- 4 minutes ago
The Heart Podcast tells the intimate stories of real people. Last year, Refinery29's Jacki Huntington began documenting the making of The Heart’s new mini season called “No.” It’s an exploration of personal boundaries, consent, and sexual coercion as told through host and creative director Kaitlin Prest’s own experiences and touches on the virtually universal (but rarely talked about) experience of having sexual contact that you don’t really want to have.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Hey, um, is it okay if we just, like, make out?
00:05I don't think I really want to do, like, sex things.
00:09He takes my hand and puts it on his dick.
00:11I take my hand back and put it on his waist.
00:14He takes my hand again and puts it on his dick.
00:19This time I just leave it there, limp.
00:22I don't want any more negotiating.
00:24I just want this part of the night to be over.
00:30How do you tell the private, sometimes painful stories of your life?
00:35Do you tell them at all?
00:36Do you hide them in a diary?
00:38Or in an attempt for mass catharsis?
00:41Do you ruminate on your memories for years,
00:43then spend seven months making them into a podcast
00:46so you can share them with as many people as possible?
00:50If you're Caitlin Pressed, you record and share everything.
00:55Caitlin is the host and creative director of The Heart,
00:59a podcast distributed by Radiotopian PRX.
01:03What's The Heart about?
01:05Well, it's an intimate exploration of love, bodies, gender,
01:11crushes, masturbation, sexuality.
01:15Why, you ask?
01:16Because sexuality is this perfect magnifying glass
01:20for all different kinds of life issues and power dynamics.
01:24But look, so many representations of love and sex in the media
01:28are highly produced, highly mediated.
01:32Caitlin wanted to show people the real thing.
01:36She wanted to actually document what love and sex is.
01:42And to do this, she's always been willing to tell her own stories,
01:46even if it's awkward, even if it hurts.
01:50It's not some kooky hobby.
01:51It's her career.
01:55During a lonely few months in 2016,
01:58I listened to The Heart constantly.
02:00While I ate, while I showered, while I knitted,
02:04Caitlin's voice was like butter, delicately candling my ears.
02:08I came to know the names and voices of the women who worked on the podcast.
02:12Jen A, Ariel Han, Shani Aviram, Mitra Kaboli, Sharon Mashihi,
02:15Phoebe Wang, Samara Breaker.
02:16And I began to wonder,
02:18what did it look like to tell such intimate stories?
02:21I finally realized that I could just, you know, reach out and ask.
02:26That's how I found myself on Caitlin's stoop a few days after Thanksgiving.
02:30Hello.
02:31Hey, I'm looking for Caitlin.
02:33Oh, she might be here.
02:34Ready to tag along during the creation of a new mini-season of The Heart
02:37about something that a lot of us have experienced,
02:41but no one really talks about.
02:44Do you want me to look?
02:44Can I just, we're just normal.
02:46It's fine. Everything's fine.
02:47I can just be myself.
02:48Okay, okay.
02:48Caitlin has a recording of herself having sex
02:51that she doesn't really want to have
02:52with a guy we'll call Raoul.
02:55I have this audio, right?
02:56And it's a real moment that's unfolding.
02:59I interviewed a guy that, like,
03:01he was sort of a love interest of mine.
03:03There was, like, a lot of tension, flirty energy,
03:05and I just kind of left the recorder running.
03:08He says something like,
03:11why don't you, he says, why don't you lie down?
03:13Why don't you lie down?
03:18I don't know what I feel like.
03:20And then he's like,
03:22I don't know. I just want to curse you.
03:24And I'm like, mm-mm.
03:26Like a massage.
03:28Okay.
03:28Yeah.
03:29I'm down.
03:30Cool.
03:30I'm down for that.
03:33And he's like, okay,
03:34but I want to give you a frontal massage.
03:36And I was like, uh...
03:38And you hear me in the audio.
03:39I'm like...
03:40And you can't touch me in sexy places.
03:42No, I won't.
03:44Do you promise?
03:46Yeah.
03:48Okay.
03:49I'm trying to say that I don't want to have sex
03:51with this person.
03:52And then you hear that we do actually have sex.
03:54Like, he kisses me,
03:55and then I just kind of, like,
03:56submit,
03:56and it happens.
03:59No.
04:00No.
04:02No.
04:04So I'm trying to be kind
04:06in my boundary setting,
04:08and the kindness is coming off
04:10as seductive
04:11or as an invitation.
04:13This isn't the first or last time
04:15this has happened to Caitlyn.
04:17But of all the breaches of consent,
04:19all the instances of sexual coercion,
04:22there's one that hurts more than all the others.
04:25Because the person who did it was a friend.
04:28Caitlyn had known Jay for years.
04:31He was her oldest friend.
04:32They were close.
04:34They had snuggle parties.
04:35They signed off their Gchat convos
04:37with love spelled in full.
04:40But one night three years ago,
04:42Jay made a move,
04:43and it didn't end well.
04:45I have a huge ass.
04:48I usually judge people
04:50that I'm hooking up with
04:51based on how long they wait
04:53before going for the ass grab.
04:55Jay goes straight for it.
04:57I get a flush of adrenaline.
04:59I move his hands away
05:00from the sex zones.
05:01He puts them back in the sex zones.
05:03He's not tuned in to me.
05:05I start to wonder
05:06if I'm even here.
05:07He resumes doing
05:09the porn star tongue thing.
05:11I try to resume.
05:12I resume.
05:14He's rubbing his heart on me.
05:15Starts working with the lip of my tights.
05:17Working his hands down
05:18to my totally dry pussy.
05:20Had I said that
05:21I didn't want to do anything
05:22below the belt?
05:24I had.
05:25Hadn't I?
05:26He takes out his dick
05:27and starts jerking off.
05:29You have to do it, too.
05:31I don't want to do it, too.
05:33I unzip my pants
05:35and start doing it, too.
05:38I don't want any more negotiating.
05:40I just want this part
05:41of the night to be over.
05:43Caitlin slept over afterward.
05:45Jay was her friend.
05:46Everything was okay, right?
05:48But after a few days,
05:50she was so upset
05:50she couldn't even write about it
05:52in her diary.
05:53It's just a big scribble.
05:54She tried to talk
05:55to their mutual friends about it,
05:56but when she explained
05:57what had happened,
05:58it sounded like nothing.
06:00On the surface,
06:01we had what Jay would later call
06:03a drunken night
06:03of masturbation failure.
06:05No big deal.
06:06The problem is that
06:07we don't have a vocabulary
06:08around emotion
06:09that would let me describe
06:10with any sense of legitimacy
06:11the totally invisible things
06:13that happened between us
06:14that night.
06:15This is what the Hart team
06:17would spend the next six months
06:18unraveling,
06:20producing a serialized mini-season
06:22of their podcast
06:22about boundaries,
06:24consent,
06:24and sexual coercion
06:26called No.
06:27I'm creating the first draft
06:28of what will be something
06:30that will be,
06:31that will change
06:33probably like 30 more times.
06:36Caitlin poured over old diaries
06:38and investigated her girlhood.
06:40Dear diary.
06:40I wish Wesley had a question.
06:41Dear diary.
06:41When I grow up,
06:42I'm going to be a teacher.
06:43I love Wesley.
06:43I don't have boobs.
06:45And then she interviewed
06:45other people about
06:46their experiences
06:47being coerced or coercing.
06:49As soon as I knew
06:50that sex was a nudge,
06:51I was thinking what I wanted
06:52as opposed to what she wanted.
06:53Became a bit of a dick.
06:55She learned a lot,
06:56but after reviewing
06:57all the tape,
06:58she knew she was missing
06:59a crucial perspective.
07:01Jay's.
07:02He'd become a monster
07:04in her head,
07:05emblematic of all
07:06of the coercive
07:07and uncomfortable experiences
07:08Caitlin had gone through.
07:10But she needed
07:11to confront him.
07:12My dream is that
07:13this person would like
07:15consent to collaborating
07:16with me on it.
07:18What?
07:19What I would really,
07:20really like is like
07:21to be like,
07:22hey, like,
07:23do you want to write
07:24the other side of this
07:26with me?
07:27Caitlin wanted to hear
07:28Jay's side of the story.
07:30She wanted to know
07:31what was going through
07:31his head during that night.
07:33And yes,
07:34she even wanted
07:35to invite him
07:36to collaborate
07:37on this story with her.
07:38Yeah.
07:39Really?
07:42I'm scanning to,
07:43I'm really scanning
07:44over this.
07:45I don't want him
07:45to be like freaked out,
07:46you know,
07:47but,
07:47oh, I did it.
07:49I kind of,
07:50that was kind of an accident.
07:52And he might just say no,
07:53like he might just,
07:54or ignore me.
07:56That's fine.
07:57Great.
07:58I want to smoke
07:59a cigarette now.
08:03So you need to know
08:04that one year
08:05after that night,
08:07Jay and Caitlin did talk.
08:08Caitlin tried to tell him
08:09how she felt
08:10and it's been radio silence
08:12ever since then.
08:16Jay got back to her
08:17a couple hours later.
08:19He said he was down
08:20to talk about that night.
08:21They Skyped.
08:22He definitely knows
08:23that I was upset,
08:24but I don't think
08:26he knows exactly why.
08:28And in this interview,
08:29I have to tell him why.
08:32To rehashing everything,
08:34it's just so much work.
08:35Can't we just move?
08:37I know what you mean.
08:37Can't we just move on?
08:38Like really?
08:39Is it really that big a deal?
08:41Because it can't be
08:42in your daily life.
08:43Like can this really
08:44follow you around?
08:45There's like the honest answer
08:47to that question
08:47and then there's the answer
08:50to that question,
08:50which is like me really wanting
08:52to not make you feel bad.
08:54In all of our friendship,
08:56knowing what you know about me,
08:58don't I get a pass?
09:00I just like stupid,
09:02I just like wasn't drunk
09:04in school.
09:05Like where do I get
09:06to draw the line?
09:07And be like,
09:07well, you know what?
09:08That's not me.
09:10Even though he gave Caitlin
09:11permission to use
09:12his interview and her podcast
09:14to tell the story
09:15of what happened
09:15between them that night,
09:17he didn't want to write
09:18a side of the story.
09:19He didn't want to collaborate.
09:20I mean, would you?
09:24Caitlin and her team
09:26needed a plan B.
09:28So she decided to reenact
09:30the experience
09:31as she remembers it.
09:33She hired an actor
09:34to play Jay.
09:35Yes, really.
09:37This is Tommy.
09:39This is where I live.
09:41It's nice.
09:42Um, I work in radio.
09:44She's an illustrator.
09:46This is the way
09:47we're going to do the thing.
09:49Nice.
09:49How's it going?
09:50Good.
09:51This is Mitra.
09:52And this is Mitra Kaboli,
09:53the senior producer
09:54of The Heart.
09:55She'll be recording them
09:57on shotgun mics
09:57as they act out
09:58every single moment
10:00of that evening
10:00three years ago.
10:01The first time we do it,
10:02it'll be like,
10:03Tommy, like we were
10:05sitting on the bed
10:05like this.
10:07Not quite like that,
10:08but actually,
10:08if you could just
10:09that way, you know?
10:10And Mitra will sort of
10:11be like,
10:13we need to move the mic
10:14or whatever.
10:18Hi, Tommy.
10:19Hey.
10:20What's up?
10:21Uh, not much.
10:23You are going to be
10:24pretending to be
10:25my friend Jay.
10:27Right.
10:27Okay.
10:28Like our weirdest,
10:30most uncomfortable
10:31time as friends.
10:32So this is your bedroom.
10:34Um, it's late.
10:35It's like 11.30.
10:37The premise of me
10:38coming over
10:38was a text message
10:39that you sent me.
10:40One, two, three, go.
10:42Hey, Jay, what's up?
10:44Hey.
10:44How are you doing?
10:46Good?
10:46Yeah?
10:47Yeah, how are you?
10:48I don't know.
10:53Ready?
10:54Yeah.
10:54And mostly I think
10:55I'm nervous
10:55because we're going to kiss.
10:56Are you nervous about that?
10:59Uh, no.
11:00I mean, not really.
11:01I should be,
11:01I feel like I should be
11:02holding it down.
11:03I'm nervous.
11:03Do you know what I mean?
11:04Yeah.
11:04Are we like running
11:05through the whole scene?
11:07Like, I don't understand.
11:08Kind of, yeah.
11:09I might stop you
11:09and be like,
11:10more like this.
11:11Yeah.
11:12And you could do the same.
11:13So we're talking
11:15about whatever.
11:17Okay.
11:18And then you kiss me.
11:19Sweet.
11:20Cool.
11:21Oh, really?
11:22You're gonna?
11:25Okay.
11:30I don't know
11:31that there's like
11:32a formula
11:33when like telling
11:34really intimate stories
11:36that are based on
11:37true intimate stories.
11:38When you like make art
11:40about other people,
11:41like where is the line?
11:43It's weird
11:44because it's like
11:44we're bringing someone in
11:46to like reenact
11:48like a moment
11:49that is really uncomfortable
11:51for this person
11:53and renders them
11:54in a bad light.
11:55Really.
11:57Okay.
11:57We just make out.
11:59Yeah.
12:00Okay.
12:01What are you doing?
12:04I know you might not
12:06think it's necessary
12:06to go to these lengths
12:07to make a podcast,
12:08but that is why
12:10the heart is so good.
12:13As Caitlin began
12:14editing her story,
12:15she started to worry
12:16how it would be received,
12:17that somehow
12:18she would come out
12:19on the wrong side
12:20of the consent issue.
12:22Feminists have been
12:23working hard
12:24to name coercion
12:25as assault.
12:26She didn't consider
12:27the experiences
12:28she had had as rape,
12:30but were they assaults?
12:32She wanted to leave
12:33that question open
12:34to the listener,
12:35but she was afraid
12:36that leaving it up
12:37for debate
12:37was dangerous.
12:39The type of wrong
12:40that I was most afraid
12:41of being
12:41was like wrong
12:43for feminism,
12:44wrong for women
12:45who have been violated,
12:47wrong for women
12:47who have had shitty nights
12:48like these nights
12:49and not giving them
12:50the space
12:51to claim
12:52that those nights sucked
12:54and that they were
12:55not right.
12:56I'm simultaneously afraid
12:58of being too hard
13:00on the men
13:00that I represent
13:01in this piece
13:01and too easy
13:04on the men
13:05that I represent
13:05in this piece.
13:07Was she betraying
13:08Raul and Jay
13:09by denying the agency
13:10she had had
13:11in those situations?
13:13Could the story
13:14hold both of those truths?
13:16She didn't want to push
13:17the conversation backward.
13:19I think there's like
13:20a lot of weight
13:20of responsibility.
13:22This is Phoebe Wang,
13:23the associate producer
13:24on the show.
13:25And especially
13:26for Caitlin
13:27because it's her story
13:29but it's also talking
13:30about really sensitive
13:31subject matter.
13:32This is the Hart office.
13:33They share space
13:34with Radio Diaries,
13:35also on Radiotopia.
13:37The plan is
13:40figure out the plan.
13:41Okay.
13:42A few years ago
13:43when we were first
13:43having this conversation
13:45I was very adamant
13:46about the fact
13:47that I didn't want
13:48to complicate consent.
13:50I feel like
13:51in many ways
13:52it is very, very simple.
13:53In the old days
13:54it was no means no.
13:56But when you're talking
13:57about two humans
13:58in a room together
13:59nothing is simple.
14:00And in the past decade
14:02consent's been reframed
14:03affirmatively
14:04as yes means yes.
14:06An enthusiastic
14:08yes,
14:09I want this.
14:11with that said
14:13like
14:13you don't necessarily
14:14have to say that
14:15with your mouth.
14:17I mean
14:21it's already
14:22getting complicated.
14:23I know.
14:25Yes and no.
14:26These words
14:27communicate boundaries
14:28but what do they
14:29sound like?
14:30And what happens
14:31when you say no
14:32and the person
14:33you're with
14:33isn't listening
14:34no matter how
14:35you say it?
14:36This is the first time
14:37of many times
14:38that I'll say no
14:39and it'll be
14:40ignored.
14:42I'm 18.
14:43We're making out.
14:45I tell him
14:46I don't want him
14:46to finger me.
14:47I just want to
14:47keep kissing.
14:48I'm 19.
14:49I'm 20.
14:50He goes and gets
14:50a condom anyway
14:51unwraps it
14:52and starts putting it on.
14:54If I froze
14:54maybe I would disappear.
14:56After weeks
14:57of editing
14:57the team had a rough cut
14:59for the whole
14:59mini season.
15:00It would be
15:01three episodes.
15:02The first
15:03would explore
15:04Caitlin's adolescence.
15:05The second
15:06is mostly about
15:07what happened with Jay.
15:08and in the third
15:09she hears
15:10the other side
15:11of the story.
15:12The team
15:13gathered a close-knit
15:14group of friends
15:14to listen to the rough cuts
15:16and give feedback.
15:17The type of feedback
15:17that I'm looking for
15:18is like
15:21sort of surface level stuff
15:22where you're like
15:23I am very confused
15:24at this moment
15:25and I don't know
15:25what's happening.
15:26Or the things
15:27that sort of stand out
15:28to you is really
15:29like strong.
15:30All the sound design
15:31is very sort of
15:32preliminary.
15:37By virtue of the
15:38subject matter
15:39they probably
15:40could have used
15:41a few more dudes
15:41at the gathering.
15:43It made me wonder
15:44who Caitlin was hoping
15:44to reach
15:45and who she would reach.
15:46this is probably
15:58exactly the way
16:00that I sounded
16:00when I was with Jay.
16:02Saying no
16:03in this sweet
16:04seductive tone.
16:05I'm trying so hard
16:06to be nice
16:07and not hurt
16:07anybody's feelings
16:08that my no
16:10basically sounds
16:10like fuck me.
16:11Do I need to
16:12acknowledge
16:13during the Raul scene
16:14that you hate me
16:15a little bit right now
16:16or not?
16:17You can say
16:18that you're mad at me.
16:19I think you should
16:20be wary about
16:21trying to direct
16:22who they're mad at
16:23in that section.
16:24Of course.
16:25Yeah, totally.
16:25By being like
16:26yeah, I hate me too
16:27you're like
16:28you're encouraging
16:29that to be the track
16:30that everyone goes on.
16:32Yeah.
16:33You want them
16:33to organically come
16:34to whatever
16:35frustrated conclusions
16:36they're going to
16:37out of that scene.
16:39Something's gonna come
16:39out of it
16:40no matter what.
16:41So I have to like
16:42turn to other people
16:43and they're maybe
16:43to like deal with
16:44Yeah.
16:45In early May
16:46I took a train
16:47to Philadelphia
16:48to check in on Caitlin
16:49as she and Shani Aviram
16:51worked on sound design
16:52for episodes one and two.
16:54Jackie, would you like
16:55some seltzer?
16:56Oh, I would love
16:57a seltzer.
16:58Yeah, thank you.
16:59Lemony.
17:00Between me
17:01and Tyler Thomas
17:03sat
17:04Sandra
17:04Well, it was supposed
17:05to just be sound design
17:06but Caitlin was still
17:08trying to edit.
17:09And
17:10Jason Skidmore
17:11I need to get over there.
17:12Why is Sandra
17:12sitting beside Tyler?
17:13She knows that
17:14I fucking like Tyler.
17:15I should be sitting
17:15beside Tyler.
17:16How am I going to do this?
17:17I was sweating a bit
17:18underneath a blanket.
17:19Is my antiperspirant working?
17:21Hmm.
17:23Episode one was released
17:24on May 10th
17:25and episode two
17:27followed soon after.
17:28Listener feedback
17:29started rolling in
17:30from all kinds
17:31of different people.
17:32Hi Caitlin.
17:32I have a son.
17:33I have two little girls.
17:34Can we do this?
17:34I would say no
17:35but I would mean yes.
17:37But they still
17:38had one more episode
17:39to finish
17:39and the episode three
17:41rough cut was
17:42rough.
17:43This is Sharon Mashihi
17:44Caitlin's best friend
17:46and the editorial
17:47advisor of The Heart.
17:48People, I'm sorry
17:49that this happened
17:50that like we got drunk
17:51together
17:51and that I tried
17:52to do hand stuff
17:53and you didn't want to.
17:54How bad do I have to feel?
17:57Haven't I done my time?
17:59This conversation
18:00with Jay
18:01is a wonderful
18:03parallel
18:04to the Raul scene.
18:06She means that tape
18:07you heard at the beginning.
18:08Where you have something
18:09you're trying to communicate
18:10to this person
18:11and they can either
18:12hear you
18:13or not hear you
18:14and that's terrifying.
18:16You're reentering
18:17a trauma.
18:17We need to feel
18:18that night
18:19with you
18:20but that's like
18:21in your head.
18:22I need to be worried
18:23about you
18:24as you're talking to him.
18:26Sharon and Caitlin
18:27talked through ways
18:28to cut down episodes
18:28three
18:29but ultimately
18:30they decided
18:31to just split it
18:31into two different episodes.
18:33After getting
18:34so much listener feedback
18:35they wanted to give
18:36as much space
18:37as they could
18:37to that discussion.
18:39Episode three
18:39was released
18:40on June 6th.
18:42Just one more to go.
18:43That's good.
18:43How are you?
18:44Good.
18:48This is Tarek.
18:49This is Mitra.
18:50Hey.
18:51Sounds like
18:52you have a really
18:52peaceful working environment.
18:55We're basically
18:56used to it by now.
18:57Jackie called this morning
18:58being like
18:59so uh
18:59episode release?
19:00I'm like
19:01yeah we're gonna be
19:01working on it
19:02in the open night.
19:03You're wondering
19:04what it looks like
19:05to meet an aggressive
19:05podcast deadline.
19:07Jackie.
19:08Jackie it's 11.30pm.
19:10This is it.
19:11Jackie.
19:14Three years of work.
19:15I'm making it seem
19:16like I hated
19:17working on this
19:18but it's mostly
19:19just now.
19:23Do you want to say
19:24I wanted to comment
19:26on the last episode
19:27and request
19:30that we
19:31not an expert
19:32for any of his fodder.
19:34Sorry.
19:34This is bad
19:35because I am you all
19:36so much.
19:38Um I wanted to comment
19:39on the last episode.
19:41Produced by me
19:42Caitlin Prest.
19:44Well done.
19:45Yay we did it.
19:46Okay five.
19:48Four.
19:50Three.
19:53I'm not ready.
19:54What?
19:55Five.
19:56No.
19:56Oh fuck.
19:57Four, three, two, one.
19:59It's happening.
20:02It's up.
20:03It's Swedish.
20:05I don't feel it man.
20:07It's gonna take
20:08so long for me
20:09to feel it.
20:10Also she's drunk.
20:11I don't think.
20:11Anyway.
20:13Yeah.
20:15Ding-a-me.
20:18Ding-a-me.
20:20Ding-a-me.
20:24After years of thinking
20:26and months of editing
20:27it was done.
20:29Finally.
20:30Oh.
20:32Hi.
20:32Hi.
20:33Hey.
20:34How's it going?
20:34It's good.
20:35Hi.
20:35Good to see you.
20:36Hi.
20:39Somebody once said to me
20:40it doesn't do anyone
20:41any good
20:42to raise the bar
20:43for what warrants
20:44speaking out
20:45and I believe that.
20:47There is such a thing
20:48as being like
20:49physically
20:50violently
20:51awfully
20:53coerced
20:54raped
20:54that happens
20:56and I feel
20:57at the end of this
20:58that
20:59we don't have
21:00a vocabulary
21:00around assault
21:01that can allow us
21:03to discuss these things
21:04with the gradations
21:05that are necessary.
21:08at the end of all of this
21:10like I do feel
21:10more empowered
21:11I guess I was sort of
21:12hoping for more of a like
21:14feeling of release
21:15because it was extremely
21:16emotionally draining
21:17but they ended up
21:18with a lot more questions
21:20and answers
21:21more unease
21:22than comfort
21:23I have to say
21:24that having completed
21:26this project
21:26I do not feel better
21:28about anything
21:29in fact
21:30I feel
21:30so much worse
21:32it's just like
21:32it's brought a lot of
21:33stuff up to the surface
21:34and I'm still
21:37kind of like
21:38emotionally
21:38parsing through it
21:40this project
21:42has shown me
21:43that behind every hurt
21:45isn't necessarily
21:46a vulnerability
21:47that behind some hurts
21:49are just negligence
21:51you know
21:52and abuses of power
21:54you know
21:55and like lack of caring
21:56and like that sucks
21:58to learn
21:59that was a really hard thing
22:01to learn through this
22:03and it was very
22:04disillusioning
22:05and sad
22:06but it also
22:07helps me to realize
22:08that because of that
22:10that is why
22:12we need to stand up
22:13for ourselves
22:13and that is why
22:14we need to
22:16gracefully as possible
22:18tell people
22:19when they are
22:19out of line
22:20you know
22:21and like
22:21accept that they have
22:22a full complex humanity
22:24behind them
22:24and that like
22:25maybe that was
22:26just an off moment
22:27like give space
22:28for that possibility
22:29but also don't
22:30let them off the hook
22:32so which one
22:32would you like?
22:33okay yeah
22:34hell yeah
22:35best
22:36thank you
22:37I have some pieces
22:38of paper
22:39that say
22:40all of the episodes
22:41on them
22:41and I would like
22:43for each person
22:43to have
22:44the episode
22:46that was either
22:47their favorite
22:47or the bane
22:48of their existence
22:50episode one and two
22:52and we will burn them
22:56narrative is such
22:57a reductive form
22:58like when you tell
22:59a story
22:59you are reducing people
23:01to plot points
23:02and I'm uncomfortable
23:04with that
23:05like there's been
23:06so much response
23:07about like people
23:07being just so mad
23:09at Jay
23:09and so mad
23:10at Raul
23:11I really believe
23:12I really believe
23:13that they are
23:13complicated people
23:15hooray
23:16yay
23:16even now
23:17I'm saying all these
23:17things and I'm sort
23:18of like
23:19you know
23:20um
23:23I feel like
23:25the women
23:25who heard this
23:26would be angry
23:28to hear me
23:28trying to
23:30make people
23:32hate them less
23:34who wants
23:36Prosecco
23:41rather than producing
23:43the perfect
23:44rendering
23:45of your feminist
23:47shiro
23:47like behaving
23:49in the exact ways
23:50that your
23:51ideal person
23:52would
23:53yay
23:56what we made
23:57was
23:58an honest
23:59as possible
24:00representation
24:01of a flawed
24:02person
24:02trying to do
24:04life
24:04with the tools
24:05that she has
24:18thanks for
24:19watching
24:19if you enjoyed
24:20this video
24:21or if it
24:22upsets you
24:23or intrigued you
24:25I would
24:26highly encourage
24:28you
24:28to
24:29listen
24:30to
24:31all
24:32of the heart
24:33no
24:34mini season
24:35it's below
24:36at this URL
24:38there's so much
24:39detail and nuance
24:41that we couldn't even
24:42fit into this
24:43long ass video
24:44I'm Jackie
24:45Huntington
24:46you can
24:47at me
24:47if you
24:48want