00:00You can get LeBron back for Jared Allen or, I don't even want to do this because I think
00:05I know what you're going to do, Jalen Brown for Evan Mobley.
00:07Which one are you choosing?
00:11Ooh.
00:12Oh, I did, I thought you were just going to do the Brown for Mobley thing.
00:15That's spicy.
00:16That's the only kind of thing I do here.
00:18Spicy.
00:18I don't think you understand how much appreciation I have for LeBron.
00:24Wow.
00:26Wow.
00:27I would probably do Mobley for Brown.
00:28I think Brown at this stage right now is a better player than LeBron.
00:33But that's close.
00:34I think LeBron for Allen probably bumps up your ceiling more than going from Mobley to Brown.
00:42Yeah, because you have an unrealistic view of Evan Mobley at basketball.
00:46I think that's your opinion.
00:47And I think maybe, by the way, I think you have the unrealistic opinion of Evan Mobley.
00:55And I can tell that by the interest in Evan Mobley around the NBA.
00:59Like, I think you're in line with how people in Cleveland feel about Evan.
01:05But people around the NBA are willing to trade Jalen Brown, one of like 10 guys who can do what
01:11he does at the most important position in the NBA, in their prime.
01:16I think that tells you how Evan Mobley's seen around the NBA.
01:20Yeah, I don't think anybody's debating how he's seen around the NBA.
01:23But here's the difference.
01:25Boston hasn't watched him every single day for his entire career.
01:29So you think Boston, who's one of the smartest organizations...
01:31They're smart, but they don't know everything about him.
01:33We're pulling the wool over their eyes?
01:35I don't think it's that.
01:36It's just they don't have the same kind of information.
01:39They don't have the same kind of knowledge.
01:41Sometimes when you're a team from afar, you're willing to take more of a chance on somebody.
01:47And you tell yourself the same thing all the time.
01:50What does it look like with him in our system?
01:53Him surrounded by our players?
01:55If we give him these opportunities, you can always tell yourself those kinds of things.
02:00And teams do it all the time.
02:02How many teams traded for DeMarcus Cousins and said,
02:04Hey, we're going to get him here, and he's going to be on his best behavior,
02:08and it's going to be different here.
02:09But who were the teams that did that?
02:11Because I think this is important.
02:13It was the Pelicans.
02:15It was teams like that who are not seen amongst the smartest organizations in the NBA.
02:20Who are the two teams I've heard linked to Evan Mobley?
02:23It's the Thunder and it's the Celtics.
02:24Yeah, but the bigger point is that from afar, you don't see the same flaws.
02:30You're not privy to the same flaws.
02:32You're not privy to his personality.
02:34All of those kinds of things.
02:35You don't see him working behind the scenes.
02:37So you're willing to take more of a chance on him and assume that those things aren't going to be
02:44the same in your place, around your players.
02:46I also think there's something to be said about being too close to a player where you start to just
02:51assume the negatives
02:52because you put preset expectations on that kid, and because he's not there yet, all of a sudden, well, he's
03:00not a bust.
03:01Nobody's calling him that.
03:02He'll never be something that I think it's incredibly premature to sign him off.
03:07Or sign off for him.
03:09That's what I meant to say.
03:10I got there eventually.
03:11I don't think anybody's writing him off, though.
03:13I mean, when you say he's not going to get to where we thought he could be, I think that's
03:17writing him off.
03:18I don't think so.
03:19I think if you say this is as good as he's going to get, that's writing him off in the
03:23name of then moving him for another player,
03:26saying, well, this is who he's going to be.
03:28Go get that guy.
03:29I think there are conversations that we have where multiple things can be true.
03:34And I think it's okay to look at Evan and say, you know, to this point, he hasn't reached the
03:41expectations.
03:42And I think at this point, it's fair to question whether he will based on how limited he is as
03:48an offensive player.
03:50Nobody's debating that he's not an elite defensive player.
03:54He's a unicorn on defense.
03:55He does things on defense that make your jaw drop.
03:59And he's one of the most impactful defensive players in the entire NBA.
04:03But offensively, he has a long way to go.
04:06And there just isn't evidence in the first five years that he can get to that point offensively
04:12or that he has made the strides to give him the benefit of the doubt that it is actually going
04:19to happen.
04:19The only thing that he has improved on, slightly, slightly, is his three-point shot.
04:24But why don't we ask ourselves, why has this stalled?
04:28But why don't we ask ourselves, why has this stalled at every single step of his career?
04:33Why do we answer questions with questions?
04:36Because here's the thing.
04:38And I don't want to say that I've made a definitive conclusion on what Evan can be ultimately.
04:44But not everybody's an alpha.
04:46Okay?
04:47Not everybody's Batman.
04:48Not everybody's Robin.
04:50Some people are Alfred.
04:51And that's how they make their career.
04:54And it doesn't mean that they're bad players.
04:56But it just means the type of game that they have does not allow them to be a certain something
05:03on the offensive end of the floor.
05:05As involved offensively.
05:07As much of a centerpiece offensively.
05:09As much of an offensive hub.
05:12And again, I don't know two, three, four years down the road if Evan will ever get to that point
05:20where he can be more like Robin or more like Batman.
05:23But he also is not an alpha.
05:25And he's never going to be an alpha.
05:27Talent dictates opportunities.
05:29It is fair.
05:30And you've said this a couple times.
05:31I'm judging him what I think he can become.
05:34But my question then always becomes how can we get him in the best position to be that?
05:40And have the Cavs put him in the best position to be that?
05:43I think the answer to that last question is no.
05:46And I'm not faulting them because they wanted to take an organizational jump.
05:50And they have.
05:51So from where they were, from where Evan was drafted to now, we are light years ahead.
05:56Totally understand that.
05:57But you are at this impasse with having to pay Donovan within the next 12 months.
06:02With a team that has a championship window which feels like now as opposed to three years from now.
06:08And it does feel like a window that can close within those next two years.
06:13I do think there's a natural point here where it makes sense to say everything that you're saying.
06:18Can we get him there?
06:20Will he get there?
06:21How does that happen?
06:22Is he an Alfred?
06:23Is he a Batman?
06:24Is he a Robin?
06:24Where I maybe take umbrage with the conversation is it seems like the Cavs are only having that conversation with
06:32Evan and not with a guy who has elevated them to a big degree but not to the greatest degree.
06:38And I do think the Cavs are at an impasse.
06:41I think they've solved their impasse by talking amongst themselves and saying, well, it's Evan's impasse.
06:49It's not Evan and Donovan's impasse.
06:50I think it's an impasse for these two guys together.
06:54But I also think it's the organization, Nick, asking themselves the question about if we took Donovan Mitchell off this
07:02team, what are we?
07:05Because there is an understanding from that.
07:08At the very least, whether you think they can compete for a championship or not, at the very least, they
07:14have seen a Donovan Mitchell-led team get to the conference finals.
07:18And that is something to celebrate.
07:21That can be success.
07:22That is an accomplishment, especially given where this organization came from.
07:27And there was no guarantee that they were going to get out of the rebuild.
07:30And there was no guarantee that they were going to pull themselves out of the LeBron James rubble and find
07:35a player like Donovan.
07:37So I think the Cavs, I think they're looking at it and they're saying, at the very least, with Donovan,
07:45we can be this.
07:46We can be a conference finalist.
07:48And that's a pretty good place to be.
07:50Yeah.
07:51And I think when they ask themselves, if we took Donovan Mitchell out of the equation, what can we be?
07:57And I don't think they like the answer to that.
08:00Well, I think it's, what do you replace Donovan with?
08:03And I think that's, so I think just because you've gotten to this place with Donovan, it doesn't mean there's
08:09upward mobility on a Donovan-led team.
08:12Or even Donovan as your second best player if you're subtracting other pieces around him.
08:17I think that's where I'm at.
08:18It's like, I get it.
08:20Like, there's a risk here.
08:22If you were to trade, and I'm just going to say this specifically one because I don't know what's on
08:25the table,
08:25but if you trade Donovan for Jalen, there's a risk here that you alter the chemistry, that you don't get
08:31that much better.
08:32But those are the kind of moves that you make that you have to attempt to get better as opposed
08:39to, I think, basically saying,
08:43in the next two years, you've got to win a championship with Brown, Harden, and Mitchell.
08:47And I don't know that because of the complications on how those guys are going to play together,
08:52I don't know how much better you actually get.
08:55I don't think the Cavs are actually entertaining trading Evan.
09:00So I feel like there is a small sample of players that could become available that they would actually say
09:08yes to in an Evan Mobley trade.
09:11But the reason why I continue to talk more about Evan and making him available versus Donovan
09:18is because one player is a better, more complete, more polished, and more ready player
09:26for what it is the Cavs are trying to attain than the other one.
09:31There are fewer questions about Donovan Mitchell than there are about Evan Mobley.
09:36It's just the way it is.
09:37And it doesn't mean that Donovan doesn't have questions.
09:41He does have questions.
09:42There are legitimate questions that every organization that's about to invest $70 million in,
09:47they have to ask themselves those questions.
09:49But there are still fewer questions about Donovan than there are about Evan.
09:53I think the questions you have about Donovan are answered.
09:56Is he going to be a good defensive player?
09:59No.
09:59I think the main question is, do you believe that you can be a winning basketball team
10:05and a team that is in the championship conversation with him as your best player?
10:10And that has been answered.
10:11It is yes.
10:12I don't think the Cavs...
10:13Now, can they win a championship?
10:14That's a completely different question.
10:17I think they weren't in the championship conversation this year.
10:21They were one of four teams remaining.
10:23Because there have to be, like, two teams remaining in a conference, Chris.
10:26They got swept by the Knicks, and they clearly...
10:30We can't just downplay getting to the conference finals.
10:33We can't.
10:34Do you and I agree that the Pistons were fraudulent?
10:37Yes, of course.
10:37Okay.
10:38Yeah, they took you to seven games, Chris.
10:40All right.
10:40So, a team that none of us respect took you to seven games,
10:45and that's the accomplishment, is getting past them?
10:48Because it's not them turning around and getting your ass beat by the Knicks.
10:52No, that was a terrible series for them.
10:54And so, and just so we're clear, you can say,
10:56hey, that's the first time we've done this without LeBron since 1992.
10:59You can celebrate that.
11:00Yes.
11:01It doesn't mean you have to linger on it.
11:02It doesn't mean you have to be beholden to it.
11:04I don't think it's about lingering on it.
11:06I think it's about being honest about what the team can accomplish
11:10with Donovan as its best player versus what the team can accomplish
11:15with a flawed, offensively challenged Evan Mobley as their best player.
11:19Evan, but in neither scenario is Evan going to be your best player.
11:23Right?
11:24Like, Evan's going to continue to be who he is and hopefully more than that.
11:29That's the hope, isn't it?
11:31I think we're dancing around the real question, which is, are you cap—
11:34Isn't that like the number one thing that can change the equation for the Cavs?
11:38No, I think upgrading over Donovan Mitchell can change the equation.
11:42I think the difference between Donovan and Jalen is significant
11:46because of the position that one plays and the other doesn't,
11:50because of their size, because of the defense.
11:52Like, you call Donovan a more complete player than Evan.
11:55No, I disagree.
11:56Both guys have significant holes in their game.
12:00Donovan has natural holes because he's 6'2", 6'3",
12:04and is a combo guard with some efficiency issues.
12:07He's a tremendous scorer.
12:09He's a really good shooter.
12:12I think he's a fine facilitator.
12:14I don't think he's a great facilitator.
12:15Beyond that, there are holes within his game.
12:19Yes.
12:19And so I just—
12:20But he's also somebody who impacts winning at a high level,
12:24and he has for his entire career.
12:26I think he's won a lot of regular season games.
12:28I don't think he's impacted winning at a high level in the postseason.
12:31He just took the Cavs to the conference finals.
12:35He took them to the semifinals two years in a row.
12:38I forgot that's why we traded for Donovan.
12:40It's not.
12:41To get to the second round.
12:42Obviously, the ultimate goal is a championship,
12:44and they haven't gotten to that point yet.
12:46And they're not there.
12:48They're not on the level of New York and Oklahoma City and San Antonio.
12:51But we can't ignore the other things that Donovan has led this franchise to.
12:56You're not ignoring it.
12:57You can appreciate it while saying, is there a way to get better with and without Donovan?
13:04And all I'm saying—and this is—I really do—I don't think we're that far apart from in our conversations.
13:10All I'm saying is, if I have to do this with Evan, Jarrett, and James Harden,
13:15I have to do it with Donovan.
13:17And if they're not, they're treating Donovan like LeBron, which he isn't.
13:22You can appreciate everything Donovan has done.
13:25You can love Donovan.
13:26I'd love watching Donovan Mitchell.
13:28If the worst thing I get to say about next year is I get to watch those four dudes go
13:32out there and play for my favorite team,
13:33I'll be the happiest son of a gun in the world.
13:36But this is a unique opportunity.
13:38And I'll be honest with you.
13:39I might trade Donovan for less people than I would for Evan.
13:43I can maybe be a little bit more creative in trade packages with Evan.
13:47With Donovan, if I look at Jalen and say, this guy's so much of what Donovan isn't, and that's no
13:53slight to Donovan,
13:55this might be the one scenario where I can envision moving off this guy for everything that he's done.
14:01And I think some of that is where he's at in his career, but some of that's just how you're
14:06built.
14:07I think the whole point, if the Cavs are trying to make significant upgrades and get better,
14:14I think the whole point is to find a better complementary piece alongside Donovan.
14:20Not either or type situation.
