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00:01The doors to the den are open for business.
00:05A place where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
00:11But this time the game has changed.
00:14A fresh wave of fierce investors are out to shake things up and steal the deals.
00:22Joining the Dragons tonight...
00:24I'm Susie Ma and I'm the founder and CEO of Tropic Skincare.
00:28Good to have you back Susie.
00:29Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be back again.
00:32My business has been one of the top 100 fastest growing businesses in the UK.
00:38That's what I'm looking for.
00:39When I look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs, I want to see real passion.
00:43I really like you.
00:45I'm looking for that entrepreneur with that seed of an idea that I know I can invest in support to
00:50make it something amazing.
00:52I'm getting emotional here.
00:54I am buzzing with excitement and I'm ready to make investments.
01:08My name's Dr Catherine Fernando and I'm a GP.
01:12My business is called Ayase.
01:17Don't tell me. It's a backpack.
01:20Well, it's got a stethoscope there.
01:23I've no idea why I'm engaging in this. I hate this game.
01:29I'm feeling quite nervous.
01:32I've been a doctor for 24 years, but I've only been a businesswoman for two.
01:36So I'm anxious about the examination that the Dragons are going to give me, but I hope they'll want to
01:42invest in me.
01:53Hello Dragons.
01:55My name is Dr Catherine Fernando and I'm a GP.
01:59I'm here to ask you for £50,000 in return for a 20% share in my company Ayase.
02:06Ayase is a Japanese word that means to heal and that is what millions of doctors around the world do
02:13every day.
02:14But did you know that the traditional Gladstone doctors bag was designed in the 1800s at a time when the
02:22vast majority of doctors were men?
02:25Thankfully times have changed and nowadays over 50% of doctors in the UK are female.
02:31Unfortunately, the bags have not. These boring bags are outdated, masculine and sometimes they don't even have enough pockets to
02:42hold our medical equipment.
02:48Ayase makes high-end luxury doctor's bags designed for women in healthcare.
02:54They contain multiple pockets to carry and organise our medical equipment.
02:59And we have six different designs and each is named after a pioneering female doctor.
03:05Ayase has been trading for two years.
03:08We have sold nearly 300 bags and we have had a turnover since launch combined of £80,000.
03:16Before I welcome your questions, I'd like to give you all a bag so that you can inspect them.
03:23A stylish range of bags tailored to the taste of female GPs and other healthcare professionals is the offering from
03:31Dr. Catherine Fernando.
03:33This one's for you, Peter.
03:35Thank you very much.
03:36OK, Dr. Jones.
03:38This one's for you, Dr. Bartlett.
03:39Thank you so much.
03:41She's asking for £50,000 in return for a 20% share of her company.
03:47So, I've chosen the red one for you, Barbara.
03:50Oh, lovely.
03:51Good choice.
03:52Thank you very much.
03:53I like that.
03:54The bags are proving popular.
03:56I like yours.
03:57This is cool.
03:58And already wanting to make a trade.
04:00Do I swap?
04:02Stephen Bartlett is first with a question.
04:08Dr. Catherine.
04:10Hello.
04:10What type of doctor are you?
04:11I'm a GP.
04:12A GP.
04:13OK.
04:14Is this your first business?
04:15It is, yes.
04:16I think the elephant in the room is just about the size of the market.
04:20Yes.
04:21I don't know how many doctors there are and how many people that would be relevant to use this kind
04:25of bag.
04:26OK.
04:26So, the doctors that are relevant for this kind of bag are general practitioners.
04:31And in the UK, there are 54,000 GPs and over half of doctors in the UK are female now.
04:39And about 60% of them go into general practice.
04:42OK.
04:42So, how many customers do you think you have that could buy this product in the UK total?
04:49In the UK total, I think I would have 28,000 customers that could buy a bag.
04:55It's not a huge market, is it?
04:57It is quite a niche market.
04:59The market is expanded when you include advanced nurse practitioners.
05:03And you mentioned the word luxury in your pitch.
05:05Yes.
05:06How much does this cost?
05:08So, retail price of that bag is £300.
05:11£300?
05:12Yes.
05:13Wow.
05:14Wow.
05:14Oh, wow.
05:15Has it got Gucci on the side?
05:16Wow.
05:17It does have a lot of detailing.
05:19It has details on all of the metalwork, the zips.
05:22It has feet on the bottom of the bag.
05:26I think if you were a doctor, you'd have something like that, wouldn't you?
05:29I can see you with this.
05:30I mean, it's gorgeous.
05:33It feels really high quality, so what do you think?
05:37I think they're lovely.
05:38I mean, and when you look inside, I think the design's lovely.
05:42I mean, there's a lot of work that goes into these bags.
05:44There is a lot of work.
05:45I mean, it's a high price point.
05:47It is.
05:48But when you look at the bag, I can understand how the cost...
05:51How much are they costing you to make?
05:53This one, for example.
05:54That one, for example, would cost £73 to make.
05:57So, that costs £73.
05:59Yes.
05:59What does that sell for?
06:01£275.
06:02£275.
06:03Yeah.
06:03And are you selling the direct to consumer?
06:05I am.
06:06I have had some interest from a retailer, and they've bought 58 bags from me.
06:11And they ordered a few more, like, two weeks ago.
06:15And how many is a few more?
06:17Oh, only three more.
06:18OK.
06:18So, they're selling a bit.
06:20Yes.
06:20But they're not absolutely flying off the shelves.
06:22I've got to say, Catherine, that the product is great quality.
06:27I mean, I had one, but it's been taken by Dr Bartlett.
06:30By Dr Bartlett.
06:32No, but I think the quality of it is fantastic.
06:36So, at the start of the business, I wanted to make sure that I established my brand being
06:41a very high-quality product.
06:43And hopefully, in the future, if we are able to continue with another round,
06:49then we can seek factories to get the bags at a lower cost.
06:54You said to Peter something there which was quite curious.
06:56You said, if we're able to continue.
06:58Yes.
06:58What do you mean by continue?
06:59Do you mean the business continue?
07:01No, no.
07:01I just mean, when we go into a second round of production, then it would be great to be
07:07able to source the bags at a lower cost.
07:12At this point, we have a lot of stock.
07:16I bought 1,900 bags because I went for the style and the colours.
07:23Wow.
07:241,900?
07:35I bought 25,000 pounds from that, in which case, we will definitely be able to continue
07:40and look for new markets.
07:43How much have you invested in this business so far?
07:45I've actually invested over 400,000 pounds of my own money into it.
07:51400,000 pounds?
07:52Yes.
07:54Where did you get the 400,000 pounds from?
07:56My uncle died in COVID.
07:58Okay.
07:59Sorry to hear.
08:00It was okay.
08:00Sorry.
08:00Okay.
08:02You've produced a beautiful, stunning product off the back of that.
08:05So it's not an investment wasted in that regard.
08:09It is tough.
08:10It is tough because I've been in this space before and I spent a lot of time working in
08:14the marketing side of this space, but also we had a business come into the den a couple
08:18of years ago who was selling these designer bags made here in Manchester.
08:22Right.
08:23Tough.
08:24Yes.
08:24Tough from all sides.
08:33A little bit too tough for me.
08:35That's fine.
08:35I understand.
08:36So I'm going to say that I'm out, but thank you so much.
08:38And I'm going to pay for that bag.
08:40Thank you, Stephen.
08:44Dr Catherine, I actually worry that you're so focused on the GPs that you're missing a
08:53massive market.
08:55Because I wouldn't...
08:56If you look at the inside of this, it just does what I want it to do.
08:59Great.
08:59It doesn't just do what the doctor...
09:01Yeah.
09:02You want it to do.
09:03You know, it's a lovely looking bag.
09:04It's got somewhere from my laptop.
09:06I can put all of my toiletries in there and I can put...
09:10It's really nice.
09:11Now, that doesn't stop the whole market being very difficult, as Stephen's alluded to.
09:17You know.
09:18But you do need to find a wider market.
09:20OK.
09:21And I suspect that if you can just find those platforms, you will sell enough of the goods
09:27to do the thing that I actually do think worries you.
09:30Because I think when it came out to Stephen saying, if we can continue, there is something
09:35in the back of your head that's worrying you that if I don't sell these, it isn't...
09:40I can't...
09:40I can't keep putting more money in.
09:43That's...
09:43You know, you...
09:44£400,000, that is a lot of money to put in.
09:46I know.
09:46I know.
09:47But I absolutely love what you're doing.
09:49But I won't be investing.
09:51I'm out.
09:51OK, Debra, thank you.
09:54Catherine, you know what?
09:55I think if you came here today with a wider story of how this bag is a multifunctional
10:03bag for the everyday working woman, I think you'd have very different responses from the
10:09Dragons.
10:10And I think there's a lot of work you would need to put into this to just shift the stock.
10:18And I'm not passionate about it enough to kind of drive this with you.
10:22So I'm so sorry, Catherine, for that reason I'm out.
10:29You are very brave.
10:31£400,000 investment.
10:33In this business, you are a real entrepreneur and brave.
10:40Having looked at this and saying, and heard what you said, your pitch limits the amount
10:49of turnover you can actually do with 28,000 potential customers.
10:54For that reason, I don't see that as an investment for me in the short term, so I'm out.
11:00And Catherine, I think you've clearly got a problem.
11:02You can't sell the volume, can you?
11:03Yes.
11:04Right.
11:04So to be able to sell the volume, you'd be better off to do something with a specific
11:08retailer that sells luggage, and provide that product on a consignment basis to them.
11:13OK.
11:14And allow them to do what they do best, which is target their customers and sell your product,
11:18and take a percentage rather than anything else.
11:20Yeah.
11:21There's your route.
11:22OK.
11:22Look, I think it is really tough.
11:25I really hope that you can actually get out of the stock by partnering with somebody.
11:31But it's not an investment for me.
11:32I'm going to say that I'm out.
11:36Well done, Catherine.
11:36Thank you so much.
11:37Thank you, Catherine.
11:38Thank you so much.
11:39Bye-bye.
11:41Catherine hoped her doctor's bag would be just what the Dragons ordered.
11:47But its niche appeal didn't get their pulses racing, and she leaves the den without a deal.
11:54Although the Dragons didn't invest, they absolutely loved the designs and the quality of the bags,
12:00but it's just too small a market for them.
12:02It's crazy how one sentence, if we are able to continue, tells a complete story of where she's at in
12:08her head.
12:09She's lacking the confidence, isn't she?
12:10Yeah.
12:11I'm having it anyway.
12:13Can I have that bag?
12:14No, you can't have it.
12:15No, you're not having that.
12:19I'm still very passionate about my company, and this is definitely not the age of Ayasi.
12:37I'm Ben McGair.
12:39I'm the owner of Compo, and we are on a mission to redefine food waste by allowing people to conveniently
12:44dispose of their food.
12:45Food waste in one touch.
12:48Composter.
12:49Must be a composter.
12:50Must be a composter.
12:51Yeah.
12:52What a load of rubbish.
12:53You're on fire with your puns, Peter.
12:55Oh, the fresh take you have on Peter's puns.
13:00I think you're great, Susie.
13:04The Dragons all have strengths that directly align with Compo.
13:09I think Deborah, though, is the standout for her history of sustainable and eco projects.
13:25Hello, Dragons.
13:26My name is Ben, and today I'm here to ask for £86,000 in exchange for 20% of my
13:33company, Compo.
13:35I'm sure that you all dispose of your food waste in a variety of different ways.
13:39Some of you will take the time to compost your food waste.
13:43Some of you let the council deal with the disposal part of it.
13:46However, some of you may simply throw your food waste into the black bin and simply forget about it.
13:52When food is left to rot in landfill conditions, a harmful byproduct called methane is produced.
13:58Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas, which is 28 times more potent than CO2.
14:05But we can take steps to reduce its impact on the environment.
14:10Compo is a sleek alternative to food disposal.
14:13You simply place your food waste in this unit, press one button, and in five to eight hours, you are
14:25left with a dried, reduced volume, biodegradable mix, which is kinder to the planet.
14:33For some numbers, to date, we have received over €103,000 in pre-orders.
14:40And that is with a gross profit of €64,500 and a slight net loss of €6,500.
14:47Now, with your investment, we are planning to heavily invest in our stock and our marketing expansion.
14:54And with this, we predict that we will be profitable by Q4.
14:58I'd love to show you around and any questions you might have as well.
15:02Can we come up and see?
15:04Yes, come on up.
15:07A machine to break down food waste quickly and efficiently in the home...
15:12I'd like to smell it.
15:13Yeah, of course.
15:14...is the offering from Ben McGurr.
15:17So, is this a prototype?
15:18So, this is a finalised unit, and we ran it today, and this is... It's actually still quite warm from
15:24today, so...
15:25So, this is working?
15:26Yes, this is what came out of this one today.
15:29The eco-conscious entrepreneur is asking for £86,000 in return for a 20% stake in the business.
15:37That's nice. That looks like the stuff you put out of a plug.
15:40The dragons seem to be enjoying getting their hands dirty.
15:44Is it squishy?
15:45But with a passion for all things green, Deborah Meaden wants to dig deeper.
15:53Ben, thank you.
15:55So, we actually compost virtually.
15:58Either it goes to our animals, or we compost everything.
16:01There is nothing in our house that doesn't get composted.
16:03And there's lovely juices that come off compost.
16:06There is.
16:06And they're actually... They are lovely if you're a gardener, because they're...
16:09You know, you can do something with them.
16:12So, what...
16:12I was going to say how dry, but I'm going to ask a slightly different question.
16:16Yeah.
16:16What can I use that for?
16:18So, it is a biodegradable mix.
16:20Simply mix it in with compost if you have it.
16:22So, you're probably thinking, well, if I don't have compost, what am I meant to do with it?
16:26So, you can mix it with anything you have, like potting soil.
16:29So, if I wanted to essentially, let's say, repot this plant into a larger pot rather than having to use
16:35additional soil,
16:36I could mix this in and essentially the nutrients would filter it.
16:39And what if I don't want to do any of that?
16:40So, I'm doing it because I've got a massive pile of peelings over here.
16:45Yeah.
16:46And this reduces the waste and the smell.
16:48Yes.
16:49Now, hear me out.
16:50This may sound very counterproductive.
16:52You can bin it.
16:54And I know that might...
16:55That sounds really counterproductive.
16:57It does.
16:58And I will tell you why it's not.
16:59So, if it was a scenario where you had to put it into a black bin to send to landfill,
17:04a lot of, essentially, when food waste, fresh food waste has around 70 to 90% moisture content,
17:11that is really where the methane producing bacteria likes to feed on.
17:18So, essentially, you're lowering the reactivity of that material in a landfill to produce methane
17:23and you're also greatly reducing its volume.
17:26Ben, did you develop this machine?
17:29So, when I moved in with my girlfriend into an apartment, we had a food bin which was less than
17:37pleasant.
17:38So, I actually went looking for a solution.
17:41There was any amounts of fancy bins and different things that we've seen.
17:45So, there is products similar.
17:46However, their price point was a little bit less than desirable.
17:49So, I went to a manufacturer and see if we could develop something at a much lower price point,
17:55which had basically all the convenient features of the ones that I've seen on the market that day.
17:59So, how much is your product?
18:01So, it retails for £249.
18:05Where is it made?
18:06In China.
18:06Yeah.
18:08So, this is an existing product that you've taken the branding of,
18:13or have you changed anything about what the manufacturer has already made?
18:17So, the initial prototype the manufacturer sent me was single, had a single filter in it.
18:23We worked, I worked with them to get an upgraded version essentially,
18:27but the actual development of the product is done by the supplier, yeah.
18:32So, anyone could go and buy this product?
18:36Yeah, so, we have been working with them to get exclusivity.
18:41And they said that they will open those conversations at around the 4,000 unit a month mark,
18:47which we are not there at the moment.
18:50Ben, this is a, this is a, immediately it's sort of alarm bells.
18:56I think the fact that you don't own any of this, that's really, really worrying.
19:00Because, for this to become truly valuable, you need to own the IP ultimately.
19:06Something similar, or a pattern, you need to have something of value.
19:09So, is there anything you can give me that gives you the confidence to be able to do a deal,
19:14rather than become a distributor of a product?
19:17Yeah.
19:18Because that's ultimately what you are today.
19:20Yeah, so, I think in terms of the, the branding and marketing is where we want to try and retain
19:25some of that market uniqueness.
19:29I've got trademarks launched in the UK and Ireland.
19:32I know that's not a product IP that you're, that you're looking for,
19:35but it is some protection that we have around the brand as a whole.
19:39Yeah, what's the brand?
19:40Campo.
19:41Yeah.
19:42Yeah.
19:42So, I mean, that could be a football.
19:44Yeah.
19:44Even if you did have IP, people will still find a way to copy.
19:47So, I don't think having IP in this day and age is that much of a big deal.
19:52Yeah.
19:53Because there's always ways around it.
19:54Yeah.
19:55I think, like, I do, obviously the IP is something that was, you know, in my head today to counteract.
20:01I think, like, it's important and I understand, but...
20:04No, it's a big, it's fundamental.
20:07Yeah.
20:07Especially for acquisitions.
20:08If you want to build a business, a proper business, you need the IP.
20:12Yeah.
20:13If you just want to be a salesman, then you don't need IP.
20:16There are...
20:19I don't think it's the be-all or end-all.
20:22I don't think it's becoming...
20:23Yeah.
20:24...that actually don't need IP.
20:26And people come in here with IP and I say, that's lovely, but that really isn't worth anything, because there's
20:32a thousand ways of achieving that.
20:33Yeah.
20:34Exactly.
20:34So, I think it's not the be-all and end-all, but I'm going to tell you where I am.
20:41£249.
20:42Yep.
20:44Would I buy one?
20:45Why would I buy one?
20:48Well, the trouble is, it doesn't do the whole job.
20:52When you said to me, I might have to take, because I've got nothing else to do with it, I've
20:58got to take that and I've got to put that in landfill.
21:00That might be better, but I want to know that I'm doing the right thing.
21:04I don't want to know that I'm doing 80, 70 or 80 billion to the right thing.
21:08I want to know if I'm going to spend £249.
21:11It solves that particular problem.
21:15So, it's just, you know, I'm looking for slam dunk and you didn't give it to me.
21:19So, I'm really sorry, I won't be investing.
21:21I'm out.
21:21Very nice.
21:25Ben, without being too predictable, this is a tough sell.
21:31For this to be truly successful and big, I still think you're going to have to own the IP.
21:36You're a brilliant salesman, but that doesn't necessarily make a business that is investable.
21:41So, I'm going to say that I'm out, but well done and good luck.
21:47Ben.
21:47Yes.
21:49You are an entrepreneur at heart, and it's so clear, abundantly clear to me, that you're going to figure it
21:53out.
21:54Whether it's this or something else.
21:55So, if I could invest in you, that would be a great bet.
22:01But, for me, the IP thing is the sticking point.
22:04It really is.
22:05So, I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the very best, Ben.
22:08Thanks, David.
22:12Okay.
22:15Ben, I'm going to tell you what I said.
22:18You have not convinced me that this business is investable.
22:22You are, but not this business.
22:26So, I'm not going to give you my £86,000 today.
22:31However, if ever you find yourself in London, you're looking for a job, you've got one.
22:36Okay, I'll keep that in mind.
22:37So, I'm not going to invest today.
22:39I'm out.
22:44Ben, I think you're a great entrepreneur.
22:47I love that you're thinking about something that, for me, is a really attractive product.
22:51So, I would actually buy this.
22:53Because, currently, I have a compost bin that sits on my kitchen countertop that is gathering fruit flies.
22:58Every time I open it, there are literally fruit flies coming out of it in my face.
23:03Yeah.
23:03And then I put the bin out, and then the foxes get to it.
23:06Yeah.
23:07Absolutely, I would be buying one of these.
23:09And I don't believe that you have to have an IP in order for you to be successful.
23:14What is your vision for the long term?
23:16Where do you see this going?
23:20I suppose the real answer is in every home that someone has for their food waste.
23:27Ideally, the vision is to eradicate food waste from landfills and to give everyone the opportunity to sustainably dispose of
23:35their food waste.
23:36That is the vision.
23:37That is the vision.
23:38And I do want this to be in every home as standard.
23:41I love that, Ben.
23:42I love that, Ben.
23:43I love that your vision for the future wasn't, I want to sell X amount in X countries.
23:48It was about eradicating food waste and landfills.
23:51And that speaks to the heart.
23:53And that's really amazing.
23:58Ben, I am going to make you an offer because I feel like I could come with you to China
24:03and negotiate better prices.
24:05I think we can tweak some parts of the machinery and we can make this have a competitive edge against
24:12all the other brands out there and also undercut them.
24:18And I could help you promote this, but I would like a higher equity.
24:26So you asked for £86,000 for 20%.
24:29So I will offer you all of the money.
24:32I would like 40% equity.
24:34Wow.
24:35What does that mean?
24:37OK.
24:38Have a think about it.
24:45So, Suze, I think that a lot of what you have to offer is definitely something that I'm missing.
24:56I would love, though, to meet somewhere closer to the middle.
25:00And could you meet me at 32?
25:04I respect you coming back with an alternative.
25:0935?
25:13I'll go 35, yeah.
25:1535 it is!
25:17Yay!
25:19Yay!
25:20Success for Ben.
25:22Let's get the whole nation composting at home.
25:25Yes!
25:26Well done, Ben.
25:27Well done.
25:29He's won the backing of a dragon with the potential to help his food waste contraption rise to the top
25:36of the heap.
25:37Wow.
25:38Yeah.
25:39Obviously delighted to have CZ on board, so I think that she'll bring a lot to the business that I'm
25:44not able to.
25:45I thought he was amazing, genuinely.
25:47I really, really liked him, and I think, regardless of what happens, I want to be in business with that
25:52guy.
25:52Yeah, that one definitely isn't rubbish.
25:56Don't encourage him.
25:58The investment really does validate that there may be something there that Susie sees in me, not just in the
26:03business.
26:04I'm going to go get some food, celebrate with a pint, and I'm excited for the future.
26:23My name's Helen, and this is my husband Phil, and we're from Widness in Cheshire.
26:28Phil and Helen from Widness.
26:31Do it us all.
26:33It's a challenge, working with your wife and being with your wife 24 hours a day, but we've made it
26:39work over time.
26:41Good luck.
26:44He asks for his lunch every day.
26:47Still.
26:48I don't ask for my lunch.
26:52My stomach just churn, then.
26:55It is very nerve-wracking.
26:59But we've practised, and we really want this, so bring it on.
27:16Hi Dragons, I'm Phil Lord.
27:18And I'm Helen Lord.
27:19We are the founders of Rehome, the kitchen, bedroom, bathroom outlet,
27:24and we are seeking £100,000 for 5% equity in our business.
27:29We wanted to bring to you a new way to buy a kitchen, one that literally doesn't cost the earth.
27:36When we purchased our current home, we needed a new kitchen, and we really didn't have a large budget.
27:43So we decided to see whether pre-loved could be a good option for us.
27:47After what can only be described as a long and challenging journey to online marketplaces,
27:53we paid £5,000 for a beautiful big kitchen that would have cost considerably more if it had been purchased
28:01new.
28:02That's when we thought if more people knew this was possible, and had more help to do it, they too
28:08might consider it too.
28:09So over the last 10 years, we've developed our online supported marketplace for buying and selling pre-owned kitchens, bedrooms
28:20and bathrooms.
28:22Rehome is B Corp certified, and we have saved to date 14,000 tonnes of carbon waste.
28:29And we're now looking for the support of a dragon to help us make rehome the go-to verb that
28:35people use when renovating their home.
28:40An online marketplace for second-hand kitchens, bathrooms and bedrooms, intended to be easy on both pockets and the planet,
28:49is the proposition from Phil and Helen Lord.
28:52So we thought we'd show you some examples because pre-owned is a bit of a mystery when it comes
28:58to kitchens.
29:00The couple are seeking £100,000.
29:03So this kitchen sold at just over £13,000.
29:07In return for a 5% share in their business.
29:11But we do estimate if that kitchen was purchased new today, that would cost in excess of £35,000.
29:18And this is the purchaser's results.
29:23So as you can see, it's been completely reconfigured into a different space.
29:29Phil and Helen might be capable of cooking up a dream kitchen for their customers.
29:34But how will they handle a potential grilling in the den?
29:42Phil and Helen.
29:43Yes.
29:44Hi.
29:44Hi.
29:45So at the moment, if I get it right, you are a marketplace.
29:48Correct.
29:48And you take a commission based on sales.
29:51Correct.
29:51And you have no stock.
29:53Correct.
29:53Except for appliances where we do own the appliances as a dropship model.
29:58Yep.
29:59So what percent do you charge commission?
30:03So our commission for pre-owned is 30% plus that.
30:08Yep.
30:08Okay.
30:09So how long have you been doing this?
30:11Um, we incorporated 10 years ago.
30:1510.
30:1610 years ago, yeah.
30:17But, um, I first brought the business to market two years before that.
30:23Wow.
30:24So, give us some numbers for the last three years.
30:28Okay, our financials for 22-23.
30:31Yep.
30:32Turnover was 2 million.
30:33Uh, we had a gross profit of 1.2 million.
30:37Yep.
30:37And a net profit of 450,000.
30:40Yep.
30:41In 23-24, we had turnover of 1.3 million.
30:46Uh huh.
30:46Gross profit of 640,000 and a net loss of 515,000.
30:51Net loss.
30:51Yes, Tuca, a net loss of 515,000.
30:55Mm-hmm.
30:56In 24-25, turnover of 1.8 million.
31:01Yeah.
31:01Our gross profit was 1.2 million.
31:04Yep.
31:05And we were net break even.
31:07And our forecast for this year is 2.5 million turnover,
31:111.6 million gross profit and net break even again.
31:14Right.
31:17So, somewhere, you're spending money.
31:21Yeah.
31:22Well, where's the money going?
31:24So, in 23-24, we completely changed brand
31:29and developed a new website,
31:31and we went to market with that in 23,
31:34hence why we had the loss.
31:36Did you have some sort of consultant to help you do that?
31:39We did, we did.
31:39I'd love to.
31:40We did.
31:41What was going on?
31:42What was wrong with the business in your eyes
31:44that made you pivot and spend nearly the best part of a million pounds?
31:49So, the original website, it had plasters, bolt-ons, you know.
31:55Plugins.
31:55It was a monster.
31:57Right.
31:58And then the opportunity for e-commerce really did come to the fore
32:04for things like appliances, smaller items
32:07that didn't require consultative sale.
32:10Didn't you consider something like Shopify or something like that?
32:13It wasn't recommended to us.
32:16Amazing.
32:17No, you don't make as much money as a consultant
32:19if you recommend effective solutions.
32:22It is a key learn.
32:25Um, Helen, Phil, so I actually just want to pick up on some numbers,
32:30because you're still spending between 1.2 and 1.6 million.
32:33So, what are the answers in the next two years
32:36as why you're spending that much money?
32:38Um, we're spending the money because we realise
32:41we still need to improve our customer experience and our technology.
32:46How far are you down that journey?
32:48Because you've now spent nearly four...
32:51Well, you've spent £4 million on your website or on developing this.
32:55No, we've only spent on the website probably around 800,000,
32:59including consultancy.
33:00Which is still quite a lot.
33:01Oh, right, so there's 3.2 million that you are spending.
33:06You're spending every year 1.2 million to 1.6 to...
33:10Yeah, our overheads, so we've got wage costs, marketing costs,
33:14um, you know, costs for running the business.
33:16Okay, so explain to me the rest of your overheads.
33:20Yeah, so our marketing costs, um, per annum, are approximately £400,000.
33:26And, um, so we've got wage costs of around, um, £200,000 to £300,000.
33:32Okay.
33:34Well, that's £700,000.
33:37That's...
33:37Yeah.
33:37That's less than a half.
33:39What we also have is, um, uh, the cost for running the website,
33:44the licensing fees, et cetera, there's about £100,000 there.
33:48Oh, my...
33:49What?
33:50I know.
33:51I know.
33:52I feel...
33:52I feel what Peter feels now.
33:56I'll come and cry on your shoulder later.
33:59Oh!
34:00Oh!
34:00100,000 monitoring fees?
34:03Who's charging you 100,000?
34:05100,000.
34:05So that's 100,000, uh, for the year.
34:08To do what?
34:09That is an absolute fortune.
34:13You've spent £800,000 on a website with ongoing, inbuilt, ongoing costs of £100,000 a year.
34:21These were experts that advised us to do that.
34:24No.
34:24Of course they were.
34:24Yeah.
34:25So we've got the website.
34:27Yeah.
34:27We've got £100,000 a year.
34:28We're still less than half of the cost of the business.
34:31So what else are we spending money on?
34:32We've got consultancy fees as well.
34:35Oh, my goodness.
34:35Who else are you paying?
34:36So we've got a marketing consultant that is, uh, full-time with us.
34:41How much?
34:43Um, about 90,000 just on the marketing.
34:46Consultant.
34:46Oh.
34:46We spend on advertising.
34:48We spend...
34:50You know, obviously there's a lot of marketing costs at the end of the day associated with
34:53the business.
34:54That's brilliant.
34:56And it's lovely to see you committing resource to marketing, but my goodness.
35:01Do you know what I feel like?
35:02I feel like you are really good, and you're paying other people to kind of knock you off
35:08course.
35:08Yeah.
35:09And actually, last year was when we realised that, and we made some quite sweeping changes
35:17because it could have been a lot worse than it was.
35:24Phil and Helen, you've got a big issue here, in my opinion.
35:28Um, and I, if you don't mind me saying it in a nice way, I think the big issue is
35:31you.
35:32Okay.
35:33I've got a great business on the outset.
35:36Real excitement when I first heard it.
35:38Yeah.
35:38What we've ensued over the last period of time of talking about this business, we've made
35:43this business, in my opinion, completely non-investable.
35:47It's almost impossible to invest in a business like this when you're running it so badly.
35:55So for that reason, sadly, I'm out.
35:58Thank you, Peter.
36:00Phil, Helen, um, you've done a remarkable thing.
36:03And, you know, the fact remains that you've managed to build a business that's turning over
36:08millions of pounds every single year.
36:09So there's clearly some decisions that have been made correctly.
36:14But as an investor, my risk appetite isn't quite there for this business.
36:19So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best.
36:23You know, I, I can really understand where you struggle because I've been exactly there.
36:29I have made so many mistakes in my business.
36:33And in my opinion, it's how you react to those things.
36:37It's how you evolve.
36:39It's how you learn from those things.
36:41That's what's important.
36:43Um, but unfortunately for me, this is not an area that I'm passionate about.
36:47And I don't think I'm the right dragon for you guys.
36:50So for that reason, I'm out.
36:54Appreciate it.
36:58Look, I think you've done a great job.
37:01But you've got, you've been going for 10 years.
37:03Mm-hmm.
37:0410 years is a long time.
37:05And I don't believe that after 10 years, you've got room for an investor.
37:11So for that reason, I'm out.
37:14Okay.
37:15Thank you, Tuca.
37:20Um, I love so much about this.
37:23And I, I really like the both of you as well.
37:26I do like your honesty.
37:27And you've built something amazing here.
37:30I'm not out yet, by the way.
37:32But I do want to hear something.
37:34Mm-hmm.
37:35How are you going to make money?
37:37Because at the moment, you're growing revenue.
37:41Yeah.
37:42But what changes to turn this revenue growth into profit?
37:49So I think when we did the transformation, we, um, had an infrastructure cost that was a baseline.
37:56Now what we need to do is we need to accelerate our sales growth because we're only working at probably
38:0150% efficiency in terms of our cost base.
38:04So we can probably double our sales and not have to increase our costs at the same rate.
38:10And the proven experience, expertise that you guys have, I think you would provide that mentorship and guidance to make
38:17sure that, you know, we're following the right tracks.
38:21Oh, this is, this is difficult because I totally, I do worry about your decision making processes.
38:28And honestly, if I got involved, I can't run your business.
38:32I can be there for the big moments, but I can't help you on a day-to-day decision making
38:37process.
38:38I appreciate that, but we are making decisions, lots of them, every single day.
38:44These few decisions that have been absolutely pivotal were technically two decisions out of multiple.
38:54So.
38:54Big ones though.
38:55Agreed.
38:56But, you know, not, not to provide excuses.
38:59We thought we had gone down the right route.
39:03We genuinely did think that was the right thing to do.
39:06And.
39:07Guys.
39:08Okay.
39:08Okay.
39:09Okay.
39:09Okay.
39:10Okay.
39:10Okay.
39:10Okay.
39:12Um, I love this so much and I like you so much.
39:15I'm going to make you an offer.
39:16Yeah.
39:18We haven't heard it yet.
39:20Hide your cards.
39:21Just put your hands behind your back.
39:24Um, I, I, so I know how I can help you.
39:28However, you need more help than you think you need.
39:32But I do believe that we can turn this into a profitable business and got ahead of the market.
39:39You asked for a hundred thousand pound for five percent.
39:42So I'm going to offer you all the money.
39:45But I want fifteen percent of the business.
39:48Okay.
39:49Thank you, Deborah.
39:54Uh, we appreciate all your comments today.
39:57And, uh, Deborah, thank you very much for the offer.
40:00We're willing to accept.
40:02Oh, excellent.
40:04Good.
40:05Good.
40:06Good.
40:06Good.
40:06Well done.
40:07Great.
40:08Great.
40:09A perfect ending for Phil and Helen, who've secured a hundred thousand pounds.
40:16Oh, I didn't expect that.
40:20As well as the backing of a dragon, with the business nows, to help balance the books.
40:26Deborah, day one, you go through the P&L, you strip out all the consultants and retainers,
40:30and you've got 500k profit.
40:32I've got a pop profit.
40:32Yeah.
40:33You pay a dividend, you've got your money back.
40:35Well done.
40:35I'm so happy you met her.
40:36Boy, boy, do they need you.
40:39As you'll have seen, there was some quite honest opinions.
40:42And then Deborah came right in at the end, saving the day.
40:46So, I'm absolutely delighted that she's agreed to come on board and help us.
41:04I'm Gordon Leatherdale, and my business operates two fantastic consumer brands.
41:09One is for dogs, one is for humans.
41:12Oh, my God.
41:13It confuses everyone, to be blunt about it, including me sometimes.
41:18Dog makery.
41:20There's dog, and then there's gin, and then there's chai tea.
41:26This is going to be ridiculous. I just know it's going to be ridiculous.
41:30A lot of things.
41:33As I step out of the lift, I'll be thinking about being in the jaws of jaws.
41:37It's the terror of getting things wrong, I think, as much as anything else.
41:40But we'll have to wait and see what the dragons think.
41:53Good evening, dragons. My name's Gordon, and I'm the founder of a business that operates two fantastic consumer brands.
41:59And I'm here today seeking £100,000 for 10% of the equity of the business.
42:05What do we do?
42:06Well, brand one, if you like, natural and noble, is all about exploring flavour.
42:10Many people, as you'll probably know, are accustomed to and very comfortable with creating their own food, their own dishes
42:15from scratch, and so on and so forth.
42:17And we say, why not extend that and apply that to making your own drinks and drink flavours at home?
42:22That's where we step in, with our fantastic range of make-your-own drink kits.
42:27Easy to use. They range from sets of botanicals and ingredients that you infuse in liquor.
42:33We have a range of cocktail-making kits and a range of, if you like, novel infusion bags to bring
42:38consumers flavours they wouldn't otherwise try.
42:41And the products are suitable for those who drink alcohol and those who don't.
42:46The second brand is called Dog by the Hob.
42:48It's a fantastic range of dog cookie-making kits and accounts for about 11% of our sales.
42:55Dragons, that ends my pitch.
42:57I'm not looking forward to your questions, but I'm here now.
43:01Dragons, that's it. Would you like to try some products we created earlier?
43:05Gordon, you can smile now.
43:06Thank you very much.
43:08That's terrifying, but thank you.
43:10You did great, you did great. We'd love to try your products.
43:12All right, thank you very much.
43:15A selection of products for flavouring drinks and a kit for making canine-friendly cookies comprise the eclectic offering from
43:25Gordon Leatherdale.
43:27So there's an espresso martini on your left.
43:30It's an alcohol one.
43:31That is alcohol, yes.
43:32And what's that one?
43:32It's a cocoa vanilla chai.
43:35Gordon is seeking £100,000.
43:38If you look onto your chair, you'll see a range of products.
43:41You can try the dog cookies if you want, but you may choose not to.
43:45In exchange for a 10% share in his business.
43:49What do I do with this?
43:50They're the more involved kits, Stephen, and you use those basically to infuse larger quantities of cheap gin or vodka,
43:57basically.
43:59Their curiosity may have been piqued.
44:01That's nice.
44:02So this is a tea bag for your tea?
44:04So it's pudding flavour tea, right, to all the character and flavour of cake with no calories.
44:11But will the dragon's cash prove as easy to raise as their initial interest?
44:21Gordon, hi.
44:23Yes, hello.
44:23I love all these different novel products.
44:26Really fun, really giftable.
44:28Help us understand the connection between flavouring your gin, flavouring your tea, but then dog cookie kit.
44:36Yeah, this is a question I knew that somebody was going to ask it, if not everyone.
44:40To explain the way the business works, we had a big, I hate to use the word boom, but during
44:44Covid, of course, online sales were very strong.
44:47And I was sat there terrified. We'd just moved into a new premises and so on and so forth.
44:51And I thought, well, what the hell do we do when, you know, internet sales drop off?
44:56I suppose I got paranoid and slightly frightened that the business was going to be taken out, taken from under
45:01our feet, as it were.
45:02So as a group of people, we just had a chat and thought, we all own dogs.
45:07And we all thought, well, we'll come up with this idea and just see what happens.
45:10So it's really a question of, I suppose you could call desperation more than anything else.
45:15So you started this brand, the Dog Biscuit brand, because you thought this was going to fail.
45:21And has it failed?
45:22No, I thought this, well, I thought there was the possibility...
45:26Of failure.
45:27Of failure or a massive reduction in turnover.
45:29And you'll see from our figures later, I'm sure one of you will ask, that we saw a big deterioration.
45:33I'm going to ask you now, tell us your figures.
45:35Sure. Fine.
45:36In 2019, we turned over £150,000.
45:40In 2020, we turned over £560,000.
45:44In 2021, we turned over £580,000.
45:49And in 2022, our turnover dropped to £387,000.
45:55In 2023, it was £535,000 turnover.
46:00And last year, the turnover is actually £617,000.
46:04And the net somewhere north of £50,000.
46:09OK, so looking at these numbers, it tells me that it looks like 2020, the COVID year, was the big
46:14boost to your business.
46:16But I can also see that you went down a bit in 2022 when lockdown was over, but you bounced
46:20back up again.
46:21Yes.
46:22Is that when the Dog Biscuits were launched?
46:23Yeah.
46:24I mean, it was at the same time.
46:26But the Dog Biscuits only...
46:27So, for instance, last year, we did £68,000 of the Dog Biscuits with about 11% of the turnover.
46:31So, it's still a very small part of the business.
46:34I don't know if I'm answering your question properly, Mr. Myron. Sorry.
46:37I'm just trying to understand...
46:38I'm still trying to understand why Dog Biscuits, because your business is doing all right.
46:43You're...
46:44I can't disagree with that at all, to be honest, Mrs. Myron.
46:48You can call me Susie, by the way.
46:49Yeah.
46:50Sorry, Susie.
46:51I do apologise.
46:52It's something I think about pretty much every day.
46:54I want to keep it because I enjoy it.
46:58But our focus, I think, has to be on the natural and noble side of things.
47:02And one of the marketplaces we were selling on...
47:04I'm really enjoying this.
47:05You don't have a cigar on it, do you?
47:07But I'm quite...
47:08I can get you a rollie if you want one.
47:10I'm sure we can...
47:12Where's your accent from?
47:14Because you say these terms, somewhat and so forth, they're so...
47:17That's not accent.
47:18What is it?
47:19It is very...
47:20That's just his vocabulary.
47:23Where did you go to school?
47:24I went to a place called King's in Taunton, in Somerset.
47:27Right.
47:28Oh, Somerset.
47:28Give me six.
47:29Deborah Stecker.
47:30In fact, I know King's very well.
47:32Oh, do you?
47:33Oh, yes.
47:34Are you playing rugby?
47:35I was born in Taunton.
47:36Oh, were you?
47:36Yes, I was born in Taunton.
47:37So you must have played against Wellington.
47:39Oh, that's right, yeah.
47:40How old are you?
47:41Do I really have to ask that question?
47:43Yes, you do.
47:43I'm...
47:45I'm 58.
47:45I've just turned 50.
47:46I only ask because my husband was at Wellington school.
47:48Oh, was he?
47:49I'm checking whether or not he played rugby against you.
47:50Would I have played against him?
47:51Uh, he's...
47:52He's 50...
47:53No, he's 50...
47:5558, isn't he?
47:56Oh, Deborah!
47:58I think your husband is 58, isn't he?
48:00Deborah!
48:01Toy boy!
48:01I don't know how old he is.
48:02No-one knows.
48:0460.
48:05Deborah, you got a toy boy?
48:06Yes, he is 60.
48:07He was 60 last year.
48:08Okay.
48:08Well, we always used to come away from Wellington.
48:10Normally with a couple of black eyes and stuff.
48:12They were ferocious.
48:13They were...
48:13They were hard.
48:15So-and-so's.
48:16They were good, though.
48:17They were very good, yeah.
48:18I know.
48:18I know.
48:19Anyway, sorry.
48:20Sorry.
48:21I don't know who I interrupted there, but is anybody else mid-flow or shall I carry on?
48:25No, go for it, Deborah.
48:26I don't know.
48:27I'm half-pissed.
48:29So, what do you want for this business?
48:32Where's the growth?
48:33Is it more of the same?
48:36Or do you see that you've got a sort of hero product here and you're going to build onto it?
48:41Goodness, that's a...
48:42That's...
48:43That's a great...
48:45Sorry.
48:45I...
48:46That's a fantastic question.
48:50Um...
48:51I think...
48:52More of the same, because I think there's still great opportunity to grow our brand in new channels.
48:57And I think particularly with our, if you like, larger sets, because I think they look...
49:01They're much more of a retail proposition, I think, than an online proposition.
49:05And what is your hero product?
49:07You know, there's usually an outstanding one.
49:10Sure.
49:10It's the gin and the rum.
49:12And have you ever done collaborations with people like the Craft Gin Club or that?
49:17Have you ever worked to get more exposure with...?
49:21The honest answer is no.
49:22We get the odd occasion.
49:23We had an interesting conversation with the Natural History Museum.
49:27They wanted to kind of us to do a marry-up, as it were, regarding all the botanicals.
49:31So, but then beyond that, no, we haven't done any other sort of collaborations.
49:34We do get asked from time to time, but...
49:36And are these coming to you or are you going to get them?
49:39They come to us.
49:41They come to us.
49:41And we're working on a project now, actually, which...
49:44It's about 1,500 pudding teas that will go into a goodie bag for some event somewhere in either London
49:49or Birmingham next month.
49:52I'm trying to pinpoint, A, where it is.
49:55Yes.
49:55Where that's coming from.
49:57Yeah.
49:57And where it can go.
49:59Understood.
49:59And it feels a little bit like, at the moment, like you're here, you've got this lovely product and people
50:04sort of accidentally find you.
50:05Correct, yes.
50:06Which might be why you struggle when I say, where do you want this to go?
50:10Yes.
50:10Because I'm not sure you're clear yet, are you?
50:13No, I'm much clearer than I used to be now.
50:16I'm quite pleased with the fact we've navigated the last three years.
50:19But I have a much clearer vision for the business.
50:22And that is about selling product to consumers.
50:24That's the route I want to take.
50:27Whatever we can get ancillary to that would be fantastic.
50:30But I just want to make that clear.
50:33Gordon, just picking up on what Deborah said there, it's a confusing picture.
50:39OK.
50:40And it left me feeling like maybe you're not really driving this business.
50:45Maybe the business is kind of driving you.
50:48Because it doesn't seem to be that there's much intentional strategy taking place here.
50:54What do you want to push?
50:55I want to push the larger botanical sets.
50:58Yeah.
50:58I want to push these products here.
50:59There's a range of whatever it is, seven of them.
51:01There's like some coffee thing there as well.
51:03Yeah, this has a Flavours for Coffee bag which is just used.
51:05And that's something I really want to push to my mind.
51:07It's a fantastic product.
51:08That looks like a slightly different brand to the other products.
51:12Yeah.
51:13We've intentionally done that.
51:14And the reason is I really want to focus on retail with this product.
51:17I want it to stand out on the shelves.
51:18As the picture's gone on and on, the sort of mosaic that's emerged here is you bring a product to
51:24market.
51:24And then because maybe there's fear surrounding that new product or it doesn't fly or it doesn't take off, you
51:29start a new product.
51:29And that's how we end up selling dog cakes.
51:32There's more than a limited truth in that, Stephen, for sure.
51:35Yeah.
51:36I'm going to pull the plaster off.
51:37I like you so much as an individual and as a man that I've struggled to say what I'm going
51:43to say.
51:45Because I just think you're a really, really top guy.
51:47But I'm going to say that I'm out because I just, I don't have clarity on this business and I've
51:51not been able, I've actually got, the more and more we've discussed it, I've got less clarity.
51:55OK.
51:55Thank you very much, Harry.
51:59Good.
52:01I look at this and normally I'd look at an investment.
52:05Yeah.
52:06I'd have a plan in my head.
52:08But this just looks confusing.
52:14So for that reason, I wish you all the best of them out.
52:17Well, thank you very much indeed for your time.
52:24Gordon, I'm looking at you and I think that you are a fantastic product innovator.
52:29And what I actually see here is you've created one, two, three, four, five different businesses.
52:36But my advice would be to pick the one and just be obsessed with it.
52:41Because when you do a bit of everything and you've got brilliant ideas, but when you start something and you
52:48take it to a level, everyone else can come in and copy it.
52:51Because you're not constantly obsessing over how to improve it, how to tweak it, how to make it better.
52:58I'm afraid I'm not the right dragon for you to take this forward because there are too many components and
53:04too many things going on.
53:05Understood.
53:05And for that reason, I'm out.
53:09I couldn't agree less with Susie.
53:11Oh, really?
53:12I couldn't agree less.
53:14You have got one product.
53:15Your product is Spice Mixes.
53:18He sells flavours that go into drinks.
53:21That's what you've got.
53:23But I think you've just got to get on top of your branding and you probably need to tighten your
53:28range up a little bit.
53:29But I think you have to have this range.
53:31You have to be known for something.
53:33And there's not one product there that you can own.
53:36What you can do is own the space and just be the best in that space.
53:42Now, there's a reason why I...
53:44Because I'm getting very passionate about this and I can see exactly what you need to do.
53:49I wish you hadn't asked for £100,000.
53:53Because £100,000 is a significant sum of money.
53:57Understood.
53:57And it is a considered investment.
53:59Yes.
53:59And when I think about what I would have to do to help you...
54:03Yeah.
54:03..there's an awful lot to do.
54:04I think you could share it.
54:05And to put in £100...
54:06Sorry?
54:06I think you could share it.
54:11I think there's an opportunity there.
54:14Might have to give up a large proportion of your company.
54:18But then you might not have a business here.
54:23Can I ask what you're thinking, Peter?
54:24I think, Deborah, spot on.
54:26You are a drinks...
54:27Luxury drinks infusion company.
54:31I think with very considered thought, very...
54:34Actually, not as much work as you think,
54:36I think you could have a great business
54:38because I think that we could make this the leading company in its field.
54:44So I would like to make you an offer.
54:47You came in asking for £100,000.
54:50For 10%.
54:51I'd like to offer you £50,000.
54:53Yeah.
54:55For 20% of your business.
54:58And I'm doing that on the basis that if Deborah would like to do the same,
55:02because it was me that stopped Deborah.
55:03Understood.
55:04Yeah.
55:05Sorry, Deborah.
55:07Can I ask, would you be interested in joining Peter in this?
55:11I would, as long as you were happy with that.
55:22Well, I'd be... I'd be blunt about it.
55:25My accountant told me I was being, what's he say, generous when I started.
55:29I mean, I'd much rather part with... I'd be much more comfortable parting with 20% if you'd be happy
55:33to take 10% each for £50,000.
55:35Now, it's... Do you know what's really scuppered you? It's the £100,000.
55:40Okay.
55:40Yeah.
55:40I mean, you know, I'm not sure I want you to give up 40% of your business.
55:44So, and that's really, really important.
55:46So, absolutely, I'd be happy, but only when it feels right for you, and if it feels right for you.
55:52And if it doesn't, then absolutely you shouldn't take it, accept the offer.
55:57I've got to be honest, I think 40% would be too much.
56:00I...
56:01This sounds like a ridiculous question, and you can take me behind the bike chairs and beat the hell out
56:07of me later,
56:08but I'd be much more comfortable.
56:09I think I would stretch to 30% if that was workable for either of yourselves.
56:15Gordon, I'm going to make this easier.
56:17Yeah, I don't think it worked.
56:18You are uncomfortable about this.
56:21And it's not good.
56:22We're just not.
56:24Sometimes...
56:24Understood.
56:25..it just doesn't meet.
56:26And the worst thing anybody can do is get into a business relationship
56:30where one of the parties feels really uncomfortable.
56:32Sure.
56:33So, on that basis, I won't be investing and I'm out.
56:36Thank you very much indeed.
56:37And, Gordon, likewise, on that basis, sadly, I'm going to have to say that I'm out.
56:42But I'm going to wish you all the very best.
56:44Thank you very much.
56:45Good luck, Gordon.
56:46Oh, bless you, Gordon.
56:47Yeah, thank you. You're a lovely man.
56:49See you. Bye.
56:50Best of luck.
56:52Gordon must depart the den empty-handed.
56:56A two-dragon deal was on the table,
56:59but the entrepreneur felt the gulf inequity was simply too wide to bridge.
57:07You know what, I wanted to shake him.
57:11Quintessentially a British gentleman.
57:12Yes.
57:13But the opportunity and the doors the two of you would have opened for him,
57:16even at 40%.
57:17I wanted to go up and just be like, come on!
57:19He didn't feel it.
57:21And the worst thing you can do...
57:23Yeah.
57:23..is having an unwilling partner.
57:26It would have been amazing to have Peter and Deborah on board,
57:31but I think ultimately giving away 40% of the business
57:34was just too much to ask, rightly or wrongly.
57:38I'll find out in a few years' time.
57:51Next time, they seemed in shock.
57:54Oh, please, please.
57:56I'm not the biggest fan in the world of the deals that drop.
57:59I'm like, why, why?
58:00Like, I still need to understand why.
58:03It's good to know you have a plan B.
58:04You should always have a plan B.
58:06Do you agree with that?
58:07Because I don't.
58:09He agrees with it.
58:10I can't work out whether you're looking for an investment
58:13or you're looking for a dragon to dress up as a chicken.
58:16A bit of both.
58:39Nice to meet you.
58:43It's a showdown.
58:44I'll see you next time.
58:44I'll see you next time.
58:46I'll see you next time.