00:00Hi, thank you so much for taking me last minute.
00:02I really need this session.
00:04No worries, I had a patient cancel, so it all works out.
00:10So there's this thing I want to talk to you about.
00:12Have you ever noticed that every time
00:15an artist does something pervy,
00:17everyone rushes to ask the same question?
00:20How do we reckon with the work of someone
00:23who was accused or proven to be a predator?
00:26If one of his old movies comes up,
00:28would you have a hard time watching?
00:30Can you separate the art from the artist?
00:33Should we separate the art from the artist?
00:36Separating the art from the artist is impossible.
00:39I'm Elisa Kreisinger.
00:40Some people think I'm a little much.
00:43A Debbie Downer.
00:45A serious buzzkill.
00:47But I just have strong opinions loosely held.
00:50Sorry, where was I?
00:52Oh yeah, my favorite films were ruined by rapists,
00:55and my pop culture by predators.
00:57Have you talked to anybody else about this?
01:00All my friends think I'm crazy,
01:01so I asked some strangers on the street.
01:04Excuse me, hi, I'm so sorry to bother you.
01:07What's your favorite film, and was it ruined by a rapist?
01:09What's your favorite TV show?
01:11My favorite TV show is One Tree Hill.
01:13Love One Tree Hill, but I hate to tell you,
01:16showrunner Mark Schwan has been accused by the cast
01:19and the crew of sexual misconduct.
01:20I'm so sorry, but I hope you have a great train ride.
01:24Thanks.
01:26Hey, hi.
01:28I'm doing this project where I'm asking people
01:30if their favorite film was ruined by a rapist.
01:32So what's your favorite film?
01:33Oh, well, it's actually, don't laugh at me.
01:37It's Clueless.
01:38Oh my God, love that film.
01:40And also, No Known Predator.
01:41High five.
01:42Amazing.
01:43Wow.
01:43That's lucky.
01:46Hi, miss.
01:47Hi, I'm so sorry to bother you.
01:48Was your favorite film ruined by a rapist?
01:50What's your favorite film?
01:52My favorite film is The Graduate.
01:56Ooh, The Graduate, I'm so sorry to tell you this,
01:59but that has Dustin Hoffman in it.
02:00And Dustin Hoffman was accused of sexual harassment
02:04by like seven women, including Meryl Streep.
02:06I know you have a text, but hold on one second,
02:08because Meryl Streep accused him of touching her boob
02:11the first time they met.
02:12Does that change how you feel about The Graduate?
02:15Damn.
02:16I mean, can we like anything anymore?
02:18Maybe.
02:19What's your favorite TV show?
02:20The Cosby Show.
02:24I realize that we're all struggling
02:26with how our pop culture has been shaped
02:29by this abuse of power.
02:31Did you know that Netflix spent $39 million
02:34on shows that they couldn't release
02:37because of the quote unquote societal reset
02:40around sexual harassment?
02:41As if sexual harassment prior?
02:44Totally cool.
02:45But now?
02:46It seems like every piece of entertainment
02:48requires some bizarre calculation.
02:51Treating women like people
02:52or 30 minutes of entertainment?
02:54I don't know.
02:55I really wanted to ask an expert, so I did.
02:58The David Carr Fellow at the New York Times,
03:00Amanda Heff.
03:02There's this old kind of cliched idea that we should always
03:06separate the art from the artist in our critical assessment
03:10of their work.
03:11But what I was noticing in all of these stories was that
03:14this abuse was like really specifically tied to the work itself.
03:20Louis C.K. is someone who was using his power and his influence
03:24to basically trap colleagues in hotel rooms and to, you know,
03:28take off his clothes and masturbate in front of them.
03:30At the same time, he was making TV shows and recording comedy specials
03:36where he was referencing exhibitionism in this way.
03:39James Toback, the director, would bring women to his hotel room
03:45and would ask them to take their clothes off under the auspices of
03:50auditioning them for a topless role in one of his movies.
03:54And it was increasingly clear to me that this guy was putting
03:57topless scenes in his movies so that he could facilitate his own personal abuse.
04:03Hollywood is a male-dominated place.
04:06And the idea of exploiting women is kind of built into the whole deal.
04:11So the idea that women are only being exploited on screen, I think,
04:16was always kind of a fantasy.
04:19So you're saying the highly sexualized images of women are just the surface.
04:24There's so much more exploitation.
04:26There's a connection, right.
04:27As I thought about how the myth of the artistic genius excuses the abuse of power,
04:32I couldn't help but notice a pattern.
04:34It was all men.
04:35There's Picasso, who famously abused many of the women who posed for his paintings.
04:41Salford Hitchcock, who abused actresses so openly
04:46that you can actually see the dysfunctional power dynamic in his work.
04:51Roman Polanski, who was convicted of drugging and raping a 13-year-old.
04:56And yet we still think of him as a great artist.
04:59Woody Allen, he's accused by his adopted daughter of sexual assault.
05:03Jeffrey Tambor.
05:04Matt Lauer.
05:05James Franco.
05:06Kelly.
05:06Ben Affleck.
05:07Casey Affleck.
05:08Chris Brown.
05:09Bill Cosby.
05:10Charlie Rose.
05:11I never thought I would be so happy to see so little female representation.
05:17What is the level of artistic genius that will allow you to get away with something as terrible as sexual
05:24misconduct?
05:24It's men, and it's men who have critical acclaim and financial success.
05:31This idea that we can continue to celebrate them, to finance their movies, to watch their movies, keeps them in
05:38a position of power where they can offend again.
05:40It's also acceptable and maybe even necessary for us to take into account how something is made in our assessment
05:48of its worth.
05:50So how would you respond to being accused of being a Debbie Downer, a militant feminist, a feminazi, a man
05:58-hater?
06:00I mean, I think this is fun.
06:01I think it's fun to think about art and, like, what goes into it and how it reflects our society.
06:08Like, that's how I get my rocks off, so.
06:11Hmm.
06:12Then what happened?
06:13Talking to Amanda made me realize that the industry merges the art with the artist when it works for them.
06:19And when it doesn't, we say his work transcends his misdeeds.
06:24File that under male privilege.
06:26But how common is sexual misconduct in Hollywood?
06:29To find out, I asked actor and activist Alicia Reiner.
06:34You know her.
06:35She plays Fig on Orange is the New Black.
06:37I feel like sexual harassment and sexual misconduct was so prevalent, in fact, that it was the norm.
06:45It's what was expected.
06:47It wasn't surprising at all.
06:49It just was.
06:50And I think what's magical about this moment is we hit that tipping point, and this has to change.
06:57When you hear the excuse that, oh, there's so much male genius leaving the industry right now, there's so much
07:04talent leaving the industry right now.
07:05I have nothing to say except I want to throw up a little bit in my mouth.
07:08It is my hope that together we will all create art that will be even more glorious and more inclusive.
07:17And that we will create a world that has more safety and equality for all.
07:22And it's only through awareness and deep discomfort that that change happens.
07:28It's like picking a scab that was infected.
07:31And you gotta pick that scab off and take off the infection and put on the hydrogen peroxide, which hurts
07:38like a bitch, and like really clean out the wound.
07:41Right.
07:42And let's see if we can, you know, have a healthier scar now.
07:46So it's okay to feel uncomfortable right now?
07:49I think we're all meant to feel deeply uncomfortable.
07:52Thank you so much.
07:53Like get comfortable with the discomfort.
07:55Yeah.
07:56This is just one of many cultural wounds that's been festering for like centuries.
08:00I guess the only thing we can really do is keep talking about it because sunlight is the best disinfectant.
08:09That was good.
08:10I feel like we really got somewhere.
08:13Same time next week.
