- 6 weeks ago
The big focus of this episode of To The Point is on Assam's 'Hall Of Shame' campaign to tackle public urination and littering, which has sparked a civic sense debate.
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00:00Kreeti, you're watching To The Point. I am Kreeti Chowdhury.
00:03About 12 years ago, from the ramparts of the Red Port, the Prime Minister had pleaded to the civic conscience
00:09of this country.
00:1012 years down, is it time to impose civic conscience on this country?
00:15Because, viewers, India has a lot of good things going for it.
00:19But civic sense is clearly not our strongest suit.
00:22I'll tell you exactly why. Allow me to take you through the headlines first.
00:30Amidst maternal health SOS, relentless coverage forces Rajasthan government to act.
00:35Statewide five-day intensive health screening campaign launched for all pregnant women.
00:44Political face-off escalates over Tahir Hussain's conviction.
00:47Delhi Chief Minister Rekha Gupta demands answers from our Madhmi party.
00:52Kejriwal hits back, asks, didn't Tahir join BJP-linked party?
01:02India Today interview causes rift in Punjab.
01:05BJP Union Minister Rabneet Bittu sought proof for 25,000 missing bodies.
01:10BJP Neta slams Bittu, says stay near limits.
01:13Government sources say film was released on OTT illegally.
01:21Latent heat once again mounts on Sameh Rehna.
01:24Supreme Court comes down heavily on the comedian, says Sameh has violated orders and taken the court for a ride.
01:30Three-lack fine also imposed on comedian.
01:38Indian sailor killed in Iranian strikes in Hormuz.
01:41Tehran says UAE vessels ignored warnings.
01:44NAA summits Iranian deputy chief of mission, lodges strong protest.
02:04All right, let's quickly begin with the latest news break coming in.
02:08Shiv Sena, Eknath Chinde faction, Neta Ramesh Matre, has got bailed despite of how he behaved with the doctors.
02:16Matre was held for assaulting doctors and nurses, but days later, the Shiv Sena, Neta, Matre has got bailed.
02:24He's been granted bail on 50,000 cash bond.
02:28He had, when he was arrested, had said that he was sick.
02:32He was taken to a hospital, taken into arrest, and now he's been given bail.
02:37I want to connect right now to get the latest from my colleague, Devesh Singh, who's joining us.
02:43Devesh, what more can you add?
02:46Well, Titi, Ramesh Matre was arrested last Wednesday for assaulting doctors at the Chastainagar Municipal Hospital in Dombi, Willi.
02:53He was arrested.
02:55After that, he complained of chest pain, deathlessness, and he was hospitalized at the Thane civil hospital.
03:01A day later, he was introduced in Quod, where the court reminded him to be vaccinated on the 13th of
03:07July.
03:07Right now, again, he's been hospitalized, complaining about his health.
03:13And that is why his counsel sought bail for Ramesh Matre after he was sent to magistral custody.
03:20The court has now, hearing the pay from the defense, has granted him bail, granted Ramesh Matre bail on a
03:26bond of Rs. 50,000.
03:29Thank you for that quick update.
03:32We're going to keep a keen eye on all developments on that story, viewers, and let's now cut across to
03:37the other story that we've been tracking very closely.
03:40News that filtered in from Assam Tinsukhia municipality yesterday.
03:45Where it comes down to civic sense, it was welcome with what really happened in Assam.
03:51Well, to take you through that, Assam Tinsukhia has now adopted a new strategy to curb public urination and littering
03:58by displaying alleged offenders on public LED screens as part of its Hall of Shame campaign.
04:05The initiative has now sparked a wider debate with calls to replicate the model in other cities.
04:11You already have Maharashtra, Milind Diora from Maharashtra, asking the BMC to adopt it, calls from other cities also.
04:18That it's high time we start imposing not a fine as well on public urination, but also publicly naming and
04:27shaming those who are caught being in public.
04:30Here's a report on how civic bodies across India are experimenting with different ways to tackle the problem.
04:36But as a society, are we hard enough on what is rampant endemic that India is facing where it comes
04:45down to public urination?
04:46Not quite.
04:53What's a bigger deterrent than a fine?
04:56Public humiliation.
04:58That's the message from Assam's Tinsukhia, where the municipality has come up with a new way to tackle littering and
05:04public urination.
05:05A giant LED screen that publicly identifies alleged offenders.
05:11Officials call it the Hall of Shame.
05:13Rajya Sabha MP Milind Diora wants Mumbai's civic body to adopt the same model.
05:19Unless we name shame and fine people, I do not believe that we will be able to instill civic sense
05:26in our country.
05:27In my opinion, if we want to instill civic sense, I think we should take inspiration from what Tinsukhia and
05:35Assam has done and look at implementing this across our cities.
05:38But Mumbai-ker's aren't quite on the same page.
05:59And Assam isn't the only one trying unconventional methods.
06:03Earlier, the Mysore City Corporation installed mirrors along a wall near the suburban bus stand to discourage public urination.
06:11The idea was simple.
06:14If people could see themselves while committing the act, they might think twice.
06:19Across India, civic bodies have experimented with different ways to tackle the problem.
06:27In Delhi, public urination and defecation can attract a Rs. 500 fine.
06:32Under National Green Tribunal directions, the penalty can go up to Rs. 5,000.
06:38Mumbai imposes a Rs. 500 fine for public urination.
06:43Bengaluru has penalties ranging from Rs. 500 to Rs. 1,000.
06:46And in West Bengal, the new BJP government has announced a Rs. 200 fine for urinating in public places.
06:55But Tinsukhia's move raises a larger question.
06:59When awareness campaigns don't work and fines fail to deter,
07:03is public shaming the next logical step?
07:07Bureau Report, India Today.
07:17All right, joining me right now is Shiv Sena, Rajya Sabha MP, Mr. Milind Diora,
07:22who wants now BMC to implement a SAMS name and shame public urinators model.
07:27Mr. Diora, thank you for taking the time out and joining us this evening.
07:31You've been rather vocal about what is not just a hygiene issue, civic issue, cultural issue, gender issue.
07:37But what's your take, sir?
07:40My view is that I think that the time has come now where we cannot sit back and wait for
07:45us as Indians,
07:47and I say this about myself as a citizen of India,
07:50to have a civic sense that is needed to keep our cities clean, to keep our villages clean,
07:56to ensure that we do not allow diseases to spread,
08:01to ensure that we attract tourists from around the world that bring in dollars,
08:05that help strengthen our rupee. I think the time has come now where we have to take,
08:09we have to initiate strong measures.
08:12And what one saw happening in a municipality in Assam,
08:17where habitual people who habitually urinate in public
08:21will be named and shamed and hopefully fined as well on public LED screens.
08:26I think this is the model which perhaps we sadly need to implement in cities across the country,
08:32not just in Mumbai.
08:32Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to ask you, what is habitual urinators?
08:38I don't know.
08:38Well, I think that people who, perhaps there's a graded way of dealing with these things,
08:47but perhaps if we, the fact is that civic sense in India is low,
08:52is woefully low compared to other countries.
08:54And the fact is that many Indians who, when they're in their own country,
08:57they litter very easily.
08:59They spit on public roads.
09:01They would urinate in public places.
09:03But when they go abroad, they'd walk a kilometer or two to throw trash in the bin
09:07to find the nearest public toilet.
09:09So I think we have to now,
09:11the onus certainly is on the municipalities across the country
09:14to ensure that we have adequate bins,
09:17we have adequate public toilets that are clean, accessible, safe,
09:20especially for women and senior citizens.
09:22And then we must have a strong enforcement mechanism,
09:26which includes a method of fines, imposing hefty fines,
09:31and a methodology of perhaps naming and shaming people.
09:35So until we do that,
09:36I don't believe that we will have the kind of civic sense that you find in,
09:40not just in Western countries,
09:42but even in relatively new countries like in the Middle East.
09:45You know, Mr. Deera, you have a point which should be heard
09:49because if we are waiting for India now to develop a civic conscience,
09:53that's not coming.
09:54Now it has to be enforced at some level.
09:57But I'll come down to what's the onus that the states take
10:01and the administration where public toilets and facilities are there.
10:05But I want to come back to the point,
10:07because even though there is an acute lack of civic infrastructure
10:12in our countries, in our cities, all across the country,
10:17yet you do not see women publicly urinating like men do.
10:21Now you can look at it as a cultural context,
10:23a civic context, or even a pure gender context.
10:26But why do you think this happens?
10:28Look, again, I don't want to just get into, you know,
10:31people using the toilets, not using a toilet, a public toilet,
10:35but the civic sense is a much larger issue.
10:38As I said, it could be something as simple as spitting on the road.
10:41It could be something as simple as littering on the road.
10:43It could be something as simple as violating a traffic signal.
10:46I mean, basically, the fact is now there is,
10:49and has been for several decades,
10:52a culture that it doesn't matter.
10:55We as Indians, unfortunately, many Indians,
10:58think that, you know, I can get away.
11:00And the law isn't strong enough.
11:02It's not going to be enforced as strongly enough
11:04as it is, let's say, if I go to Dubai,
11:06or if I go to Singapore, if I go to a Western country,
11:09or many other second world countries.
11:11It doesn't just have to be a first world country.
11:13And I think it's time for municipalities, as I said,
11:17for panchayats as well, to crack the whip,
11:18and to demonstrate political will,
11:21and to show that this time around,
11:23we are extremely serious.
11:24I actually spoke about, for example,
11:26in the backdrop of what's happening in West Asia,
11:28and the pressure it puts on the Indian rupee,
11:31and the fact that we have to import
11:32a large portion of our oil for our energy needs.
11:36You know, a very good way to strengthen our rupee
11:39and to bring in dollars
11:40is to attract more foreign tourists.
11:42We attract a woefully small number of foreign tourists
11:44compared to many other countries in the world
11:46that are much, much smaller than us.
11:47And one of the reasons that foreign tourists have cited
11:50that they don't like traveling to India,
11:51and they prefer going to other Southeast destinations,
11:53is because of the lack of cleanliness.
11:55This is something Mahatma Gandhi taught us,
11:57that cleanliness is next to godliness.
11:59And how do you enforce cleanliness?
12:01How do you ensure that?
12:02The Prime Minister, 12 years ago,
12:05initiated a very welcome campaign
12:06called the Swachh Bharat campaign.
12:08I welcomed it at the time.
12:09I still think it's a very noble initiative
12:11to build public toilets.
12:13Massive amounts of funds were given to state governments
12:15to build public toilets.
12:17There was also an attempt to instill civic sense among people,
12:21not to litter.
12:22But I think now that there's an expiry date to that,
12:25and I think now it's time for us to crack the whip
12:26to get very harsh on people who do this.
12:30So basically, Mr. Deera, what you're saying is,
12:31what started about a decade ago,
12:34maybe somebody who lit us once,
12:35maybe someone who does something wrong,
12:37who violates something once,
12:38maybe there's a fine and they let away with it,
12:40maybe a warning and then a fine.
12:41But if it happens habitually,
12:43and someone has done it, let's say, twice or thrice,
12:46then I do believe naming and shaming
12:47is extremely important.
12:49But, you know, Mr. Deera,
12:50what most wouldn't understand is
12:52what really identifies as a habitual urinator
12:55or somebody who habitually, you know, litters.
12:59A fine is a fine,
13:00and it needs to happen at two levels.
13:02Again, I think you're getting too technical.
13:06I don't think it matters about habitually
13:09or whether it's once or twice or thrice.
13:11Right.
13:11The point I'm trying to make is that
13:14we have to clean up our cities and our villages
13:17and clean up our country.
13:18And to do that, we have to instill civic sense.
13:21And we cannot wait for people now.
13:23We've waited long enough in 75 years of our history.
13:26I don't think civic sense is going to happen
13:28automatically, organically.
13:30It has to be enforced.
13:31I don't think a country like the United Arab Emirates
13:34or many of the Middle Eastern countries
13:36have done this by asking citizens
13:39to not litter on the streets.
13:40They've done this because if you violate the law
13:43and they take littering very, very seriously.
13:45In a country like Singapore,
13:47littering, spitting in public
13:48is taken extremely seriously.
13:50I think not just me, Mr. Deera.
13:51There will be many out there
13:52who would be very, very glad
13:54that you have somebody
13:55who is a parliamentarian
13:57who's bringing up something as basic as this
14:00which is so, so needed in this country.
14:02So, and in that level, kudos to you
14:05that you're really doing it
14:06because you're actually speaking
14:08for thousands of people out there
14:09who at a level,
14:11no matter how proud we are of the country,
14:12there is a certain sense of shame
14:13when we see what really happens
14:15across streets, corners, cities.
14:19What do you reckon?
14:20Because if you're going to move
14:22from what was 10 years ago,
14:23an advisory that was issued
14:24by the Prime Minister,
14:25where Swach Bharat is concerned,
14:27and we're moving into the second phase
14:29which now you have to crack the whip.
14:30So at one level,
14:32you pay a financial penalty
14:34for littering or urinating in public
14:37or you also are named and shamed
14:40because in Madurai, for example,
14:42local municipalities have come up
14:44in their own way.
14:45There are colonies in Delhi,
14:46I know, who've come up
14:47with their own innovative way
14:48of actually putting glass and mirrors
14:52on sidewalks and walls
14:53so something like this
14:54doesn't quite happen.
14:57Absolutely.
14:57I mean, the only way that countries
14:59have solved this problem
15:00of instilling civic sense
15:02in its citizens
15:03is by a form of hefty fines,
15:07strong enforcement,
15:09and, you know,
15:10finally at the end,
15:11as a last resort,
15:12is perhaps naming and shaming.
15:14Of course, some countries
15:14go to other extremes as well.
15:16I mean, I'm not suggesting
15:18we go to the extremes
15:19that exist in certain countries
15:22which are far more draconian.
15:23But I certainly think,
15:25as I said,
15:25different municipalities
15:26can toy with different ideas,
15:27with different ranges,
15:29different grades of punishment.
15:30Do you think this should be for India,
15:32not just the BMC?
15:33Absolutely.
15:34I think this is for municipalities now
15:36to understand that
15:37this has nothing to do
15:38with the central government.
15:39This has nothing to do
15:40with the state government.
15:40The laws are already in place.
15:42This has now everything to do
15:43with local municipalities
15:44and panchayats.
15:45So I think at a local level now,
15:47enough is enough.
15:49If you want to compete,
15:50if, for example,
15:51let's say a state like Sikkim
15:53wants to compete
15:54and get foreign tourists
15:55instead of tourists going to Bhutan,
15:57in my opinion,
15:57Sikkim is as beautiful as Bhutan.
16:00One of the reasons
16:01we lose those tourists
16:02is because of that siklandliness.
16:04You have to enforce it
16:05at a local level.
16:06The same applies
16:06for every other part
16:07of the country.
16:09We have so much diversity
16:10in our country.
16:11We can attract tourists
16:13from all around the world.
16:14I'm going to ask you
16:14one final question,
16:16Mr. Deora,
16:16before we're going to let you go.
16:17Because yes,
16:18at a level,
16:19I think the onus lies
16:21with the citizens
16:22of this country.
16:23But the administrations,
16:25the municipalities,
16:26also have to shoulder
16:27some responsibility.
16:29Why I say that
16:30is when 10 years ago,
16:31the Prime Minister,
16:3212 years ago,
16:32when the Prime Minister
16:33spoke of Swachh Bharat,
16:35nobody really understood
16:36the concept of dustbins.
16:37And I think
16:38over the last 10 years,
16:40there has been
16:40a strange acceptance,
16:42not to the level
16:43that we'd hope
16:44it would have happened,
16:45but there are people
16:46who now intrinsically
16:48look for a dustbin
16:49and you can see
16:50and find dustbins.
16:51You don't see that
16:52with toilets.
16:53You don't see that
16:54with public convenience toilets,
16:57which are actually installed
16:58in public spaces,
17:00which people can actually use.
17:02And I would say it
17:03for a woman,
17:04because most men
17:05don't even need to look
17:06for a toilet in India
17:07and you know,
17:08they publicly urinate,
17:09but you just don't find one.
17:12Yeah.
17:13If you saw my tweet yesterday,
17:14I said exactly that.
17:15I said that municipalities
17:15also have to walk the talk
17:17and municipalities also
17:18have to build
17:18public infrastructure
17:19that's safe,
17:19that's accessible,
17:20that's affordable.
17:21If you're building
17:22a public toilet
17:22and you're charging
17:23people, citizens,
17:24it has to be affordable.
17:26Bins also have to be
17:26within a close proximity
17:28where people can go
17:29and access them
17:29and use them.
17:30So this is certainly
17:32the onus of the municipality.
17:33It's certainly
17:34the onus of the panchayat
17:35to ensure that you
17:36have that infrastructure.
17:37But, you know,
17:38there are also instances
17:40where an Indian
17:41who is in India,
17:42if there's a bin,
17:42let's say,
17:43100 meters away,
17:44they would rather throw
17:45garbage on the streets.
17:46But the minute
17:47they travel overseas,
17:48they'll walk 100 meters
17:49to throw that garbage
17:51somewhere else
17:52or they'll keep it
17:52in the bank
17:53that they're carrying
17:53and then later
17:54dispose of it.
17:55So, as I said,
17:56civic sense
17:57is a mentality
17:59that needs to be changed
18:01or the lack
18:01of civic sense.
18:02And this is something
18:03which we need to do.
18:04We need to change mindsets.
18:05The minute we change
18:06those mindsets,
18:07it won't happen immediately,
18:08but the minute
18:08we change those mindsets,
18:10not only will we
18:11as citizens react
18:12and be more careful
18:12in our own country,
18:14but we'll also
18:15force municipalities,
18:18we'll also force
18:19municipalities,
18:20we'll also force
18:20governments to respond,
18:22to build the kind
18:22of infrastructure
18:23we want.
18:23To make, for example,
18:25making toilets
18:25for people who have
18:27disabilities,
18:28for making toilets
18:28for women,
18:29for making toilets
18:29for senior citizens,
18:31for making them safe,
18:32for making them clean,
18:33for having bins,
18:34for example,
18:35segregating waste,
18:36dry and wet garbage,
18:37which is such a critical
18:38area in our cities.
18:40Today, a third of India
18:42lives in cities.
18:43That number is
18:43growing rapidly.
18:44We are one of the most,
18:45one of the fastest
18:46urbanizing economies
18:47in the world.
18:48If we don't fix our cities,
18:50and one critical element
18:51of our cities
18:52is the relationship
18:53between the citizen
18:54and the government
18:54and the municipality
18:55in terms of civic sense.
18:57If we don't fix that
18:58right now,
18:59we don't have the right
19:00value system right now,
19:01I fear that our cities,
19:03no matter how much
19:04infrastructure we have,
19:05will fail.
19:06True, that's already happening.
19:08These things have to go
19:09hand in hand.
19:09You have to have
19:10hard infrastructure,
19:11which is infrastructure,
19:12which is actual
19:12real infrastructure,
19:13roads, schools,
19:15hospitals, housing,
19:17affordable housing,
19:17but you also have
19:18to have soft infrastructure.
19:19You also have to
19:20create a culture
19:21that says that
19:22this is my city,
19:24that if I get out
19:25of my home
19:25and I litter on the streets,
19:26it doesn't mean
19:27I'm littering on
19:28some other planet
19:29somewhere else.
19:30It's my own city,
19:31it's my own home.
19:32And that culture
19:33has to be instilled
19:34in people,
19:34and I think for that now,
19:36it's time for us
19:37to take some very,
19:38very serious steps.
19:39You know,
19:39you're bang on,
19:40and thank you
19:40for saying it
19:41for how you have,
19:42Mr. Deera,
19:43very few parliamentarians
19:44who actually pick up
19:45issues that really matter
19:47and it's one such issue
19:48that you have picked up
19:49and I really hope
19:49your BMC hears it
19:51and municipalities
19:52across the country
19:53actually hear it
19:54because, you know,
19:55if you're going to be proud
19:55of your inheritance,
19:56which we should of India,
19:57we should also be willing
19:59to face our shortcomings
20:00and the acute lack
20:01of civic sense
20:02is a shortcoming
20:04that India has refused
20:05to face over decades.
20:06But thank you
20:07for saying it out loud
20:08and I really hope
20:08you bring it up
20:09in parliament
20:10and you speak of it
20:11and we can actually push
20:12for a certain amount
20:13of civic reform
20:14in this country.
20:14Thank you, sir,
20:15for taking the time.
20:16Appreciate it.
20:19All right,
20:19let's widen the debate.
20:21Joining me right now
20:22is Neeti Palta,
20:23stand-up comedian,
20:23Dr. Swati Popat-Watz,
20:25education expert,
20:26citizen engineer,
20:27and Tara Deshpande,
20:28author and actor.
20:30I would like to begin.
20:31Tara,
20:31let's begin with you.
20:32What is it that is wrong?
20:33And, you know,
20:34strangely,
20:34I have an all-women panel.
20:36I didn't quite design it this way,
20:37but so as it is
20:40because, you know,
20:41is it a gender problem as well?
20:43Yes, there's an acute lack
20:45of toilets,
20:47public toilets in this country,
20:49but you really don't see
20:50women squatting in corners,
20:52on roads,
20:53publicly urinating.
20:54It's also a gender issue.
20:56But it's not just a gender issue,
20:58Tara, is it?
20:58Because as much
20:59is it a gender issue,
21:00it's as much a civic issue
21:02and it's also a cultural context to it.
21:06I agree with you.
21:07However,
21:08if you were to try and film
21:10or exhibit like they have
21:12a woman urinating in public,
21:14there would be
21:15half a dozen laws against it,
21:17including outraging
21:18the modesty of a woman.
21:19So I'm completely against
21:20this kind of footage
21:22being taken and displayed in public
21:23because, frankly,
21:24it's so disgusting,
21:25who would want to watch it?
21:26But it is also
21:27an invasion of privacy
21:28and until a court tells you
21:30that this is the punishment
21:31for what you've done,
21:32I don't think that
21:32a civic body
21:33can just decide to do this.
21:35Now, you know,
21:36if you compare
21:37the UK, the US,
21:38as well as India,
21:39But Tara, can I,
21:40I know I'm going to allow you
21:41to complete
21:42because there is
21:43a clear argument
21:44against it
21:45because many would say
21:46where is the right of privacy
21:47if you decide to unzip
21:48your pants
21:48in the middle of a road?
21:50But if a man was to
21:51flash at a woman in public,
21:53you would arrest him
21:54for being a sexual offender.
21:57Would you take footage of that
21:59and show it to the public?
22:01But there are laws
22:02in this country
22:02which is against
22:03public urination.
22:04They're just not
22:04followed or implemented.
22:06But the law doesn't allow
22:07you to film it
22:08and then put it up
22:09on social media
22:10or on a public platform.
22:12I don't think
22:13that is going to help
22:13because I think
22:14some people are so shameless
22:15if they don't want to make
22:16any difference at all.
22:17But understand
22:17where we're coming from.
22:18If you compare India
22:19to the US and the UK,
22:21the UK and the US
22:22have no obligation
22:23to provide public toilets.
22:24But in India,
22:25including the 74th Amendment
22:27to the Constitution,
22:28the Municipal Act
22:28as well as Swatshubhara Commission
22:31imposes the duty
22:32of providing toilets
22:33to the public
22:34on civic authorities.
22:35But this is where
22:36the problem arises
22:37because it's very unclear.
22:38It's very ambiguous.
22:39It doesn't tell you
22:40after how many kilometers.
22:41It doesn't tell you
22:42the density of population
22:43has to be so much
22:44you have to provide a toilet.
22:45So basically,
22:46it's a free for all.
22:47There's so much discussion
22:48involved that anybody
22:49can do anything.
22:50Interestingly,
22:51the building bylaws
22:52in India
22:52require that every kilometer
22:54you have a public toilet
22:56available,
22:5750-50 gender basis.
22:59But you can't enforce those
23:01as easily as you can,
23:03for instance,
23:04you know,
23:05the municipal acts.
23:07So that requires,
23:08I think we require
23:09some legal changes
23:10to take place here
23:11that will make it
23:13very clear
23:13that if there's a density
23:14of so many people
23:15in this area
23:16or there's a park
23:17there with so many people
23:18coming in,
23:18you have to have a toilet.
23:19You have to have a toilet
23:20every two kilometers
23:21or one kilometer
23:22and it has to be accessible.
23:24But Tara,
23:24will it really,
23:25you know,
23:26but as I open up the debate,
23:27but will it really help?
23:29Because a lot of times
23:30there could be toilets,
23:31but that's what most men
23:32are used to.
23:33They will not use the toilets.
23:35And that's why
23:35there is this strong segment
23:37that is a votary
23:38of publicly naming
23:39and shaming these men.
23:41Because civic conscience
23:42is something
23:43which now needs to be imposed.
23:45And it needs to be imposed
23:46with a financial condition to it
23:48that they know
23:49they'll have to pay.
23:49Like in the UK,
23:50if you're caught publicly
23:51urinating,
23:52you have to shell out
23:52100 pounds.
23:54But let me tell you,
23:55people still do it
23:55in parks over there.
23:56It's just not as common
23:57as it is here.
23:59If you go to high park
24:00after...
24:01In India, Tara,
24:02it's an epidemic.
24:03You know,
24:04you drive from your office
24:05to home,
24:06you'll see 10 men peeing.
24:07Absolutely.
24:08But okay,
24:08just allow me to widen
24:09the debate,
24:10but it's a good point
24:10that you've made
24:11that, you know,
24:12what Tara says
24:13is she's not a votary
24:14where it comes down
24:14to actually taking pictures
24:15and making them public.
24:17It impinges on the privacy
24:18of these men,
24:19even despite in public spaces,
24:21they unzip
24:21and they urinate.
24:22But a point made,
24:24I want to bring in
24:25Dr. Swathi Popat
24:26before we get in Neeti as well.
24:27Dr. Swathi,
24:28what's your opinion?
24:30Namaskar and thank you.
24:31I loved your tagline.
24:33When are we going
24:33to be pissed enough?
24:35Civic sense is a huge issue
24:37in our country,
24:38but putting things
24:39on video like this
24:41is not going to help
24:42for two reasons.
24:43Number one,
24:44we are not thinking
24:46of the mental health
24:47of the family.
24:48It will affect...
24:49Imagine if this man
24:50has a child
24:52who goes to school.
24:53This child is going
24:54to be bullied
24:54by his friends
24:56and schoolmates,
24:57et cetera,
24:57that I saw your dad
24:58was peeing in public,
25:00et cetera.
25:01So it's going to create
25:02wider problems
25:03rather than solve
25:04the main issue,
25:05which is public urination.
25:08Number two,
25:09I think we have to go
25:10to the root cause of it.
25:12We are saying
25:12we don't have enough toilets.
25:14I think in many areas
25:15we do have,
25:16but they are not clean.
25:18And when I speak
25:19to these people
25:20who clean these toilets,
25:21they always tell me
25:22they don't know
25:23how to use.
25:24These people who come here,
25:25even educated people
25:26don't know how
25:27to use the toilets.
25:28And it's a fact.
25:29You go to any mall,
25:30you go to even
25:31a five-star hotel
25:32and see their toilet
25:33during public time,
25:34you will see the toilets
25:36are horribly maintained
25:37because the people
25:38who are using them
25:39don't have the civic sense.
25:41Last point,
25:42I think it all boils down
25:44to belonging,
25:45a sense of belonging.
25:46These people
25:47are urinating
25:48because they feel
25:49the city,
25:49that space
25:50doesn't belong to them.
25:51They would never do
25:52this kind of urination
25:53in their homes.
25:54So we need
25:55to bring in
25:55that sense
25:56and it can only
25:57come with fining
25:58with a very large amount.
26:01But Swati,
26:02you know,
26:02a lot of these
26:02like Milind was saying
26:03and I completely agree
26:04with him
26:04because a lot of people
26:06who would possibly
26:07just get out of their car
26:08and pee in a corner
26:09will never do it
26:10if they're abroad.
26:11They'll never throw
26:12that wrapper,
26:13you know,
26:14that they've just
26:14taken off
26:15a bar of chocolate.
26:16If they are
26:17in any other country,
26:18they'll carry it
26:19for a kilometer
26:19to find a bin.
26:21And in many countries,
26:22you know,
26:23there has to be
26:23a cultural
26:24and a social civic
26:25context to it also
26:26and maybe it's
26:27entitlement
26:27where gender is concerned.
26:29It's an amalgamation
26:29of all these issues
26:31because in many countries,
26:32you know,
26:33Swati,
26:34look at London,
26:35look at America.
26:37Most public toilets
26:38are paid for.
26:39It's not that,
26:40you know,
26:41that they're open
26:42to everyone.
26:43And despite that,
26:45people do follow the law.
26:46I want to bring in
26:47Neeti.
26:47Neeti,
26:48I think out of
26:48the four of us,
26:49you know,
26:51and I hear both of them.
26:52I hear Swati,
26:53I hear Tara,
26:53there's a privacy issue.
26:55There could be
26:55an embarrassment issue,
26:57but I'm just done with it.
26:58Embarrass them.
26:59I don't care.
27:01You know,
27:01surprisingly,
27:02I'm also
27:04of the opinion
27:05that I don't know
27:06if this is the best idea
27:07because let's face it,
27:09you know,
27:09we see surface,
27:11they see opportunity.
27:12And these days,
27:13people will do
27:14anything to get
27:15on the big screen.
27:16You're kidding me.
27:17Are you telling me
27:18that people are going
27:19to start peeing
27:20on the roads
27:20because their pictures
27:22would be taken
27:22off them?
27:23I won't be surprised
27:25if there are men
27:25looking at the camera
27:26saying,
27:27look ma,
27:27no hands.
27:28You know,
27:30because there have been
27:31so many initiatives
27:32by the government.
27:33They even put photos
27:35of gods on walls.
27:36Those photos
27:37started off like this,
27:38they've ended up
27:39like that.
27:40Put hefty fines,
27:42sure,
27:42but like you mentioned
27:43the cultural context,
27:44I think that's
27:45a great idea
27:46because,
27:46you know,
27:47we've tried
27:47insult messaging
27:49with gadhe ke poot,
27:50yaa nahi moot
27:51and all that.
27:52Maybe you should
27:53just dig deep
27:54and get into vastu
27:55and, you know,
27:57threaten them
27:58where they are
27:58most insecure
27:59that
27:59ish disha mein mootru
28:01visarjan karne se
28:03aapki yantru mein
28:04bhaari ghatauti ho sakti hai.
28:06Something like that
28:07might hit home harder.
28:10Just a thought.
28:11All right,
28:11okay,
28:11you know,
28:11but if you talk
28:12about innovative concepts,
28:14and Tara,
28:14I want to bring you
28:15in on this.
28:15It's happened,
28:16Madurai does it.
28:17My hometown,
28:18Rautak in Haryana
28:19does it,
28:19but believe me,
28:20most men don't even
28:21pee in their house,
28:21they'll pee outside.
28:23And what they've done
28:23is,
28:24especially on walls,
28:26Tara,
28:27and,
28:27you know,
28:28they've started
28:29putting mirrors.
28:30So if you're going to pee,
28:31then it's the same thing.
28:33You know,
28:33you take a picture of them
28:34and that's why
28:35people have actually
28:36stopped publicly
28:38urinating in lots of
28:39parts of at least
28:40Rautak
28:40and even in Madurai
28:41because most of these
28:42walls have mirrors.
28:45Well,
28:46if something is working,
28:48then I mean,
28:48certainly you need
28:49to expand its utility
28:52because,
28:53I mean,
28:53we've tried so many things.
28:54We've tried posters
28:55of gods and goddesses.
28:56We've tried messages
28:57on walls.
28:58We've tried all kinds
28:59of things
28:59and it doesn't seem
29:00to work.
29:00I do think that
29:01very hefty fines
29:03and penalties
29:04will help.
29:04For instance,
29:05you know,
29:05there used to be
29:06so much illegal parking
29:07in Mumbai.
29:08It's really reduced
29:09now because the fines
29:10are so hefty.
29:11People are like,
29:12it's just much cheaper
29:13to pay for public parking
29:15than to actually be
29:16stuck with a fine
29:16and the fine keeps going up.
29:18If you've broken
29:19the law once,
29:20it's this,
29:20then it's 2x,
29:21then it's 3x.
29:22So I think that,
29:23you know,
29:23fines will make a difference.
29:24But the good question
29:25here is,
29:26you know,
29:27in the UK and the US,
29:28there is no obligation
29:29to provide public toilets.
29:30But how is it
29:31that you don't see
29:32people urinating
29:33like this on the streets
29:33everywhere?
29:34At some level,
29:35this is a cultural mindset.
29:37True.
29:38This is,
29:38I think,
29:39well beyond,
29:40oh,
29:40these people have just
29:40come to the city.
29:41You have come to the city.
29:43You know you are in the city.
29:44You know,
29:45you can't do this.
29:46You can't even do this
29:47in a village somewhere,
29:48you know.
29:49There is a proper place
29:50to go out
29:51and urinate.
29:52This is absolutely incorrect.
29:54So I don't think
29:54we should make excuses
29:55anymore for,
29:57people sort of being
29:58backward
29:59or people being uneducated.
30:00It's the law
30:01and you have to follow it.
30:07Okay, fair point.
30:09I want to bring in Swati
30:10into this conversation.
30:11Swati,
30:12what do you make?
30:12What is a clear deterrent?
30:14We've tried for decades.
30:15It hasn't quite worked.
30:16But I do tend
30:17to also agree with Tara.
30:19You impose a hefty fine.
30:21Nothing,
30:22you know,
30:23puts the fear of God
30:24in Indians,
30:25which is,
30:26if they have to really
30:27shell out a huge,
30:28hefty financial penalty
30:30for doing something
30:31and you implement it.
30:33I would say three things.
30:35Number one,
30:35a hefty fine
30:36definitely will solve
30:3780% of the issue.
30:39Number two is,
30:40I live in Mumbai
30:41and it is,
30:42I would say,
30:43having traveled
30:44all over the country.
30:45It's one of the dirtiest cities
30:47that we have
30:48and it's littered so much
30:50and when I see people littering,
30:52they always have an excuse.
30:54I had one person
30:55who told me,
30:56I told him to put it
30:56in the bin
30:57and he said,
30:57why will the dirt
31:11cleanliness is concerned.
31:12We need to make a benchmark.
31:14The municipalities
31:15need to be taken to task
31:17to ensure that they give you
31:18a clean city.
31:19And number three,
31:20we tried to use pester power.
31:22You know,
31:23we tried to use children
31:24to train their parents
31:26into understanding civic sense
31:29and it did help till some time
31:31but as soon as these children
31:32go into middle school
31:33and secondary school,
31:35everything gets washed out.
31:36So I think fines,
31:38education and cleanliness.
31:40These three,
31:41three movies
31:41will have to come together
31:43if we really need
31:44to bring about
31:45lasting change
31:46because resentment
31:48does not lead to reform
31:50and this kind of video shaming
31:52is going to lead to resentment.
31:54It will not lead to reform.
31:56Well, you know,
31:56I'm of the opinion
31:58if there are 20 people
31:59who are watching this
32:00and they feel that tomorrow
32:02if they're going to decide
32:03to publicly urinate,
32:04if this is a possibility,
32:06it might just stop them.
32:07I feel it could be a deterrent
32:08but that's just,
32:09you know,
32:09my opinion
32:10and I do agree
32:11and I admit
32:11that, you know,
32:13there is a sense of privacy
32:14and there is a cultural context to it
32:16but, Neeti,
32:17you know,
32:17we are bringing in examples.
32:19Some would say
32:20are unfair comparisons
32:21where we bring in countries
32:22like the United Kingdom,
32:23the USA
32:24or even relatively younger
32:25Middle Eastern countries
32:28and we compare them to India.
32:30A, the population of India.
32:32B, half of India,
32:3375% of India
32:34lives in its rural belt
32:35where most still
32:36don't have toilets
32:37even though it's an endeavor
32:38over decades
32:39to enable them
32:40to have sanitation
32:41and toilets,
32:42they don't have it.
32:43So, and there are
32:44a lot of migrants
32:45from villages
32:46who come into these cities.
32:47So, yes,
32:48it is a deep-seated
32:49cultural issue.
32:51You know,
32:52it's,
32:52that's the fun part
32:53that it's not just
32:55these people.
32:55We just automatically
32:56assume that it's
32:57the people
32:58who are have-nots
32:59who are doing this.
33:00No, I agree with you.
33:01It's, yeah.
33:02Throwing trash
33:02out of their Mercedes
33:04just because
33:04they know
33:05that nothing's
33:06going to happen.
33:07So, yes,
33:07punitive action
33:08and it will be
33:10interesting to see
33:11implementation.
33:11I mean,
33:12imagine how awkward
33:13it would be
33:13for the Havaldad
33:14to catch this guy
33:16mid-crime
33:16and say,
33:17hands up.
33:18Get the picture.
33:19But,
33:21I think
33:21it's a great way
33:22to add to the
33:23government coffers
33:24by actually facing
33:25hefty fines
33:26because we only
33:26understand punishment.
33:28We really only
33:29understand punishment.
33:31No, you're right there.
33:32I want to take
33:32final comments.
33:33Okay, let's just begin.
33:34Tara, go first.
33:38I think
33:39hefty fines
33:41and I think
33:42this,
33:43you know,
33:44taking videos.
33:45I mean,
33:45who's going to wake up
33:46in the morning
33:46and look at a video
33:47like this here?
33:48Oh my God,
33:49I can't even bear
33:50to look at it
33:50like on the screen
33:51over here.
33:52Imagine having to go
33:53to work
33:53or even driving past.
33:55But Tara,
33:55you don't even need
33:56to see videos.
33:57You see live,
33:57don't you see
33:58live performances?
34:00God,
34:01I don't want to see
34:01any of you.
34:03Why is it a video?
34:05We're on national TV.
34:08Because you see it.
34:09That's what it is.
34:10That's the sad reality.
34:13Yeah, but...
34:14Okay,
34:15hefty fines.
34:15What we've come down to
34:16is implementation
34:17of hefty fines.
34:18That's what Tara says.
34:19No pictures,
34:21no public shaming.
34:22And more toilets
34:23and hefty fines.
34:25Swati,
34:26go ahead.
34:27I would say three things.
34:28Number one,
34:28hefty fines.
34:29Number two,
34:29if it doesn't work,
34:30the mirrors.
34:31And number three,
34:32photograph them,
34:33send it to their family
34:34and send it to the place
34:35where they work.
34:37Let's make them...
34:39that they can't work anywhere
34:40if they're going to do this.
34:41If they're in college,
34:43they can't attend college.
34:44Something will have to be done
34:45which is so stringent...
34:46So, subject them
34:47to public humiliation
34:48but limited to just
34:50their family and friends
34:51and their co-workers.
34:53Okay.
34:54Neeti.
34:55I think two A's
34:56which is the awareness
34:57and accountability.
34:59So, yes,
35:00maybe we should do campaigns
35:02which are going hawk,
35:03you know,
35:04just to kind of shame them,
35:06not necessarily name them
35:07but definitely shame them
35:08into realizing
35:09this is wrong.
35:10It's almost like
35:11we've forgotten
35:12that this is wrong
35:13because everyone's doing it
35:15so everyone can get away with it.
35:17And that's awareness
35:18and accountability
35:19is where the fines are imposed.
35:22Those two things,
35:23I think,
35:24would help tremendously.
35:26All right.
35:27I think shaming is a
35:28very dangerous place to go.
35:30If you have some young kid
35:31who gets bullied
35:32to the point
35:33where he kills himself tomorrow,
35:34it's not going to be fun anymore
35:36or funny anymore.
35:37So, I don't think...
35:38No, the whore being the campaign,
35:39like a creative campaign saying...
35:41Like, you know,
35:42you have people saying
35:43this is not a waste of money
35:44and all, that way.
35:45But shaming is a very, very...
35:47is murky waters.
35:49I would be very careful.
35:51Okay.
35:51You know,
35:52I think we've got a bunch of
35:54three very empathetic women
35:55because, you know,
35:57some of the lot
35:57that we were speaking to earlier
35:59said, damn it,
36:00we don't care.
36:01Shame them.
36:01Show them.
36:03Anyway, but thank you.
36:05And thank you for your point of view
36:06because I think well taken
36:08and possibly that's the way to go.
36:09Hefty fines it is.
36:11I think I got into this conversation
36:12where Bilind and I were talking about
36:14it doesn't matter,
36:15shame them.
36:16It's high time.
36:17But after speaking,
36:19two women,
36:19three women,
36:20and it's not a women problem
36:21who cause it
36:22because women don't pee out there.
36:23They actually feel,
36:24don't shame them,
36:25just impose a heavy fine.
36:26And that could work better.
36:27Thank you,
36:29ladies,
36:29for joining me this evening.
36:31I really appreciate it.
36:31All right.
36:32Let's quickly move on
36:33to the latest
36:35that is coming in now
36:36from Rajasthan.
36:37And this is not funny at all
36:39because a government probe
36:41has now exposed
36:42serious lapses
36:43after a string
36:44of maternal deaths
36:45in Rajasthan's
36:46government hospitals.
36:4718 women
36:48have died
36:49during childbirth
36:50since May
36:51with Bheelwara
36:52emerging
36:53as the latest flashpoint.
36:54As the investigation
36:56points to procedural failure,
36:58grieving families
36:59demand accountability.
37:01Fear has gripped
37:02expectant mothers
37:03with hospital deliveries
37:04witnessing a sharp decline.
37:05In midst of all of this,
37:07you've had the health minister
37:08who brushed it off.
37:10Here's more.
37:14A hospital is meant
37:15to be the safest place
37:17to bring life
37:18into this world.
37:19But in Rajasthan,
37:20for several families,
37:22the maternity ward
37:23became the last place
37:24they ever saw
37:25their daughters,
37:26wives,
37:27and mothers alive.
37:31Since May,
37:3318 women have died
37:34around childbirth
37:35in government hospitals
37:36across Rajasthan,
37:37including Bheelwara,
37:39Bhanswara,
37:40Kota,
37:40Jodhpur,
37:41and Bheekanir.
37:43The latest shock
37:44came from Bheelwara,
37:46where five mothers
37:47died in just six days,
37:49triggering outrage
37:50and forcing
37:51the Rajasthan government
37:52to order
37:53an expert probe.
37:55A preliminary report
37:57by two-member expert panel
37:58has now painted
37:59a disturbing picture.
38:22The probe reportedly
38:24holds doctors responsible,
38:26placing nurse's staff
38:28under scrutiny
38:29and also indicts
38:30the maternal
38:31and child health
38:32program in charge.
38:34Investigators flagged
38:35breakdowns in hospital
38:36systems
38:37and multiple
38:38procedural lapses.
38:42But while families
38:43wait for justice,
38:44Rajasthan Health Minister
38:46Kajendra Singh Kim,
38:47sir,
38:47sparked fresh outrage.
38:49Asked about the maternal
38:50deaths during a press conference,
38:52the minister laughed
38:53and said
38:54he would answer
38:55a question
38:55after the break.
39:16For grieving families,
39:18there was nothing
39:19to laugh about.
39:21Under fire,
39:22Rajasthan government
39:23has launched a campaign
39:24for intensive screening
39:26of all pregnant women.
39:28Five-day statewide campaign
39:30will start on July 15th.
39:31But the fallout
39:32is now visible
39:33inside Bheelwara,
39:35Mahatma Gandhi hospital.
39:38The hospital that once
39:40conducted around
39:4160 normal deliveries
39:42now conducts
39:43around 20 to 25 a day.
39:46The hospital used to conduct
39:48up to 35 caesarean sections
39:50every day
39:50has seen those numbers collapse.
39:53Caesarean surgeries
39:54have fallen
39:55to just 3 to 5 daily.
39:58Many expectant mothers
40:00are now scared to deliver
40:02at the very hospital
40:03meant to protect them.
40:16The hospital's administration
40:18has denied
40:19that an infected
40:20operation theatre
40:21caused the deaths.
40:24from the media.
40:26The news started
40:27that the Sankaramit
40:29O.T.
40:31has died.
40:35It's not like that.
40:40The operation
40:41has been in O.T.
40:42number 1.
40:45O.T.
40:452 was closed
40:54every maternal death is more than a statistic it leaves behind a shattered
41:00family and a motherless child the probe has exposed serious lapses now the
41:08question is who will be held accountable before another mother dies bureau
41:13report india today all right moving on in the bulletin it's the 17th day today into an
41:24indefinite hunger strike educationist activist sonam mangchuk's protest along with the cockroach
41:30janta party at delhi's jantar mantra is becoming now a rallying point over alleged exam paper leak
41:37accountability of the education system and the education minister dharmedra pradhan
41:43as wangchuk's health deteriorates after surviving only on water opposition leaders have now come
41:49out voicing support urging him to end his fast the congress has still now kept its distance
41:56while wangchuk says that this is not a fight against one minister but a movement to awaken
42:02the nation till now the government has refused to engage with sonam wangchuk and the cockroach
42:09janta party which is protesting and jantar mantra the hunger strike d17 my colleague amit bharadwaj reports
42:2217 days without food educationist and innovators sonam wangchuk has been on an indefinite hunger
42:30strike at the jantar mantra in delhi in solidarity with students protesting against neat and other
42:36exam paper leak the activist from ladakh has lost more than eight kilos in weight over the period during
42:43which his only intake has been water while the banner at the protest led by the cjp calls for
42:49education minister dharmedra pradhan's resignation wangchuk claims his fight is not about an individual
42:55but for accountability all long journeys start with a step and it's never too late to take that step
43:05so we start here have accountability in education then in health then in environment i cannot alone do
43:18that people have to say it in loud voice and that's why i'm sitting here to awaken the nation
43:28when you when will you wake up twenty young souls have taken their own life they work hard all their
43:41lives
43:42to sincerely prepare and succeed in these examinations and even those examinations are rigged
43:52so it means a lot for those young souls and their families if you don't raise your voice today when
44:01i'm taking the initiative
44:03you are then perhaps condemned to keep dying like animals
44:12while many opposition leaders have backed the protest they have appealed wangchuk to end his indefinite fast
44:19the protest
44:45so
45:01Significantly, the Congress, which was at the receiving end of a similar fast by Anna Hazare
45:0615 years ago, has been lukewarm in its response.
45:10The party has launched its own agitation for education reforms.
45:15I would say have a large heart, be a leader of the nation, not of a small party or a
45:24grand
45:25party with an issue.
45:28Make issues nation's issue, don't hold on.
45:33I see some hesitation on their part to join this.
45:38Just ally with others and be a grand leader, magnanimous leader.
45:46Six students from ISA had joined Vangchuk's hunger strike when he started.
45:51But since then, three have been hospitalized.
46:10Climate activist and educationist Sonam Vangchuk continues his hunger strike even on 17th day
46:17at Delhi's Chantar Mantra.
46:19He is saying that he is seeking not only resignation of Union Education Minister, Mr. Dharmedra Pradhan,
46:25but also accountability from the elected government in the centre.
46:30While the central government has reconducted the neat UZ examination and is claiming to clean up the system,
46:38Mr. Vangchuk is also seeking that leader of opposition in Lok Sabha, Rahul Gandhi, should show a larger heart
46:47and accommodate the demands being made from here in Jantar Mantra by the Gen Z youth.
46:54With PDO journalist Ankit Singh, this is Amit Bhardwaj reporting for India today from Delhi.
46:58Thank you, Mr. Vangchuk.
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