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On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria about his success in streamlining housing development in the city, and the lessons he’s learned that local officials in other cities can apply.

Related to this episode:

Michael Bloomberg: To ease the housing shortage, empower mayors
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/michael-bloomberg-to-ease-the-housing-shortage-empower-mayors/

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Transcript
00:10Welcome, everyone. My guest today is Todd Gloria. He is the mayor of San Diego and president of the
00:16U.S. Conference of Mayors. We're going to talk about the importance of local officials and what
00:21and what mayors can do to really move housing along in their cities, which you guys have just
00:26done an incredible job at. So, Mayor, welcome to the podcast. Sarah, thanks so much for having me.
00:32It's really great to have you. So, we first learned about what you guys are doing there,
00:37what you're specifically doing through an op-ed that Michael Bloomberg wrote for us,
00:42where he talked about the power of mayors to really make a difference in housing. And I think
00:48that we just had this election. We have new leadership in Congress. People are all about
00:55that. But so much of housing we know is local. And so, I just would love to dive in and
01:01talk
01:01about some of the innovative things that you have done to really move the development needle in San
01:07Diego. So, maybe you can give us the backdrop of that. Oh, well, let me just say, buckle up,
01:11because I love housing as an issue. This is where I've spent my professional career. It's why I'm the
01:16mayor or why I sought the mayor's office. I tell San Diegans, you know, I'll pick up your garbage once
01:21a week in exchange for the opportunity to work on housing issues. And so, this attention from you
01:25and from Bloomberg Philanthropies is particularly meaningful, because I'm in my sixth year as mayor,
01:30and this is where we've spent the lion's share of our time, largely because it's what I hear the
01:34most from San Diegans about, you know, the high cost of housing, the inability to buy a home,
01:38and certainly our homelessness crisis are all sort of expressions of that. And what I've tried to do is,
01:44you know, just dive in feet first on this passion subject of mine. And I'm grateful it's getting
01:48some attention. I mean, generally speaking, what we've tried to do is increase production
01:51of all forms of housing, recognizing that everyone needs a roof over their head at a price that they
01:56can afford. And so, that's everything from permit streamlining to planning and zoning updates
02:01to personnel. Obviously, I'm not the one issuing the permits. I'm providing direction and need a
02:06team that responds to it. But I think what we have in San Diego at this point is the whole
02:10of
02:10government understanding that we have to tackle this emergency like it's an emergency. And six years into
02:17this, it's starting to bear fruit where we're seeing housing production numbers literally double
02:21what they've been historically, and that resulting in a flattening or reduction of rents. We still have
02:27a lot of work to do. There's still too many people who live on our streets. There's still too many
02:30people
02:30who can't see being able to buy a home just yet. But I still got new policies I'm working on
02:34as we
02:35speak to try and introduce, to innovate, and then hopefully replicate across the country.
02:39You know, that development part, like going through the city, all of that is just,
02:44you know, everyone understands the pain of that. I think what's so interesting is like we would think
02:49of a city like Houston, for instance, that has less zoning than other cities where it's just really
02:54easy to build. But I don't think that people think of California cities as having that reputation. So
03:00maybe give us some of the stats on how you have reduced the time to get things approved.
03:06I think this is where Bloomberg took note. So I issued an executive order early in my time as
03:14mayor asking staff to review permit applications in 30 days or less. In some jurisdictions, they're
03:21pretty quick. But, you know, in our city, we were talking about something that normally would take
03:24months or sometimes years. And time is money, right? So that length of time is absolutely adding to the
03:30cost of housing beyond the fact that you can't proceed without a permit, right? So you're not building the
03:34housing, you're taking too long, you're adding to the cost. That's how you get a housing affordability
03:39crisis and a homelessness crisis, like what we've experienced. So the first executive order was back
03:43in 2023. It said that we would process all affordable housing projects in 30 days or less.
03:50I will confess, Sarah, my team here was maybe not thrilled with that, right? That's if they could do
03:56it, they would have done it already, right? Well, I think this is very much a case study in setting
04:00high
04:00expectations and then managing to a goal because our team quickly got past whatever concerns they
04:06had. And they now do this in an average of nine days. And I'm not surprised because I think we
04:13have a great team, but really challenging them to that higher standard and then managing to it is
04:17what they did. I regret to inform them that they're rewarded by saying that we're going to expand that
04:22executive order the next year by including all transit-oriented development. This is where I'd point out
04:27that you can't spell Todd without T-O-D, transit-oriented development, right? Play on my name.
04:32Anyway, they now are also doing the same thing for those kinds of projects in less than 30 days
04:37on an average of nine. So as mayor, as chief executive officer of this city, you know, I have to
04:43manage
04:43the day-to-day operations, setting that example, and then providing them the tools and resources. So
04:47our policy updates, our zoning updates, our funding, you know, we had to create some new positions and that
04:53was money well spent because the end result is that we're getting more properties turning over.
04:57We're getting more housing people can afford, more tax revenue from those improved properties with
05:01more property taxes. So it's been a wise investment. I think that's what captured the attention of
05:07Bloomberg Philanthropies and Mayor Bloomberg. I think people might look at that and go,
05:11oh, well, this is because of technology. Would you say it's, you know, what part did technology
05:15change versus just like the workflow? Not as much as you would think, in part because,
05:23you know, we are in a very regulated environment. And so technology innovation generally has to be
05:28a part of the collective bargaining process and things of that nature. And we've had great
05:31partnership with our representative employee groups, but that's just another process that takes
05:35more time, right? I will say that this may be one of the few silver linings in COVID where
05:40because many of our permitting staff had to move to remote work in 2020 and 2021,
05:45there were some important investments in tech to allow that process to be electronic submittal,
05:52quit doing paper stuff. You know, when I was a baby city council member here at City Hall,
05:56I used to see people standing at the front door with, you know, big voluminous blueprints,
06:00you know, that this is in the 20 aughts, right? You know, that's, come on, we were beyond that. So
06:05I do think that that was a part of it, but Sarah, we have, I think, a lot more that
06:09we can do
06:10in the technology realm to further speed up our process and make it more certain,
06:15de-risk it further. But for right now, this has been more about people. And I think what's been,
06:21where we've been able to get the partnership with our labor unions is them recognizing that I know
06:26that the slowness in the past really had to do in part with under-resourcing. Yeah, set high
06:31expectations, but you have to give your folks the computers, the coworkers to get the job done.
06:36And we've been willing to do that. And again, this has paid for itself. These are, you know,
06:41fee-supported efforts. And what I've found is that people are willing to pay the fees if you're willing
06:46to give them a promised outcome. And, you know, writing a check to the city of San Diego and being
06:50told, yeah, we'll see in a few months or a few years, no one's into that. But when we can
06:55say,
06:55you'll get this in 30 days or less, people have been willing to respond. And the end result is that
06:59we have employees that I think are energized and supported in a way that they haven't been historically.
07:04You know, what you guys did with having a digital file. So, you know, instead of someone having to
07:09go to city hall and deal with a whole bunch of different people, a whole bunch of different
07:15forms, they have a digital file so that the developers and the builders, it's all within
07:20one, which really mirrors what we've seen in the mortgage industry over the last 10 years, right?
07:25It's like bringing it together and so that people can review at the same time. So you're not waiting
07:30on one person and then the next person. So is that how you feel like you've seen the most,
07:34you know, time savings? I think that's where the most accountability has come from. And Sarah,
07:40if you forgive a story, you know, when I became new mayor here, my phone was ringing off the hook
07:45with people who are like, you've got to help me. I'm in purgatory over in the permit department.
07:49You know, please help me out, right? Literally like voicemail box full. Fast forward today,
07:55I don't get those calls anymore. And that really is the end result of all of the innovations that
07:59we've put in place. But where tech really came in is that over time, Sarah, as we improved
08:03our tracking software, what I able to see pretty quickly was that those calls, the half the time,
08:10that was their fault, not the city's fault. And so our ability now to show people, hey,
08:15this is where it's pending. You were sent these plans for review your own self. Like we commented and
08:20sent them back to you. That's been sitting in your queue or more than likely your contract.
08:25Your architect's queue. Maybe you should go see them. You know, it's very common to fall into
08:29the trope that, you know, city hall is the one that's causing you the trouble. You know, really,
08:34again, by half the time, it's not us. And clarifying that, I've had more than a few people say,
08:39you know, I apologize. I will get right back to you. And basically, you're just troubleshooting.
08:44You're figuring out where the pinch point is in solving it. A lot of times it is on our side
08:48of the
08:48fence, but it wasn't always this time. And our tech has been able to show that. And I think the
08:51end result
08:52is everyone's working with more urgency. And I like that because this problem of housing affordability
08:58is urgent. And everyone, public and private sector, need to act accordingly.
09:03So let's talk about NIMBYism, right? Which is the bane of everyone's existence if you're trying to
09:08build, and especially if you're trying to get new housing into a place like San Diego. So how do you
09:14combat that? And was there any pushback on these particular, like on that executive order from
09:19people who are like, no, we don't want more building? Yeah, I mean, there's always that. But
09:25Sarah, what I've learned over a fairly long career in public office is that every one of my elections
09:30has come down to the issue of housing, in part because that's what I'm here to do. But generally
09:34speaking, I've run against a candidate that is opposed to housing. And so San Diegans have always
09:38been presented when they've had to consider my name on the ballot with either pro-housing candidate,
09:42me, or an anti-housing candidate. And every single time I've won, and usually by a fair amount,
09:47I say immodestly. But I share that just because I hope that other elected officials
09:51can feel more confident when they want to do the right thing, which is to build more homes that
09:56people can afford. And listen, the people who show up at City Hall at two o'clock for a hearing
10:02about a project are generally going to be the people opposed to the project, particularly when
10:06you talk about homes that normal people can afford, because normal people are working a job or taking
10:11care of their kids. They're not going to come down and give comment, right? So I think we have to
10:15really be cognizant of who all we're talking about. And it isn't just the public commenters. It's not
10:20just the organized community groups. Listen, they have important input and we have to listen. I work
10:25for them as well. But ultimately, what I've really experienced throughout my career is that people
10:29generally are opposed to a project until it gets built. And then they find out that they like the
10:33coffee shop there, or they go shopping there, or their kid works there, or maybe their kid got off the
10:37couch and moved in there. And now they have that room to do what they want with, right? So I
10:41just,
10:42I have a level of confidence in the general public's understanding that someone built their home and
10:48that their kids want a home of their own too, and that they generally speaking, a majority at least
10:52will, or more than a majority will support it. So that's been a thing. I don't want to suggest that
10:56it's not a challenge, but I think you have to stay really focused on what your outcomes are. And when
11:01you're building more homes, when you see the prices starting to be reduced, and when you start seeing
11:07less homelessness, I think that even the most skeptical of NIMBYs can understand that those
11:13are performance indicators that everyone really should support.
11:18You know, so I live in Texas, obviously, an epicenter of a building of all sorts. And part
11:23of that is we just have a ton of land. And I live in a new build community that used
11:27to be a cow pasture.
11:28Nobody put up any resistance to building homes there. There was nothing there already.
11:34What kind of housing are you seeing most of? Is it infill? Is it affordable? Is it like, what does
11:40it look
11:40like in San Diego? It is largely infill. It's largely apartments. It's largely for rent. And I said at the
11:47beginning, really, we need everything. We have a lot of policies here that help to incentivize and encourage
11:52deed-restricted affordable. But we see a lot of market rate apartments coming online. And that's where we're seeing
12:00those numbers of really doubling from, you know, in the course of my lifetime. You know, we were
12:04generally doing about 4,000 new home permits a year. You know, we got close to 10,000 two years
12:09ago. Last year, we were above eight, almost nine. And so when you double your production, you know,
12:15you start to have the market respond. And, but I say that to say, Sarah, that while we don't have,
12:21you know, large cow pastures, we do have some farms in the city of San Diego, believe it or not.
12:25But
12:25that land is not buildable upon. So it's mostly transit oriented infill development. What I want
12:32your listeners and viewers to know is that we need to work harder on for sale product. And that's one
12:39that we're trying to address through an initiative I call Neighborhood Homes for All of Us. It's kind
12:43of modeled on something very similar to what I've seen in Austin, where you're seeing lots be subdivided
12:48into more single family home opportunities. I really want to find ways to incentivize condo
12:53construction, really give people that chance. If we can get them stabilized, you know, in a rental
12:57situation, well, let's get them to that next rung of housing, that first time home ownership
13:01opportunity. That policy is marking its way through our process now. And my hope is that we can get that
13:07underway so that we really are seeing production at the subsidized level, the shelter level, at the
13:13rental level, and at the for sale level. What's your, what's your personal goal here as far as like,
13:18you know, do you have a like, I want to see this many units built in this amount of
13:22time? Or what does that look like for you? Well, so in part, that's set by the state of
13:26California, we have our numbers that the state issues us, the city of San Diego's is to build
13:31108,000 new homes over roughly eight year horizon. Now, that's very ambitious goal. But so that goal
13:39is set out to us by the state. What I would like to see is and forgive this quick story,
13:44Sarah, but
13:44when I was born in San Diego in 1978, the city was 700,000 people, we were building about 15
13:51,000 homes
13:52per year. As I mentioned a moment ago, more recently, last several decades, we've been doing
13:57less than 4,000 per year, but we've grown to 1.4, 1.5 million people. So we've doubled our
14:03population
14:04while reducing our new home production by two thirds. That's a perfect recipe for housing
14:09affordability crisis and homelessness crisis. So when you ask, what am I aiming for? Well, I want to get
14:14back to 15,000 per year. I think that that would get us in a place where we could hit
14:19the state's target,
14:21be more representative where we were at a time when we had growth and still came across as affordable
14:26to people like my grandparents who came to San Diego because of military service and then chose
14:30to stay in part because they could get a job and they could find housing they could afford. And
14:35right now I recognize and know that a lot of our service members who still come to San Diego wearing
14:39the uniform, when they discharge here, fewer of them are choosing to stay, not because they can't find a
14:44good job. There are a lot of good jobs here. They just can't find a place they can afford. And
14:47so my success
14:49looks like about 15,000 per year and average everyday working and middle-class people saying,
14:54you know what, I see a future for myself in the city of San Diego. We're not there yet,
14:57but we're certainly on a trajectory that gives me hope that we can get there.
15:01What kind of reaction have you gotten from developers and builders?
15:05I think they're really favorable. I mean, it's, but I also think it's true of the general public where,
15:10you know, some people grouse about the change in their community. And I understand that it's kind of
15:14human condition, right? We all claim that we want change, but then we see it and we maybe don't
15:18until we like it, right? But I think the reaction is that they appreciate the certainty of process
15:23I'm trying to create, no guarantee of outcome, but of a process and of timelines that really say,
15:28I'm willing to engage in this process. I understand the risky nature of investment,
15:34right? And I also acknowledge that those dollars can go anywhere. They don't have to come to the
15:38city of San Diego. They can go to another jurisdiction. My goal is to make sure that I'm an attractive
15:43investment, that the jobs that they want to create, that the housing that my folks can afford to live,
15:49is going to be made more likely if I make the process very transparent and clear that I, you
15:54know, take the risk and I try and minimize it, at least on my side of the equation, as much
15:58as
15:58possible. I can't control for private property rights. I can't control for private financing,
16:03but I can say that, you know, if you submit something that conforms with our code, I'll get
16:07you an answer within 30 days. And what I found is that those folks really are responding and they
16:13will often come to my office and say, well, we were considering a project in another city,
16:16but we just didn't have the certainty that you're providing. And so I'm going to invest in your
16:21city. And that makes me feel very good. I, uh, being, you know, I may be the president of the
16:25U.S. Conference of Mayors. I love my colleagues, but we are in a friendly competition with one
16:28another and I am very interested in winning. I love that. What have you learned in this process
16:34that you would pass on to another mayor that's like just starting? Maybe, maybe they don't have
16:39this in place. Um, when they look and, and you could start anywhere. Why did you start
16:43where you started? And what did you learn along the way? I've learned a whole lot. And that's
16:48saying something, cause I got my start in housing. I've served as a housing commissioner, the chair
16:51of our city's housing committee. I served in the housing committee in the state legislature.
16:54I know this issue pretty well, but I've learned a lot. And what I do tell fellow mayors, uh,
16:59through my participation in the conference of mayors, you know, I get to work with a lot of them.
17:03I have a lot of new, uh, colleagues that were elected the other day, and I look forward to,
17:07uh, talking to them about this. But I think first off is that I would like to have mayors understand
17:14their housing permit numbers the same way they understand their crime stats. You know, a sad
17:19truth of my job is that, you know, just how many people were murdered in your city in a single
17:23year.
17:23It's a, it's a number that's burned into your brain and that you work on every single day. Um,
17:29and I want housing to be something similar. It's a priority. It's one that, you know, by heart
17:33and that you can look to your staff and say, why is it taking seven months to process this
17:39particular permit? Why are we charging this much for a water heater permit, right? Like when you
17:44understand that stuff in the way that when I issued that executive order, it was made very clear to
17:48all involved what my expectations were and they responded to their immense credit. So I think
17:53mayors need to be deeply involved. I think you need to understand what, you know, what is measured,
17:57you know, gets, gets done. And I would start there. I think beyond that, I would encourage mayors to be,
18:03um, uh, fearless in this work. Um, yes, there are, uh, uh, detractors. There are people who don't
18:08want to see new home development. Um, but I think I'm living proof that, that, you know,
18:14you can still be successful in this work while pursuing it. Uh, and then, uh, lastly, I would
18:19talk to, uh, really everyone, everyone has a point of view, but I think understanding that you can
18:25create the circumstances where people want to, uh, invest in your city and in an environment where
18:30inflation is high, interest rates are high. Um, there's not enough resources to go around. You
18:35really do need to be competitive in this space. And you believe it or not, you have the levers at
18:39your disposal to decide whether or not you're going to be, uh, a good investment or a not good
18:43investment. Um, the capital is limited. The jobs are only so many, and we're all in competition.
18:49San Diego famously kind of always thought of itself as competing against Los Angeles because
18:52we're sort of rivals in the same corner of the country, but we're competing with cities all
18:57around the globe. Uh, and if we don't set our policies up to really understand and respond to
19:01that, uh, we will not have the investment, the opportunity, um, the, the attractiveness for
19:07folks like your children to come to our city and build a better life for themselves. And, uh,
19:13so, uh, I think that mayors may sometimes underestimate how much control they have over
19:18the situation and how much they can help influence whether or not someone, uh, can have a rental
19:22price that they can afford, whether or not they can see a future in your city, whether or not
19:26they want to raise a family in your town. And, uh, I want to create the circumstances where it's a
19:30free country. You can live wherever you want, but if you want to choose San Diego, that will
19:33help you be successful here. Let's talk for a minute about the kind of leadership that you
19:38needed to show to your own team and bring people who are in a city government, um, who may not,
19:43you
19:44know, be used to like the private sector, like how, how fast things work, um, the, the pace of all
19:49that, and also what the expectations are. What did that look like for, for how you had to lead them?
19:55Yeah, that's a thing. Um, and I think we have extraordinary employees. I think the vast
20:00majority of public servants really are here to do the best that they possibly can. I think the
20:05truth is, is sometimes it's not clear to them what the priority is, and they're often not resourced to
20:10actually be able to do that, even if they do know what it is. In my particular case, I listen,
20:14I share these kudos that we're getting from Bloomberg at Philanthropies and others, uh, with an
20:19incredible team of women. Actually, I have, uh, women who lead our, uh, permitting department,
20:24our planning department, our economic development department, and they're extraordinary leaders.
20:28They're just talented leaders that when you give them direction and the resources to get the job
20:32done, they get the job done. Now they oversee hundreds of employees amongst the three departments
20:36that kind of touch this work. But, you know, again, I, I found that, you know, when we set the
20:42expectation and move toward it, they'll do it again. You know, that, that 30 day executive order,
20:47that was not well received on day one. Um, but this team got, they understood that what the
20:52expectation was and they got the job done. Um, and, you know, I think that anyone who knows me
20:59knows that housing is going to be the priority and that, you know, I get those, I have the dashboards
21:04and I have the monthly reports and the quarterly reports and the annual, biggest day for me is our
21:07annual housing report. I love it. It's like Christmas morning to crack that thing open and see
21:11what our permit numbers were for the year and how we matched our state responsibilities and how we
21:15did against other jurisdictions. Um, I think what we have as a team, it's unified and understanding
21:19that we are here to try and make life more affordable for our residents. And that starts
21:24with the biggest expense, which is housing. And so, um, those annual permit numbers, how
21:28that we're now getting greedy, right? We're looking at, okay, where is that on the housing
21:31ladder? If you will, you know, how much of that is the top of the ladder? How much is the
21:34bottom? Ooh, we have still some work to do in the middle for that middle income housing.
21:38So we, we are getting more and more granular. And what I have is a team that understands
21:43and is responsive to it. And I credit the department directors, uh, their boss, uh, who's
21:47extraordinary as well. We are a team that understands that we need to build more housing in order
21:52for people to be able to afford to live in our city. Um, and that unified goal along with
21:56the, I should say the support of our city council, a lot of this stuff requires their, their
21:59authorization and they've been willing to do it. What I hope is comes out of it is that
22:03we're a city that's aligned on this issue. We have different priorities, different opinions
22:06amongst the city council and myself, but there's not a lot of daylight between us when it comes
22:11to saying, listen, you should be able to afford to live here if you work hard.
22:14Mayor, thank you so much for coming on. Obviously you're doing an incredible job that is inspiring
22:18other mayors. And I mean, it's one of the reasons you guys are, are one of the key cities
22:23that Bloomberg highlighted when it was like, it rolled out this, uh, grant program to cities.
22:29I think it's $750,000 to resource some cities who want to do some of the things that you've done.
22:34Um, so congratulations on that. And thank you so much for sitting down and talking with us.
22:39Thank you for helping me spread the word to other cities. We can all do this. We can build
22:43more housing that people can afford.

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