00:07Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:15It is our pleasure to invite Dr. Commander Arnab Das, retired from the Indian Navy and
00:30the leader of a maritime organization.
00:35That India was ruled and super exploited for over two centuries by a tiny country with
00:43a lineage of very crafty rulers, but one with a very large navy, that's England.
00:53Then, following India's independence, its founding political leaders.
01:00Administrators failed to realize the country's size by way of its long land border and a
01:07very long coastline and the prevailing threats by some of our neighbor nations.
01:15And on matters of maritime, there was a near total sea blindness.
01:23Till the third India-Pakistan war, because in the first 1947 India-Pakistan war, the Indian
01:34Navy was not used at all.
01:35Now, in the second one, 1965 war, the Pakistan Navy was, you know, they fired at, I think,
01:46our eastern, our western coast, Dwarka and they probably, I think they killed one animal.
01:54But the Indian Navy was not used at all.
01:57But the Indian Navy was not used.
01:57The Indian Navy chief in the 1965 war visited the battle areas as a, you know, as a visitor.
02:05But in 1971, when the Indian Navy was used, it, you know, it had a very, very telling effect.
02:25Pakistan's western, the whole coastline of Karachi was gordoned by the Indian Navy and Karachi's
02:37naval assets were completely destroyed, burned.
02:42Anyway, there's, I think there's much that we have to tap Commander Das for.
02:51Please shoot, Commander Das.
02:55Sir, thank you very much for this opportunity and for this invite to talk on.
02:59And we are two days away from the World Maritime Day.
03:04And this time, the theme for the World Maritime Day is policy to practice powering maritime excellence.
03:15And this time, for the first time, it is not an annual theme.
03:19It is a theme for two years.
03:21So, International Maritime Organization has, in their wisdom,
03:25has taken a call that when we have to really look at excellence, there is also more time required.
03:33So, I think it makes sense that there is a theme which is, which has been visualized for two years.
03:40So, having said that, and you have very nicely brought out, India is a truly maritime nation.
03:47And somehow, I think we have had a continental mindset or more, I mean, more clearly, as you mentioned, a
03:56sea blindness.
03:57I mean, to give you some numbers, India's contribution of blue economy to the GDP is around 4%.
04:05Whereas a country like Norway, it is upwards of 70%.
04:10And Norway is a small country.
04:12And you mentioned about, I mean, about England, you know, they had a strong navy.
04:19So, I don't think there is any debate on the aspect of having a strong maritime force.
04:26I will not limit it to naval power.
04:29But to have a small, strong maritime capability and strong maritime force is very, very important.
04:36I mean, it's not, maritime power is not synonymous to naval power.
04:43It is much, much more.
04:44I mean, and when we look at the oceans, another aspect I would like to…
04:49And then, you know, if you go back into our history, we reached with the Cholas and the kind of
04:57maritime resources that we had, we reached Indonesia.
05:03Is, I think, at least till that extent.
05:08Absolutely, sir. There is a phrase used, Samutra Bharat, Samrit Bharat.
05:13So, I mean, whenever we were strong in the maritime front, I mean, you were talking, referring to around 13th
05:19century and around that period.
05:22We were a strong maritime power.
05:25We reached Far East and Far West also.
05:28On the other side also, we had, I mean, trade relations and we were dominating power.
05:33And that time we were a so-called superpower of that era.
05:38And that was definitely at the back of our maritime capabilities.
05:42So, another data point I would like to also mention is we are talking about 75% of the earth
05:49being covered by water.
05:5170% is marine and 5% is freshwater.
05:54And in that, I say 90% or more than 90% is below the surface.
05:59Whether it is resources, threats, opportunities, it is below the surface.
06:04And also now today, the biggest threat that we talk, I mean, when we talk about a UN visualized event,
06:13climate change is a serious problem that we are staring at.
06:16Now, if you look at climate change, whether it is climate change monitoring, climate change resilience, how can you ignore
06:25the underwater space?
06:26I mean, if 75% and in that 90% is below the surface, whether it is climate change monitoring
06:32or climate change resilience, you cannot ignore the underwater space.
06:36So, I would start from there.
06:39Now, how do we…
06:40Now, to manage anything, you need to first measure.
06:44And that's the crux of underwater domain awareness.
06:47And we often hear this term maritime domain awareness.
06:51But what I sometimes kind of debate is the conventional maritime domain awareness has largely remained on the surface.
07:02And I also want to add that the term maritime domain awareness came from the technical committee of the International
07:10Maritime Organization.
07:11But it didn't get enough traction.
07:14It was only after 9-11 that the US strategy community, you know, really took it up and gave enough
07:21importance.
07:22So, the entire capacity building and whole lot of other activities around it, it became a standard lexicon in the
07:28security discussion.
07:30And typically, the same thing happened in our part of the world after the 26-11.
07:35I mean, these were very important, you know, events which triggered a certain amount of, you know, action that was
07:42required.
07:44However, two things that happened because of this.
07:47One is that it remained a security-driven thing.
07:50So, it also remained limited to security.
07:53And there was a lot of apprehension by the security establishment to engage with the rest of the communities.
07:58I mean, and when we look at underwater or maritime, strategic security is definitely a very important and one of
08:04the major stakeholders.
08:06But there's a huge stakeholder called the blue economy also.
08:10I mean, the funding that will be required or the budgets that will be required will obviously have to come
08:15from the blue economy community.
08:17Third is equally important is the sustainability and the climate change people.
08:22I mean, the whole community of people who are kind of looking at this aspect.
08:27And the fourth most important is the science and technology component.
08:31I mean, unless science and technology component back this whole initiative, whether it is MDA or UDA, we are not
08:37going anywhere.
08:37So, now when we look at all the four stakeholders, if it is driven by one and we try to
08:44be exclusive, there will be issues like, can the security budget do the heavy lifting that is required for capacity
08:51building and underwater as you know.
08:54And I, there is a Wikipedia page also that we have created and I have argued, it's not that I
08:59have tried to counter MDA or UDA being, you know, the underwater variant of MDA.
09:08I have tried to give a slightly different definition to UDA because UDA requires acoustic technology.
09:15I mean, you need a sonar to see below the water. Now, there are certain very serious challenges that we
09:23face.
09:24I mean, now, if we just look at the underwater domain awareness or looking at below water, the typical technology
09:31or the sonar technology that happened, developed during the Cold War period.
09:35I mean, we have to credit the Cold War period for massive technology development on various sectors, whether you talk
09:42about aerospace, whether you talk about underwater military technology, a whole lot of things.
09:46And which later on came to the, I mean, I will not use the word civilian, but the larger human
09:54community, a lot of these technologies translated into a lot of non-military applications.
10:00Now, the point I am trying to make here is, one is, sir, you want to say something? Please go
10:05ahead.
10:06No, no, no, I just wanted to, you to throw light on that also. You see, we have, it was
10:15Mr. George Fernandez who publicly, very bluntly said, our number one enemy is China.
10:21He said it very, very bluntly. And as far as China is concerned, you know, the PLA Navy is very,
10:34very, I mean, China is compulsively very, you know, on land they keep salami slicing, you know, and on water
10:47they are snooping, snooping, snooping.
10:50We have just about 19 submarines. They have, I think about 60. And I think you will, you will agree
10:59that it's very, very important for us to, you know, to have our underwater domain, you know, fully, fully monitored,
11:14not just, you know, please.
11:18So, sir, you raised this very important point. I mean, you talked about Mr. George Fernandez. I mean, he said
11:25this in the last century.
11:26I mean, he was the minister, you know, before, I mean, in 99, 2000 is the time, almost the last
11:37century, he made the statement. At that time, a lot of people were probably questioning this statement.
11:44But, I mean, I want to give you a parallel to what the Honorable Minister at that time said. The
11:53US government also, I mean, after the Cold War ended, there was a, I would say, 10 years of our
11:59decade of honeymoon for the US strategic community.
12:02I mean, they thought that there is no challenge for them, you know, now left. I mean, after the Russians
12:09got disintegrated. I mean, USSR got disintegrated.
12:12But by the end of the last century, the Americans also realized that now their theater of strategic engagement is
12:18going to be the South China Sea and the East China Sea.
12:21And they realized that…
12:23When you said this, look at what is happening to them now in the Strait of Hormuz.
12:32Yes, yes. So, I am just coming to that, sir. So, what has happened is…
12:36Yes, please, please.
12:36So, what has happened is the Americans realized towards the end of the last century that they have to now
12:42operate in the tropical waters of the South China Sea.
12:45So, they started and they… And now let me talk about capacity building, which you kind of pointed out very
12:52clearly that India has to look at the underwater space.
12:55And, you know, we really… I mean, more than talking about confrontation, we have to first really prepare ourselves and
13:03our capacity building has to be of a very high level.
13:06So, what the Americans did was they started an exercise called the Asia X because the Americans realized that…
13:14I mean, what I wanted to tell you before about the tropical characteristics, the tropical waters…
13:19I mean, the 30 degree North and South, that region…
13:22And today, the entire global community knows that the engagement, strategic engagement, maritime engagement is going to be the Indo
13:29-Pacific.
13:30And if you look at the Indo-Pacific, by definition, the Indo-Pacific is the tropical waters of the Indian
13:34Ocean and the Pacific Ocean.
13:36Now, let me take a couple of minutes to tell you what is so special about the tropical waters.
13:41The first and foremost tropical waters, the sonar performance.
13:45The sonars that were developed in the Greenland-Island-UK gap, that sonar performance degrades by almost 60%.
13:53A sonar that gives you 32 nautical miles in the Russian waters, the same sonar when it comes to our
13:59waters, it gives you 5 to 6 nautical miles.
14:02Now, this is a serious limitation in terms of your underwater domain awareness.
14:08So, now, sonar is not used by navies alone.
14:12Sonar is also required for undersea surveys of critical minerals.
14:19You need to do sediment analysis.
14:23So, a lot of non-military applications also use sonar.
14:26Now, we are talking about deep sea mining.
14:29I mean, the electric vehicle initiative that is there, 6 times more critical minerals are available in the oceans.
14:36So, if you have to really be a front runner in this, you need to know, you need to do
14:42surveys and that is all about underwater domain awareness.
14:46So, multiple areas.
14:48Then, other aspect is biofouling.
14:50Now, the ships that operate in the temperate waters.
14:54Now, the American, Girardi Ford and a couple of many other American platforms in the Middle East, they could not
15:02survive for long because in the tropical waters,
15:05your biofouling enhances by almost 30 to 40 percent.
15:08Now, it can not only that it increases the, you know, the growth around the ship, but even the seawater
15:15pipes, which carry so much of seawater around the ship, they also got choked.
15:19So, the operational availability or the operational deployment of marine platforms, particularly the warships, became a serious limitation in the
15:28tropical waters.
15:28So, unless we understand, and the tropical waters are very unique, they are supposed to, I mean, the richest biodiversity
15:35is available in the tropical waters.
15:37But this also means that we should have far more return on investment on fisheries and aquaculture.
15:43But are we using enough technology to harness this resource that we have?
15:48So, there are sediment.
15:49Now, navigability is a very important thing.
15:51So, we talk about inland water transport or even coastal transportation is being given a lot of importance.
15:56But it is subject to navigability of those waters.
15:59Tropical waters, the challenges of navigability is very, very serious.
16:03So, unless we understand this.
16:05So, now, the point I am trying to make here is we need to recognize the tropical waters and the
16:11specific local requirements of these tropical waters, then only we will be able to manage them correctly.
16:17So, a lot of effort is required.
16:20Now, just a plain import of technology from the West is not going to help us.
16:24There is a lot of indigenous effort that is required to take this forward.
16:28Now, continuing with our example on the Asia X, which the American Navy, I mean, they used the academia, University
16:36of Washington led this initiative to completely model the tropical waters in the South China Sea.
16:42And what they did was that they collected a lot of data and China participated in it.
16:49They knew very well that Americans are there in their waters to collect data.
16:53But they knew that such a big exercise, I mean, we call it the shallow water measurement exercise.
16:59So, swamps, we call it, shallow water acoustic measurement.
17:03So, in that, the Chinese participated knowing fully well.
17:06This was in the beginning of the century.
17:07But the Chinese continued to develop their capability.
17:12They sent a lot of their officers from the Navy and the DRDO equivalent to the US, University of Washington
17:17to get higher learning and higher research capabilities.
17:21They came back in 2015, they announced what is called the underwater great wall project.
17:27This was a massive underwater capabilities in the South China Sea that they deployed.
17:32And this is a complete underwater lab that they have set up to build their capabilities.
17:36And what you said that they are lurking in our waters.
17:38Now, if you see the whole sequence, after 2015 and the first Trump 1.0 era, there was this massive…
17:49I mean, China, after they announced…
17:52I mean, earlier they were keeping quiet.
17:53But after 2015, when they announced the underwater great wall project, they became very belligerent.
17:58So, all the freedom of navigation confrontation that happened between the Chinese Navy and the American Navy is a fallout
18:04of this whole trend that we see.
18:07And after that, you see even the Chinese research ships are available in our waters.
18:12If the Indian Ocean also, you see a lot of…
18:14And what are these research ships doing?
18:16They are trying to enhance their underwater domain awareness.
18:18They are mapping the undersea domain.
18:21They are trying to…
18:22You know, the PLNA Navy has got a very large number of these survey… survey ships, you know.
18:31Absolutely.
18:32With a very civilian look to them.
18:36They don't look like… they don't look like naval vessels, but…
18:42They are using the loophole in the UNCLOS, the UN Convention on the Laws of the Sea.
18:50It says that research purpose is permitted in the international waters.
18:56So, they are using… I mean, these are… they call them as research ships.
18:59But what they are doing is mapping of the undersea.
19:02I mean, I'll give you a very unique example.
19:04When the MH370, that Malaysian airline aircraft that fell into the sea.
19:09And it had 90 plus percent… 95 percent passengers were Chinese passengers.
19:15And it was a Malaysian airline.
19:18And it was… it was said… I mean, how true it is is anybody's debate.
19:23And it is… it was said that it is in the Southern Indian Ocean.
19:27And a search was kind of commissioned by the global community.
19:31But the search was not given to China or Malaysia.
19:34It was given to Australia.
19:35Because the Western powers, they wanted an ally of theirs to kind of lead this.
19:40And I met the trial team leader in one of the conferences in China.
19:45And what he mentioned was that before they could deploy autonomous underwater vehicles
19:50or underwater drones for the search, it took them one year to develop… one year, sir.
19:55To develop the capabilities… I mean, the charts of the right resolution.
20:00So, what China is doing is building those charts, building those underwater domain awareness.
20:05So, now, when you deploy an AUV or an underwater drone, whether you deploy it for a civilian purpose or
20:11a military purpose, that is under your control.
20:14So, that capacity building, they are doing at a very, very feverish pace.
20:19And they are building up… I mean, I was in Bangkok last week and there was a US Department of
20:25Defense three-day training program.
20:27I spoke on underwater.
20:28There was a lady there, a professor from a European university and she talked about shipbuilding capabilities.
20:35And she said that what the Americans have lost during this war with Iran, it will take them or whatever…
20:44Yes, absolutely. No doubt. No doubt. They have lost a substantial number, a large number of vessels and aircraft.
20:53So, what she was mentioning is the shipbuilding capability has come down to such an extent that the Americans will
21:00take on a very good day, she said,
21:03110 years to kind of make up for the losses. On average, it may take 135 years. I mean, she
21:12talks about the entire procurement process and the bureaucracy in the American system and a whole lot of things.
21:17But the same thing, the Chinese will take five weeks. Just imagine the… I mean, what we are talking about,
21:25135 years versus five weeks.
21:28So, China today produces 12 warships in a year. They produce… Sorry, not 12. 12 summaries in a year. They
21:36produce 30 plus warships in a year. So, that is the shipbuilding capability that they have developed.
21:43So, if there is engagement and naval engagement, these kinds of capabilities become very important because you cannot be dependent
21:52on any outside power. Shipbuilding and these kinds of activities will have to be completely…
21:58I mean, your own indigenous capability with no dependence on outside. So, that is one part. Another important example I
22:07would like to talk about is the undersea cables.
22:10I mean, there are two dimensions to it. Undersea cables, you know, 95% or 97% of our connectivity
22:17is through undersea cables.
22:19Yes. Yes. Now, that is the criticality of this aspect. And now, today, connectivity is required for everything. I mean,
22:25all strategic requirement connectivity is very important.
22:29Now, the Chinese foreign office. Now, the Chinese foreign office a year back announced that they have developed cable cutting
22:35capabilities, not cable repair.
22:37I mean, not heard of. Now, when the Americans started talking, when NATO started discussing the repair facility, the cable
22:55repair facility is largely…
22:57Now, 90% is with the Chinese. Even the Americans have been outsourcing this to the Chinese. So, I mean,
23:05that is the fallout of a capitalist country. I mean, cost cutting and kind of maximizing profit.
23:11Now, if 90% cable repair facility is with the Chinese and they are announcing that we have cable cutting
23:17facility, how strategically independent are you or how do you ensure your strategic autonomy is a point we need to
23:25discuss.
23:26So, there are huge amount of dependencies. Now, China, I mean, rare earth, you anyway know how China is able
23:36to kind of have an upper hand on any strategic interaction with the US also.
23:42Because the rare earth minerals, which is required for everything, I mean, right from your EVs to semiconductors to everything,
23:51they control. So, globally. I mean, they almost control 90%.
23:55Yeah.
23:56Of these assets. So, that becomes a serious issue in terms of their capability.
24:04Thank you very much, Kumandas. Because you, you know, you come out with a very, very, you know, large number
24:14of very important points.
24:18Now, you know, ever since 1967, when we had the skirmishes in Sikkim against the Chinese PLA, they lost over
24:32400.
24:34In that, those, you know, firefighters were a great shock to them. And it's after that, then they pressed very
24:44hard for us, for both to not to fire at each other.
24:51Yes.
24:52And they've been taking great advantage. They've been taking great advantage of this. And all I can say is that
25:00we, you brought it, you brought it out, you know, very, you know, that is very important.
25:10We must, we, it's, this thing gave us, in Sindur, we, Sindur was a time when we realized that we
25:22made a great amount of progress. But that progress has to be maintained. It has to be built up much
25:28more, you know, to, for us to be able to keep China well checked.
25:36That's…
25:38That's…
25:39Well, there is, there is so much more, but I think going to…
25:44So, positive of… I mean, thank you very much, Vandas.
25:51Thank you so much, sir. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and express my understanding of the underwater
25:57domain and really appreciate this invite, sir. Thank you so much, sir.
26:00Thank you so much.
