00:00The hot button political topic as well as now a topic of conversation for the Gen Z is the election
00:06commission of India.
00:08It all started with a news report in the Indian Express raising pertinent questions against the election commission of India's
00:17conduct.
00:17Ever since we have seen the ECI come up with two press releases in one of them as per the
00:24ECI issuing a point by point rebuttal.
00:26Something which the political parties in the country are not quite buying and now the Kokoro Janata Party will start
00:32a jailbaro andolan on the 2nd of October asking for the resignation of the CEC, Mr. Gyanesh Kumar.
00:40What we will do is we have the country's two former election commissioners with us.
00:46All the issues that have been brought up by the report in the Indian Express is something we'd be asking
00:52them, putting questions on and also the response of the ECI.
00:55I have with me former EC Mr. Ashok Lawasa.
00:58Thank you, sir, for joining us and former EC Mr. O.P. Rawat.
01:02Both of them are here with us at the South Conclave for India today and are joining me right now.
01:09Mr. Lawasa, let's begin with you because we've discussed at length the charges or at least the queries that have
01:16been put up by the Indian Express report.
01:18The Election Commission of India in now the latest statement has attempted to give a point by point rebuttal with
01:27the picture of all three ECs together, suggesting that this was a decision and all three election commissioners are on
01:35board with what the EC is trying to say.
01:37Do you think they've been able to justify and explain the charges of the news report or certain questions still
01:44beckon answers?
01:45In fact, the impression that I got after reading the press statement was that, one, it's some kind of an
01:54admission of all the allegations that were being levelled.
01:59Number two, I felt that there was an attempt to appear to be a little responsive and do course correction.
02:07But I thought that course correction was like applying a bandaid to a fracture because the entire exercise of SIR
02:16does not become fair because you provide a few concessions to people.
02:24And third, I thought that there are a number of questions which arise from the press statement itself.
02:31To give an example about Form 6, there is a clear admission that there is a declaration form which is
02:41being used in Form 6 in the SIR.
02:43And the election commission is clarifying that A, this was upheld by the Supreme Court and B, that there is
02:51a difference between form used in SIR and form used in non-SIR.
02:57So actually, I am very confused because the rule does not permit two versions of the same form.
03:04And yet there were two versions of the same form.
03:07Exactly. So how does it get validated? It's not clear to me.
03:12And the final impression I got was I found some of the explanations a little ridiculous because for the election
03:23commission to say that henceforth agenda will be issued
03:27and minutes will be recorded, I thought, how can a constitutional body which has to work in accordance with the
03:38act which says that you will take decisions unanimously or by majority.
03:43If you don't maintain minutes, how does anyone know whether it was unanimous or by a majority?
03:50So I think these are the questions. I don't feel satisfied at the response at all.
03:58So you think you don't feel satisfied and the election commission of India has much still to answer to.
04:04That's what you feel.
04:06Mr. Rawat, what's your opinion of the explanation and the press release by the election commission of India?
04:13I agree only with what Mr. Ashok Lavasa, my colleague at the election commission, has said.
04:23In fact, if election commission wanted to sort of close the chapter or stop the simmering of this whole issue
04:34for long,
04:35should have come out comprehensively from the very beginning, means the start of SIR in Bihar, and all other issues,
04:46and all three of them should have put everything in public domain through the media.
04:54So you think it should have, instead of a press release with a picture, there should have been a press
04:59conference?
04:59Answering everything.
05:01And should have taken every question?
05:02Yes. It would have shut down the whole thing.
05:06Nobody would then come forward and agitate.
05:11So you're saying by issuing a statement which raises more questions than it answers,
05:16the ECI has further painted itself in a corner.
05:21And it has been the tradition with the ECI.
05:23Whenever even slightest issue came up, election commission will go whole hog
05:28to answer that comprehensively, squarely, and to the satisfaction of common man.
05:35And they fail to do so, at least, till now.
05:37These two press notes, etc., are too little, too late.
05:42Too little, too late?
05:43Yeah.
05:44Inadequate, would you say?
05:45And inadequate.
05:46Yeah.
05:46And inadequate, yeah.
05:47Mr. Lavasa, I know you want to comment, but first make your point, sir.
05:51No, I just wanted to add that, you know, a press note is not open to being questioned.
05:59If you have a press conference and you present your viewpoint, then whoever has a doubt, he
06:05has an opportunity to ask you a question and equally you have an opportunity to clarify it
06:10further.
06:11So, I think, actually, they have denied themselves this opportunity.
06:15And which they could have, you know, taken every question and answered every question.
06:20I want to, you know, Mr. Lavasa, I want to delve a little deeper onto the questions that
06:24were raised and today are still being asked and something that hasn't been at least replied
06:29to where, you know, the press note is concerned.
06:33Yes, the issue of Form 6 and admittance that possibly there wasn't a lecture, in a form
06:38of an lecture, a question added which doesn't quite agree with what had to be done and the
06:43rules and the norms.
06:44The question on why 16.1 lakh voters in West Bengal on their, you know, why ECI in itself
06:56had launched appeals for their names to be taken out and deleted, there was no answer
07:01on that and that still remains a big, you know, loophole or a question that West Bengal
07:08on what really happened.
07:10In fact, that, of course, is a very clear case where ECI has not responded to a very burning
07:18issue and it's not just that the question was raised by one of the election commissioners,
07:24but it is a fact that if you look at the history of role preparation in India, after a
07:31role has been finalized in any state for 16 lakh appeals to be filed against people whose
07:39names have been included following a due process.
07:42So we were told that SIR is an effort to purify the electoral rules and to make sure that no
07:50ineligible person is allowed to remain in the poll.
07:53So how come that you have more than 16 lakh appeals being filed?
07:58And if indeed they have been filed by somebody from the commission or somebody who's authorized
08:03by the commission, it's very problematic because then you're questioning your own procedure.
08:10Then other than this, see, you also had this case where you have 22 and a half lakh appeals filed.
08:19The deleted orders.
08:20The deleted orders.
08:21And then out of that 1 lakh 26,000 or 30,000 have been adjudicated, 93,000 have been found
08:27to,
08:2893 percent have been found to be wrongfully deleted.
08:31So that itself is a scathing criticism of the quality of SIR.
08:38But more than that, I think what worries me is that is the election commission of India satisfied
08:46that so many lakhs of people, their voting rights should remain suspended for 10 or 12 years,
08:55which it will take for the adjudication to complete?
08:58Yes, because the, yeah, because the numbers that are less, like now 38 lakhs, which includes
09:03the 22 plus the 16, and it would take about 12 years at the pace with which the EC is
09:09going
09:09to hear those appeals.
09:11Though even the EC is saying that they will try and increase the number of tribunals from
09:1619 to 42, even then it will only reduce the time by 7 years.
09:19So it will still take another election cycle.
09:22Precisely.
09:23Fair point.
09:23I want to ask, you know, Mr. Rawat, I want to ask you this one question, where do you think
09:31the questions that have been raised, which you said, have not quite been answered, at least
09:35by the election commission of India?
09:37Yeah.
09:38A press conference now, because now the demand is by a lot of political sets or pressure groups,
09:44you may call, for the CEC stepping down.
09:47But the answer has always been that all three of them might have, there might be differences,
09:52but they all unanimously came together.
09:55How, you know, there might have been differences or dissent, but the decision was unanimous.
09:59So how does it go away from unanimity clause?
10:04Actually, I personally feel that so long as these people do not talk in public, it is
10:12more or less like a black box emanating some grey, that's why we cannot jump on any such
10:18conclusion unless every question, every corollary is answered.
10:23So you're saying ultimately it's a press conference that needs to happen immediately, where the AC
10:28CI makes everything clear.
10:29But Mr. Lavasa, the same question, allow me to ask you.
10:32Because yes, dissent can happen, differences can happen, but at least, you know, again,
10:37we only have press releases to go by.
10:39The assumption is, or it's not assumption, we can see that all three of them are together.
10:45So they all signed in, they could have raised differences, but decisions were taken unanimously,
10:49so how, what is wrong with that?
10:51Differences happen in any organisation?
10:53Of course, and they should happen in every organisation.
10:56The point which Mr. Rawat is making is that they have to give all the facts and details.
11:04For example, let's say if one of the election commissioners wrote about the form 6 changes
11:12being illegal or unauthorised.
11:15I think people are entitled to know that when these letters were received, what did the ECI
11:22do with these letters?
11:24Were they examined on the file?
11:26Was the file sent back to the commissioner concerned?
11:29Was it circulated among all the commissioners?
11:32Or was this matter discussed in the meeting of the commission?
11:36When did that meeting take place?
11:38Who attended that meeting?
11:39Unless all these things are brought out in the open with facts, not just assertions.
11:47You have to give the facts.
11:49Only then people will be convinced that yes, what is happening is this.
11:54Or the charge that both of the ECs wrote to the cabinet secretary.
11:59Because why should they be writing?
12:01You know, the BJP here because they are defending the EC comes out and says why should they be
12:06writing to the cabinet secretary the report to the president?
12:08They didn't write to the cabinet secretary.
12:09Well, first of all I think the EC is quite competent to defend itself.
12:12Nobody needs to defend the election commission.
12:15But the point about the letter to the cabinet secretary is this.
12:19That in this release, the press release, the point made is that this was a communication
12:26sent with regard to an officer on deputation.
12:29And it had to do with the administrative responsibility of the cabinet secretary
12:34being in charge of the civil services, etc.
12:37Even if you buy this argument, the point is simply this.
12:42That I don't recall cases where if the election commission has to take up an administrative issue
12:49with the government, the CEC is not writing, one of the ECs is writing.
12:54Either the communication is sent by CEC or by somebody authorized by him to send an administrative
13:00communication.
13:01But a letter going to the cabinet secretary from one of the election commissioners, I think
13:06that is unparalleled.
13:07The other thing which it shows is that it means if, for example, one of the ECs was dissatisfied
13:16with the conduct of an officer who is on deputation, why did he not tell the CEC?
13:22Yeah, why did he write to the cabinet secretary?
13:25Why did he write to the cabinet secretary?
13:26Because CEC is the chairman of the commission and he is responsible for the administrative work
13:31in the organization.
13:33So, if it is not being told to the CEC, then the implication or the indication is that there
13:40is some communication issue.
13:44Communication issue, transparency issue, whatever one might call it, it needs to be.
13:49I will also, you know, final words sir and I will come to you.
13:52On the issue of a software glitch where ECiNet is concerned, the example of Goa is given where
13:5897 voters and the local official on repeated attempts of 5 or 7 times writing to the centre
14:05could not re-establish their names in the voter rules.
14:07The explanation coming from many parts which are defending the EC and, you know, political parties
14:15and otherwise say that the local authorities have the option or the power to add names but
14:20not to re-add names who have been flagged earlier.
14:23So, this is a normal, this was normal procedure.
14:26It is not normal.
14:28Actually, ECiNet, they started sometime in January or February and it is still undergoing changes,
14:35modifications, additions, alterations because it was not fully commissioned.
