that my brother

00:37:54had had made a record that was just like avant-garde baroque sounding chamber music. And, um, Alec was

00:38:02like, well, no, one's going to put this out. I'll put it out. And we were like, okay, you're probably

00:38:06right. Um, and actually at the time, I think we sent it to Matador and they were like, uh, like,

00:38:12not with a 10 foot bull, um, which we like, we definitely gave them

00:38:17shit later on about that. And they definitely regretted it. Like, Hey,

00:38:20you could have gotten the national if you just put out my brother's baroque.

00:38:23I know. Um, but we did it like we've made everything ourselves, ran that label and put

00:38:29out a lot of other things and kind of had it, it still exists today where my brother and I

00:38:34aren't

00:38:34involved anymore, but, um, that wasn't the first label we made. We like later, we made something

00:38:39called people. Um, that was like a kind of, it was another label based on something we'd done in

00:38:45Berlin with this residency where again, I was trying to give a home to music, which wouldn't

00:38:51normally be commercially viable for other labels and kind of like encouraging people to make work

00:38:58that they wouldn't normally make. And also to, to sort of distribute the, the authorship and revenue

00:39:08sharing more widely amongst all the people involved in making some things. It was like an amazing

00:39:13experiment. We lost a lot of money doing it. So eventually we had to close it. It was my brother,

00:39:17I and Justin Vernon with the secretly group, but we've had an interest in this all along of like

00:39:23trying to, trying to experiment with how things work and to give back. And like, just still to this

00:39:30day, I feel like all artists, whether they're like incredibly successful or completely unknown,

00:39:37they benefit from opportunities to make music they wouldn't normally make or to put out something

00:39:44that is like, you know, let's, let's do a project today and put it out next week and not have

00:39:50it

00:39:50like my Fred again. Um, Fred Gibson and I did a set at Eau Claire this summer, this festival that

00:39:56Justin and

00:39:56I started where we wrote an hour of music in two days and then performed it and recorded it. And

00:40:04I think

00:40:05we'll put it out maybe as like a, uh, some sort of vinyl for charity or something. And I love

00:40:10this

00:40:10music, but we don't have to make a big deal out of it and like put it out as a,

00:40:13a big project.

00:40:15Although we could do that, but I think it would make more sense as something very special.

00:40:19It sounds like you do know a lot about like the business industry side of things, which a lot of

00:40:24creatives don't really want to know much about. And I'm wondering how learning about the music

00:40:31industry, the music business through all of these different efforts that you've done,

00:40:34um, how has that informed how you move as an artist?

00:40:39Started festivals and started record labels and

00:40:43residencies and all the, like really experimented quite a lot and done a lot of cross-disciplinary

00:40:50collaborations. So like with filmmakers and visual artists and dance companies and,

00:40:56you know, made weird art music a lot with my brother, played in art galleries for shows and things

00:41:02like that. And like, I've found every time you take a risk and step outside of your lane of like,

00:41:11in my case now, like making high profile, exciting new collaborative records with people whose names,

00:41:20you know, like, but that's, and I love doing that. But if I go recently, I went to British Columbia

00:41:27to

00:41:27participate in a, a new visual art of collaboration with a visual artist where we were playing music,

00:41:34like in the forest. And that was incredibly nourishing to me. And I knew like, it made no sense on

00:41:42any

00:41:42calendar or any financial statement, but like, it was very nourishing. And so I, I feel like

00:41:49that's what I try to remind everyone I work with is just like, don't, we don't have to know what

00:41:56this

00:41:56is all the time, or we don't have to be so strategic, you know, it's like your, because your biggest

00:42:02breakthrough might be when you're not thinking about it. And you're also, people put a lot of

00:42:07pressure on themselves, especially once they've had success to follow it up or to kind of like,

00:42:13and I think it can be all that pressure. If you're being critical of yourself in the moment,

00:42:19it's just a distraction from like this, like having an actual breakthrough or having a spark

00:42:25in the room where it's like magic actually happens. So it's a long-winded answer, but I think it's like

00:42:31just trying to tune out the, the business side of it. Cause like, if you make music that's

00:42:38intentional and beautiful, there will be an audience for it, whether it's a massive one or a tiny one, or

00:42:43like some of my favorite things that I've done that have really impacted my life.

00:42:49And my career aren't actually like generating a lot of revenue, but they're like these things

00:42:56where like, I can feel artistically really proud of them and they give you confidence or they

00:43:01nourish your, your mind. Yeah. Well, you have a new label through Interscope, right? It's called

00:43:09Long Pond Records. Yeah. Long Pond Music. Long Pond Music. Okay. So what are your goals with that?

00:43:15What kind of artists have you, have you signed anything yet? Tell me more.

00:43:19We signed Hudson Ingram, who's this amazing songwriter. Um, he, and we've sort of put out an EP and he,

00:43:31he's someone who's come to Long Pond and like worked a bunch with me and I feel really hopeful for

00:43:36him and

00:43:37love. He's just an amazing voice, amazing person. My, the idea with it is really like to give a home

00:43:45again to, to music, which might not, which might need more time to develop and like to flourish in a,

00:43:53in a,

00:43:54really, if Long Pond is a place where people feel for some reason comfortable, I can find their voice

00:44:03there, find, find songs and find sounds that like are inspiring. Sometimes it would be nice if there

00:44:11was like a direct outlet for that. Um, and I have had such an amazing, um, experience working with

00:44:20Interscope as a, you know, um, a label and with Charlie Christie and John Danik there and just feel

00:44:26very comfortable with them. So I feel like it's not, it's not so much about trying to build some

00:44:34giant, um, empire. It's more just like another way to enjoy this and, and give,

00:44:42help to foster other, uh, other artists growth basically. Yeah. When creatives create labels,

00:44:50I often wonder, cause I think it really depends on the person, like what kind of role they like to

00:44:55take on with it. Yeah. Some people are super hands off and it's kind of like in name only,

00:44:59and they signed someone that they worked with once and that's about it. And then some people are

00:45:03extremely hands on. So I'm wondering what your role is within Long Pond music.

00:45:08I mean, it's very early. So my, the idea is to be very involved creatively, um,

00:45:16both from actually writing and producing records for it, but also more from like an executive

00:45:23producer role of helping other writers and producers help to create records. Um, and growing,

00:45:33there's so much music I can't make because I don't have time or artists I want to work with, but

00:45:39because I also have kids and have, I coach the soccer team and like, I have a lot of other

00:45:44things

00:45:44I like to do. Um, so having another outlet to be like, why don't you guys come make a record

00:45:51here,

00:45:52you know, and we'll help put it out. Um, and wow, you're, cause a lot, you know, there's so many

00:45:57amazing artists that are coming up that don't find a home or don't find the right situation,

00:46:03but if they did, they might really, um, blossom. So yeah, that's always been something that I've said.

00:46:10I just wish that every artist was kind of given at least the right tools where if it's meant to

00:46:17happen for them, it will. Yeah. And there's just so many artists that end up in a situation where

00:46:21they just signed a deal too early and the label just did not make them a priority or something,

00:46:28or they get a manager and the manager turns out to just not really know what they're doing.

00:46:33And you, you are left to wonder sometimes five, 10 years down the line, did they not

00:46:37make it because of some of these industry things that happened behind the scenes that were just

00:46:42unfortunate missteps? Yeah. Or was it just that the music was never going to make it?

00:46:47And yeah, I, I often just hope that people had at least the right,

00:46:51infrastructure. But yeah, it's a good point you're making because there's so much music,

00:46:56lots of records I've made, which didn't find an audience. And I still listen to them. I'm like,

00:47:03kind of shocked. I'm like, did people just not hear this because it's so special. And it is,

00:47:09it's oftentimes it is, it's either like there wasn't luck or there wasn't the right moment of the

00:47:16pendulum swinging across the zeitgeist and like, oh, they didn't have their viral moment or whatever.

00:47:21it is. Young people coming up, making music, there's, there's not that many, like not everyone

00:47:28gets signed to whether it's great independent labels or great major labels. But like, I think

00:47:34the more you can take an interest in trying to help people, I enjoy that. Um, and there's so many

00:47:41really talented artists that I've come across who are really still basically unknown to the world,

00:47:49like not very much happening. And then you listen to their songs and you're just like,

00:47:54holy shit, like how, how does, how do people not know this? You know?

00:47:58Yeah. Yeah. And it's impossible to know what the factors are that didn't work, but yeah. Okay. So along

00:48:03with kind of the label ventures over time, you mentioned you have founded multiple festivals

00:48:09or been part of that. Um, I didn't realize that Eau Claire was something that you did

00:48:14with Justin Vernon. And then I really didn't know about Boston Calling.

00:48:18Yeah. Okay. So you co-founded Boston Calling?

00:48:21I did. Okay. Wow. How, I want to know the origin story for that. It's such a big festival now.

00:48:28Yeah. I mean, it was started, um, I feel like that was 2013, maybe. I can't remember exactly,

00:48:37but my friend Brian Appel and Jesse Dubay, um, Brian was a, had worked at radio station in Boston

00:48:45and his cousin, Jesse was a good friend of mine. And basically this opportunity came up to,

00:48:55to do a festival in city hall plaza in, in Boston. And at the time, like they were big fans

00:49:02of the

00:49:02national and we were all friends and we just kind of got together and tried it and it worked. So

00:49:08like, whoa, um, the first year the national played and we had, I can't even remember. Cause there's been

00:49:16so many years. So for a while it was in city hall plaza and then it got too big and

00:49:22we moved it to

00:49:22Harvard. And in the beginning I was very involved in curating and helping recruit people to play and

00:49:30the national often would play and other friends. And then gradually as it became bigger, I sort of

00:49:35became less involved that it just became a bigger thing. And that was a more, it was more commercial

00:49:42always from the start where I think my interest was more in line with like what we did with Eau

00:49:49Claire,

00:49:49which was really inspired by my, my brother had started a new music and art festival called Music Now

00:49:55in Cincinnati. We had always, we've always been into this kind of like thing, not so much, not at all

00:50:03for

00:50:05to build up a business and like make money from, it was more just like from a collaborate,

00:50:12collaborative point of view. So Bryce community gathering.

00:50:14Yeah. I had done this in Cincinnati where we're from, where the idea was like to, to this, it started

00:50:20in 2003, I think was in the idea was to invite people to come make new music and to experiment

00:50:27across disciplines. So I, and also across musical genres. So like, but like having classical musicians

00:50:33and folk and rock musicians all in the same program and visual artists and, and Justin had come to play

00:50:42that in 2008 or nine early in Bon Iver. And we knew each other before, but basically

00:50:51got inspired and I'd gone to visit him a bunch in Eau Claire. And it just felt like

00:50:55this community in Wisconsin was so musical and so interesting. And he was really just the tip of

00:51:03the iceberg. Like when, when you're there, you realize like, oh, there's this amazing music school

00:51:08at the college and there's a lot of like interesting people around. So we had kind of talked about it.

00:51:14And eventually we started Eau Claire, which again was like, the idea was not to be disruptive, but like

00:51:20mostly to invite people to do something they wouldn't normally do, you know? And so that was the

00:51:25genesis of it. And it happened that lived for a while and then the pandemic happened and it disappeared.

00:51:30Yeah. But it's back this year. It happened this year in July. Um, and Justin kind of like

00:51:37restarted and we all went again and played and it was just amazing. He played this like

00:51:43incredible, he spent a year sort of embodying Bob Dylan.

00:51:49Yes. Okay. Wait, I saw this on the lineup and I was like, what is going on?

00:51:52Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that, that's what it was. It was Bonnie Vera's Bob Dylan.

00:51:56Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Bond Dylan. Bond Dylan. Or Bob Iver. No, it was like, um,

00:52:04it was brilliant is he, he kind of assembled the perfect cast of characters to kind of like

00:52:10explore the Dylan song book in a particular way, like a very, like the choices of what he was playing

00:52:18and why and how were very specific to him and kind of this spiritual way and

00:52:25very meta like experience where he was just, I think almost, I guess it felt to me like from a

00:52:33distance as like he was exploring it artistically kind of to, he had to go in deep inside of it

00:52:38to

00:52:38understand it, this music that he just so dearly loves and to kind of celebrate it and do it justice.

00:52:45It's like to have one of the great, great art, like great artists of our generation,

00:52:50sort of embodying and covering the, one of the greatest American songwriters.

00:52:57And then to see that just for one night in this like base minor league baseball stadium in Eau Claire,

00:53:02Wisconsin, it sounds very, it sounds very like, um, weird and, and, but it was, it sounds great.

00:53:10It was great. I think I'm constantly impressed by Bonnie Vera, one of my favorite artists of all time also.

00:53:17Um, and I feel like the depth of Justin's musical knowledge is like really insane. I've seen quite

00:53:23a few interviews of him talking about just really, really, really obscure things.

00:53:28I have no doubt that he went deep on Bob Dylan in ways that I don't even know it's possible

00:53:35right now,

00:53:36but I mean, I know him extremely well. And it's like, he's when he decides to do something from an

00:53:41artistic point of view. It's like all in. And this was that, you know, it's like kind of a strange

00:53:49notion that he had. And it was so beautiful to watch because you felt like he was playing.

00:53:55It's like watching your favorite artists play

00:53:59the music with that. We've all kind of like inherited from the gods or something. It was just

00:54:04this weird, um, experiences. And I felt very inspired. I watched it with Fred out in the

00:54:11audience after we had just played this new music that we had written for the experience. And it felt

00:54:17like a very inspired day of like, just reminding yourself why you do this in the first place. And

00:54:24again, like it feeds back into your, to everything else, you know? So when you sit down to write a

00:54:29song

00:54:29with somebody a couple of weeks later or something, you've suddenly had these weird, like

00:54:35experiences that are like, they're flickering in your brain, you know, that's really, that's why I

00:54:39think it's important to do things like that. Yeah. What did you learn about throwing a music

00:54:45festival from these experiences? Like, what are the like kind of behind the scenes things that are

00:54:49required to make these festivals work that you didn't know before?

00:54:54I mean, you need someone who's very much watching the bottom line and kind of like cash flow and

00:55:03logistics. Like we, I started one in Copenhagen in Denmark called Haven. And it was, this is 2016,

00:55:12maybe. And the first year it sold out and we didn't have enough toilets and we didn't have enough food

00:55:22because we thought 10,000 people would come and 20,000 people came or something like that.

00:55:26Wow.

00:55:27And that's a disaster.

00:55:28Yeah. Wait, do you know about Woodstock 99?

00:55:30I've, yeah. It's like that. Yeah.

00:55:32So like,

00:55:33Hopefully it didn't get that bad, but yeah, just like overflowing porta potties.

00:55:37Yeah. So you can be like so excited. Oh my God, people are coming. And then the next,

00:55:39then you're like, wait, we don't have enough stuff. It helps. I think when you're doing something

00:55:45like, I, it was amazing to read about Olivia Rodrigo's, um, festival because it felt like

00:55:51it was so well conceived and run and it was such a success and amazing to see her emerge

00:55:59as this incredible leader and force. So that was clearly like they spent a lot of time thinking

00:56:06about it because it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of the logistics in particular and

00:56:12all

00:56:12the permitting and all the kind of like safety and all that stuff is really essential. Um, and

00:56:19then we always wanted it to be very localized and like, we wanted good food and we wanted there to

00:56:27be, we wanted there to be experiences, which were kind of like that couldn't exist elsewhere. So we

00:56:34would commission, we would often get into trouble because we would like commission someone to build

00:56:38a cathedral out of wire and have like an organ in it. And like, someone's going to play like

00:56:44Mozart in the, on the organ and like, but they're like, wait, what, why are we spending

00:56:50$400,000 on a wire cathedral? But yeah. Um, I have not planned a music festival, but I did do

00:56:58a very

00:56:58strange degree program in college. I was a music industry major and, uh, we had a festival class where

00:57:05we had to plan a festival. You should manage all of these crazy ideas that we have.

00:57:09Yeah. There we go. There we go. I'll do Eau Claire next year. Okay.

00:57:12Yeah. No, I accidentally invented a music festival that existed. I was like, I found the perfect place.

00:57:17I can't believe no one's used it yet. And then I presented it to these guys I knew and they

00:57:22were like,

00:57:22oh, isn't that Sasquatch festival? I was like,

00:57:26I'm like, it was such a good idea that it had already been done. That's how I'd like to phrase

00:57:31it. But yeah.

00:57:31At some point they proliferated to the point where like, they can't all exist, you know?

00:57:37But, um, but again, I enjoy, I enjoy it. Like we, the national has one called

00:57:44homecoming in Cincinnati, Ohio, and it just happens when it happens. So like,

00:57:47we've done it a number of times, but we, it's not like something that has to happen every year.

00:57:52I like that where you're kind of like, should we do it? Let's do it.

00:57:55Yeah. It removes the pressure. Okay. Aaron, let's play some games.

00:57:58Okay. All right.

00:57:59I hope I'm going to do okay. Okay. These are very fun questions. Easy questions.

00:58:04Uh, this is a game we call spin the record and we do it every show. So just spin the

00:58:08wheel and

00:58:08we'll see what it lands on. This wheel is like a little bit hard to spin, but there we go.

00:58:12What is the best and worst part of producing for you?

00:58:15Best part is like the initial inspiration. And when you first feel songs coming with someone

00:58:22and just this excitement of like, Oh, we can do it. Or we're in, we don't suck. You know,

00:58:27we like Camila Cabello was just at long fun and like, we found all these incredible things. And it was

00:58:34just really, cause it did feel like we were both sort of taking a risk or coming together. Um, and

00:58:41to

00:58:42find chemistry. That's the, that's, what's feels so amazing. The harder part is sort of seeing it all the

00:58:48way through. So like the tedious, like, I can't get that snare to sound right. Or like, why can't I,

00:58:56you know, finish the, taking it all the way and you have to be willing to climb the mountain of

00:59:01all the tedious, tedious tasks. So that's the hard part.

00:59:05Mm-hmm. That's how I feel about stories. I like to assign myself a lot of stories here. And then

00:59:09I'm

00:59:09like, I have to do that. Yeah.

00:59:12I liked the idea. Yeah.

00:59:14I don't want to do work. Okay. Spin again. Let's see. Okay.

00:59:19All right. What's your favorite song off The Great Divide?

00:59:22That's really hard. Cause I love the whole record, but Porchlight was the first one we wrote,

00:59:28Noah and I, and I think it's still kills me. So like, whatever made you famous, made you sick.

00:59:33Whenever I hear that, I'm just like, somehow like really relate to it. But, but I have to also shout

00:59:38out Spoiled, which Noah wrote and like that, you know, you can fuck up all you want and blame it

00:59:44all on

00:59:44your dad, which like, I feel like I just really relate to it. And also for my kids,

00:59:50like whenever I play that in the car, I'm just like, I go like, and they're just like,

00:59:55I don't know. How old are your kids now?

00:59:58They're 15. Okay. Yeah.

01:00:0011 and seven and just the best. Yeah. Well, the 15 year old, we'll get to the angsty part where

01:00:05maybe she'll feel that way. All right. Let's spend one more time and see what we get.

01:00:11Who is a musician you'd like to collaborate with who you have not yet?

01:00:15I mean, my daughter wants me to say Justin Bieber probably. Um, and like he's amazing,

01:00:21but, um, I would say I would love to make like a bluegrass record, like Molly Tuttle or

01:00:27Billy Strings or some of those people. Cause like I can sort of hang, but not entirely. And I think

01:00:32I would learn a lot. Um, or I don't know, Coldplay.

01:00:37Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I would love to hear Coldplay go back to kind of the acoustic roots

01:00:45that they once had. I would love to hear that. We're now going to do what we do at the

01:00:49end of

01:00:49every episode of on the record, which is called what would you cue? So pick one song for each of

01:00:54these situations I'm going to name out. Okay. So what would you cue to take you back to your

01:00:59childhood? The obvious child, Paul Simon, the live version from Central Park, which was 1991. So I was,

01:01:0814 or something, but something about that, like, just sounds like my childhood.

01:01:14Okay. What would you cue to represent your favorite era of music?

01:01:17Maybe John Hartford, Gentle on My Mind or Dolly Parton, Code of Many Colors. Like kind of like

01:01:24early to mid seventies American, just like breezy feeling. I still, which weirdly I make darker music

01:01:35than that, but like, I still, that's what I listen to a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you never know. It

01:01:40might

01:01:41come through. But I would also say Emma Hoy, Sagmari, I'm the, like everybody, like these days,

01:01:46I listen to her play the piano, this Ethiopian nun who like taught herself to play piano, listening to

01:01:53the radio. And it's just like the most transcendent music still. Great picks. What would you cue to

01:02:00remember the best concert you've ever been to? Karma Police, Radiohead. I saw them in Madison

01:02:07Square Garden on that tour and just like, Oh, in like 97? Yeah. 98? Yeah. I was at Columbia and

01:02:15I think

01:02:15it was 99. But, um, when they played, I saw them twice in Madison Square Garden, but it was just

01:02:24I had like, I was in the top row and just was mind bending. And then finally, what would you

01:02:30cue

01:02:30to get prepped for a session at Long Pond? I'd probably be driving home from like running on a trail

01:02:38and I would listen to like Adrian Lenker's solo music, or I would listen to, there's this amazing

01:02:46French artist, Pomme, who's makes like, like sort of traditional sounding chanson, but like in

01:02:54interesting ways, like French, she sings in French and she has this insanely beautiful voice. And there's

01:03:00something about it that's just reminds you that there's like real beauty to be found in music and

01:03:08to kind of push yourself and try to, um, but yeah, I think try to listen to something that I

01:03:16tend to

01:03:16gravitate. This is too long of an answer, but I tend to be like repetitive in my ways of making

01:03:23music.

01:03:23So I'll like sometimes listen to things which are more like just weirder or harmonically twisted,

01:03:30just to kind of like get out of my head. I love that. Well, Aaron Dessner,

01:03:34thank you so much for coming to On The Record. Thank you for having me.

01:03:37All right. Thank you so much to Aaron Dessner for joining me to talk about musical collaboration

01:03:40and his journey through the music business. And thank you for listening to this week's episode

01:03:45of On The Record. If you liked today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or on our TikTok page

01:03:50at Billboard On The Record, where you can find new clips of the show every single week.

01:03:53We'd also appreciate it if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform,

01:03:57because all these things help On The Record grow bigger and better than ever.

01:04:01I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week for another peek behind the curtain

01:04:05of the music business. I'll see you then. My glam for this episode of On The Record is sponsored

01:04:12by Booka, the new and easy way to book LA's most sought after beauty and wellness professionals,

01:04:18all vetted, curated, and bookable in one place. You can check them out at booka.com.

Aaron Dessner on Songwriting & Collaborating w/ Taylor Swift, Noah Kahan & Gracie Abrams | Billboard On The Record

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