- 1 week ago
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00:13Hi my name is Becky and this is my lovely wife Kelsang we both are from London we have been
00:19together for 16 years 17 actually 17 okay you ready tell well yeah let's do it we have a lot
00:29riding on today because we have been working on this for the past year but we
00:33have been thinking about this for even longer do you know what dragons den
00:38wouldn't be dragons down without a toilet product would it you see that
00:43but that sticks out yeah you stick that up your bum we just need the right
00:51dragon and investment to get everything running I think because our product
00:56being a bit more sustainability focused Debra would be great
01:08hi dragons my name is Kelsang and my name is Becky we are the founders of Chakao
01:13and we're here today to ask for a hundred thousand pounds for 13% of our business
01:18did you know that it takes substantial amount of water to make one toilet roll
01:23we are cutting down millions and millions of tree to produce toilet paper and meet
01:28the global demand now dragons when we go to the toilet we wash our hands why not
01:34our bum in our travels we've seen bidets being used a lot across Europe and Asia
01:40however we were surprised at the lack of its adoption here in the UK our product
01:45can be fit into your toilet turning your traditional toilet into a freshwater bidet
01:49we also have a travel bidet when you are traveling or when you're out and about
01:54so dragons we would like to invite you on this journey with us to fight against skid marks and
01:59help keep Britain's bottoms clean I would like to give you a quick demo of how the video works seriously
02:08we won't be requiring any volunteers oh a device for converting an existing toilet into a bidet alongside a
02:18portable version for travelers is the proposition from Bikki Chetri and Kelsang Shakya
02:25this is our dual bidet and this one has a self nozzle cleaning functionality we also have the
02:34the travel bidet this is super easy for you you fill it with water then you have a portable bidet
02:42very simple
02:43Bikki and Kelsang are seeking a hundred thousand pounds in exchange for 13 percent of their business
02:50I just feel the strength of the yeah sure on here Debra not on TV so what am I doing
02:56so if you press the
02:57H button and then just and then aim at oh oh I see oh right that really nearly got me
03:05you know that in the face
03:07their dragon of choice has narrowly avoided a drenching but Bikki and Kelsang are about to be
03:13deluged with inquiries
03:19so my first question because you said it quite quickly because you might be quite nervous
03:23what's your name Kelsang Kelsang yeah and Bikki Bikki yeah and the name of the company
03:30check out check out yes why so check in our language means bum which is Nepalese so we just
03:39added an out so it sounds good it sounds like a verb you can use it to say you know
03:44did you check out
03:45it or do you want to check out I've got a better name for you yeah sure but straw but
03:52straw yes okay
03:54okay do you like it yeah I like it do you prefer it not bad do you prefer it yeah
04:00no I like it
04:00it's a spray butt spray would be better no anyway anyway while they're discussing the names of your
04:07product let's get back to you so have you sold any yes so we are um essentially pre-revenue but
04:15we did
04:16do a soft launch in January and we have sold around 53 units so far okay lovely um how much
04:23would the
04:24fitted unit cost 69.99 the travel bidet is 29.99 and which what market I mean you're absolutely right
04:34um the UK really isn't necessarily a user of bidets it's just not in our DNA and in our nature
04:42so what
04:44makes you think that this is something that would be adopted by a nation that actually already is showing
04:49that they have resistance to using bidets so I think traditionally most British people have seen
04:55the bidets in Europe and we believe that because people don't know something like this exists they
05:03don't even know what to look for so a big part of our strategy in terms of market marketing will
05:08be
05:09educating people about why they should use a bidet it is more sustainable than toilet paper like we've said
05:15it is the more hygienic option and we know wet wipes are really bad for the environment clogging up the
05:20pipes and all sorts but also cost saving
05:24Vicky and Khao San hi yes hello
05:26it's an interesting product
05:29um I I get the use case obviously I get what you're what you're trying to do
05:34I'm not overly convinced about a bum spray basically
05:38great you will be convinced once you use it
05:42I think if you're in the situation where you know and I've been that it been in that situation before
05:48there's no bidet
05:49but I'd go and get some tissue and put it under the cold tap or whatever
05:55and then I'd wipe my bottom no one wants to know mate
05:58no one wants to know
05:59I don't want to know this I'm sure nobody else does
06:02so you know what I mean so yeah yeah there's places where you know you think oh dear okay
06:06and I need to clean up here so you know you're using tissue
06:11you get what I mean what if the tissue breaks
06:13I'm not sure I'm gonna walk into the toilet
06:15what if the tissue breaks
06:16what do you mean right when you wet tissue and then you wipe your bum with it
06:20it's gonna leave it
06:21you're laughing and yet you've done it before
06:26so I'm not convinced I'm gonna walk into the toilet with this
06:30it's more for camping if you're traveling with kids
06:33can I just ask what fellow dragons would would you take that into a toilet
06:42you know what's interesting is the travel use case I actually disagree with
06:48because I think when you're backpacking and you have such limited space
06:50you are gonna go a little bit Bear Grylls do you know what I mean
06:53which means you're not gonna carry things like this
06:55you're gonna sacrifice luxuries
06:56yeah
06:56for food and water
06:57that would be a luxury would it
06:58you'd put water there you wouldn't put your butt straw
07:00so just to get back to your point about using a toilet paper
07:04to wet the toilet paper and use it
07:05yes we have all done that
07:08the thing is what we're also trying to say is toilet paper production takes a lot of water
07:12to produce cutting down lots of trees for the pulp
07:15what toilet paper I think
07:16if we're gonna look to try and cut out toilet paper
07:19I don't think that's the answer
07:23guys
07:25is that your painted design or is that off the shelf in from China
07:29so all of the bidets are not our design
07:33the design already exists
07:35so if you I mean we'll be honest
07:37if you go on to Amazon you will find bidet attachment like this
07:41on the market
07:42and we have found that actually on Amazon year on year
07:46people searching for bidet or bidet attachment terms have been growing
07:50so there is a market for us it proves that there is a demand
07:54what we are trying to do is we are trying to get to the people who don't know that this
08:00product
08:00you've answered my question I'm gonna ask another question
08:02okay
08:03if it's produced in China which probably is
08:07once the Chinese get to know the market they'll market that directly
08:12before we know it there's five companies all selling the same at various prices
08:18no I mean we understand but at the same time what we want to do is
08:23even though there are multiple retailers selling it on Amazon
08:27the people who are already there
08:29they are not doing the part of going out and finding customers
08:33the products that are there are for people like us
08:36who already knew that something like this exists because we grew up using bidets
08:40yes
08:40can I just ask then does that mean that the reason you're gonna win
08:43is because you're gonna be better at marketing
08:45precisely
08:46and also we're gonna be the first company to create awareness against toilet paper
08:49and educating people to shift from toilet paper habits to bidet
08:54so that's the entire game you're saying
08:55yes
08:55the product already exists it's not new it's not proprietary
08:57absolutely
08:58you're gonna win because you're gonna be better marketeers
09:00precisely
09:01have you got marketing in your background
09:04not either of us
09:05but we do have someone who works specifically in marketing and marketing online
09:11for me it's terrifying when someone comes into the den and say the reason we're gonna win
09:15is purely based on us being better marketeers
09:20but yet both people that stand in front of me are not marketeers
09:26that is your entire business as you proposed it
09:30I think what's gonna happen if I'm being completely honest with you
09:34is I think you're gonna waste a lot of money trying to build a brand
09:38the only way you wouldn't waste that money
09:40is if you had something that was really defensible here in terms of patent or IP
09:45but you don't
09:46so it's just a price war
09:48it's a marketing game
09:49it's a horrible game to be in
09:50it's a horrible game to be in
09:53so I'm gonna say that I'm out but I wish you the very very best
09:58Rikki
10:00Rikki
10:24Rikki
10:27so I won't be investing and I'm out
10:34guys I think you're great
10:37but you haven't thought this through
10:40I can assure you if somebody wants to buy this
10:43they'll Google it
10:45and they'll do a price comparison
10:48and they'll see the same product cheaper
10:52the consumer is savvy
10:55you cannot pull the wall over their eyes
10:58so for that reason I'm out
11:01thank you very much
11:01thank you
11:04Rikki Kelsen
11:06I think you've got something with that
11:09so I would urge you to go away
11:10see if you can get one of the big players to take that on
11:14you know go and talk to the people at home base B&Q
11:17you can do that yourself
11:19and see whether it starts to sell
11:21and when you get some traction
11:21the bum spray
11:25manual bum spray
11:26I think it's
11:28you know it's an interesting product
11:29but I'm not really
11:30I'm not totally sold on it
11:33so sadly today
11:34I'm gonna have to say that I'm out
11:36thank you
11:37but I urge you to go and carry on with that product
11:40thank you very much
11:43it is it's interesting
11:45and one of the issues which you haven't mentioned
11:47which I think is probably one of the biggest issue is space
11:50yes correct
11:51a bidet required
11:52it's like a second toilet isn't it
11:54and actually you know where accommodation
11:57is generally getting smaller
11:59this could well be the answer
12:01but your ask is quite chunky
12:03for an early
12:05for £100,000 this isn't a punt
12:07this is a business that needs
12:09you need to have demonstrated today
12:11this is a business that has a really clear
12:15future going forward
12:17and I still
12:19sit with this concern
12:21that somewhere in our DNA
12:24it's just not our behaviour
12:25it's just not the way
12:27British people behave
12:30or the thing that they look to do
12:32and therefore your job of convincing them
12:35that they need to change something really fundamental
12:39is going to be enormous
12:42yeah
12:43so on the one hand
12:44£100,000 feels like a serious investment
12:46on the other hand
12:47it is nowhere near enough
12:49and I'm afraid
12:51it doesn't feel like
12:53it doesn't feel good to me
12:54as an investment
12:56so I won't be investing
12:58I'm out
12:59thank you very much
13:00thank you
13:01thank you
13:01good luck
13:01good luck with everything
13:02thank you very much
13:05sadly for Biki and Kelsang
13:07they must leave the den empty handed
13:10but despite their failure to secure a deal
13:13the couple remain convinced
13:15their bidets will be more than a flash in the pan
13:19we did our best
13:20we did our best
13:21they're going to regret
13:25they have done well
13:26but yet they've got a long way to go
13:27anyway I'm going to go and give this a go
13:31are you?
13:31yeah
13:32I'll tell you if it works
13:33let me get on
13:46hello my name is Guy Sandoloski
13:48and I'm joined today by Shiv Sivakumar
13:50and we're the co-founders of Omni
13:52how are you guys feeling?
13:54yeah
13:55I feel better that we have Ben with us
13:57me too
13:57right Ben?
13:58we both are a little bit pet obsessed I'd say
14:01especially dogs
14:02I love dogs
14:03and it's really at the core of what we're doing it on me
14:07formulated dog food
14:08got some here would you like?
14:10no please I wouldn't want to eat yours
14:14didn't smell great
14:17oh it's big so much
14:21there's a dog coming
14:22there's a dog coming
14:24dogs are the best
14:25I mean they are
14:26like
14:26you're having a bad day
14:28you just go and say hi to a dog
14:29and you feel
14:29or at least I feel better
14:31and we feel so lucky to be dedicating our careers
14:35to helping pets in general
14:36and of course dogs are included in that
14:46hello dragons my name is Shiv Sivakumar
14:49I'm Dr Guy Sandoloski
14:50together we're the founders of
14:52Omni
14:53we're here today asking for £75,000
14:56in exchange for 1% of our business
14:59I'm a small animal vet that's been in practice for just shy of 10 years
15:03and I've seen a number of nutrition related diseases in our pets
15:06at Omni we believe that novel proteins like those derived from yeast, pulses, algae and soon lab grown meat can
15:15be healthy and as delicious as traditional meat based diets
15:19in just over 2 years we've generated £2.5 million in sales and over 80% of our customers are
15:26subscribers
15:28we'd love for a dragon to come on board and bring the benefits of Omni to more pets across the
15:33country
15:33my own black Labrador Bondi lived to 17 years of age and I would have loved to bring him here
15:40today to show you how much he loved our products
15:42but sadly he's not here but instead we've invited his best pal
15:46so Ben would you like to come out
15:49Ben was already focused on that
15:55a vet formulated take on pet food containing plant based and alternative proteins such as lab grown meat
16:03is the offering from Guy Sandalovsky and Shiv Sivakuma
16:08is that dog inhaling or eating that food?
16:11I would say a bit of both
16:14they're asking for £75,000 in exchange for 1% of their company
16:20I'm afraid you have finished that bowl of food now
16:24Guy and Shiv's product may have gone down a treat with Ben
16:27Thank you so much Ben, Mary, really appreciate it
16:31but will their company's hefty price tag prove as palatable to Peter Jones?
16:41Can't not but ask my first question with the valuation straight away
16:48Not often I do but obviously it's quite striking
16:51£7.5 million valuation, £2.5 million of sales over two years
16:56So talk me through the last 12 months
16:59Well the last year we did £1.2 million in 2023
17:04This year we're on track to do £3 million with a gross profit of £1.5 million
17:08and a net loss of £290,000
17:10Net loss of £290,000
17:12That's right
17:13So £1.2 million last year
17:15That's right, yeah
17:16So seven times revenue is your valuation
17:19Yeah
17:20And what's the forecast in the next 12 months?
17:23So in the next 12 months we're expected to do £5 million in sales
17:27with a gross profit of £2.5 million
17:30and we will also make a profit in the next 12 months of £300,000
17:33And what's the reason for going £1.2 to £5 million?
17:38What are you doing to do that?
17:40We've just secured a new line of funding as well for the business
17:43So we've secured nearly £2 million of funding at a valuation of £10 million
17:48So we've come in here giving you a discount on that valuation
17:50because we value that the Dragons can bring more
17:52Sorry, what's the £2 million of funding?
17:54From additional venture capital funds and high net worth individuals who are investing now
17:59And you're offering it to us at £7.5?
18:01Yeah
18:02Wow, shouldn't we be so lucky?
18:08Guys, I'm assuming the 1% is for my other Dragons
18:12and I'm in for 30%
18:14because I don't get out of bed for 1%, you know that
18:17We've heard that, but we feel that we've validated our concept
18:20We've validated a lot of losses, I know that
18:25What we haven't established is
18:28you're doing this turnover, how you're doing it, where you're doing it
18:31So how are you getting your sales?
18:34Yeah, so 90% of our revenue comes from our online store
18:39and about 10% come from Amazon
18:41So online, average basket value is how much?
18:46Around £45 to £50
18:47And your cost of acquisition?
18:49Around £40
18:50About £40?
18:52Yeah
18:53Is that good business?
18:55The lifetime value of our customers is incredibly long
18:58Can I tell you something?
19:01All that jargon was great over Covid
19:05Lifetime value of this and that
19:07Online is down generally
19:09Can you tell me, I'm interested in lifetime value
19:12because I think that's really important
19:13So would you mind finishing that sentence about lifetime value?
19:17We've been running the business for nearly 2 years
19:19and we've always managed to maintain a customer acquisition cost of about £40
19:23And over a 2 year period, we're seeing a £400 lifetime value of our customers
19:27That's because we're holding on to a lot of people who try the food
19:30That's fantastic!
19:31Yeah, I was about to say that's absolutely brilliant
19:33That's fantastic, Tuka
19:34Turning £40 into £400
19:36That's just in 2 years
19:38So I think if you have a dog and you find a diet that works for them
19:41In theory you will continue to feed that for the lifetime of the pet
19:44So let's say that's 10, 12 years on average
19:46400 is actually not very much, it's just 2 years
19:49Consider 12 years
19:51But you are paying because all due respect guys
19:53You're making £3 million turnover
19:58£1.5 million gross
20:01You're going to end up with £2.91
20:04So where's the £1.2 going in your overheads?
20:09The majority of it is fueling marketing
20:11Because we understand this is a game where you have to invest a lot to educate the customer
20:15To make them understand about our products
20:17They come on board, they love the food and they stay with us for years
20:23So all this talk about finance is not surprising, it's quite a punchy valuation
20:28I get where you are, actually one of my most successful businesses came into the den
20:32With a plan to say, you know, we're spending a lot of money on marketing
20:35Because we're going to own this marketplace
20:38So I completely get that
20:39I'm not saying I agree with the evaluation to be clear
20:41But I do understand that you've got a reasonably clear space in front of you
20:47And you need to make sure you own that space
20:50Because this is becoming a very interesting space
20:54So there are going to be a lot of people trying to own it
20:58I think I just heard that they're now for the first time ever using lab-grown meat in pet food
21:05You're using it, was that you that I read the article on?
21:09It might have been us, it would have been us
21:11Interesting, so what is lab-grown meat?
21:14So imagine a chicken breast basically growing in a vat and you're just cutting off chicken
21:20And that chicken breast just keeps growing and growing and growing
21:23You never have to slaughter or rear livestock
21:27You can just use that as a virtually infinite source of meat
21:30So that product there is our first kind of iteration of that
21:34And it's actually a cat food product
21:37You know, we know that dogs can thrive without animal proteins
21:39But actually cats being obligate carnivores do seem to require certain nutrients
21:45That you can only find from animal tissues
21:47And that's why we're using that protein source for that product
21:50And, you know, as one of the first movers in this space
21:53And that we've applied for a pattern for that formulation
21:55You know, we do lead with science and we intend to continue that line with our other products
22:00I don't do it all alone
22:01We work with Nottingham Vet School where I trained
22:04We work with several consultants and experts in the field
22:10Guys! Hi!
22:12Can I just say, you've presented exceptionally well
22:15Thank you, thank you, we're definitely really nervous
22:17Well you should have been coming in with a 7.5 million valuation
22:20That was the first thing you were going to get hammered for
22:23And you've kept your co really well
22:24So what's the runway look like through to exit?
22:27Yeah, it's a great question
22:29So, what we see as a long-term sort of exit pathway
22:32Is to become a very attractive target for a bigger pet food company within the space
22:38What does that mean then in terms of exit? What is that exit?
22:41What does that exit look like?
22:43In terms of...
22:44Timing and value
22:45We're expecting a 3-5 year period
22:48In terms of value, we're looking at at least a minimum of 30 million of sales
22:52When we would be a target for an acquirer
22:55So 30 million, so in 3 years you'll be doing 30 million of sales
22:58That's right
22:59And selling for how much?
23:01Roughly, let's say, five times multiple at least
23:04Five?
23:05But your multiple today is seven times?
23:07Yeah
23:09I mean, seriously, that's...
23:11That's quite unattractive
23:13Guys, if you think a dragon's been particularly vicious
23:15You can tell them that they're out
23:23I get really, really annoyed when people overvalue their businesses
23:28I really do
23:30I could sit here and say so many great things about what you've done
23:34And yet I can't get my head around the response to the valuation
23:39And the exit value
23:41So for that reason I'm going to say that I'm out
23:47Guys
23:49Look, I'm giving you a hard time
23:51That's because the valuation in my...
23:54The way I would value businesses
23:56If I took your...
23:58Your metrics
24:00I'd be a multi-billionaire
24:02You're delusional about what this is really worth
24:07So I'm out
24:07Thank you
24:09Thank you
24:12Guys
24:13Hi
24:14Let me tell you where I'm at
24:16I absolutely love the business
24:17And more than anything, I think you two are absolutely outstanding
24:22I also don't think that your valuation is obscene
24:25Based on all of the justification that you've given
24:28But realistically
24:29And I look at this and I wouldn't be motivated to be involved in your business for 1%
24:34I would be wanting at least the 3 or 4%
24:37I don't know that I love it enough to be putting 300 grand in
24:40To be justifiably buying that sort of space
24:43So I'm just going to declare that I'm out
24:45Thank you very much
24:46Best of luck
24:47Thank you
24:49So guys, I...
24:52I love it
24:54I like you
24:55I think you've been pretty faultless so far
24:58In terms of how you're approaching a market
25:01It's a new market, you have to educate people
25:04You need money to do that
25:06But you're in there early
25:07You've got an open space
25:10So I think you are really impressive
25:14And I'm not doing this
25:15Of course it ticks a lot of my boxes
25:18So you won't be surprised to hear that I'm going to make you an offer
25:23And I'm going to offer you all of the money
25:24I'm going to ignore your current valuations
25:26Because I'm going to make my own valuation
25:29And I want 3% of the business
25:34Thank you
25:35Thank you, yeah
25:39I have come to learn in the Den
25:41That there's kind of two central things that form my investment thesis
25:45Which is the product and how much I'm passionate about the space
25:48And how much I can relate to the problem
25:50The second one is the entrepreneurs
25:55Because different entrepreneurs could have walked through this door
25:57With the exact same product
25:58And I would have valued the business entirely different
26:01If I didn't think the two people sitting in front of me were killers
26:05And I've come to learn from my Dragon's Den investments that have performed exceptionally well
26:08That the single most important factor has actually been
26:12Are they killers?
26:16And I think you guys are
26:20So I have to try and invest in this business
26:23I have to
26:24So I'm going to make you an offer for all of the money for 3% of the business as
26:28well
26:30Thank you
26:31Can we have a moment with the wall?
26:33With the wall?
26:34All right
26:37The £7.5 million price tag hasn't prevented the entrepreneurs from receiving two rival bids
26:46That's basically the two dragons that we wanted
26:50But Deborah Meaden and Stephen Bartlett both want 3% equity
26:54Triple the amount originally on the table
27:00Shall we go back to them and say
27:02Would you be happy to share it?
27:05And negotiate them down
27:06Yeah, I can
27:07Thank you
27:15Thank you both for the offers
27:18We would love it if you would both consider an investment into Omni together
27:22Is that something you would be open to?
27:27Certainly
27:28Yeah, absolutely
27:28And we would ask
27:30Would you be able to come on a slightly lower percentage to share that?
27:35We would ask if you would consider 2.5%
27:401.25 each, is it?
27:45We need to have a conf lab
27:49To be honest, it's still a fair deal
27:52It is a fair deal
27:58What?
27:59Yeah
28:01God, you're good
28:05Right
28:06I don't want to speak on behalf of Stephen
28:08But we've just had a chat
28:10And...
28:12So yeah, that's the answer
28:14You've got a deal
28:15Well, that's it
28:16Thank you very much
28:17Thanks guys
28:19Success for Shiv and Guy
28:22Very nice
28:23Breathe out now, relax
28:26Their valuation may have polarised the den
28:31But ultimately, the duo have secured the backing of two top dogs
28:39Oh my god
28:43Wow
28:44I don't think either of us knew what to expect, did we?
28:48No
28:48We hoped we would get a dragon
28:51And to have two with us
28:53And the ones we came for, the ones we wanted
28:55It's just, it's amazing
28:58Great deal, based on backing those two individuals
29:01It's a great business, it's a great space
29:03And two really, really good entrepreneurs
29:07Bye-bye, Den
29:08Bye-bye, Den
29:19Wow
29:21Feels a bit surreal now we're here
29:22It does feel surreal, doesn't it?
29:24Hi, my name's Jake and this is my partner Faye
29:27And we both live in Devon
29:28We've got this
29:31We met on the bus on the way to college
29:34They were all lovers
29:37Jake took the mick out of my socks
29:39And yeah, we had mutual friends in common
29:41And it sparked from there
29:44So we're here today presenting to the dragons
29:47Our invention to help encourage people to save bees
29:51Do you know what, I was thinking of getting bees at home
29:54You're thinking of getting them?
29:56Have you got them?
29:57Well, we've had them for ages
29:59But they were taken out by the wasps
30:03Wasp wars
30:06Bees are such an important part of our environment
30:09And we are so passionate to present this to the dragons
30:12We think it's definitely something they're going to want to invest in
30:20Hello dragons, we're buzzing to bee here today
30:22My name is Jake
30:24My name is Faye
30:25And we are the founders of Bee Vibe
30:27We are here today asking for £80,000
30:29In return for 8% of our bee-saving business
30:33In 2018 Faye and I were on holiday in Cornwall
30:36When we came across a tired bee on the pavement
30:38There were no flowers nearby
30:40And I recalled my grandma's advice on how a drop of sugar water
30:43Can give a tired bee a boost
30:45We quickly made up a solution at a nearby cafe
30:47And to our amazement, the bee took a few sips
30:49Buzzed its wings and flew away
30:51In that moment, we felt like heroes
30:55Inspired by that spontaneous encounter
30:57We started learning about bees and the challenges they face
31:00A bee's main food source is flowers
31:02And since the 1930s, the UK has lost 97% of its wildflower meadows
31:0935 bee species are currently under threat of extinction
31:13That is why we invented our flagship product, the Bee Revival Kit
31:16A keyring containing a small bottle of bee food syrup
31:19For the next time you see a bee in need
31:21Our product range has expanded to include bee hotels and bamboo keyrings
31:25All hand-assembled in our Devon-based studio
31:27To date, we have sold over 116,000 keyrings
31:31And generated in excess of £1 million revenue
31:35Now, we'd like to expand our impact by growth to the US and European markets
31:39We'd love for you to join us on that mission
31:42We have created some bee-spoke samples for you
31:45And welcome any questions you have
31:47Thank you
31:49Loving all the bee puns
31:50Love all the...
31:52Thank you
31:53An emergency pick-me-up for pooped-out cross-pollinators
31:57Is the core offering from Faye Whitley and Jake Powell
32:00Thank you
32:03The couple are seeking £80,000 in return for 8% of their bee-related business
32:10But will the dragons share the pair's passion for all things apian?
32:18Jake, Faye, I'm almost buzzing already myself
32:24Really good, wow
32:25So is this basically like it's a defibrillator for bees?
32:28Exactly what we need
32:30We get bee CPR quite a lot, yeah
32:31It is, you know, it's a drop of sugar and water
32:35In an emergency when no flowers are nearby
32:38Which is unfortunately more often than not
32:40And very common in cities
32:41Until you said the numbers, I was genuinely thinking
32:45Okay, that's quite niche
32:47And then you say, we've generated over a million pounds
32:51That's... that's crazy
32:54Obviously people love bees as much as we do, which is great
32:57So just take me through that
32:59So when did you sort of launch?
33:01So we registered the business in 2019
33:03And in that year we turned over £21,000 and £3,600 net
33:09Year two, we turned over £121,000 and a £58,000 net
33:14Year three, we turned over £251,000 and a net of £127,000
33:21In year four, we turned over £237,000 with a net of £39,000
33:27And a year just gone, we've turned over £447,000 with a net of £88,000
33:35It's a really wonderful thing you're doing
33:36I think we all understand the importance of bees for the broader ecosystem
33:40So it's a really wonderful business
33:42How does this become a big business?
33:46So much so that it can be an investable business that delivers a return
33:51Or is this not something that you want to become a big business?
33:54And do you have a different vision for the future?
33:56Yeah, so our growth so far has been really organic
33:59People sharing videos on social media
34:02And we've spent like nearly next to nothing on marketing to our community base
34:07And we just fill with like a really great marketing strategy
34:10And a distribution model into the US and Europe
34:14That this business and its impact is really scalable
34:17And that's our dream for it really
34:21Okay, and what do you want?
34:24What do you want out of life from this business?
34:26What is the big ambition, the big goal?
34:29Personally?
34:30Yeah
34:31We just really wanted to make an impact
34:34I always dreamt of running my own business
34:37But I wanted to be paired with something that really meant a lot
34:41My previous career was in fashion design
34:43I worked for a number of companies on the high street
34:46And I loved my job
34:48But I wanted to do something that had environmental meaning
34:52And so this, it fulfils us so much
34:56And the bigger I watch it grow
34:58Like the prouder I become of us and the community
35:01That we've surrounded with it
35:05Hi, so you probably know I've had, I've kept bees
35:09We have probably a dozen species of bees in our garden
35:13So I'm not going to ask you a lot around the why
35:18Yeah, okay
35:18I get it, totally get it
35:21And actually, there is a massive market in the US
35:25The US has lost nearly half its population of honeybees last year
35:30So I completely see where you have got lots of opportunity
35:35Do you think you've reached a plateau in the UK?
35:39Or do you think there's areas of growth within the UK?
35:42I think there's still areas of growth in the UK
35:45Because as Faze mentioned, like the growth so far has been very much organic
35:49And if we can implement a strong marketing strategy on social media
35:53I think that's going to help blow it up a lot quicker
35:56So do you see that in selling more product or expanding range, or both?
36:00Both, yeah
36:01And do you have ideas for new product range?
36:04Yeah, we do
36:05So they're all along the lines of bee saving specifically
36:09Staying to our niche
36:10But also expanding the range of getting people outdoors
36:14You know, putting on that backpack, laying down your picnic blanket
36:17Sitting in nature
36:18Like I do think that this could grow into like a garden and homeware range
36:23As well as being a saving the bee kit
36:26How's the garden and homeware?
36:28I'm a bit confused
36:31It would seem weird to me that bee vibe now becomes, you know, a bench and a...
36:35No, of course
36:37Yeah, it's more like accessories
36:39Yeah, so bee themed accessories you think as well
36:41Right, books!
36:42Yes!
36:43Absolutely
36:44I really want to write a bee pun book
36:46We have had that in the pipeline
36:49It's interesting, when you pitch to investors
36:51There's a couple of motivators on this side of the fence
36:57And those motivators, I break them down as reward and ideology
37:01But what you're leading this pitch with is ideology
37:04Which is doing this is good for the planet, doing this is good for the bees
37:07The part that I'm missing is the reward part
37:11So the reward for us as an investor
37:14Outside of ideology, outside of it's good for the bees
37:17What does that reward look like in your view for us as investors in five years' time?
37:22So we have forecasted ahead if we were to receive the investment
37:26Okay
37:26So next year we would be looking at turning over 800,000
37:31The year after would be 1.2 million
37:33And the year after that would be 1.6
37:35You would make your money back within the first 12 months
37:39And then beyond that would be how big we could scale it together
37:44I'm kind of thinking, you know, I'm sitting here
37:46It's like a Jerry Maguire moment
37:49It's like, show me the money, show me the honey
37:51It's kind of where this business could go
37:54It feels quite sort of cottage industry, quite niche, quite small
37:57I can see you getting to this sort of
38:00800,000, 900,000 in revenue, which is great
38:02But when you look at your forecast
38:04You've just added 400,000 a year for the next three years
38:08So being as nice as I possibly can
38:11It doesn't feel that well thought through
38:14So I'm sorry that I'm going to say that I'm out
38:20The issue I've got is
38:23I just, I just don't feel like it's right
38:25For you to give any of your business away
38:28But I think what you need is
38:29You just need a little bit of help and support and direction in the right way
38:33You don't need, and better still, you don't want an investor
38:37Because as soon as this becomes about an investment proposition
38:40And about profit and cash returns
38:42It'll take away from what you're trying to do
38:45So, I'm actually not sorry that I'm going to tell you that I'm out
38:50But I wish you all the best in moving forward in the business
38:53Because I think you're going to go and do some great things
38:55Thank you
38:56Thank you
38:59Guys, I'll tell you where I am
39:02I love the pair of you
39:04But...
39:05Do I want to go on this journey with you?
39:08This is your journey
39:10And that's what I'm questioning
39:15Your passion for this is so great
39:18But I think that if I invested, I'd want to be too involved
39:23You'd want to kill me
39:24And say, Tuka, why are you getting so busy?
39:27We're doing very well the way we're doing it, you know?
39:29OK
39:30And for that reason, I don't see me fitting in to your passion
39:37So I'm out
39:37Thank you
39:38Thank you, Tuka, thank you
39:44I think what you're doing is fantastic
39:46And I would bet so much on you
39:49Continuing on the trajectory that you're on
39:51And doing a world of good in the process over the next 10, 20 years
39:55Whether this is an investment for me is another question
39:58And I've kind of arrived at the conclusion that it's not an investment today
40:02But I'm so glad that I got to learn about the importance of bees in the broader ecosystem from you
40:07So, thank you so much
40:08I'm going to say that I'm out and I wish you the best
40:10Thank you
40:11Thank you
40:11You see, I think
40:17I'm often saying to businesses that we need to redefine profit
40:21Profit to me is the outcome we want from a business
40:24Yeah
40:25And that has to be, there has to be cash profit
40:29Otherwise you don't have a business, it is a charity
40:32But you can also say, these are the things that I want
40:35And I want to help these, I want to raise awareness
40:37I want to make money out of it
40:39And that to me is how profit should be defined
40:43What is the outcome we want from this business?
40:46And you won't be surprised to hear, I love, I love, I love what you're doing
40:57I don't think you need an investor
41:04But I'm going to make you an offer
41:07And it's not an offer for all of the money, it's not an offer for any of the money
41:12It's an offer to say that I would be devastated if I sat here
41:17And I let you go without saying I could help
41:22So I'm not going to invest
41:24I'm very, very happy to help you find your way into those foreign markets
41:29And also expand within the UK
41:33That's amazing
41:34But I won't be, I need to touch, I need to say those two words by the way
41:37There's no getting away from it
41:38So I'm afraid I won't be investing, I'm out
41:41Thank you
41:42What a great offer
41:44Thank you so much
41:46I'll see you later
41:49Faye and Jake haven't managed to lay hands on a dragon's cash
41:53But still exit on a high
41:55Having secured an invaluable offer of help from the den's very own queen of all things green
42:02Oh there's a lot of emotions
42:04But yeah, really happy, really happy
42:08They just all really got the business and they saw our passion
42:12They don't want investors in their business, that is a great offer
42:15Well I'm excited for it, I'm excited for it
42:17Because they have got opportunity in the US, absolutely
42:20It was really special that Deborah put forward that offer to help us
42:25Without asking for any of our business, it just shows how much she really cares about creating an impact
42:31USA, here we come
42:33Yeah
42:49My name's Will Little and I'm from Exeter, Devon
42:52I'm going on Dragon's Den, I'm going on Dragon's Den
42:55Don't screw it up, don't screw it up
42:58The nerves either haven't kicked in fully yet or this is the level
43:02Either way, I'm feeling good, I'm groovy
43:06I'm 40, I'm groovy baby
43:07Oh God
43:09The spoon is the only coffee machine you'll ever need
43:12As in what, you take like a spoonful of it, put it in a cup and then pour hot water
43:16in
43:16Yeah
43:16God, that's genius, somebody needs to come up with a powder, but does that?
43:20Yeah, I mean it used to be called, a long time ago, instant coffee
43:23Instant coffee
43:23I think there is a lot riding on today, but I am ready to face the dragons
43:30Yeah, we're ready, couple more sips of coffee and I'll be good to go
43:42Hello Dragons, my name's Will Little and I'm the Managing Director of Little's Coffee
43:48I'm here today to ask for an £80,000 investment in exchange for a 2% stake in my business
43:55Little's is a challenger brand on a big mission to get people drinking better coffee
43:59High Street coffee shops are exploding with a huge selection of flavour trends and innovation
44:03But we're here to show you can have a coffee shop experience at home for a fraction of the cost
44:07You don't have to spend £5 in a coffee shop and you don't have to settle for less
44:12Especially when it comes to instant
44:14Now where did this all start?
44:15Well, our journey started over 35 years ago
44:18When my parents first dreamt up the idea of making flavoured coffee
44:22They were inspired by coffee roasters they encountered on their travels around California
44:26Now since then a lot has changed and I'm really proud to say that we've got national distribution in Tesco,
44:31Sainsbury's, Waitrose, we're in Ocado
44:33And you can find us in numerous independent retailers as well
44:36Now the job isn't done yet
44:38We need a dragon to help us navigate through that next stage of growth and help us on our mission
44:43to get people drinking better coffee
44:45Thank you very, very much for your time
44:47I do look forward to answering your questions, but I think first we'd better taste some coffee, right?
44:51Yes, please
44:51Or maybe second, you should tell us how much you're looking for
44:5580 grand, 82%
44:57Where was I?
44:58I don't know, where were I?
44:59I think you need a coffee, Peter
45:02A range of flavoured coffees, available with the beans ground, in capsules, or as an instant, is the offering from
45:10Will Little
45:12He's seeking £80,000 in return for a 2% share in his family business
45:18Each one of you has a different flavour
45:19Stephen, you've got caramel because it's a really kind of Gen Z-y, very popular flavour
45:24He's got a Gen Z, he's a millennial, don't let him fool you
45:28Stephen Bartlett might be older than he looks, but none of the dragons were born yesterday
45:34As Will could be about to discover
45:40Will, I'm intrigued by your family business
45:45What is the family business?
45:47So, yeah, my parents started the business in the late 80s
45:49My mum's finished, my dad's American, and the business was actually started in Finland
45:53In 1995, we moved to the UK as a family
45:56Now, like any good son, I had absolutely no interest in the family business whatsoever
45:59So instead, I fled the nest to go and pursue my own career in the creative industry
46:04But I came back into the business in 2010
46:06I felt that I really felt a bit of a duty, really, to kind of take on the family business
46:11And what was the business turning off at that point?
46:13600,000, 500,000, when we first came back
46:16So since then, we've been working really hard to kind of grow it, expand it
46:20And now's a really good time to really go hard
46:23I see a variety of different products here in front of me, I see some jars, I see some pods
46:27Yeah
46:28What are all these products?
46:30So, the smaller jars are the flavoured instant coffees
46:32Now, that's nearly 50% of the business
46:34So, kind of, you can look at the business and sort of split 50-50 into flavoured instant coffee and
46:39flavoured nespresso capsules
46:41So, how big is this business?
46:44So, last year we turned over £4 million, just over £4 million
46:46And so, you know, we have an ambition now to get to £10 million pretty quick
46:51So, could you give me the last sort of couple of years, just so I can see the growth profile
46:56of the business?
46:57Yeah, for sure
46:57So, like I said, last year turnover was £4 million
47:00The year before that, turnover was just under £3.8 million
47:03And the year before that, turnover was £3.5 million
47:08I rarely see a business that has this kind of growth profile, which is pretty flat
47:14I agree
47:15It's very rare to see a business that's at that £4 million level, but did £3.8 the previous year
47:20and then £3.5 the year before
47:21Sure
47:22How do you explain that?
47:24So, what's happened is, we grew quite rapidly from 2019 to 2020
47:28But since then, some of the bigger brands came into the market and have put on the shelf competing products
47:34And that's affected rate of sales
47:36And what are your sales channels? Where are you selling?
47:39So, we are 100% retail
47:41How come there isn't a D2C business here?
47:43There is, yes, our online shop accounts for about 8-10% of our revenue
47:50I'm shocked, frankly, that it's not bigger
47:53Well, it's still £350,000 a year turnover, so, you know, it's something we haven't focused on too much
47:59Because our energy's been going in to try and make it work in the supermarkets
48:02Which is where I think the main battleground is, frankly
48:06Will
48:07Hi
48:08Interesting
48:10Great, great-looking business, to be honest, at the moment
48:13And it's your real name? You haven't changed it by Depol
48:15No
48:16Will Little
48:17Yeah
48:17Fantastic
48:19You've got it to £4 million
48:22Sure
48:23What's holding you back, in your opinion?
48:27Recruiting more customers
48:28We need to do more marketing
48:29This is now not about organic growth anymore
48:31OK, this is why I ask the question
48:33My immediate instinct was the brand
48:36And this becomes a big issue for you, because this is the brand of Little
48:41This instantly doesn't tell me what this product is at all
48:46Sure
48:47And to put Little out in the market and resonate with a consumer as a coffee brand
48:56Yeah
48:57I think is your biggest challenge
48:59OK
49:00However, the great thing about that is that can be immediately turned on its head
49:07With a very, very clear message out to the market
49:10So it's how can you turn Little into, when I think coffee, I think Little
49:15Yeah
49:17Do you agree with that?
49:19About the name?
49:20You know, it's difficult, because you get to a point in your business where it's too late to change the
49:26name
49:27Yeah, I don't agree
49:28I think it gives you loads of opportunity
49:30It gives you almost two decades of story and romance, right? As a family business
49:34Can I just say, hang on, we're going down a road that you totally are just jumping in on my
49:38boots
49:38Yes, you're right
49:39So shush it up for a minute
49:40Aren't we allowed to do that?
49:41No, you're not, because you've completely misread what I was saying
49:44What I'm not saying is to change this brand at all
49:46Sure
49:47What I'm saying is that your issue is the brand at the moment, because it's not well known from a
49:52consumer perspective
49:53And I also went on to say, before you jumped in, Dragons, that actually that's something you need to work
49:58on and change
49:59And I do not think for one minute you should go down the route of changing this brand
50:03I think it's the specific thing that you need to think about is how to put this name into the
50:08market
50:08Yeah
50:08So that when people think little, they think coffee
50:12If you work that out, I think you have a glorious business opportunity here globally
50:19Look, putting the coffee to one side
50:23Sure
50:23By the time you get a dividend, how many years time do you intend to do 10 million?
50:28The original plan was by 2027, which is a little bit ambitious
50:32Ambitious
50:33Yeah, so we know that that's probably not likely, so we're looking at the next four years
50:38Four to five years
50:39Five years
50:40Four to five years, yeah
50:41So within the next five years, I'm probably not going to get my money back
50:45No
50:45No, so basically, I'm going to take a longer term view on this
50:49For sure
50:49For that reason, I'm out
50:51For that reason, I'm out
50:55So I really like it
50:58I think the coffee world gets lumps and bumps of innovation
51:05But it's actually quite slow to, I think, talk to the generations coming through
51:10I think it just sits there and expects to sell
51:14So I think it's quite exciting when you get somebody who looks different, you know, and tastes different
51:19But I love little
51:20Right
51:20You've absolutely got something to hook the conversation on, which is, you know, I think is great
51:28So you won't be surprised here, I'm going to make you an offer
51:30Ooh
51:31OK
51:31So I'm going to offer you all of the money
51:35I want 4% of the business
51:37OK
51:39Thank you
51:39Yeah, it's blowing my mind a little bit
51:42Wow
51:43That's... that's punchy
51:44Erm
51:45Yeah, that's the way to set the tone there, Deborah
51:48Yeah
51:48It's what I do when I want something
51:50I can tell
51:50Erm
51:51Do you know what I'm really impressed with?
51:54You've taken that big step from the business that your parents have had
51:58Probably as a lifestyle business doing well and giving them a good income
52:01Yeah
52:02And you've had bigger ambitions for it
52:03For sure
52:05And I like that a lot
52:06So I'm going to make you an offer
52:07Ooh
52:08OK
52:09I'm not going to lie, Deborah's was punchy
52:11OK
52:12I can't quite get to where she's at
52:14OK
52:14But I would offer you all of the money at 5%
52:19OK
52:20Thank you very much, I really appreciate that as well
52:24That's...
52:27The journey you need to go on is a journey that I've been on several times
52:31And there's a certain element of fortune when you catch cultural zeitgeist
52:38In the way that this brand could or could not take off
52:41We've done that a few times in several cases
52:43I'm on the board of a company called Huel who's managed to catch culture
52:46And accelerated that to a quarter-billion-dollar business
52:49I think I'm the perfect dragon for this business
52:51I can't say it in any other way
52:55So I'm going to make you an offer
52:57OK
52:59I'm going to offer you all of the money
53:02Uh-huh
53:05For 7.5% of the business
53:07OK
53:09Greedy
53:11Got to know what you're worth at the end of the day
53:13This is part of the den, isn't it?
53:15OK
53:15You've got to know what the business is worth
53:17You've got to know what you're worth
53:18I know what I'm worth
53:22What's your reaction to that offer?
53:24It's a lot
53:26It's more than I would be comfortable giving away
53:29So I've got some tough decisions to make
53:31Because I've got a
53:32Wait for Mr Jones
53:33Very compelling offer here as well
53:35Yeah, this is
53:35This is
53:36It's good, isn't it?
53:38Because you're in a good situation here
53:40It always gets competitive in the den
53:43Yes
53:43And that is because you have something very special here
53:48I've tasted that coffee
53:49And I have to say
53:50That's the best tasting coffee I've ever experienced
53:53Wow
53:54I think it's first class
53:56I also do think that this brand could be
54:01The biggest brand in coffee in the world, globally
54:05OK
54:06And I own a company called Localized
54:08Which takes big brands and small brands
54:13Around the world for e-commerce
54:14OK
54:15So from a D2C perspective
54:17I can absolutely nail this for you globally
54:20Without you having to spend any money whatsoever
54:25OK
54:26I also think that Deborah has made you an incredibly good offer
54:30And we have a few things together
54:32Sometimes joining up with Dragons is better
54:35OK
54:36So I'm going to offer you all of the money
54:38The 80,000
54:39Yeah
54:39For 4%
54:40OK
54:41But I would urge the fact that
54:44To ask the question whether we'd be willing to share
54:47Because I would be willing to share with Deborah
54:50If Deborah would be willing to share with me
54:52Peter, I'd be very happy to share
54:55So 2% each
54:5740,000 each
54:58We're going to go to the wall
54:58We can make it mine
54:59Yeah
54:59Do you want to go to the wall and think about it?
55:01I need suspense
55:01Let me say something to you before you go to the wall
55:03OK
55:04There's a reason they teamed up
55:06There's a reason
55:30There's a reason
55:33You know what I mean?
55:33Go to the back of the wall and have a chat
55:35I'm just going to talk amongst yourselves
55:40Sneaky, sneaky people
55:43Sneaky people
55:44Will has three competing bids to consider
55:47With Stephen Bartlett offering £80,000 in return for 7.5%
55:53Sarah Davies demanding 5%
55:56And Deborah Meaden and Peter Jones teaming up to table a joint bid of 4%
56:03Closest to the 2% equity originally on offer
56:14OK
56:16It's quite simple
56:19You guys' offer is unbelievable
56:23Stephen, I hear what you're saying
56:257.5 is too much
56:27Is there anything you can do to look at bringing that down?
56:31Is that a counter offer?
56:33Yeah
56:34What sort of percentage?
56:355
56:42Done
56:43Stephen, I'm going to accept the offer
56:46Well done
56:46Thank you
56:48Thank you so much
56:49A surprising turn of events
56:51As the lowest bidding and longest serving dragons lose out on the deal
56:57I'm going to have so much fun working with you
56:58OK
56:59Thank you so much for the trust
57:00Well done
57:00Well done Will
57:01Well done Will
57:02His business may be little by name
57:05Mind blown
57:07But with Stephen Bartlett backing
57:10Will's profits could be on the verge of becoming extremely large
57:15My mind is entirely blown
57:17I hadn't really considered what might happen with the offers
57:20And that's just, yeah, that's blowing my little mind
57:24I'm so over the moon
57:25I think that's brilliant
57:26So do I
57:27Stephen, he's going to be great
57:28You had to drop to get that
57:30But you've got a cracking business there
57:45Next time
57:45It's great seeing you both do some work for the first time
57:49Well, I don't know what it is
57:50But I love it
57:51Have you not seen flowers before?
57:52Sorry, I was nodding at him
57:54I probably need to nod at you
57:55I love it
57:56The business or the product?
57:58Yeah, good point
57:58Oh, I've invested in a brolly company
58:01Good God
58:28Good God
58:30Good God
58:30Good God
58:32you