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A panel of military veterans examines the proposed overhaul to the Agnipath recruitment model on Battle Cry.
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00:0025% who will finish their engagement period for 4 years, 25% will be enrolled in regular soldiers.
00:12Also, 75% of Agnivir have recommended that the 75% of Agnivir will be given a second engagement period
00:28for 2 years.
00:30According to the merits, 25% of Agnivir will be enrolled in regular forces.
00:38Now, it was first to say that 75% of Agnivir will be able to exit in society as disciplined
00:45and motivated youth.
00:47But in this scheme, the remaining 75% of Agnivir will be given a second engagement period for 2 years.
01:19I have three specialists who are joining me on this broadcast.
01:24And man management has been their forte in the armed forces.
01:28And then, there is another dimension to this.
01:32And on India First, on Battlecry, we'll talk about it.
01:35It's the India-Nepal brotherhood.
01:39Joining me on Battlecry is Lefton General Rakesh Sharma, former Adjutant General, also commanded the Ladakh Corps.
01:45For General Shaukeen Chauhan, Lefton General Shaukeen Chauhan, was former Director General of Assam Rifles and former Chairman of the
01:51Ceasefire Monitoring Group.
01:53Vice Admiral Sheikhar Sina, former Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Western Naval Command.
01:58Gentlemen, welcome.
01:59I want to understand from you the new scheme that has come in.
02:06And General Chauhan, may I begin by asking you, sir, does this open another window for bringing soldiers from Nepal
02:16back into the fold, sir?
02:18Bharat, thank you for calling me for your show.
02:21It's an important announcement of this extension of service and, secondly, the absorption of the soldiers if they want to
02:29after the second extension.
02:32Yes, I think it definitely will help in convincing the Nepal government to allow their soldiers to join the Indian
02:40armed forces,
02:40since it now covers a larger period of the Earth's seven-year-old service and a seven-year-old reserve.
02:49So, we're hoping that the Nepalese government will see reason for this and allow their soldiers to be recruited into
02:57the Indian armed forces.
02:58We will definitely try and hope that this happens soon.
03:02General Sharma, your reading of the cabinet decision of the two-year extension and then, of course, absorption of the
03:10remaining 75% after two years.
03:14Thank you, Gaurav, for inviting me.
03:16And thank you, hello to Admiral Sina, whom I salute always, and Shokin, a good friend.
03:23Now, I see, I will take it as, whether you take it organizationally or individual aspirations or for the societal
03:31issues,
03:32in any which way, this is a dramatic shift.
03:34It is very bold and very strong.
03:36So, organizationally, it makes an advantage because, you know, you see, the best can be retained.
03:43At four years, you retain the best for the additional two years.
03:46And at six years, you retain the best.
03:49Only those who are non-performers can be eased out.
03:51So, the armed forces becomes a meritorious organization in selection till six years of service.
03:58So, there is an organizational advantage, a tremendous amount of advantage in this one.
04:03Individually, it's aspirational.
04:05You know, joining armed forces was always an aspirational nature.
04:09Now, there is an even possibility of nearly everybody who joins in the Akhribat scheme can be absorbed in the
04:15scheme per se.
04:16As, you know, the choice available at six years is that you, if you're not a bad hat, you will
04:23be inside the service.
04:25And if you're a technologist or you have gained some more experience, you can certainly be absorbed.
04:31So, you know, it becomes a nearly 100 percent possibility for the entire Agni V to join into the individual
04:37aspiration.
04:39Now, as you aware, four years ago, societally, there was a problem here.
04:43The society are, at least in the army, larger number of people come from rural background.
04:48So, there was a societal anxiety.
04:49Now, of course, the societal anxiety can be assuaged when the chances of joining the armed forces for long are,
04:56for the entire duration is there.
04:59So, all, in any which way, it's a good advantageous scheme.
05:02There are issues that are still irking us, which we can debate as we progress it further.
05:08And we can discuss Nepal. Shokin has already spoken about it.
05:12This advantage of joining the, if, you know, one of these major issues was that there was a 10 years
05:19of this Maoist period when Shokin was the DA there in Nepal.
05:23And reported from there, I'd met General Shokin Chahan, then Colonel Shokin Chahan as DA in Nepal when that Maoist
05:28insurgency was at its peak in Nepal, sir.
05:30Go on, sir.
05:31Yeah, you're lucky. You're lucky he didn't meet me that time. So, you know, this, you know, the anxiety of
05:38trained soldiers with four years service in warfare, having done RR, going back into Nepal in an environment which is
05:47a little fraught with, you know, settling down into this one, there was an anxiety.
05:52Now, you know that these people are being absorbed in India. I think the floodgates must open and we must
05:57go back to the Prime Minister's speech in August 1914, where he said, Gurkha soldiers have shed blood in every
06:05war that has happened in India for the Indian security.
06:09Oh, absolutely. This was the Constituent Assembly in Kathmandu. Again, you know, I was sitting there reporting on that.
06:17But I want to bring you in, Admiral Sina, as far as the Navy is concerned, and look at the
06:22nature in which the warfare is changing.
06:25Now, how do you look at this cabinet decision that adds another two years and then gives an option for
06:3275% absorption for the remaining Agni Veers?
06:37Was there a need to bring about this change, looking at the changing nature of warfare?
06:43Well, thank you for getting me on your program, Gaurav. And really, it's great to be with my very good
06:49friends on the panel.
06:51You know, I look at it this way. Let us say, had this 75% not come about, you would
06:58have absorbed the 25% and you would have advertised again for the next lot of Agni Veers and trained
07:04them again for 25%.
07:05Now, here there's a big advantage. The 25% of the more capable guys you have gotten. And the rest
07:1275%, you've got another two years to train them to some level.
07:16Particularly for, you know, service like, now, of course, every service is very technical. Maybe it's a little more technical
07:22because of, you know, these systems like that.
07:24So, what happens is that you cannot impart some deep technical training to a person who's there only for four
07:32years.
07:32There was very lot of hesitation amongst the naval commanders, whoever I happened to meet informally, that, you know, the,
07:40sir, what do we teach them? Because they will go away.
07:44Well, no, that is going to be out of their minds. Those 25%, they will go full board.
07:50And those who are capable, now they are being retained for another two years so that they can give them
07:55a deeper training and they can really join into the main technical stream.
07:58You know, so technology intensive, including infantry, including the artillery, everything is very, very technology intensive.
08:06So, I would say, whatever you say, Gaurav, even at that time you had asked me, and I had said
08:12that, look, sooner or later, the government will have to take a relook.
08:16The government doesn't know what will happen after four years. And therefore, my sense is that they will look at
08:23it for three, four years.
08:24They will take the military brass's input and then they will take a decision. And my own sense was that
08:31this four years and someday will become seven years.
08:33Okay. So, that was your reading. So, it's become four plus two and then, you know, absorption for the rest.
08:41If I take you back in history, General Chauhan, post-independence, when the British Indian Army became the Indian Army,
08:49the tour of duty till 1976 was seven to ten years of color service.
08:55And then, 76 onwards, it changed to 17 years of color service.
08:59So, these reforms should remain constant or should they be cast in stone for better man management in your view,
09:07sir?
09:08Gaurav, nothing should be cast in stone. I must say that I agree entirely with General Sharma and Admiral Shekhar
09:15Sinha.
09:16The requirement is that we need the best soldiers. We need the most capable soldiers.
09:21But also, as General Shekhar said, that, you know, we were unable to provide them with any meaningful training in
09:28those four years.
09:29We couldn't send them an important process. Now, with six years and the idea that we can absorb them post
09:35that, we're going to send them on technical courses,
09:38on meaningful courses, and they will get trained even better. So, this is an important aspect.
09:43But like warfare is changing, so also must our rules of engagement change. So, also our need for soldiers change.
09:52And I'm glad that we have now the ability to go back to the Cabinet and say, look, allow us
09:57to change this.
09:58This is what we need now. And exactly what we need, we should be getting.
10:02And the idea that we'll be able to discuss with the Cabinet, and the Cabinet will agree to accept as
10:09they've accepted this time, is an important change.
10:11Okay. Did we need to, General Sharma, bring it down to four years, from 17 years color service to four
10:19-year tour of duty for 75% and then for 25% absorption?
10:25Or was there a plan? But given the nature of threat that we continue to face, whether it's with an
10:32adversary like Pakistan or a challenge like China,
10:35you need soldiers with longer color service?
10:39So, Gaurav, I'll take your later part as more important.
10:43You know, after 2020, when we have learned that the Chinese are at our doorstep,
10:49and we know in the course of last few years that we have actually deployed in very large numbers all
10:55along the border,
10:57and the Chinese have been needling us, there is a requirement of a steadiness across there on the borders.
11:02The level of commitments after 2020, especially on the line of actual control, has gone up many-fold higher than
11:11it used to exist prior to 2020.
11:13One.
11:14Second, as Zaitri pointed out, the technology has absolutely changed.
11:18You see today, there have been cyberattacks in Europe and the United States,
11:22you know, including at the military establishments inside cyberattacks.
11:29True.
11:32Okay, give me a moment as we try and refix our link with you.
11:36And I hope this is not a cyber attack.
11:38But Admiral Sina, the changing nature of warfare, especially with more unmanned systems coming in,
11:46you're looking at the Russia-Ukraine war or the Iran-U.S. war,
11:50the number of unmanned systems that have come in.
11:53Do we need the kind of manpower, given our scenario?
11:57You know, whether it's along the LAC, LOC, as far as the Navy is concerned,
12:03do we need more manpower or less manpower?
12:06I think we are now looking at a 200 Navy ship, aren't we, sir?
12:09A 200 ship Navy.
12:11You know, Gaurav, the Navy's situation is a little bit, as you said yourself, so many ships are coming.
12:18So you will require manpower for that.
12:20But the number of workstations will be less.
12:23And therefore, Navy will have to cut down the intake.
12:26In this case, what happens, coming back to this 25%, 75%, seven years,
12:30if you engage them initially for seven years, and the end of seven years,
12:34you have absorbed, let's say, almost all, and the new batch has come.
12:37Now, if you leave it at all open for everybody,
12:40then the person does not have a choice to leave or stay,
12:43or the service does not have a choice to retain him or not to retain him.
12:47Everybody doesn't get promoted.
12:48Then you send out a very disgruntled eye.
12:50So I would say this, you know, four years, seven years is a good arrangement.
12:55At the end of the seven years, they have to take a call.
12:58Shall I stay in the service?
12:59By then, they would have seen what is happening in Galwan,
13:01what is happening on Northeast, and what is happening in Sea,
13:04what is happening on submarines.
13:05So they would have made up their mind.
13:07By seven years, guys, quite, you know, 27, 28 years,
13:11they know what they want to do.
13:13So I would say that, you know, seven years of engagement,
13:16what it was, was not a bad arrangement at all.
13:18I think it was quite okay.
13:20And if you wanted to retain, all of them, you retain.
13:23Nobody stops you.
13:24But he also should be willing.
13:25You know, the soldier should also be willing.
13:27So the option is available at seven years, which is not a bad...
13:30I mean, after all, the Short Service Commission used to be seven years earlier.
13:33Yes.
13:33No, there's another aspect, the lateral induction in Central Armed Police Forces.
13:39Now, should that also not automatically happen?
13:42And if there is resistance, General Chauhan,
13:45then there should be an Act of Parliament, if you need to bring it in.
13:48You bring it in, you know, 25% absorption in state police forces,
13:53in anti-terror force, in special task force,
13:56in some other Central Armed Police Force, CRPF, BSF.
14:02Shouldn't that happen by law?
14:03So you retain 25% or 50% in the army, 25% can go to these forces.
14:08There are reports that there is some resistance,
14:10but this resistance then has to be fought at the government level and overcome.
14:16Well, I entirely agree with you.
14:18It's very important for us to, you know, ensure that our soldiers who are leaving us
14:22join the Central Armed Police Forces and join the state police forces and the SM rifles.
14:28All of them need trained soldiers.
14:30You don't need to do this training twice.
14:32Every force need not have its training centers.
14:36You can, when you have trained soldiers coming in and at the senior level,
14:40it's that much of a greater advantage.
14:42You save a lot of money in not training them to the extent that we have to train them.
14:47As when I was the head of the SM rifles, we had to train the soldiers.
14:51And you have almost 9 to 10 months of training.
14:54That entire thing gets reduced if you were to get a trained army soldier,
14:58not a part of the 25 or 50 or 60 or 75% that is there.
15:02So we don't need these trained soldiers.
15:04We should never let them go from government service or from our state armed forces
15:09or from the Central Armed Police Forces.
15:12We should allow them to continue.
15:14There are so many different avenues that we need them for.
15:17We need them for banks.
15:18We need them for public sector, you know, system.
15:23We have these fabulous boys who are coming in.
15:26The only thing we should be clear about is that these boys,
15:29whoever goes out is recommended for future employment.
15:34And if he's a bad hat and he's not recommended, he doesn't get employment.
15:37If he's a good guy and he's not in that top 25%,
15:41but he goes outside and he gets employed, I think that's a wonderful idea.
15:44You get good people being absorbed in all arms of the state.
15:51Jail Sharma, you were adjutant general.
15:54Is there resistance from CAPFs?
15:57Many argue that there is an Indian police service lobby.
16:01And I don't know if these are just rumors.
16:03You can guide us better.
16:05That resists ex-servicemen or those who finished their color service from becoming a part of the CAPFs.
16:12Is this a rumor?
16:13Is this true?
16:14How can it be overcome if it's true?
16:18So, this is not an ugly wheel issue.
16:20This is an issue which spans a long time.
16:23Even earlier, when the Sixth Pay Commission gave out his report,
16:27it said the CAPF should open up its doors for joining of the armed forces,
16:32people who leave the armed forces into CAPF.
16:35By 2013, most of the CAPF had said that they would not like to absorb the armed forces
16:40and their Sixth Pay Commission report was not actually brought into fore.
16:45It died away there.
16:46And subsequently, in this case also, there was initial resistance.
16:50Serious issues of matching of all these things between the CAPF and the army.
16:54And naturally, the CAPF was resisting this stage.
16:57There was persuasion.
16:59I am not even sure what commitment that they have made will stand hereafter
17:04when we have given the extension and likelihood of nearly 100% absorption after six years.
17:10Will the vacancies being allotted by the CAPF will stand
17:13or will they now finish the case and we are no more possible there?
17:16No, because this has to be a whole-of-the-nation approach.
17:19If the Agnipat scheme has to be successful, Admiral Sinha,
17:23it has to be the whole-of-the-nation approach that everyone steps in.
17:27You know, whether it's the CAPFs, whether it's other forces and agencies
17:34to ensure that whatever scheme comes in, if it's in national interest,
17:39it's in everybody's interest.
17:41No, I agree with you, Bharat.
17:42But you see, there's so much of, you know, trouble already
17:46between state and centre relationship.
17:49But let me also add to what you are showing on the screen,
17:5220% input into the Uttar Pradesh police is through the agribes.
17:58And similarly, correct me if I'm wrong,
18:00even Maharashtra has got around 40 or 50% reservation now.
18:03They have announced so.
18:04Yeah, particularly people belonging to Maharashtra, rightly so.
18:09So, you know, this is, this every government,
18:11at least the governments where the central government party is ruling,
18:15they can easily implement this.
18:16You know, this is nothing very great.
18:18All the police organizations, they will only gain.
18:21You don't have to train them basic discipline.
18:23You don't have to, you know, train them to remain courageous
18:26and, you know, tenacious and all that.
18:28So, I think that it should become a national law.
18:31It should go in an act of parliament that people coming out of
18:35either short service or a short employment after five, four years, six years,
18:39state governments are obliged to take them into the state police
18:42and other organizations, as you mentioned,
18:44like Coast Guard, Central Government, the Home Ministry has announced,
18:48CRPF.
18:49So, there is already existing.
18:51Why not the state police?
18:53Why not the PSU?
18:55You know, again, everyone is a national asset working in national interest.
19:00General Chauhan, the last 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show,
19:04are there niggles that still need to be looked into
19:07to smoothen this journey from this point on
19:10to have a cohesive force that's fighting fit and battle ready,
19:16fit for war?
19:17Yes, Kaurav.
19:18We're waiting for clarification.
19:21Firstly, on base is post the sixth year of service.
19:26Secondly, somewhere I've read that the soldiers
19:30that get absorbed after six years of service
19:32will have their service seniority protected.
19:36So, that's another issue that I've heard,
19:40and I've seen it in one of the newspapers,
19:43but it's not been confirmed.
19:45Thirdly, the idea of the pension.
19:48When will they cut the pension?
19:49Will they be in the normal scale of pension
19:51or will they be under the NPS scheme?
19:55Okay.
19:55Fourthly, I have read today that the absorption into the CAPF
20:01has been stopped completely post this announcement.
20:06So, let me bring in General Sharma.
20:08General Sharma, for a commanding officer to have 25%,
20:12first having all Agniveers, then 25% absorbed,
20:1675% on two-year extension, then more absorbed,
20:20will it lead to, you know, various levels of soldiers
20:26or is that not going to be either an administrative
20:29or an operational, you know, challenge
20:32for the commanding officer for units
20:35and as a cohesive fighting unit?
20:38Okay.
20:39I'll make some points on this one.
20:41Firstly, the unit, a unit is a very powerful body.
20:44They take any amount of punishment
20:46and they'll make any scheme successful.
20:48The unit commanding officers and the unit
20:51have got tremendous amount of strength to accepting.
20:54Having said that, I wish the scheme would seem simple.
20:59To me, it lacks simplicity.
21:02The simplicity has got tremendous amount of advantages.
21:05So, like you rightly pointed out,
21:07there will be gradations of I'm a 25% fellow,
21:11I'm a 60% fellow, I'm a 60% fifth-year,
21:1560%, sorry, 75% sixth-year, 75% second-year,
21:20I'm, you know, 22-batch, 23-batch, 24-batch,
21:23different pay scales of six years.
21:26And after six years, the seniority loss
21:28for these people of the 75%
21:30and thereafter retirement age is now shifting
21:33from 15 to 21.
21:34So, the terms and conditions, the fine print is not out.
21:38The fine print, absolutely.
21:41That's the fine print.
21:42The terms and condition of service.
21:43That we are waiting for.
21:44The terms and condition of service has to be worked out in detail.
21:46Absolutely.
21:46And I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
21:49Admiral Sina, General Sharma and General Chauhan
21:52for joining me here on Battle Cry.
21:54Many thanks.
21:54And we'll be tracking this story very, very closely
21:58because our armed forces, they are fighting fit.
22:02They need to be fit for war physically,
22:06mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
22:09That's a story we'll be tracking closely.