- 6 minutes ago
Jeremy White and Joe DiBiase start their Wednesday morning show by discussing the latest news coming out of the Bills, the release of veteran safety CJ Gardner-Johnson. The guys look back on his rocky start with the team that featured inconsistent play and reckless decision making. They also wonder how big a factor his suspension for spitting played in the decision. This leads to a larger conversation about the way the Bills go bargain hunting, and how rarely it had paid off for Beane and the Bills.
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00:00C.J. Gardner-Johnson. That's the news of the day, right? The Bills cut ties with C.J. Gardner-Johnson.
00:07And can we have a little bit of fun with the announcement? Is that allowed?
00:13Sure.
00:14Every single line, every single report included the line.
00:18It was C.J.'s inconsistency in play that led to the release, not as much the spitting incident that got
00:23him suspended.
00:24Respectfully.
00:26Just respectfully.
00:27Respectfully.
00:28It was C.J.'s inconsistency that led to the release, not as much the spitting incident that got him suspended.
00:34All right, let's have a little fun with this.
00:36As of the Bills' defense is, of course, so very consistent.
00:40Everybody over there is so—I mean, I don't know that the spitting had anything to do with it.
00:44It probably had something to do with it.
00:46It probably had something to do with the fact—I think you got it right.
00:49He was about to get benched, and he won't accept that.
00:52Right.
00:52And there's a podcast with T.J. Hushmanzada talking about that very thing, maybe with Emmanuel Acho.
00:57And he's saying exactly that.
01:00Yeah.
01:00That C.J. Gardner-Johnson would not accept the demotion.
01:03If he's running with the twos, he's got a problem.
01:06He's cut that day.
01:07That's how it's going to go.
01:09That's how it went in Houston.
01:10So the Bills will carry some dead cap for him this year, and I think $1 million in dead cap
01:14for him next year as well.
01:16Which I did see—I thought that was an additional one they would take on, but they had a void year
01:21next year that was won, so I guess it's the same $1 million.
01:24Sure, sure.
01:24But whatever.
01:25He's going to count for $1 million next year.
01:26Right.
01:26The Bills—I mean, this is the—if there's—whatever.
01:30There's one place the Bills have been living, and that's the free agent market.
01:34They are signing, you know, guys that are kind of with names, bottom of the barrel, trying to get one
01:39more kick at it.
01:40And C.J. Gardner-Johnson, we probably could have set the over-under at seven and a half weeks of
01:45how long it would last, and it's over.
01:47So he's not here anymore.
01:49Does this have to foretell a trade at safety?
01:53I do not think it has to.
01:55It might, but I don't think it has to.
01:58And he's gone.
01:59He had a pick in the Charger game.
02:01He'd been inconsistent.
02:02To me, it's a position that we don't talk about as much as some of the others.
02:09Yep.
02:09But it has been a rotating door.
02:12Since Poyer and Hyde left, it has been a complete rotating door that included Jordan Poyer coming back into it.
02:18Right.
02:19Hyde almost came back into it.
02:20That's right.
02:21He was here.
02:21Hyde tried to come back in through it in the playoffs, and then he became a coach and probably wasn't
02:26going to play.
02:27So, like, man, it has been a journey to try to find any consistency in that spot.
02:32You've got Cole Bishop, and then – but even Cole Bishop, going back to last year in training camp, it
02:37was, we don't know who's going to play next to Taylor Rapp.
02:40Ends up being Bishop.
02:41He's good.
02:43And maybe it's not playing next to C.J. Garner-Johnson that makes Bishop a little bit better.
02:47Maybe he kind of just feels more comfortable.
02:49Things are settled down in the back end.
02:51Again, I see a lot of the Bill's content creators in terms of, like, film guys will talk about this
02:56with Joe Marino saying basically that, you know, C.J. Garner-Johnson could have been benched before the spitting incident.
03:01Not very good.
03:02So, it's fine.
03:04It is just kind of funny how every single reporter alive was told and told us it was not the
03:11spitting.
03:11It was not the spitting.
03:12Please don't say it was the spitting.
03:14Mm-hmm.
03:15I found it funny.
03:16But it's hard to believe that it doesn't matter at all.
03:19It's just – but I also –
03:21It's what they signed up for, right?
03:22Right.
03:23They signed up for the personality.
03:26They signed up to probably deal with a couple of headaches.
03:29You know, there were a couple of headaches along the way.
03:33There was, what, a filming in the locker room incident in training camp for a minute.
03:38Yeah, there's the Efton Chisholm comment you mentioned, right?
03:40Yep, there's that.
03:41There's the spitting incident.
03:43Obviously, is above those two by a lot.
03:46Suspension.
03:47Suspension.
03:48Like, you have to deal with all of that.
03:49But what was the idea of Gardner-Johnson?
03:51This is where, like, I can actually believe to a certain extent that, yeah,
03:56the real motivating reason here was that the player wasn't giving you what he wanted on the field.
04:00Because they knew who he was.
04:03Yep.
04:04They knew what they were signing up for.
04:05They might have even known about past spitting incidents.
04:08Kyle Juszczyk knew about one.
04:10Mm-hmm.
04:10Like, maybe it was known around the league.
04:12Like, this dude has spit on people before.
04:14I wondered if they would have put some sort of language in the contract saying, like,
04:18hey, we know he's this kind of guy.
04:19If something happens, we can get out a little easier.
04:22Yeah.
04:23But whatever.
04:23We don't look at those contracts.
04:25Right.
04:25So, you knew you were signing up for something in that department.
04:29But I think what you thought you were getting, especially, he's not 35.
04:34You know, he's 28 years old.
04:36He's a 28-year-old safety.
04:38Jordan Poyer last year just gave you a bunch of good games at what?
04:41Was he 34?
04:42No.
04:42Six years older.
04:43They probably thought he was going to be good.
04:46That's what the vibe of training camp was.
04:47How many times did we hear, like, one of the biggest reasons this defense is going to be good this
04:51year
04:51is because C.J. Garner Johnson is here.
04:54And he makes plays.
04:55He makes plays.
04:55Right.
04:56And there was a time in the beginning of the season, maybe preseason training camp, he got hurt.
05:00And we were really worried about what that would mean for the defense because he's kind of a key cog
05:05in this defense being a playmaking defense.
05:07Right.
05:08That was what was sold at the time.
05:10And we were selling it.
05:11And six games into his Bills career, none of that was happening.
05:15Yeah.
05:15He was not really making plays.
05:17He made one play against the Chargers.
05:19And otherwise, he's getting cooked by backup tight ends.
05:23And he also might be at least part of the cause for why the defense was so all over the
05:30place.
05:32Miscommunication and not on the same page.
05:35You're a part of that communication, a huge part of that from that position.
05:39You're also one of the – you're the veteran, right?
05:42Like, you're a veteran player back there.
05:44And it did not feel like he was helping at all.
05:47One of the other things I know a lot of the film guys have said is, like, he looked as
05:49lost as any of the other guys.
05:51Yep.
05:51Maybe he looked the most lost.
05:53So, if you're not buttoned up on the communication piece of it, and I got a bunch of young pieces
05:58back there,
05:58and you're not playing well, you're not worth the headaches.
06:03So, yeah, the headaches are a part of it, but they decided, I think, in the spring, he's worth dealing
06:10with all of that
06:10because we're going to get good play.
06:12And he just never gave you the good play.
06:14That's it.
06:15Yep.
06:16Never got it.
06:17Which, that's not much different than some of the other veterans they brought in.
06:21If we went through a list of veterans they've signed, and did they get what they thought they were going
06:27to get out of them?
06:28This is just free agency.
06:30It is not a long list of success.
06:33Really at all.
06:34Go back to last year.
06:35I mean, Larry Ogunjobi, did he ever get cut for inconsistent play?
06:39He might have been made a healthy scratch.
06:41Are you sure?
06:42I don't think he ever got cut.
06:42Joey Bosa, was he cut for inconsistent play?
06:46No.
06:46I mean, those are bigger contracts and guys you expected bigger contributions from.
06:50But, you know, on and on, we see some of these signings.
06:53Geno Stone was cut.
06:56Yeah.
06:56It's another guy brought in in free agency.
06:58There's the Mike, is it Mike Edwards?
07:00Who's the guy from the Chiefs?
07:01Mike Edwards.
07:02That was one of the safety ideas.
07:03Safety ideas.
07:04He didn't make it out of camp, though.
07:05No, that's right.
07:06And it's just, there's a rotating door, and I feel like the Bills are, maybe it's one of the things
07:12that is, I don't know, I want to say frustrating.
07:15They're a very good team.
07:16They've had very good results.
07:18And sometimes, you know, we are here probably talking about, like, nitpicking things.
07:23And would even admit, like, to Brandon Bean, like, this maybe is nitpicking.
07:27But their build-out, their model seems to pretty consistently be paying our own and then scraps in free agency.
07:36And then you get what you pay for with those scraps.
07:39They are really scrounging in free agency.
07:42And here's another one with Carter Johnson where it doesn't work.
07:45On and on.
07:45Guys come in, get a million dollars, and then just leave.
07:48That's MVS in the free agent market for a receiver, right?
07:51Didn't he get one point – Elijah Moore got $1.5 million to not play.
07:55You know, he's just – you are consistently paying your own and paying your own that you do like in
08:01the draft, and that's a good thing.
08:03But so much so that there seems to be so little room left in the free agent market.
08:07Maybe you don't want to build your team that way.
08:08But, man, if we were to go to their best free agent signings of the Bean era, Mitch Morse is
08:16number one.
08:18Who's number two?
08:19Conor McGovern.
08:20Okay.
08:20Conor McGovern.
08:21They got center locked down.
08:23Yes, they do.
08:25Although McGovern was a guard.
08:26But with both of those, they're paying reasonably well, right?
08:29Oh, sure.
08:29Morse was the highest paid center in the league.
08:31Morse was – they shot for the moon.
08:33They got the top paid guy, and they had a career out of that guy.
08:37McGovern is paying the going rate for a guy at guard and, you know, moving him over to center and
08:42bringing him back.
08:43But after those two, like, who's the best free agent?
08:46Not that you would have expected CJ Garner to be this, but –
08:50Well, there was some expectation, though, that he would perform for them.
08:53That's right.
08:54But I just think one year, 3.5, sometimes that's all I have to do.
08:59You know how – it's kind of like how in hockey, I don't have to watch the game.
09:02Just show me the expected goals.
09:03Like, no, you should watch the game.
09:04Just show me the contract.
09:06If the contract says one year, 3.5, you are not expecting much, and you're probably not getting much.
09:10Most of the time.
09:12It tells me the commitment you're willing to make.
09:14It tells me the market for the player.
09:16Like, that's Taylor Rapp.
09:183.5 at safety.
09:19This guy's just coming in and maybe not, you know, screwing things up for you.
09:23Don't you want, though, at some point – like, if you – I mean, I know it's probably not a
09:28really high hit rate.
09:29It's not like other teams are signing those guys, and 80% of them are playing really well for them.
09:34But I think you do want a few of those once in a while to really –
09:40Overperform.
09:40Like, your bargain bin – like, this guy's going to start one-year deals.
09:44Like, let's go in the discount aisle, and let's get something that produces for us.
09:48Like, I think every 10 times you do that, you probably want three or four of them to actually give
09:54you what you want.
09:55And here, I would imagine there are names we're forgetting about that did actually produce for them like that.
10:03Like, is Leonard Floyd a good answer for this?
10:05Yes, yes.
10:06Nine and a half sacks?
10:07Yeah.
10:07Yes.
10:08And he might have been a little bit more of a commitment, right, on a one-year deal.
10:11Yeah.
10:11Like, he wasn't paid long-term.
10:12But he was good.
10:13Ten sacks for them.
10:15But I don't know how long that – Emmanuel Sanders.
10:18I'm going back five years now, but Emmanuel Sanders was a one-year deal, and he was good for them.
10:24But other than that, those are just the top two names that came to my mind.
10:28One of those is five years ago.
10:29Leonard Floyd was one-year for $7 million.
10:31Yeah, like, that's a good sign.
10:32It really was.
10:33That's a really good sign.
10:34It was coming off a time where he made 16 and a half, he made seven, and then he went
10:38on to a bigger contract the next year.
10:40Yeah.
10:40So, if you're looking at over-performing free agents for the Bills, Leonard Floyd, yes, on the list.
10:46Emmanuel Sanders, yes.
10:47Brown and Beasley, yes.
10:48But, like, in the last two years, like, I've got Joey Bosa.
10:52That did not work.
10:53Like, first half of the year went pretty well, and he did nothing in the second half.
10:57Not just didn't work, but, like, they're moving money around, and they've got void years to keep him here, and
11:01he's on the cap.
11:02Is he on the cap for $7 million in dead cap this year?
11:05I think so.
11:06Maybe that's wrong.
11:07I saw a number about the Bills not paying a lot this year.
11:09Whatever.
11:09Josh Palmer.
11:10Josh Palmer.
11:11Curtis Samuel.
11:12Curtis Samuel.
11:13That's the year before.
11:14Derek Forrest.
11:15I don't think he ever made – that's one of those safety ideas.
11:17I don't think he ever made it.
11:18Geno Stone.
11:19C.J. Gardner-Johnson.
11:21Dee Alford.
11:22That's not really going great.
11:24It's not going well.
11:24He might lose his job.
11:25Michael Hoyt.
11:26He got injured, but this year he's not doing anything.
11:28We'll always have those six quarters.
11:30And then you've got a couple backup linemen.
11:31I wonder if Hoyt can get back with, you know, with the injury.
11:34It might just be the kind of thing it takes time.
11:36Mike Edwards in here.
11:37I mean, if I go to the previous year, Puna Ford.
11:39Didn't work here, and it's worked everywhere else.
11:41Right.
11:41Taylor Rapp.
11:43There's Floyd.
11:44Floyd's a good one.
11:45I mean, there's McGovern.
11:47It's a pretty thin list.
11:50Like, I'm not really seeing any other – I think we might have named the couple.
11:53Like, the bargain bin free agent ideas that they signed, and, like, it went really, really well, and it worked
11:59for them.
11:59Which, if it's a bargain bin, chances are the Bills are not alone here.
12:03But these deals often don't turn into much.
12:06Right.
12:07And that's probably what we should remind ourselves when we get to March and they sign a guy like, let's
12:12make sure we keep our reasonable expectations here.
12:15Because teams – if a guy is out there, especially post-draft – you know how many of these guys
12:19the Bills have signed post-draft?
12:21That's Elijah Moore.
12:22If you're still out there post-draft, chances are, like, you are – you know, maybe you're holding out for
12:27money.
12:27I mean, that's Diggs this year.
12:29Diggs continues to be a guy that signs in free agency and overproduces.
12:33But, you know, for what he is.
12:35They'd probably say Matt Collins was a good bargain bin one-year deal, right?
12:38That was a good one.
12:39I would agree with that.
12:40I would say Matt Collins –
12:40And he was cheap.
12:41He gave them stuff.
12:43The home runs, though, were a long time ago, right?
12:46Like, I think Beasley and Brown were great signings.
12:50Yeah.
12:50Seven years ago.
12:52I think, obviously, Hyde and Poir were the biggest home runs in free agency you could possibly have hit.
12:58Bean's not even here yet, right?
12:59Like, that's how long ago that was.
13:01That's McDermott and Doug Whaley, I think, that are signing those two.
13:04So, you'd like it to be a little bit more frequent.
13:08And you kind of are just back to, well, when these signings don't work out, where am I at?
13:16Well, I'm at the guy who's been here forever, and I'm going to put him back in there.
13:20And now it's just instead of Poir or Hyde, it's Damar Hamlin, who's been here a long time now.
13:25And, like, I just – all right, you've got to go in there.
13:28Because the guys that I brought in to solve this problem in the offseason aren't really cutting it.
13:34So, I've got to go back to a guy that I've trusted that's been here a long time, and I
13:39also know has some deficiencies.
13:41But that's just where I'm at, right?
13:42Unless Geno Stone can, you know, become something here.
13:46To that point – so, just got a tweet right now from Sean who wrote, Geno Stone had a good
13:51game.
13:51No, I think this might have pushed the decision.
13:53Maybe.
13:54I want to just take the lesson we're trying to – I'm trying to tell myself at least here.
13:59Geno Stone is on a one-year practice squad deal.
14:03They signed him, and he didn't make the team.
14:06And then he's back on the practice squad.
14:08So, what should I expect out of Geno Stone?
14:10Is he just better than Damar Hamlin?
14:12Is that the standard for the Bills at safety?
14:15Maybe.
14:15Maybe Hamlin's a starter.
14:16Maybe it's going to be Jalen Kilgore.
14:18Oh, I think Hamlin's a starter.
14:20Or Jordan Hancock can come back and get healthy.
14:22Like, there are names in the mix here.
14:24But Geno Stone's a guy that, you know, when the Bills signed him, we called Cincinnati folks.
14:28Like, what do you think of this guy?
14:29They're like, eh, he's a guy.
14:31Like, don't – did he really beat out C.J. Garner-Johnson in one week against Joe Feniano?
14:39Just because of communication?
14:40Very possibly.
14:42Very possibly the Bills could be so, you know, frustrated by the back-end communication.
14:45It could have been all C.J. Garner-Johnson.
14:47So, I'm not telling you anything that happened today is bad.
14:51To me, it's all about the lesson of bargain bin free agency is get what you pay for.
14:57And the Bills have been getting what they're paying for quite a bit.
15:00Yeah, I don't really think they're losing anything given what he looked like on the field.
15:04No.
15:04Like, I think Hamlin is going to be the guy, especially with all the talk about communication
15:09and, like, that being an issue and how good he is at it.
15:11Leonard has talked him up in that department.
15:13Like, I fully expect it's going to be Hamlin here until they either trade for somebody or,
15:19I guess, if they don't, then it's Hamlin.
15:20Which could happen this week.
15:21Right.
15:21Or they're going to like the guys in the room.
15:24Maybe what Stone did was just look competent enough and look good enough that we don't really feel like
15:32we're missing anything from Garner-Johnson to you as, like, a depth piece.
15:36Because of the earlier point of we don't think Garner-Johnson as a depth piece is going to be a
15:43manageable situation.
15:45But you, Gino Stone, we trust you'll be a good pro about it.
15:48You've been on the practice squad.
15:50You know, you can play 20% of the snaps.
15:52And, you know, you're just a veteran guy that we can just trust to be a good teammate.
15:57And if we try to do that same thing with Garner-Johnson, then it might blow up in our face.
16:00Bingo.
16:00Right.
16:01That's why it's Gino Stone.
16:02Rich in Lakeview.
16:03Hey, Rich.
16:04Good morning, guys.
16:05You know, as Joe Brady navigates exactly how he's going to mature as a head coach, I think part of
16:11it is public relations.
16:13And, you know, we've all remarked about his coach speak and, you know, word salad, trying to toe the line
16:19with this.
16:20But I thought interesting when he was asked post-conference about Garner-Johnson, he kind of didn't brush it off,
16:28but he remarked that, well, we're not allowed to have contact with him.
16:32We'll take care of that.
16:32You know, usually you hear something like, well, you know, we can't contact him.
16:37The guy's in the room.
16:39You know, just check in on him to see how he's doing.
16:41And I'm wondering if it was more of an overreaching umbrella.
16:45Like, was it addition by subtraction?
16:48I'm sure they talked to the leaders in the locker room.
16:50How was the week without him?
16:52How was practice without him?
16:53Like the acting up kid in the back of a classroom.
16:57And I kind of think with his behavior, it's more like an Al Capone thing, right?
17:00They got him for tax evasion, not for what he really did.
17:03And this just gave the bills an out.
17:05And that's what I'm wondering about.
17:07Is this Brady putting a stamp on the culture?
17:11And not in reaction to anything the fans or media fans, but as he navigates exactly how
17:16he wants to be a head coach and control his role.
17:18Yeah.
17:19Rich, I think you make a phenomenal point.
17:21Start to finish, no notes.
17:23When it happened, a lot of fans, a lot of people covering the team when the spitting incident
17:27happened, thought immediately, you've got to go.
17:30He's got to go.
17:31He's not good enough to matter.
17:32You have the chance to make a statement.
17:34You're off our team.
17:35That's not what the Buffalo Bills are about.
17:36You're embarrassing the organization.
17:38They decided not to do that.
17:39Instead, they wait a week.
17:41Maybe they do exactly what you're talking about in the building for whatever.
17:47Conversations with the agent, anything.
17:50They say, let's take a breath, take a step back.
17:53Is this something we want to continue with?
17:55And they say, you know what?
17:56It's probably not worth it.
17:57And they can say, it's not about the spitting.
17:59It's about everything.
18:00And regarding making a statement, you know, Brady this week has had some interesting things
18:05to say, which I think are totally defendable.
18:10He said, we don't want to be last in the league in penalties.
18:13He wants guys to play with an edge.
18:15He wants to be aggressive.
18:16He wants to, whatever, have a little football mindset, not just business, but they want to
18:21be a little mean.
18:22They want to be a little edgy.
18:23And this guy was going to give them a little bit of that.
18:26And they said, like, all right, maybe they looked seven weeks in, Joe, and thought, we
18:29have a good amount of this.
18:30And that right there is a little too much of it.
18:33So we don't need it the way we thought we did.
18:35Right?
18:36I saw Emmanuel Acho going on about this.
18:39Like, C.J.
18:39Gardner-Johnson's got friends in the league and in the media.
18:41And Emmanuel Acho, his take on this was, the Bills are losing their enforcer, their
18:48veteran physical guy.
18:49And if you take him out of this mix, who's going to do that?
18:53And my thought was, that's Cole Bishop.
18:56The guy in the secondary that hits and sends messages is Cole Bishop playing at full speed.
19:03So if C.J.
19:04Gardner-Johnson's presence makes it so Cole Bishop is kind of lost because Gardner-Johnson
19:09is lost, well, give me whatever gets me Cole Bishop at his full capacity.
19:14That's what Jordan Poyer brought.
19:16Jordan Poyer jumped in.
19:18I was skeptical about if it could work.
19:20Jordan Poyer jumped in and then, bang, Cole Bishop is a good player.
19:23So whatever you've got to do to unlock that guy, because I think he's one of their best
19:28defensive players and an important player, that's the message you send.
19:32That's what you do.
19:32Like, all right, we'll get this Gardner-Johnson character out of here.
19:36Thank you for coming.
19:37It's not about the spitting.
19:38We have bigger, better things to do.
19:41So I think it's a fine move.
19:43It draws, you know, a light on a couple different things about their process.
19:47But you also, Rich, mentioned, like, Joe Brady's evolution and growing into being a head coach.
19:51I think that's a big part of this, too.
19:53Like, we're learning about him as he's growing with it.
19:59In the last three years, there have been 11 safeties that have played for the Bills.
20:03Woof!
20:04Played snaps for the Bills.
20:0511 safeties.
20:0711 safeties.
20:08After, what, eight years of two guys?
20:10Yeah.
20:11One of them is Poyer.
20:12Fair.
20:13Coming back.
20:14And we've named most, the only ones we haven't really named at some point in this segment,
20:18Darnell Savage.
20:19I did not forget Darnell Savage.
20:21All right.
20:21He played in the playoff game against the Broncos.
20:23He did.
20:23Kareem Jackson.
20:25Texan.
20:26Texan.
20:27And then he played a minute here.
20:29And then Mike Edwards did play seven snaps for them.
20:31I don't remember.
20:32I thought he got cut.
20:33Maybe he worked his way back at some point.
20:35Probably came back.
20:368-0-3-0-5-50 on CJ Gardner-Johnson's release on the trade deadline.
20:41Do you think this means they are going to make a move?
20:44We'll get your phone calls in.
20:458-0-3-0-5-50 on WGR.