- 3 days ago
Jenna Lyons spent 26 years and practically her whole career at J. Crew, and sheâs often credited as the visionary genius who transformed the brand from basics emporium to fashion phenom. And, in doing just that, Jenna became an icon, too. After leaving the company just last year, and simultaneously recovering from the ending of a long-term romantic relationship, Jenna is making her way back, working on her next big chapter. She may be starting over, but itâs never been more exciting to see where this sartorial superstar is going to take us next.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. Jenna Lyons is in limbo, or more likely, onto something. In 2017, she departed
00:36her post as president and creative director of J.Crew, the job that catapulted her to super style
00:42stardom at the company where she'd spent her entire working life. From her first job as an
00:48assistant menswear designer, Jenna inched her way up for decades before taking the lead,
00:53a role that would change her life, or maybe more so, our lives. There, she revived and revolutionized
01:00the iconic brand originally birthed in 1947, and emerged an icon herself. Jenna and her label became
01:08a visually synonymous power duo. She was, as New York Magazine put it, the J in J.Crew. But she
01:14wasn't
01:15always. Growing up in Southern California, Jenna was acutely shy and regularly bullied. She suffered
01:22from a rare genetic disorder, which caused skin scarring, hair loss, and malformed teeth. She's openly
01:28worn denture since childhood. Jenna wanted nothing more than to blend into the background, but that
01:34wasn't going to be an option. She made her first item of clothing in a seventh grade home med class,
01:40a floor-length yellow skirt printed in watermelons. When she wore it to school, everyone asked where
01:45she got it. That was the catalyst. She was used to people looking at her appearance, but now they saw
01:52her. Thirty years later, ironically, Jenna has been the subject of constant imitation. By the time she
02:00was appointed president in 2010, Jenna had become a bona fide celebrity with a legion of fans who copied
02:07not only her clothes, but her signature thick-framed glasses and hairstyle, side part, and pulled back
02:13tight as a drum. Her old Brooklyn brownstone remains an interior design landmark. The Lions hasn't lived
02:19there for years. She and her ex-husband sold it in their 2011 divorce. The breakup was heavily
02:26covered in the press, as was her next relationship with jewelry executive Courtney Cranji. The spotlight
02:32isn't always comfortable, but Jenna is a big believer in living outside the comfort zone. Stepping
02:38into the uncomfortable zone, she says, is the secret to her success. And that's where she is today,
02:44on the cusp of a new chapter. The question is, though, what's it going to be? More fashion?
02:49Her own line? Or something else entirely? Thus far, she hasn't said. Because for the time being,
02:57Jenna is just happy being Jenna.
03:07Hi, Jenna Lyons.
03:08Hi, Christine.
03:09Thank you so much for being a guest on Unstyled today.
03:12Thank you for having me.
03:13I want you to tell me a little bit. I know that you've probably told this story a million times,
03:17but because I think you're in the midst of such a huge transformation right now,
03:21I would love to just talk about what that felt like at the beginning of that transformation,
03:26when you started to really identify what the sort of thing was that you wanted to create at J.Crew.
03:33I think that one of the things that most people don't realize is that I had been there for an
03:37incredibly long time. So my entire tenure lasted 27 years. So I had seen the company go from a mom
03:44and
03:44pop really small company and really understood what the genesis of the brand was. And I'd seen
03:49it move through many different iterations, whether it be new CEOs that had different directions that
03:53they wanted to take. And then when Mickey joined, he really wanted to take it back to the roots of
03:59what it was. However, the roots were at that point, almost 15, 16 years old. And so there needed to
04:05be
04:05some connection to what it had been, but it needed to move forward. And, you know, it was probably one
04:11of
04:11the most terrifying times of my life. And mostly because I had a tremendous amount of responsibility.
04:18And yet, the last thing I wanted to do was show my fear. I was scared every day. And mostly
04:24because
04:24I felt like people were relying on me. And I didn't always have the answer. And I think I learned
04:28really early on that it wasn't about having the right answer. It was about actually like having a
04:34singular point of view and just moving forward. And I think a lot of times, especially in fashion,
04:38where, you know, it could be many different things. This top could look great with that top.
04:43This color could be great in that. There's so many choices. At some point, you have to just go with
04:48your gut and move forward. And getting everyone around you to feel excited and comfortable with
04:54that only works if you have the energy and the excitement around those choices. And so I found
04:58myself sometimes thinking to myself, God, was that the right choice? That's going to be so incredibly
05:03ugly. And I made mistakes. And I had to learn how to make mistakes. And learning how to make mistakes
05:09is probably one of the biggest insurmountable things I felt at the time. And once I got through
05:14that and realized that it was okay, and Nikki was actually supportive of making mistakes and trying
05:20new things, that was a huge leap. And it got me to the other side. But it was literally, I
05:27was scared
05:27every day.
05:28I think that feeling of knowing that you need to take risks, and you have to kind of go out
05:32on a
05:32limb, especially for yourself, when you feel like you kind of have to make the call. Like you're
05:37looking around, it's like, anyone going to tell me to make the call? Oh, they're waiting for me to
05:40make the call. I got to make the call. And I think that there's nothing more thrilling than being on
05:46that precipice and just being able to kind of say, I really did that. You know, I really trusted
05:52myself, even though I knew it might blow up in my face, or, you know, be an enormous fuck up.
05:58And I
05:58think that's something I read in one of your interviews, too, is that you felt a lot of
06:02pressure, because so many of your decisions were attached to so much money. And I think that that
06:06is, that's another thing I wanted to really talk to you about, I think the biggest struggle that I've
06:11that I've kind of confronted, or at least dealt with over the years is balancing this role of being
06:17an executive, but also being a creative person, which is what I am, which is what, you know, the
06:22reason why I wanted to start a company in the first place, and having to really sort of set an
06:26example for the people around you. And I think that that's something that you really became known
06:31for, aside from this trademark look that you created at J.Crew, but the people that worked with
06:38you and worked for you talked about you with such reverence. I mean, how did you...
06:45You know, I remember very, very early on, something happened to me, and it made me really
06:51understand the deep level of partnership that was required from all parts of the business to
06:57make it work. And there's this guy, Nick Lamberti, and he managed all the money. And this was way back
07:02in the early days of J.Crew. And we had a new season that was coming in, and I needed
07:07to get sample
07:07fabric ordered. And I was speaking to the fabric person, and she said to me, well, Laura Smiani won't
07:12take our order because we haven't paid our bill from last season yet, and they won't take an order
07:17for a sample yardage. And so I was like, what do I need to do? And she's like, you have
07:21to get someone
07:22from finance to pay the bill, or we're not going to get the fabric. And I wanted that fabric. It
07:25was
07:25beautiful. It was the most exquisite cotton I'd ever seen, and I wanted it. And I found out who worked
07:31in accounts payable and who I needed to talk to, and it was Nick Lamberti. And I marched myself over
07:34to Nick's office, and I said, hey, I need help. He literally opened a drawer. He pulled out a stack
07:41of
07:41checks, and I had to, you know, he's like, here's all the accounts that are, here's everything that's
07:46payable. Tell me what I cannot pay right now. And I told him who were the bigger companies on the
07:50list
07:50that I was like, okay, I know that we don't need to pay that one now. He made me tell
07:54my story. He made me
07:55explain myself. He made me verify and sort of give him like the facts and so that he could do
08:00his job
08:00better. But then he actually helped me out. And having that experience really young made me realize
08:04like I needed the people in accounts payable. I needed the people who worked in finance. I needed the people
08:11who worked in the merchandising and buying department. I needed everyone. It wasn't about
08:15me doing something on my own. I mean, of course, the design team goes without saying that is a huge,
08:21massive relationship and so, so delicate and tender. And I have so much respect for all the
08:26creative people I worked with. At the same time, I really revered and respected and needed the people
08:33who were my like sidekicks and partners and peers. And, you know, some of them were more senior than I
08:39am. Some of them were my subordinates, but I needed them all. And, you know, it doesn't,
08:43you can't do it on your own. And that was really helpful. I think having that experience so young
08:46because it really fed into how I tried to work. I was going to ask you, like, what does it
08:52feel
08:53like to have time? I mean, I think I've never had time. I mean, I literally left college and went
09:00straight into working. I've really never had time. Right before, right as I was leaving the company,
09:04as I was getting ready to leave, I listened to this podcast that was probably one of the most
09:09influential things I've heard. And it really, it was the best thing I could have done right before
09:13leaving. It was a social experiment around, around creativity. And they took two groups of people,
09:1810 people, they sequestered them for two weeks. And each group got the same bricks, the same art
09:24supplies, tools, and everything you could possibly imagine to manipulate and change and work with the
09:29bricks. And one group was given no access to internet, no access to books, no access to
09:35library, no access to inspirational materials, nothing. They were sequestered like you would a
09:39jury. They had no access to television, phones, nothing. The only thing they were given as inspiration
09:43was a phone book. Like biosphere kind of thing. Basically. Yeah. They had a phone book and that was
09:48it. The other group was given every possible access to, you know, incredible imagery, libraries,
09:54beautiful art books, all kinds of things. And they had the internet, the worldwide web of everything
09:57you could possibly imagine. And after a few weeks, they brought out to see what they had done with
10:02the bricks. And the group that was bored had come up with some of the most magical ideas. They had
10:08ground the bricks down and made tiny little pottery out of them. They had done incredible little step
10:13works and reconfigured buildings and made these incredible art pieces that looked like, you know,
10:19nothing you'd ever seen before. And they were excited. They were proud. They had worked together.
10:25And the other group had made things that they'd already seen before. They made things that you
10:29would have already found in the world. They made replicas of things. And while they were beautiful,
10:33they had also siloed themselves. They had gone off into small groups. Some of them had worked alone.
10:38And it was just a really interesting thing. And so, you know, I remember this pressure when I was
10:43leaving the company to be like, well, I should learn to cook. I should learn ceramics. I should do all
10:46that. Maybe I should take tango lessons.
10:48Ceramics?
10:49I don't fucking know. Everyone's taking ceramics these days.
10:51I mean, you know, I don't know. And I'm going to make pinch pots.
10:55I mean, listen, if I could be Mary Fry, I would make a pinch pot. But no, I, you know,
11:00listen, I realized that maybe I could be bored. And I've never felt so refreshed and nourished and
11:07so clear in my head about what I want, what I don't want. I have literally spent a lot of
11:13time
11:13sitting on my couch. And it's been incredible. And I don't feel guilty about it.
11:17You shouldn't feel guilty about it. I think that's wonderful. I look forward to a time when
11:21I have time. And I can actually sort of just feel like I can just listen to my own thoughts.
11:27When I first left, I had some conversations about what my next step would be. And I realized
11:32that I was entertaining things that would have put me right back in a situation that I had come out
11:35of.
11:35And I've had the time to think about it. And I realized that's not what I had an amazing
11:40experience at J. Crewe and worked with some of the most incredible talented people.
11:44I don't want to replicate or try to replicate what I had. I won't be able to. And so I
11:48have
11:48to do something really different.
11:49I don't think you need to.
11:50I don't think so either. It took me a while to get there to be able to really be okay
11:54with not
11:54doing some version of what I was doing before.
11:57So one of the things I wanted to ask you about too is, did you interview with Emily
12:00Sinator Woods? She was kind of the face of the brand.
12:03She, I mean, yeah. I mean, well, she, I don't know for those people who don't know who she is.
12:08She was the woman who started J. Crewe. Her father gave her basically a company to revamp.
12:14And she completely changed it and made it in her vision. And she had a real sort of classic
12:20East Coast, Nantucket vibe to her, but also mixed with a little California. And she personified the
12:26brand because it was all what she wanted it to be in her closet. And she was the woman who
12:30hired me
12:30years ago.
12:31But when I read in our research that you had interviewed with her, I was really stunned because
12:37when I was in high school, she was like one of the only female executives that I really identified
12:42with. But she was also young and she had like a lot of responsibility really early on. She was,
12:48she was really beautiful and in kind of an unconventional way. I just remember thinking
12:52even at that time, like I wanted to work at J. Crewe just because it's, it just because it felt
12:56like
12:56like a new day was dawning in just like the fashion industry. Cause I worked at the Gap,
13:02like all through high school and sometimes through college. And J. Crewe was kind of like
13:06the ultimate that. And remember Banana Republic, how cool Banana Republic was.
13:10Of course. And that was Mickey Drexler.
13:11Yes, I know. When it was sort of very safari driven, it was kind of amazing because she was
13:16completely different from any other kind of executive I've ever seen.
13:19It was like nothing I could have ever expected. You have to understand the company was so small at
13:22that point. So it was literally like a family scenario. I mean, her father
13:26had the office next to hers. She was incredibly quiet, very, very quiet. He was also very quiet.
13:32And there was just this sort of calm, serene mood in the office. And yet at the same time,
13:37we were all a bunch of gaggly girls in the back. And, you know, interestingly enough,
13:42some of the people who I worked with at the very beginning are still there. She really put together
13:46this incredible group of talent and we formed an intense bond and a long forming relationship.
13:52You know, there was the old days of J. Crewe and then there's the new days and
13:55I love them all. She was incredibly hands on. She would come out and literally
14:00be on the floor for hours, laying out the, you know, what the catalog pages were going to look
14:04like and sitting with the team and, you know, picking which models were going to be, which
14:08models. She also really pioneered a different kind of photography, this sort of very natural,
14:15like what a snapshot might look like and worked with, you know, would do things like if Arthur
14:20Algort just give him the clothes and let him go and photograph his family as opposed to make it look
14:24like a
14:24photo shoot and a catalog. And I think that was really revolutionary. No one was really doing that.
14:28Catalogs didn't look like you could actually live in them. And I think that was a huge change and
14:33really helped pave the way to this sort of idea of lifestyle in a way that really was a lifestyle.
14:38And that's, that was unique.
14:40You sound like you're describing yourself.
14:43Sounds familiar to me.
14:45It's interesting that you were talking about Emily Wood's kind of perspective about catalogs,
14:49because I think that that was something that you really defined in a lot of ways at a time when
14:54I
14:54think we needed it. And I think that your use of real women over traditional models, it was so
14:59instrumental in the industry of having campaigns using real people. Because at the time we were using
15:04a lot of real women in our photo shoots. They were attached to stories. So obviously it was important
15:10to be illustrating, you know, different trends that we were talking about. I think it was just really
15:14important for women to see other women that were not just beautiful and interesting or interesting
15:19looking, but they had really cool jobs. I mean, you actually would write, you know, little bios of,
15:23you know, what they did. And it just really made you, it moved you in a way that you actually
15:28did
15:28really want to buy clothes because you felt like you could really identify with them. You could see
15:32yourself in those clothes.
15:34I mean, that's great to hear. And I think that started a little bit of where that came from was
15:38through the partnerships. I think probably about, I don't know, five or six years ago,
15:44we started doing something. I remember we were walking the floor and walking the floor is
15:48basically where we view all the styling before the catalog goes out. And I remember looking at
15:52the men's shoe selection and saying, like, God, why is it that all the boys in the office are
15:56wearing red wing boots, but we only have desert boots and tennis shoes to pick from? Why can't we
16:01have something else? Because we were, you know, it was a fall shoot and it just sort of fell flat
16:06and
16:06it needed something. And we were shooting in Big Sur and it was like, oh gosh, I wish we had
16:11some
16:11really great boots. And, and so, you know, the team was like, well, you know, we don't want to
16:16develop a version of red wing boots because that's just weird and it's not who we are and it doesn't
16:20make sense for us, but our customers are buying them. And so we went to Mickey and said, how would
16:26you feel? And, you know, he had come from that world of wholesale and people, you know, because
16:29he'd done that along the way and he was sort of, had been apprehensive and he, and he being the
16:34person he is was like, why not? Like he just sort of threw caution to the wind and he said,
16:38that's what you want to leave. Let's, let's try it. And so through doing that, we started to feel
16:42like we had to tell the story of who red wing was. They're an American company, where they came from,
16:45their heritage. And so through telling those stories, we then started to interview the people
16:49who were a part of them. And, and then what started to happen was we, as we would go and
16:55work with some
16:56of these smaller brands, there were these amazing people who were also customers and, you know, they
17:01were all versions of shapes and sizes and age. And we found them interesting and beautiful and really
17:08and passionate. And so we started to shoot them. And then that got an incredible response. People
17:13really liked, you know, hearing more and seeing who those people were. And that led to, you know,
17:19us really trying to do as much as we could to show real people. And, you know, there were so
17:23many
17:24incredible, interesting, unique people in our office. And that was also something that we started
17:29to, you know, it got challenging because everything, you know, when you do it within the office,
17:33someone's feelings inevitably get hurt. But I think that that was also then, you know, trying to turn
17:38our, our, our sites outside and use people that weren't just customers and people who we admired,
17:45whether, and that didn't necessarily mean that they had to be a head to toe day cruise to customer.
17:49And I think that was one of the things that was important to us as well as like, we never
17:52really
17:52expected anyone to wear the clothes head to toe. I didn't, I loved mixing clothes, but I think that
17:57you can be a customer and still, you know, wear a red wing boots or a barber jacket and wear
18:03them
18:03with your J.Crew chinos. And that's cool. And that actually is how people dress. And so
18:07allowing for that really felt honest. And, and I remember Mickey using a word once that I really
18:12liked, which was generous. It's like, we should be generous. Like we should be grateful and generous
18:16for the customers that we have and show them that respect and love and like give back a little bit.
18:21And so that was sort of how that all started.
18:23That's beautiful. I also really enjoyed like even, I mean, I never, who looks through catalogs anymore?
18:28Anyway, it's so funny, but I would like really get excited when the J.Crew catalog and I wouldn't,
18:33didn't even really like wear a ton of J.Crew clothes just because I shop mostly on eBay and
18:38get everything vintage or whatever. We're from, you know, designer friends, but, but I did buy some
18:42things because I knew how thoughtful the sort of making of them was. And I would love when you did
18:50this great piece. Do you remember when you use that fabric from that British pajama company or
18:55something Drake's? And I bought like four pieces from that collection. Yes. With this beautiful
19:00unicorns on it. I know you hate that word unicorn too. I just don't like being called.
19:04Yeah. You're a unicorn. No. Anyway, but this beautiful purple pajama top with, I think it
19:11had unicorns on it or some kind of mythical creature. Yeah. And I just loved reading about
19:16this little blurb about this, about this incredible fabric company, this textile company.
19:21Makes me happy. I mean, I think it's hard to, it's hard to like touch people these days. There's
19:26so much information. The fact that you, someone who obviously is, you know, and you know, there's
19:30a lot of information coming at you every day. I know what that's like. It's hard to get someone
19:33to stop and pay attention. So I'm, I'm not naive about, you know, how a big business of fashion
19:38works, but because I love it so much, you know, as an art form and, and what it does for
19:44me as a
19:45person. I don't know. I just think that you were somebody that really tapped into a way that
19:49made it available to, to everybody. That's nice. Not just people that were in fashion.
19:54Thank you. I mean, I appreciate that. You're welcome. It's interesting. Cause I'm, I, one
19:57of the things I am doing that I shouldn't probably talk about too much, but is working on.
20:02Just talk about it elusively. It's okay. That'll be really good. I'm working on something where
20:06the materials are such that as, as they do in fashion, some, the best materials and the
20:12best things often are things that get better with age. And so, you know, especially with
20:16clothes, I mean, I think if you think of like a beautiful leather belt or a leather jacket or
20:20the perfect pair of jeans or a white shirt with the collar and cuff that are sort of soft and
20:25beginning to fright, like those things I find so incredibly beautiful and far more elegant than
20:31having everything be pristine and new. And so I think giving your clothes some sort of respect and,
20:36and wanting them to stay with you. And, you know, and it's interesting cause, you know, I have now
20:41not been working in an office and so I have, I can dress differently. I don't wear, and I finally
20:46Do you really feel you dress differently?
20:47Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, I will literally wear the same thing for a week in a row.
20:54I just interviewed Linda Rodan and she said that she does that too. And I find it very refreshing.
20:59I do it and I go to an office. I just have no shame about it.
21:02Well, I enjoyed dressing up, you know, I loved it. And also, you know, listen, when you're staying
21:07at home and there's no one to see you, it's, you have a different level of motivation. I liked
21:10dressing up and I liked seeing the people in the office when what they wore. And I, it was a,
21:15it was fun. It wasn't that I did it out of feeling, you know, like I had to, it was
21:19fun for me and I
21:20enjoyed it. And I loved seeing what the stylists were wearing and I loved seeing what the people
21:22in the creative team were wearing. You know, that was, it was part of the game. It was so exciting.
21:26It was like the peacocks walking down the hall all the time. I loved it. But I don't have that
21:30anymore
21:31and that's okay. It's just, it's really changed the way I dress and I'm wearing, I'm wearing the clothes I
21:36owned before, but I'm wearing them and seeing them differently. And I find that the things that
21:40I'm gravitating towards are some of the things I've had for the longest amount of time. They're
21:44the most comfortable. They often, they have a worn look. They're not at all, like there's no sort of
21:49pretense to them. They're just like the perfect pair of jeans, my favorite white shirts, my monogram
21:54and that kind of stuff.
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22:24confident, strong, and always the real you in your own style.
22:42Were you afraid? Did you, for any moment when you were preparing for the Met Ball, did you think to
22:47yourself, is it a bad idea to wear a denim jacket to the Met Ball? You know, interestingly enough,
22:52that was the second year. And so the first year I had had this funny thing happen where I
22:57was so nervous and so anxiety ridden about going. And so like, I was so twisted and not that I
23:03did not
23:04prepare. I literally like buried my head in the sand and did not do anything. And I would say
23:08seven days before the Met Ball, I panicked and I started to walk around the office and say like,
23:13okay, there's got to be something around here. Cause we had all kinds of beautiful collection
23:17things and things from wedding line that I was like, well, there's got to be something here that
23:20I can work with. And there was hanging in the hallway, this dress that was, came from Shemiza,
23:26one of the most incredible beaters they do all the beating for Chanel and Valentine. I mean,
23:29just their workmanship is insane. And it was a wedding gown sample and it was too expensive for
23:35us to make into a wedding gown. So we weren't going to produce it. So it was a one-off
23:38sample,
23:38but it was a strapless dress. I was like, I'm not going to wear a strapless dress ever and certainly
23:43not to the Met Ball. So I threw it on and I was like, well, what if I made it
23:47into a skirt? And so
23:48I literally was in my office pinning it on myself to make it into a skirt. And I called the
23:53girl who
23:54sort of helps with Daphne. She came in, she's holding it on me. And on my rack to the left,
23:58I kid you not, was a men's champagne colored cashmere sweater that was there for,
24:04I always had stuff in my office for whatever reason, maybe we could have been looking at
24:08cashmere colors. I have no idea why it was there. A men's V-neck. And I threw it on over
24:11because I
24:11was naked on the top. And I looked in the mirror and I was like, I kind of like this.
24:16This is kind of working.
24:17And it's kind of what I would do anyway. And so we tailored the sweater just a little bit
24:20because it was a little bit big in the arm. And when I walked up the steps, Stella McCartney was
24:25there
24:26and she said, look at you wearing a jumper to the Met Ball. I love it. And I thought,
24:32okay, like that's great. And she was standing next to Anna and Anna, you know, smiled and said hello
24:36and greeted me warmly. And I was like, okay, this is okay. And so it kind of, I don't know,
24:42there was something about Stella McCartney saying that to me that gave me license to feel okay about
24:46the jean jacket the next year.
24:47Oh my God. I mean, there has to be a certain sort of pride in knowing that whenever there's
24:52like a hall of famer, you know, sort of slideshow that you're always in it because I mean, who
24:58really likes to get dressed up for black tie stuff? The fun of it is being able to wear
25:01something that doesn't feel traditionally black tie. Now that you've told that story,
25:05which I don't know if you've ever told, but I feel really lucky that you told it on
25:08Unstyled. Thank you. It just means more because I feel like the fact that you buried your head
25:14in the sand before the Met ball just sounds terrified. So what has this transformation
25:19been like for you? Like, because you had like two really big things kind of end at the same time.
25:25Um, this 20 sort of, you know, plus year career, which, you know, really made you famous. And then
25:32we don't have to talk too personally, but you know, a long and very significant relationship that you
25:36had that ended, which I was really sad to hear about. I was super bummed because I love her.
25:41Same. But I think those two things happening at the same time were so kind of, I mean, it was
25:47remarkable. And I just think that I'd love for you to just talk about whatever you're comfortable
25:53talking about in terms of what that felt like with those two enormous, like, you know, life
25:59defining things like kind of falling away at the same time. I won't lie. It was incredibly depressing
26:05and challenging. And I, true to form, I buried my head in the sand a little bit and I kind
26:12of cut
26:12myself off from a lot of things and people. Um, and I needed to, I needed to not feel like
26:18I had
26:18to explain what I was feeling because it was just, it was devastating. And I think one of the things
26:22that
26:23I was grappling with and, and probably to a certain extent still am is, you know, after being someplace for
26:2927 years and my own personal style being sort of so mixed in with the brand and being out in
26:36the world
26:36and people saying, Oh, are you Jenna Crew? And I'm like, well, no, I'm Jenna Lyons. That company was
26:41Jake Crew. It wasn't my name. And at the same time, so there's that piece, which were my identity was
26:47sort of
26:47wrapped up in this brand and trying to figure out, well, then who am I now? And, and then like
26:52the real,
26:53the real hard part was really losing my home family and my work family at the same time.
26:59And obviously I still have my son, but like that sort of, that security at home, like at least
27:04having the balance of one, when, you know, and having them both shift so deeply at the same time
27:08was really, it was dramatic and it still is. Um, you know, I miss the people from J. Crew every
27:14day.
27:15You know, I, I worked there even when it was hard sometimes cause I loved them. You know,
27:21I love Mickey and revere him deeply. And, and even though sometimes he drove me crazy, I I've never
27:27had so much fun, you know, I do have to tell you, I had lunch with him probably three months
27:31ago and
27:32two significant things. I think he almost cried when we talked about you. I mean, literally almost
27:37cried. And when we were out on the street saying goodbye, he called me boobie. And honestly, I almost
27:43cried when he said that he is such a, an extraordinary, such an intense driven person, but you know,
27:50he's also, I mean, I, I can't, you know, having not had a father in my life for, I mean,
27:54my father
27:54left when I was quite young and I remember really distinctly sitting across from him. Um, and this
27:59was when we had a great year and he was, you know, giving me a bonus check that year. And
28:04I remember
28:05him looking at me and pushing the check across the table and he said, this is for you and your
28:07family.
28:08And it was just, and I, like, I knew that that's what he, like he worked hard and wanted to
28:14have the
28:14company to do well so that he could provide and share like wealth and happiness for everyone
28:21that worked with him. And it was really like, Oh, don't make me cry.
28:24That's so beautiful.
28:25It is.
28:26I mean, how often do you get a boss like that?
28:27No, it was amazing.
28:28I mean, seriously.
28:29And so it, and the thing is it made, it made not just me, it made everyone who worked with
28:33him want to do good, incredible work and to work with such an incredible group of people
28:39that I had so much respect for and so much love for. And I still text and talk and, you
28:44know, even my assistant who was with me for 13 years and who I adore and still talk to
28:49all the time. And, um, it was hard. I also, I also had to learn. I mean, I couldn't set
28:54a goddamn attachment. I literally, Oh, I had, because the thing is I had gotten to the point
29:01where I had assistants right when computers were still really, but getting put into place.
29:05And so I never was really doing a lot of that stuff for myself. I had people who were doing
29:10that for me and I know that's no excuse, but it's sort of where I was. So all of a
29:14sudden
29:14I was faced with it.
29:15It's easy, right?
29:16No, like it's like paralyzing. I mean, attachment's not so bad because now I can just click on the
29:21thing and push the little icon on the bottom left.
29:23You can do it.
29:25Making travel plans is literally like sticking needles in my eyes. Um, you know, it's hard.
29:29It was, I lost like all of the support was really gone and it was, I mean, it was crippling.
29:35It was absolutely crippling. And what do you think you learned about yourself though?
29:40You know, I, I think that only now am I starting to feel like I was worried that there wasn't
29:46anything without everything else. You know, I was worried that what I had was, you know,
29:51there was, was smaller and smaller and smaller. And as I sort of let my world kind of like
29:55everything sort of started to fall away. I like, God, what am I going to be left with? Like
29:59who's going to even want to talk to me? Am I even interesting as, can I do anything,
30:03have anything to offer? Like it all just sort of like, it was literally like, you know,
30:08I felt like I was powering down sort of. And like that sound on the computer, you know,
30:14and I think it took a long time. Like I am so grateful for the time I've had because I
30:19don't
30:19think I could have gone back to work any sooner than even like now. It's just been, it was hard,
30:26you know, and I've seen Mickey and he's, you know, he wants to get back into the work.
30:30But he's so, but I think he's had so many incredible experiences in his life and he's
30:34so energetic and he, I think, you know, he knows how good he is and he's had such incredible
30:40success. I think he doesn't doubt himself the way I do. And I think it's, and that was one
30:44of the things that DVNF and I talked about quite a bit was just like self-doubt and it's pervasive.
30:50It's super, super hard to get around. And I have it all the time. I mean, I have it today.
30:55I have it. I'm going to have it tomorrow. Um, I don't know. I mean, what have I learned?
31:01Well, what do you do to, to sort of like help, you know, sort of counter the self-doubt? Because
31:07I think we all have that, especially when, especially when you've achieved any, any sort
31:11of, you know, amount of success, regardless of, you know, how much success. But I think it
31:18does make you question. I think that that's where the whole sort of imposter syndrome kind
31:22of comes from your, you feel like, you know, do I even know what I'm doing? Am I even good
31:26at this? Am I awful? And just people aren't telling me. And I think that we all sort of
31:31have those feelings of just questioning our own value.
31:35I mean, listen, I don't think there's a secret sauce to combating that. I do think that, you
31:41know, I have been really fortunate to be in a place where I have good friends who have
31:47been with me through all of it. And I have a child who, as now, like, I sort of decided
31:54like I, I have some real work to do in terms of finding like a deep connection with him
31:59and really showing him how much I love him and, and being there for him in a way that
32:02I wasn't able to before. And that's been, I mean, you know, literally we were away, just
32:07the two of us this past weekend. And just randomly over the weekend, he must have said three
32:12or four times, you know, mom, I love you. And I was like, what made you say that, honey?
32:16I'm so thank you. I love you too. And he's like, he's like, I just, I just like being
32:21with you. And I was like, okay, good. That's like, and it's so powerful. It's so moving.
32:26Cause it's like that at the end of the day, like, can I just be alone with one other person
32:31and still have them feel good and be happy? And that is like what you're reduced to.
32:36And there's something like a kind of amazing about that. And it was really like, so, I
32:42mean, literally like when he wasn't looking, I like my eyes welled up with tears. I turned
32:46around and I was like, like, thank God. I mean, if you didn't have this time, you wouldn't,
32:51I don't think that you would be able to sort of like not appreciate that moment or even
32:56just him saying that to you, but you wouldn't even be able to really hear it.
33:00I don't know if I would have had the moment. I don't know if I would have put my phone
33:04down long enough. I don't know if I would have sat in the pool with him for two hours
33:09watching, you know, restaurant disasters with, you know, and talking about Minecraft and Fortnite
33:16and all of his, you know, games. I probably wouldn't have had the appetite or the bandwidth
33:20to do that. And I do now. And it's amazing. And it makes me clear about what I need to
33:25do
33:25going forward, which is healthy. I think I actually really get excited when I have people come
33:30in that want to talk about, or at least are going through something that's just,
33:34that is really life changing in a lot of ways, some, you know, good or bad, because I think
33:38it really, the way that we come out on the other side of it is just like so inspirational
33:42to the rest of us, because we know that that's coming for all of us. There's just like, you
33:46know, we can't really escape, you know, big changes if we're really living and we're really
33:50sort of present.
33:51I also think everyone on their Instagram posts that their life is perfect. And it's just not.
33:56When I was preparing for, you know, to talk to you, and I remember, you know, this time
34:00when I was in my late 20s and early 30s, and I was going through a really, really, really
34:04tough time. I mean, a lot of people are going through a big transformational time at that
34:07point in their lives. And I read Pima Chodron's book, When Things Fall Apart. And it really
34:13restored my faith that it was supposed to happen. And it was preparing me for being a grownup.
34:19And I wanted to read these two quotes to you. But it says,
34:23we think that the point is to pass the test or overcome the problem. But the truth is
34:28that things don't really get solved. They come together and they fall apart. Then they
34:32come together again, and then they fall apart again. It's just like that. The healing comes
34:37from letting there be room for all of this to happen. Room for grief, for relief, for misery,
34:43and for joy.
34:44I mean, that's, yeah, it's beautiful. I think she's incredible. I mean, I remember one of my
34:49friends who has been, you know, here through me with all of this said to me, like, you know,
34:55I've spent a lot of time running away from the pain or ignoring it. Or even when things
34:59were hard, I would just push it away because I had to, or I thought I had to. And, you
35:04know,
35:04she was like, why don't you just sit with the sadness, like just sit with it and actually
35:09experience it. And I didn't actually understand what she meant. And it took me a while to sort
35:14of understand, like, the only way to pass through it and the only way to overcome it and get to
35:19the
35:19other side is to actually, like, experience it and not be so afraid. Like, I can't even remember
35:24when I was working at J.Crew. I never cried. It took a lot to get me to cry. I
35:30mean, and I went
35:30through some really, really challenging times. And since I've left, I've maybe cried like eight
35:35million times, you know, and just allowing myself.
35:38I mean, I didn't, I would not have said that. And I still don't love the feeling of like losing
35:44control that way and feeling that vulnerable. It's not my favorite space. However, I'm getting
35:50more comfortable with it and more used to it and less afraid of it. But it's hard. It's hard. And
35:55I, it's funny because there's one that says don't let life harden your heart. And I remember,
35:59you know, as I had, I grew up in a situation where it was a little tricky to, to find
36:05sort of
36:06tenderness. And so I really got good at compartmentalizing and was able to really
36:10say, well, that really hurts. And I don't like it, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to focus
36:14on it. I'm not going to think about it. I'm going to just put it over there in that, behind
36:18that door.
36:20Fine. The problem is eventually someone opens the door and it all comes rushing back. And,
36:25you know, I spent a lot of time doing that. And so I, I had gotten, I don't know if
36:29I let life
36:30harden my heart, but I certainly shut a lot of it out. And so I've spent a lot, a lot
36:35of time in the
36:35past, you know, year and someone that's, um, trying to like, just be more tender, I guess.
36:42Yeah. Jenna Lyons, thank you so much for being a guest in Unstyled today.
36:46Thanks for having me.
36:47I just love you.
36:48Oh, I love you too. Right back at you.
36:55I hope you're inspired after hearing Jenna's story. For even more Unstyled extras,
37:00check out Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick.
37:04You can also join the conversation using the hashtag Unstyled across your social media.
37:09And of course, we'd be infinitely grateful if you please subscribe to the Unstyled podcast on iTunes
37:15and rate us while you're there. You can head over to Refinery29.com to find this episode and more,
37:21and make sure to sign up for our exclusive Unstyled newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every
37:27week. Our show today was executive produced by Bridget Todd, associate produced by Rebecca Easley,
37:33and edited by Priscilla Minna. Copy support was provided by Kelsey Miller. Our theme music today
37:39is by the artist Koth, and we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist at Argo Studios. We'll see you back
37:46here next Monday for a conversation with actress and Broadway star Cynthia Erivo on navigating success
37:52and destiny.