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00:00Niven kind of insisted on doing the record ourselves, and he wasn't an experienced producer.
00:06Might have been improved had we used the Big Mutt Lang type.
00:10It's just a massive throw, so we get the maximum out of our sound instead of doing it ourselves, so
00:17to speak.
00:19Rock, metal, frog, and everything in between.
00:22Welcome to this episode of Talkin' Rock with Meltdown.
00:26Don't forget to follow the audio-only Talkin' Rock podcast on all podcast platforms.
00:31And now, it's time for today's conversation. Here's Meltdown.
00:35There he is, the great white shark himself. How are you, Mark?
00:39Doing good. Doing good, man.
00:41Man, good to see you, dude. I got a lot of things going on this year. It seems like you're
00:45never slowing down.
00:47Yeah, you know, things are going well with my illness, and so if you couldn't be better,
00:56man, I keep getting good information. I, you know, when I do these scans, I do these scans every three
01:02months.
01:04And my cancer keeps shrinking in my kidney.
01:08It's gone from 13 centimeters all the way to four.
01:13Wow.
01:13It just went from five to four, so I, it's gone 13, 11, 8, 5, 4.
01:20Nice.
01:22That's great.
01:23So, it's isolated in my kidney, so I just got this little guy in my kidney that's not supposed to
01:29be there.
01:31Well, I'm sure the doctors are pleased with your progress.
01:34Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
01:37Yeah, they're really pleased. Yeah, they're really pleased.
01:40That's good, man. When are you going for your next scan?
01:44In January.
01:45Awesome.
01:46I just had it, like, three days ago, so.
01:48Oh, okay, just three days ago. I know.
01:50You and I text sometimes, you text me good news, you text me about your book and stuff like that,
01:54so I wasn't sure when you had it last, but that's great, man.
01:57You get to celebrate Halloween and Thanksgiving and Christmas and then worry about that.
02:01Yeah.
02:02Yeah.
02:03And I don't have to sweat it that long. Like, it actually came one day later, you know,
02:09because once you get these scans, you've got to wait to see if it's spread or, you know, anything bad
02:14happened.
02:15So, I only had to sweat it for one day, and they came back and said everything's groovy and, you
02:20know, it shrunk again.
02:23That was the medical term. Everything is groovy.
02:26Yeah, groovy, man.
02:29Well, dude, always great to hear that good news, man. That's fantastic.
02:34And, of course, you just announced recently, too, that you're a book.
02:38Now, that's coming out one year from, like, now, the fall of 2027?
02:43Yeah, the fall, you know, and I'm just going to do a lot of promotion.
02:48You know, I started out with that, like I said before, started out with that Canadian company,
02:52but they wanted to do a different type of book that just talked about guitar and whatnot.
02:58And I wanted to do more of, like, an autobiography where I went all the way back to childhood and
03:03did, like, my life story.
03:05So people could, you know, fans could get to know me away from the stage and not just, you know,
03:12what I do on stage in Great White or whatever.
03:15I wanted to go all the way back to childhood, go through my whole life.
03:19And so after I pulled out of the deal with the Canadian company, this guy got a hold of me,
03:26this ghostwriter called Jeffrey Mangus, and we worked on this.
03:32We ended up working together on this book for, like, 16 months.
03:38And, you know, we finished it.
03:40And so the idea was to go with his publishing company because he has a publishing company.
03:48And but then he said that I deserve a bigger stage.
03:53So.
03:55He started out looking for agents and sending out proposals to all these agents from, you know,
04:05everywhere to find me a deal with a publishing company.
04:11But after about five weeks, he started to get a little frustrated.
04:17So he said, I'm going to talk to my lawyer and see if I can become an agent for you.
04:22So he talked to his lawyer and she said, yeah, no problem.
04:25You can become an agent.
04:27So he sent out the proposal to about 15 different publishing companies.
04:34And the first one was one called Blackstone.
04:38And they passed.
04:40They ended up passing after about two weeks.
04:42We had to wait two weeks to find out that they weren't into it.
04:47The second one came along from Diversion Books.
04:50And this guy also waited two weeks, but he came back and said he wants to do a deal.
04:56So he signed me to this publishing deal.
05:01And it's a pretty big deal.
05:03It's worldwide distribution.
05:06And we got a lot of big names like Buddy Guy is on is part of the roster.
05:15John Madden, you know, some big football hero, you know.
05:21So there's a lot of it's I mean, pretty good company.
05:26With this book.
05:27And the only thing they wanted was the.
05:32The chief.
05:35The chief.
05:39What you call it.
05:42Editor in chief, I guess.
05:44Yeah.
05:44He wanted he wanted he wanted some of the chapters moved around because he wanted me to meet Jack Russell,
05:52almost like the Pulp Fiction fiction movie, you know, like where things happen.
05:59You don't go back to the beginning yet.
06:01Oh, gotcha.
06:02I mean, gotcha.
06:03Like you want to talk about the fire a little bit and about me meeting Jack Russell.
06:09And then I'm born.
06:10Yeah.
06:13So I was going to ask you.
06:14So how do you approach Jack Russell stories?
06:17Did you just I mean, look, I've said this before on the radio, too.
06:20You've never said a bad word about Jack Russell to me.
06:23You just said that, you know, with his addiction and stuff, you know, you know, he just couldn't be around
06:28anymore.
06:28And you've never said a bad word about him.
06:31But how do you approach these stories about Jack Russell?
06:34No, Jack Russell is a beautiful man and my best friend.
06:38I mean, we were connected at the hip our entire career.
06:41You know, it was never personal.
06:44He just.
06:46He declined to a point where he couldn't even stand anymore, you know, to where he was like on stools
06:54performing and and then kind of just crashed and burned.
06:58To where he couldn't perform at all.
07:01So all we said was just go get well, you know, work on your addiction.
07:07And I tried to help him the best I can, because that's all I do is work with alcoholics and
07:13addicts, you know, practically on a daily basis.
07:16So, you know, it just he had a little bit tougher time.
07:20And that happens.
07:22Some people have a little tougher time getting away from their drug of choice.
07:26And and and he was one of those people.
07:29And so it was never a personal thing.
07:33And that's where I think the fans were confused.
07:36They they think that we had some kind of personal falling out.
07:42But it wasn't the case.
07:44We're still love each other.
07:47It's just that he he wasn't able to get well.
07:51You know what I mean?
07:53Yeah.
07:54So instead of getting well, he went and found another band to play with.
07:59And wanted to take our name and make that be great way.
08:04So, you know, I couldn't have that.
08:06That wouldn't be fair.
08:07Right.
08:08So we ended up doing the lawsuits and all that kind of stuff.
08:12So then it became kind of a pain in the butt.
08:16Yeah.
08:16Did did you have a relationship with Jack after he left or was it was the were the lawsuits and
08:21stuff just kind of too much to to handle?
08:24Well, at the end of the lawsuit, we made an agreement that he could be Jack Russell's great wife just
08:30so he can earn a living.
08:32And we shook hands and, you know, I like he said, I've never talked bad about him in the press.
08:40And, you know, we we talked about each other a lot.
08:43I don't think there was any bashing.
08:47But as far as hanging out, you know, we're both busy people.
08:51So we we weren't like having dinner or anything, you know, but I never had I've never had anything against
09:01him.
09:01And, man, we were we started this thing together.
09:04You know, we were brothers.
09:05It was a full blown brotherhood.
09:07Our families were connected.
09:09You know, this was more than the music.
09:12This was the you know, we were all one big family, you know.
09:17Yeah.
09:17When you were writing this book, you said with your ghostwriter, did you sit down like we're doing now, maybe
09:22even in person and just tell stories and just talking?
09:26Were there things that were jarred loose from your memory that that you'd kind of forgotten about for years?
09:31Story after story.
09:33And he asked a lot of questions, which created more detail in the story.
09:38So the stories were even told better because of the detail.
09:43And Jeffrey Mangus is a total professional writer.
09:47You know what I mean?
09:48So he's able to tell my story like a writer would like, you know, getting everything I wanted to say,
09:56but he's doing it professionally.
09:57You know what I mean?
09:58So it's going to be written really, really cool.
10:01So, but yeah, he's a complete pro.
10:06I went through, you know, the way we when we got into like me, because I'm a dropout out of
10:13high school.
10:14I mean, you know, 17, I moved out of my house and went and joined bands.
10:18I was in bands since I was 15.
10:20I mean, so, you know, and I met Jack when I was about 20.
10:28And we just started to make our own band after he auditioned for my band.
10:32We decided to make our own band.
10:34But then about four months in, he got in all kinds of trouble and went to prison for shooting somebody,
10:40which is mind blowing.
10:43I got my singer shoots people.
10:44Well, this is amazing.
10:46And so I had to start from scratch and make my own band.
10:51And so I made this band called Dante Fox, which was just a horrible name.
10:55But it was like a deal where we just abandoned thinking of names.
11:00And the bass player came up with that name.
11:02I go, that's our name.
11:04I'm done thinking the name.
11:05We're Dante Fox now.
11:08And so, but Jack got out of prison in about a year and a half and auditioned, came in and
11:15said that he would be better than anybody we had.
11:18In fact, he said he'd blow away anybody we had.
11:21And I go, not like the maid, right?
11:25And but anyway, so, of course, we took him.
11:28He was singing better than ever.
11:31And, you know, the drummer would leave or we'd fire the drummer, the bass player quit.
11:38So it was kind of interchanging band members before we got our opportunity to get like a record deal type
11:46thing.
11:48We were just playing the whiskey one night and there was somebody that could help us in the crowd.
11:54And but he ended up hating our name.
11:57He did not like our name.
11:59And Dante Fox, Dante Fox thing, he ain't going to work.
12:03Well, he was out waiting for his car in front of the club.
12:06People were out smoking cigarettes in between bands, right?
12:09He said, I came driving by in a car, stuck my head out the window and screamed something to the
12:15crowd.
12:16And the kid next to him said, there goes Great White.
12:20And he had never heard it.
12:22But Jack Russell used to call me Great White on stage.
12:25But he didn't hear it that night.
12:27He didn't say it that night.
12:29But he heard that kid say it.
12:31And I guess a light bulb went off in his head and said, that's their name.
12:35So he changed our name the very first day we met him at the record company.
12:40From Dante Fox to Great White.
12:43And you guys were all on board with that?
12:46At first, we didn't like it.
12:47But we just thought, you know, these are some of the compromises you have to make with the big boys.
12:52You know what I mean?
12:53Because we didn't think of the shark right away.
12:57Once we thought of the shark, we liked the name.
13:00Because not only did the shark have kind of a cool mascot and kind of a mean image, but it
13:08didn't have to mean anything dictating toward our music.
13:12It wasn't a name like Slayer where every song has to be kill your parents.
13:17You know what I mean?
13:19So we liked the name in that regard, too.
13:21But at first, we didn't like it.
13:24You know, it was, yeah.
13:25No, I was going to say, and people got to remember back in the early 1980s, Jaws was a huge
13:30thing.
13:31So, I mean, that probably helped a little bit as well, that that was in the theaters all the time,
13:35too.
13:36Yeah.
13:37You know, so it was a cool name.
13:40You know, they had Jaws going.
13:42And so, yeah, you know, we liked the name after, you know, we thought about it and got the shark
13:49going and all that.
13:51Now, writing the book, did you rely on Michael or Audie or anything like that as far as any of
13:59your stories?
14:00A little bit of Michael.
14:01Michael, as far as some of the timeline, when I started going through the albums and some of the tours,
14:08he has a real good memory about touring.
14:11So I wanted to make sure that I had all our touring stories together.
14:17And but there's a there's a lot of stories laced in between records and making the records and, you know,
14:26band stuff and working with Alan Niven.
14:30And how that was.
14:31And just, you know, it's just, you know, story after story.
14:37And, you know.
14:40I've said it before, but, you know, a few feelings might get hurt because I'm not holding back anything.
14:45I'm I'm just being truthful.
14:47It's a book full of truth.
14:49You know, did you talk to Alan at all about any of the stories or.
14:52No, but, you know, I said some of the feelings I had, you know, toward us.
15:01Producing the records ourselves and stuff, because there was so many huge producers that were available out there.
15:09You know, big names, Michael Benhorn and, you know, there was just there was so many great producers that we
15:19could have used.
15:21To, you know, mix our album, produce our record, we didn't have to do it ourselves.
15:25We could write the songs ourselves and then let's bring in a pro.
15:30That's what I always wanted to do.
15:32But Niven kind of insisted on doing the record ourselves and he wasn't an experienced producer.
15:39So I just felt quality wise, as far as sound, might have been improved had we used the big Mutt
15:51Lang type dude.
15:54Yeah, not only that, not only is the sound in the production, perhaps, maybe even the way you crafted the
15:58songs.
15:59Because from what I understand, Mutt Lang was quite a teacher in that aspect.
16:04Yeah.
16:04You know?
16:05Yeah, yeah.
16:06And we had a little bit of that with Niven.
16:09He was pretty hard on the songs and stuff and had his ideas.
16:15But, you know, my idea is why not use the guy that that's all he does is produce albums.
16:24You know, when he produces one album and he does a Bon Jovi or a Def Leppard, he's on to
16:31the next project.
16:32He's on to ACDC.
16:34You know?
16:35I mean, why not use a guy like that that's just a massive pro so we get the maximum out
16:42of our sound on our records.
16:44And, you know, maybe the songs are constructed a little different.
16:49And so we can hold up with the bigger bands, you know, instead of doing it ourselves, so to speak.
16:56Yeah, exactly.
16:57So I just come with that because I want my feelings shown in the book.
17:03You know, I'm not, like I said, I'm not holding back anything.
17:07I want people to know what I think and although I'm proud of our career, I have no regrets.
17:16You know, it's just, you know, there's a few things if I could change, I would, you know.
17:23And one of them is being getting a bigger, big time producer.
17:26I think so.
17:27Yeah.
17:27I think that would have been, that would have been smart.
17:30Let go of our egos and get a big, big name in there.
17:35Yeah, I just talked to Phil Collin not that long ago and he heaped all sorts of praise on Mutt
17:40and even, you know, talked about how he kind of changed the way they played and changed the way they,
17:44they wrote songs.
17:45So, I mean, obviously he's got a pretty good track record, as you know, so.
17:49One of the guys, this guy named Chris Epting, who actually did Phil Collin book, said that our proposal was
17:57the best proposal he's ever seen in his life.
18:03So, it was a pretty good detailed proposal, how I got my book deal.
18:09Now, for people that don't know or don't follow you on social media, you're, you're a big family guy.
18:13So, how much of this book, how much of this book is written with the fan in mind and how
18:18much of this book is written to tell your story to your kids and your grandkids?
18:24I, they're going to learn a lot, you know, because, you know, one thing about me is I don't know
18:32a lot about my parents' childhood or their teenage years or, you know.
18:37So, all my kids are going to get to know the way I grew up, you know, my school years,
18:47the friends I had, you know, my baseball career, how I got into music, you know, from the very get
18:57-go as a, as a boy.
19:00And, um, so, my kids, when I'm, when I'm gone, are going to know my whole life, which I think
19:09is pretty cool.
19:11Yeah.
19:12I wish I knew more about my parents, you know.
19:14I wish I knew more about my mom when she was a teenager or whatever.
19:18That would be really neat to know how she was and what kind of friends she had or, you know,
19:23just information.
19:24It would be neat.
19:25I, I've never asked my parents, I don't know if you've ever asked your parents, you know, what was it
19:31like, you know, when you were 15 or, you know what I mean?
19:34It's something I never thought to ask.
19:37Yeah.
19:37And now that they're gone, I wish I would have.
19:40Yeah.
19:40Were they supportive of you early on?
19:43Absolutely.
19:44Um, you know, I think my dad's thing, he wanted me to be a pro baseball player, but he was
19:50always supportive.
19:51But I don't think he thought that anything would happen with the music.
19:56If he didn't make it himself, he was a jazz trumpet player and he didn't make it in jazz.
20:02So he, he was thinking like father, like son, like I probably won't either.
20:07So, so, so you start to play arenas and stuff, you know, uh, opening for bands, maybe even some of
20:14your own, uh, bigger gigs.
20:15Do you, do you invite your parents out?
20:17Do they, do they, do they give them the whole backstage tour, everything?
20:20When we played the forum, um, the record company was giving us platinum records on stage.
20:26And the forum is our local arena where the Lakers play.
20:30And, and so it was like a really big profile event.
20:35So I, my parents were both there and they got to look at me getting a platinum record on stage
20:41and all that.
20:42And, and, you know, I had friends from middle school in the first five rows and, you know, so, so,
20:50you know, it's kind of, that's the most fun about the whole thing is sharing this stuff with your, with
20:56your mom and dad and, you know, them getting to see, I didn't do so bad and whatnot.
21:02Yeah. Yeah. Not, yeah. Not, not bad at all. I might add. Yeah. That's pretty cool. What, what do you
21:07think, what do you think the highlight of a great white was?
21:10I mean, obviously that's one right there, but did you talk about any highlights in the book or maybe even
21:14low lights?
21:16Um, yeah, you know, um, I talk about songs and, you know, uh, how like a song like rock me,
21:26how I kind of had tunnel vision when we were recording it because I'm, I'm thinking about my own parts
21:32and we're rewinding the tape and hitting record and I'm doing my parts.
21:40And, and then when it was all mixed and done, the record company came down and they were in the
21:46control room and I'm hearing it back for the first time done.
21:51And I was shocked how good it sounded, you know, I'm going, you know, I didn't know what we'd done
21:57really, you know, cause I hadn't heard it.
22:00I've only heard playbacks and, but I hadn't heard it finished with all the vocals and, you know, and whatnot.
22:09So I'm sitting there with the record company hearing it for the first time and going, holy crap, this is
22:14pretty good.
22:17And that, that's kind of a weird song too, because, uh, that was over seven minutes long.
22:21And at the time, I mean, bands didn't put out seven minute songs.
22:24Yeah.
22:24As far as being seven minutes, I was a little concerned because, you know, the four minute song rule and
22:31everything on the radio.
22:32So, um, for us to come with a seven minute song, I thought that might hurt us, even though the
22:40song was good, but Niven did this funny trick.
22:45He put that every song on our record was three minutes and 59 seconds.
22:51So when they sent a single to the radio stations, it said three 59 on there.
22:58So I don't think they figured it out right away that it was seven minutes.
23:02Really?
23:04And by the time they'd probably figured it out, the phones were already lighting up, you know, that people were
23:10digging the song.
23:11So we got away with it.
23:12We got away with one, but one thing we had to rerecord the whole song for MTV because they wouldn't
23:19allow the seven minutes.
23:21We had to take two minutes out and we didn't do it by editing it.
23:25It wasn't working.
23:27So we had to rerecord it and cut verses in half and stuff like that.
23:32But we left all the guitar solos.
23:34Wow.
23:35No, that's sweet.
23:36Yeah.
23:36There was a lot of guitar solos, uh, uh, in that song.
23:40Uh, but yeah, so the book comes out in the fall.
23:42Uh, what do you got going on?
23:44I don't kind of a tough question, but between now and then, of course, I mean, you're playing, uh, I've
23:49seen that you guys have been recording.
23:50Even last time we talked to you, you said you've been, you know, working on some music here and there.
23:54What's happening with Great White?
23:55Yeah, we're still doing that.
23:57It's just, we got, we got these gigs in our way a little bit.
24:01So we're waiting for a break so we can get in there and get this over with, man.
24:06I'm so tired of waiting.
24:08Um, but we got plenty of material and we're continuing to write.
24:15I was just had the, just had my bass player over there and we were working on songs.
24:20Um, I got a couple new ones that we're going to go in the studio and get those handled.
24:27So hopefully early next year, man.
24:31I'm tired of saying that it's going to come out.
24:33I've been saying it for like, I don't even know how long it's like, it's getting embarrassing.
24:39It'll come out.
24:40I'll let you know when it's out.
24:42All right.
24:43Hey, uh, you know, real fast.
24:44I wanted to ask you about this.
24:45So the guys from, uh, Quiet Riot, they've got this young, new, uh, front man singer.
24:50Uh, they've kind of almost gone this, the same path as you.
24:53What kind of advice would you give?
24:55I saw that.
24:55Yeah.
24:56I saw that.
24:57I grabbed that singer and pulled them in our dressing room and said, Hey man, way to go,
25:01buddy.
25:01Yeah.
25:02You know, you're singing your ass off.
25:04You sound great.
25:05You sound like Kevin Dubrow.
25:07Um, and he's thrilled to be in his position, you know, and took a picture with us.
25:13I think he's kind of a fan, you know, he's a young, young guy.
25:16Yeah.
25:17So, uh, yeah, very similar.
25:19I think he, he might be younger.
25:21I think he's like 23 or something.
25:24That's 29, which is still a young man.
25:28Um, just totally handles it every night.
25:32It's a great singer.
25:32We got a great singer.
25:34Yeah.
25:35Um, it was, it was, it, I mean, you've, you've, he's been with the band now for a while.
25:39Was there any, uh, was there any, a transition period?
25:42Was it difficult to get him in?
25:43It seems like John Tory, uh, Tora, I guess from a quiet ride.
25:47He just, he's just, just meshing with the guys.
25:50He's having a blast according to what Johnny Kelly told me.
25:52So, um, yeah, you can probably see the kind of situation they're in.
25:57Yeah.
25:57Yeah.
25:58They're thrilled because their songs are getting delivered.
26:02Perfect.
26:02Yeah.
26:03You know, which is cool.
26:05And I think the fans dig that, you know, when they hear the songs back that they've been
26:09hearing on the radio their whole life, they, they kind of like that, you know, they don't
26:14want to sing her up there struggling and they almost don't even recognize the song because
26:19the singer not really handling it.
26:21You know, it took us years to find a singer to, to be in Jack Russell's place.
26:28I mean, we kept settling.
26:30I call it settling like, Oh, this guy's pretty good.
26:33Let's just go with that.
26:35You know, but it was never like, Oh, I mean, this guy's the most amazing ever.
26:39And he's delivering our song.
26:41Perfect.
26:42Never happened until Brett.
26:45Brett actually sings the song.
26:47Yeah.
26:48I was going to say, what, what, what put him over the top?
26:51He, he just, the very first show he did with us, he just blew minds.
26:57It became world news immediately in Italy, Germany, England.
27:04Um, all the rags that the internet, you know, magazines that normally hate on us were saying
27:15this new singer of great white is like ridiculously good.
27:19You know what I mean?
27:20And I, I didn't even know that night how good he did.
27:23Cause my headphones weren't really working that well.
27:26So until I saw it on the internet for myself and I thought on YouTube, he sang stick it
27:33perfect.
27:34And I, Oh, Holy crap.
27:35This kid's amazing.
27:37So we had him do a show in New York and then I heard him good and he just nailed
27:41everything.
27:43And so after about four shows, we called them as a group and said, Hey, what do you think
27:48about, you know, hitting the big time?
27:53And he's like, yeah, man, I'm into it.
27:56You know, he's pretty laid back.
27:59The guy's from Alabama, you know, he's just chill dude.
28:01He just, nothing overwhelms the guy.
28:05He just, you know, he just goes out and kills it every night.
28:08No drama, you know, he's just cool dude to hang out with, you know?
28:13Well, that's it.
28:14That's the thing that people don't, yeah.
28:15People don't realize it's like he can sing the songs and nail the songs perfectly, but
28:19it's the other 22 hours of the day that you have to worry about.
28:22Right?
28:23Yeah.
28:23No, he's cool, man.
28:25He's really a chill dude.
28:26The only difference I see is he'll do things during the day that we probably wouldn't do.
28:33Like, if we play a fair, he'll go out on the rides all day and shit like that.
28:39You know, stuff that requires energy.
28:42To where we wouldn't do that on a show day.
28:46We wouldn't go out there and get on roller coasters and go running around all day long
28:51and the sun, you know, but he will.
28:54He'll do that and then go do a perfect show.
28:57Yeah.
28:58Where, you know, at our age, it's not a great idea to go to the beach on show day and
29:03go
29:04surfing.
29:06But he'll do that.
29:08Or I guess maybe when you guys were his age, it was all about the girls and the bottles
29:12of Jack Daniels and whatever else you can play in, is that, huh?
29:15Yeah, he can pull all that off, you know, and we're kind of just chilling, getting ready
29:21to do their best show.
29:22Yeah.
29:24Well, I'll tell you what, Mark, we'll cut you loose.
29:26The Soul of a Man comes out in the fall of 2027.
29:30Super happy to hear the news.
29:32Thanks for every message you send me that gives me a positive update.
29:35It makes my day when I see those messages.
29:37So thank you so much.
29:39And keep going in the right direction here.
29:42And have a great Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas.
29:45I'm sure I'll be talking to you before then.
29:47But keep going in the right direction.
29:48Looking forward to digging into this book.
29:51Okay.
29:52Well, thank you.
29:53Check out Talking Rock with Meltdown on all podcast platforms and WRIF.com.