- 2 hours ago
A debate on the Special Intensive Revision process examines opposing perspectives on voter roll revisions, deletions, and electoral integrity across multiple states. One side raises concerns over arbitrary voter deletions prior to elections, questioning procedural changes regarding voter forms and demanding transparency from electoral authorities while highlighting widespread public demonstrations. In contrast, the counter-perspective maintains that voter list revisions have historical precedent across decades and address duplicate, shifted, deceased, and absentee entries rather than causing disenfranchisement. The discussion centres on appellate mechanisms for voter restoration, consensus in official filings before the apex court, and differing views regarding whether electoral disputes reflect legitimate democratic concerns or political reactions following electoral losses. The exchange underscores the ongoing dispute over institutional credibility, electoral processes, and upcoming state polls.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00So let's raise the big question on our face-off tonight.
00:02Will the BJP's anarchy warning now counter the Congress' vote-chori charge?
00:07Is SIR getting enough traction on the ground?
00:11Is the India bloc fully united in this SIR fight?
00:14And who is winning the battle of narratives as of now?
00:17On our face-off today is Sanju Verma, BJP's national spokesperson,
00:22and Shama Mohammed, the Congress' spokesperson.
00:24Good to have both of you on the show today.
00:27I want to understand from you, Shama Mohammed, at the very outset,
00:32is the belief that the Congress is going to go, has decided,
00:35come what may, you're going to go on with these rallies and programs
00:40because the BJP is showing no signs of backing off when it comes to Gyanesh Kumar.
00:45So how long are you going to sustain this?
00:48Is this going to be the calling card now right up to 2029?
00:52Are there no other issues that you want to take up?
00:56Okay, Rajdeep, when you're introducing, you said the BJP's person is a national spokesperson.
01:00I also happen to be a national spokesperson, not just a spokesperson of the party.
01:04I'm officially a national spokesperson.
01:06So when you do introductions, do a fair introduction,
01:09not just give an introduction to the BJP person.
01:11Madam, I don't want to get, you know, that's a very, you know,
01:14you're a national spokesperson.
01:16That's not, you know, that's not the debate.
01:18Now come to the debate, madam.
01:19Then you introduce both as that.
01:20Madam, please come to the debate.
01:22Otherwise, I will, I want the debate.
01:24You can't be biased when you start the debate.
01:25Madam, this is not my issue.
01:27I'm going to be very clear with you, ma'am.
01:28I apologize if you feel that I did not use the word national.
01:31If you feel that, but for God's sake, focus on the issue.
01:36No, I need to focus on what you speak also.
01:38Now, it is, this issue, SIR, is very, very important with Mr. Gyanesh Kumar doing whatever he has done.
01:45Let's understand we have had SIR before in 2002.
01:49An SIR is never done one month before an election in a state like it was done in Bihar,
01:54two months before in West Bengal.
01:57Never has it happened.
01:58And then, as you've seen, after Rahul Gandhi has hit the street, many things have changed.
02:04The Election Commission, after that said, you know, it's put out its machinery and said those voters who are in
02:12the states where SIR has happened,
02:14which have been arbitrarily deleted, eligible arbitrarily deleted voters, to look into that.
02:20Then, in the 20 states odd and in which SIR has happened, they've also gone in for a summary revision
02:27to see to it that eligible voters are, you know, put back.
02:31Number three, you saw what the Supreme Court has said, that they did not have anything to do with this
02:38Form 6, the additions in the Form 6.
02:41And that the Supreme Court came out and said recently.
02:44I mean, this Form 6 issue has been happening for some time.
02:47I was in Kerala when the SIR happened.
02:49And they wanted to know in the Form 6, which is for new voters, is of 2002, whether your parents
02:55were there in the SIR.
02:56So, there has been a lot of things in which deletions have happened.
03:01And also, let's not forget, 16 lakh voters in West Bengal, where the judicial officers said, yes, they are eligible,
03:10the election commission puts a case against that, you know.
03:15So, it is the election commission or the head, Gyanesh Kumar, is like, how can I delete as many voters
03:21as possible?
03:24Whereas, why didn't we get voting rights in our country?
03:27It's to include as many people to vote.
03:31And that is my democratic right.
03:33That is your democratic right.
03:35And it is Sanju Verma's democratic right.
03:37But if you're going to take it away, we're going to fight till the last.
03:40And last but not the least, one very important point.
03:42Even YSRCP, which normally stands with India, has come out.
03:46He himself, they have come out and said, Jagan, that, you know, there are problems in Gyanesh Kumar.
03:53There are discrepancies in this SIR.
03:55This has to go.
03:57So, every opposition in this country, and as you've seen how the protests are,
04:02as my leader, fighting on the street, beaten by police, arrested innumerable times,
04:08and saying that, you know, this is wrong.
04:10And the people have come out.
04:12The youngsters have come out.
04:14Everybody is out there with Rahul Gandhi and all the opposition leaders.
04:17I heard you, I heard you, since you're being very specific on spokesperson national,
04:23let me also say Rahul Gandhi has not been arrested.
04:26He was detained.
04:27So, let's be very clear.
04:29Since, no, no, no, no.
04:30Since you have decided to go into semantics, ma'am,
04:32we should all be very clear about what we say and how we say it.
04:36Very easy, you know, to say arrested.
04:39He was detained.
04:40But I want to ask you, Sanju Verma,
04:43it appears the Congress is not backing down from the November 1 rally.
04:47They are determined to go, along with the India bloc, into a series of rallies.
04:51And Saba Mohamad is right that the EC has rolled back many of the contentious decisions that were taken.
04:57They are now even saying, even in the affidavit,
04:59that they will make sure that the BLOs go door to door to ensure that people who have been left
05:05out are,
05:07if they are eligible, they will be brought back.
05:09To that extent, clearly the Congress's campaign, they can say, has worked.
05:14The BJP, on the other hand, is calling it anarchic.
05:16How is it anarchic to demand that eligible voters be put back on the voter rolls?
05:22Where is the anarchy in that?
05:25Now, Rajdeep, you know, you posed a very pertinent question.
05:28So let me dive straight into the hard facts.
05:31Point number one.
05:32There is this entire brouhaha.
05:34Tera-covered voters have been deleted.
05:3613 crore voters deleted.
05:37So very quickly.
05:382.8 crore are dead voters.
05:403 crore are absentee voters.
05:436.3 crore are people who permanently shifted.
05:46And 1 crore are duplicate voters.
05:48So that is how we arrive at 13.1 crore voters.
05:51And if somebody does not get the chance now to vote,
05:54that does not mean he or she has been permanently disenfranchised.
05:59He or she can approach the appellate tribunals.
06:01Point number two.
06:03SIR was held in 1952, 57, 1961, 64, 1983, 87, 1992, 95, 2002, 2003.
06:12So for somebody to say that now SIR in 2025 or 2026 is illegal,
06:18but it was valid in 57, it was valid in 2004,
06:22I think that is a whole lot of balderdash.
06:24Point number three.
06:25No, no, can I just stop you also?
06:27I must stop you whenever you all make factual mistakes.
06:30No one has called SIR illegal.
06:32The design and execution of SIR in 2025-26 is being deemed illegal.
06:38Let's be very clear.
06:39SIR has been held in the past, you are right.
06:41But it does not mean that SIR per se is illegal.
06:45The way it's been designed and executed is illegal.
06:48So Rajdeep, since you are not getting into, you know, general rhetoric,
06:53but sticking to semantics,
06:55which are very, very specific.
06:56No, I'm sticking to specifics.
06:58I'm sticking to specifics.
06:59Be specific.
07:01Rajdeep, you know, you will then tell me after three minutes your time is over.
07:05I would very humbly request you,
07:06please allow me my time without interjecting.
07:09Because, you know, then you will still...
07:10Anyone makes factual errors, I will interrupt.
07:13Otherwise, I will let you a free run.
07:15I did not give any factual errors.
07:18I would like you to play out.
07:19There are at least a hundred utterances
07:21by Malik Arjun Khargai,
07:23by Rahul Gandhi,
07:24by Priyanka Vadra,
07:26by, you know, the entire Darbar ecosystem,
07:28including the likes of Abhishek Manu Singhvi,
07:30who comes regularly in exclusive one-on-one interviews on your show.
07:34They have delegitimized SIR
07:37in no uncertain terms.
07:39And I don't see any anchor telling them
07:41that, bhai, why are you delegitimizing the process?
07:44The process cannot be the punishment.
07:46And let me tell you one more thing.
07:47You want facts?
07:48You want facts?
07:49Let me tell you.
07:50The fact is, in 2018,
07:52Abhishek Manu Singhvi approached the court saying,
07:55there are 5-0,
07:5650 lakh duplicate voters in Telangana.
07:58When we said that Telangana is going to be a SIR,
08:01Abhishek Manu Singhvi said,
08:03the Modi government wants to loot elections.
08:06This is the same Abhishek Manu Singhvi,
08:08who again in 2018 said,
08:10there are 44 lakh duplicate voters in Andhra Pradesh.
08:14When we said that we will do SIR in Andhra Pradesh,
08:16this is the same Abhishek Manu Singhvi's face.
08:20Ramesh Chenithalla,
08:21one of the senior most Kerala Congress leaders
08:24and the Union Cabinet Minister there,
08:26along with VD Satishan,
08:28in 2021 approached the court saying,
08:31there are 4.34 lakh duplicate voters in Kerala.
08:34When we said that the SIR is very necessary in Kerala,
08:38the same Darmari ecosystem said,
08:40SIR is not something that we want to be done
08:43because this is a tool of the gochori.
08:45So the limited point is,
08:47there have been many people,
08:48from Abhishek Manu Singhvi to Ramesh Chenithalla
08:50to Rahul Gandhi,
08:52who have delegitimized SIR.
08:54The fact is, it's not working.
08:56That is Rahul Gandhi's misfortune.
08:58But my final point,
08:59what has been the biggest allegation against Gyanesh Kumar?
09:03I say allegation.
09:04It is that Gyanesh Kumar faced dissent
09:08and he took unilateral decisions.
09:10And today your audience needs to hear this.
09:12You are a very reputed anchor.
09:14Your audience should know that the affidavit
09:16filed by the Election Commission in the Supreme Court
09:19has not been filed by Gyanesh Kumar alone.
09:21It has been filed by Gyanesh Kumar
09:24along with his colleagues SS Sandhu
09:27and Dr. Vivek Joshi.
09:29It is a common affidavit.
09:31Which means...
09:31So if there is a common...
09:32You know, if there...
09:33That's a good...
09:34No, no.
09:35That's a good point you make.
09:36But the point is,
09:37why don't they then hold a joint press conference?
09:39If they can do a common affidavit,
09:40which they have no option to do.
09:42Please understand,
09:43they had no option but to file a common affidavit.
09:45Why don't they do a joint press conference then?
09:51So your audience needs to know
09:54there is a common affidavit
09:56by the Election Commission of India
09:58in the Supreme Court
10:00where it is clearly mentioned
10:02every decision on SIR
10:04was by way of a consensus.
10:07No decision was unilateral.
10:09Every decision was unanimous.
10:11And I'm so glad
10:12without naming Indian Express,
10:14the Election Commission
10:16has called out the bluff
10:18of Hrithika Chopra
10:20and Indian Express
10:21which did a hit job.
10:22Madam, they are not called...
10:24No, no, no.
10:24One minute.
10:25No, no, no.
10:26Madam, the fact is...
10:28No, no, no, no.
10:29Now, see.
10:30No, no.
10:31Now, please.
10:32Madam, you use words like
10:34hit job.
10:35Let's wait.
10:35Those are unfair.
10:37Hrithika Chopra of Indian Express
10:38with great detail
10:39has given the entire...
10:40No, no, no.
10:41I will not accept it.
10:43Has given the sequence
10:43of events,
10:44including on record...
10:45Please put a fader down.
10:47Including on record,
10:49Sandhu called
10:49the Form 6 decision
10:51illegal and unauthorized.
10:52So we want to wait
10:54to see what they have to say
10:55in the Supreme Court
10:55on that specific decision
10:57which was illegal
10:58and unauthorized.
10:59But Shama Mohammed,
11:00there is the point.
11:01You see,
11:02it's very clear
11:02from what Sanju Verma
11:03says,
11:04from what every leader says.
11:05I repeat,
11:06the BJP is standing
11:07by Yanesh Kumar.
11:08Now, you may claim
11:09that the Election Commission
11:10as a result of the campaign
11:11of the India Bloc
11:12has rolled back
11:13some of the decisions.
11:14But the fact of the matter,
11:16Shama Mohammed,
11:17is that there are those
11:18who are saying,
11:19is this SIR going to become
11:21an election winning issue?
11:23Will it actually influence voters?
11:26At the end of the day,
11:27you want an issue
11:28which is going to touch
11:29the hearts of the voters.
11:32Instead,
11:33traders are now saying,
11:34why are you having a rally
11:35in the middle of Diwali
11:36or just before Diwali?
11:38It will cause inconvenience.
11:39Does the Congress recognize
11:41there are other bigger issues?
11:42Price rise,
11:43sugar prices are up.
11:44Why don't you take up
11:45direct issues
11:46that are confronting
11:46the people at the moment?
11:48Okay.
11:49So Rajdeep,
11:50every time Rahul Gandhi
11:52takes up an issue,
11:53you say,
11:54oh,
11:55he has now moved on
11:56to another.
11:56So let's understand,
11:58Rahul Gandhi took up
11:58this issue two years ago.
12:00He's consistent with it.
12:01And this is,
12:02like I mentioned,
12:03a democratic right to vote.
12:05Now,
12:05you've got in the
12:06traders' issue.
12:07The traders' issue is that
12:09it is Diwali's on the 8th.
12:10This rally's on the 1st.
12:11And let's understand,
12:12there are people
12:14coming from all over,
12:15from Haryana,
12:16Madhya Pradesh,
12:18from Gujarat,
12:18from everywhere people
12:20will come to Ramlila.
12:21So if first this happens,
12:22they will have business
12:24on second,
12:24third,
12:25fourth of all these people
12:26in that area.
12:27So the business
12:28is just going up.
12:29And I don't know
12:29who's put pressure
12:30on these traders.
12:31I want to ask,
12:31a very important point
12:33I want to take up is,
12:34she said,
12:35there is an affidavit
12:36filed in the Supreme Court,
12:37filed by all.
12:39Now,
12:40you know how this
12:40government functions.
12:42We have seen
12:43businessmen,
12:44like what happened
12:45to the airport in Mumbai,
12:47has been sold
12:47to Adani,
12:50under pressure.
12:51How do we not know
12:52the other two
12:53election commissions
12:54are not under pressure
12:55by the central government?
12:57They have,
12:58let's also not forget
12:59a businessman
13:00who was put in jail
13:01in Tamil Nadu.
13:03His company
13:04was taken over
13:05by Adani.
13:05So there are definitely
13:07pressure put onto
13:09these elections.
13:09Like you said,
13:10they can come out
13:11and do a press conference,
13:12clearing all doubts
13:13instead of going
13:14to the Supreme Court.
13:17And then she spoke
13:18about the Appellate Tribunal.
13:20You know,
13:21let them all go
13:22to the Appellate Tribunal.
13:23Yes,
13:24in West Bengal,
13:24they went to it.
13:25And you know,
13:26at that point,
13:2727 lakh voters
13:29were deleted.
13:30But once they went
13:31to the tribunal,
13:32of the number of people
13:33who went around 16,
13:3599% have come back
13:37into the electoral roll.
13:38But what is the point
13:39that's out of a very small,
13:41no, no,
13:41many are,
13:42again,
13:43I will,
13:44madam,
13:44I will focus on facts.
13:4693% have come
13:47out of a very small number
13:49out of the total
13:5022 lakhs
13:51who have gone in appeal.
13:52Rajiv,
13:52can I finish my point?
13:54What I'm trying to say
13:55is that
13:55if an election is over
13:57and you're trying
13:57to get them
13:58back into the role,
13:59they have won.
14:00Bhatia Janta Party
14:01has won right now,
14:02as you've seen.
14:03And what you've seen,
14:04as you see,
14:05you have these polls
14:06coming out
14:07after Chattisgarh election,
14:09last,
14:09after the Haryana election.
14:11Everywhere,
14:11it was supposed to be
14:12the Congress winning.
14:13And then you suddenly hear
14:14the Bhatia Janta Party winning.
14:16And whenever it comes
14:17to a state
14:18which is ruled by Congress,
14:19there is anti-incumbency.
14:21But when it comes
14:21to states ruled by
14:23BJP,
14:24like Gujarat,
14:24Madhya Pradesh,
14:25Haryan Day,
14:26there is never
14:26an anti-incumbency issue.
14:27They keep winning.
14:28So, of course,
14:29there has been issues
14:30from then on to now.
14:31And this vote chori…
14:32That cannot be evidence
14:33of vote chori, ma'am.
14:35Just because you lose,
14:36it cannot be evidence
14:38of vote chori.
14:39I'm sorry.
14:39What I'm trying to tell you,
14:40Rajdeep, is vote chori
14:41has been happening
14:42from the Bihar elections
14:43onwards.
14:43And we have proved it.
14:45Rahul Gandhi has proved it
14:46in Karnataka.
14:47He has done press conferences.
14:48He's out on the street.
14:49And let them…
14:50We are concerned
14:51about price rise.
14:52Definitely,
14:52we are concerned
14:53about employment.
14:54But this,
14:54if I tomorrow
14:55have an election,
14:56we have four elections
14:57next year,
14:57isn't it?
14:58And if this happens,
14:59it's repeated in UP,
15:01and people cannot be…
15:02They don't see their names
15:04in the electoral roll
15:05and they can't vote.
15:06Then what do we do?
15:08And we have seen in Delhi
15:09also 20% of minority
15:10was deleted.
15:11I've heard you.
15:13Madam,
15:13madam,
15:14now I've heard you.
15:15Madam,
15:15madam,
15:16I've heard you.
15:17Shama Muhammad ji,
15:18I've heard you.
15:18Final word,
15:19therefore Sanju Verma.
15:20You see,
15:21Sanju Verma,
15:22the fact is,
15:23the fact Sanju Verma is
15:24that the BJP
15:26or the election commission
15:28in this case
15:29is being accused
15:30in some way
15:31of a lack of transparency.
15:32There are lots of these issues
15:34that have been raised
15:34by Rahul Gandhi
15:35in the India bloc.
15:36What does the election commission
15:37do?
15:38Roll back.
15:39Many believe a rollback
15:40is an admission of guilt
15:41that you got your decisions
15:42wrong in the first place.
15:44Now suddenly,
15:45you're telling the Supreme Court,
15:46no, no,
15:47that the addition
15:48or the mapping document,
15:50the annexure
15:51is a separate document.
15:52You're suddenly trying
15:53to cover your tracks.
15:55In such a situation,
15:56I repeat,
15:58don't you accept
15:58that instead of using
16:00the word anarchy,
16:01the Congress
16:02could well say
16:03we are protecting democracy.
16:05How high does
16:06protecting democracy
16:07become anarchy?
16:09Madam,
16:09the question is not
16:11to you,
16:11Shama Mohammed.
16:12Put a voice down.
16:13Go ahead.
16:15Go ahead,
16:15go ahead,
16:16Sanju Verma.
16:17We are having a same debate
16:19and thank you.
16:20You know,
16:20so that was a very direct question
16:21and I don't have the habit
16:23of shoving uncomfortable truths
16:24under the carpet.
16:25So first response,
16:26first point,
16:27Congress was in power
16:29in Madhya Pradesh
16:30for 43 years,
16:31in Odisha for 41 years,
16:33in Bihar for more than 30 years,
16:35in Tamil Nadu for 20 years,
16:37in Uttar Pradesh
16:38for more than 18 years,
16:39in Goa for 15 years.
16:41Never did the BJP
16:42after losing all those elections
16:45say ki work chori hui hai.
16:47Never did a BJP leader
16:48come on national television
16:50and do rona dhona.
16:52BJP does not play
16:53the victim card.
16:54BJP does not cry foul.
16:55BJP does not cry wolf.
16:57What does Rahul Gandhi do?
16:59After losing Bengal elections,
17:00they say,
17:01Bengal mein chori hui hai.
17:02After losing Haryana and Maharashtra,
17:04yaha toh chori hui hai.
17:05But after winning Kerala,
17:07Rahul Gandhi says,
17:08I thank the people of electorate.
17:09I thank the people of Kerala
17:11and the electorate there
17:12for reposing their confidence
17:14in the Congress party.
17:16Madam, you're changing the goalpost.
17:18I asked you a question.
17:20You give me a...
17:20You're changing the goalpost.
17:21You know how...
17:23No, no, no.
17:23Put Shama Mohammed's audio down.
17:25Please put it down.
17:26Question is not to you.
17:28I need to finish my point.
17:28I need to finish my point,
17:30Tajbi.
17:30Please, I heard of Oralendi
17:31three minutes.
17:33So the limited point is,
17:34jab Rahul Gandhi
17:35Karnataka,
17:36Telangara,
17:36Himachal jitte hai,
17:37Rahul Gandhi
17:38kaitai hai sab changa si vajiba.
17:41Jab Rahul Gandhi
17:42Maharashtra, Haryana,
17:44Bangal,
17:44harate hai.
17:45Tab kaitai hai,
17:46arre DJ Pita toh
17:47vote chori ki hai.
17:48You don't need to have an IQ.
17:50When I say you,
17:51I don't mean you.
17:52I mean the Darbari ecosystem.
17:53You don't need to have an IQ
17:55of more than 5050
17:57to realize
17:57Rahul Gandhi
17:59is a sore loser.
18:01Rahul Gandhi
18:01does not have
18:02what it takes
18:03to understand
18:04that if you lose,
18:05you need to go back
18:06to the drawing board.
18:07You need to do two things.
18:09Atma chintan,
18:10atma mantan.
18:11Rahul Gandhi
18:12ko atma chintan,
18:14atma mantan ka matlab
18:15and my final point,
18:17she spoke for a lending.
18:19I will just give two examples.
18:21No, no.
18:22I have a minute.
18:23No, no.
18:24Gyanesh Kumar ko lekar today,
18:25there is so much
18:26Halaabalu,
18:27you know,
18:27Rajdeep,
18:28sorry,
18:28Rajdeep.
18:29There is a man
18:30called TN Session.
18:32He was the cabinet secretary.
18:34He was the chief election commissioner.
18:37He was then,
18:37after Rajiv Gandhi's death,
18:39accommodated in the planning commission.
18:41He was also given
18:42a ticket to contest
18:43from Gandhi Nagai
18:44that he lost
18:44to Eriti Advani.
18:45What's your point?
18:47MS Gill,
18:48who was the chief election commissioner,
18:51was made a union sports minister
18:53by Sonia Gandhi's kitchen cabinet
18:56and by Manmohan Singh.
18:58That's all,
18:58Changashi.
18:59That was,
18:59you scratch my back,
19:01I will scratch yours.
19:02I've heard you.
19:04I've heard you.
19:05None of this answered my question
19:06about need for transparency.
19:08That's all I asked for you.
19:10You've gone into
19:11what about me?
19:12I'm done.
19:12I'm done.
19:15I would request you next time
19:17when a question is asked,
19:18please give a direct answer.
19:20As else,
19:20the anchor has no option
19:21but to interrupt you all.
19:23But I appreciate
19:23both of you joining us
19:25and giving us
19:25two different perspectives
19:27over this battle
19:28of narratives.
19:29Thank you very much.
19:30Thank you very much.