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00:04Hi, I'm Ria Cartwright and today I'll be having a virtual Heart to Heart with Zena Alpha and
00:08Yasmin Lacey about hair discrimination in the UK. This conversation is part of the Finally
00:1329 self-service partnership with Dove and Dove are committed to ending hair discrimination
00:18and changing the narrative on black hair. Our hair comes part of our identity but for
00:23black women it can often be a deep-rooted issue. Western beauty standards have often
00:27dictated that black hair isn't desirable or attractive and black women are made to feel
00:32less than at school, at work and living their day-to-day lives. Joining me today is hair
00:37activist Zena Alpha, a multi-talented producer, presenter and founder of beauty tech app UB Hair.
00:44She also started a petition to ban hair discrimination in the UK in the same way that
00:48it hasn't been done in multiple states in the US. We also have the wonderful singer-songwriter Yasmin Lacey.
00:54Although we often hear her voice accompanied to music, she is also a vocal advocate for natural
00:59hair. Why did you want to start this petition to ban hair discrimination in the UK?
01:04Well, I think it started from a trauma that I had. So, I mean, there's so many reasons why I
01:13started it.
01:14So, I used to chemically straighten my hair and I came into school with braids one day and my maths
01:21teacher, I'll never forget, told me that my hair was disgusting. It wasn't school policy and I needed
01:28to remove it straight away. And that was when I was like, maybe like 12 or 13. After that, I
01:36took out
01:37my hair. Obviously, I was really upset. Eventually, they backed down and they said, okay, fine. You know,
01:42you can have your hair in braids. You can have it however, you know, just make sure that it's like
01:47normal colours. By that point, I was already traumatised and I didn't get braids again until
01:522018. So, that left a long lasting effect on like, me and my relationship with my hair.
01:59You know, when I went to secondary school, I changed my environment from primary school was so much more
02:04diverse and went to secondary school. And that really had a long lasting effect. I refused as a kid to
02:10have braids because I just couldn't, I think I just found it too traumatic, like you said, to deal with
02:15the questions. I chemically relaxed my hair, which is wild when you think about, you know, the damage
02:21that it can do at a young age. You know, that's quite a strong, I remember I used to do
02:25it myself
02:25as well when I'd got to like year eight. Yeah, I used to do it myself. It's so bad, so
02:32bad.
02:33But yeah, and that kind of journey. And that's why I was just like, really happy that you mentioned
02:38the education part because after I, before I went into music, I was working with young people.
02:43And I do find like a lot of those Eurocentric black beauty ideas that are pushed, like really young,
02:49that's where you see them start forming. And then as it gets teenagers, that leads to insecurities,
02:53or maybe just wanting to shrink yourself.
02:56I like wanting to ask a question as well around your experiences. And have you gotten braids since?
03:03Like what, what has kind of been your experience once you, I suppose, developed a bit more self-confidence?
03:10I've just, I've just really enjoyed having my hair as is, do you know what I mean? Like,
03:14but I do think there's still sort of like a pressure on black women to, to have the natural hair
03:21or have
03:21a relaxed hair. And I still, I want people to embrace their natural hair, but I hate the fact
03:26that we have to have this sort of like, you know, pressure on it has to be like this, or
03:31it has to
03:31be like that. And I like the fact that we can experiment with our hair. And, you know,
03:36it's literally defying gravity. We can do so many things with it. And I hate the fact that
03:40because some people don't, you know, a lot of my friends have shaved their heads in because they
03:45don't want the sort of fuss that the hair creates kind of thing.
03:49Have you had like any experiences where, you know, you haven't been able to kind of explore your own
03:55hair and your own individualism because of, because of that?
04:01Yeah. I mean, I think that the team I have around me now is really great. Like I have a
04:06great manager
04:06and we discuss anything that comes up, we discuss it in a way that's like, is this going to put
04:11me
04:11in a situation where I'm not going to feel safe? Well, I'm not going to like it. And so it
04:14starts
04:15from there, that element of protection. And also, but you do get it, you get it, the time when I
04:20find
04:20it the most, you know, and there's, yeah, so I'm probably really lucky in the fact that I'm kind of
04:26guarded from some situations, but it's when it gets to the shoots, there's any shoot or interviews
04:31that involves photos. It's just, it's just like you get there. I always do my hair before because
04:37I just know, like I cannot leave that up to chance. And then you get there and it's like,
04:41they just want to shove so much gel and hairspray in my hair. And, or they do this like really
04:46awkward thing where it's like, oh my God, your hair looks great. So we'll just, we'll just leave
04:51that as it is. Meaning I'm so scared. I don't know what to do with it. So we're just going
04:55to leave
04:55it as it is. And I think that, you know, like, especially now, I think that's a really
05:01compromising situation to be in. So it's like, you're good enough to be in the magazine and we
05:06want the look or whatever, but we're not quite too sure what to do with it. Do you know what
05:10I
05:10mean? Like the colorism thing is such an interesting one because it's a small tip of all the larger
05:15issues, like you said, that are going on. I feel like that is reflected in music, you know,
05:20like, just if you look at the charts, I mean, and you know what, when you're a musician and
05:25you're saying these things, there's always a thing that sounds like you're mad hungry and
05:29it's like, I should be there, but it's not that we have to start looking at things for
05:32what they are. If you look at like whatever music is making the most money and then you
05:38look at the charts, like music of Black Orange makes so much money in the UK and yet it's not
05:44kind of reflected like, or, you know, if I think about the charts over the past few years, there
05:50are so many amazing singers out there. There really are. And I, and it's, it's the same kind
05:56of look. This is the way I think about it now, because it can be quite traumatic to focus on
06:02for me personally, when I'm trying to work, focus on the fact that, you know, this is what the
06:06charts looks like. These are the people that's going to be there in my mind. I think for, I owe
06:11it
06:12to women around me and, and my younger self to just be authentically me and hopefully,
06:18like you said, representation and stuff like that will, you know, trickle down to other
06:24people to feel inspired and to do their own thing in their own way. But I still think it
06:28becomes problematic because in terms of development, that, that's kind of like saying that, you know,
06:35you have to have this whole package. Like music isn't something that should be, you know,
06:39just a visual. So it's actually mad like that. And I think that people are realizing it. There
06:45are a lot of people that are really interested in music, like the actual music.
06:51And that's, that's super interesting. I think like education is a major one, like we spoke
06:57about before. I do think that we should have more people speaking out on it as well. Like
07:03it shouldn't just be like up to like a couple of individuals to like, to change that. Have
07:09those conversations, your friends, family, anyone that will listen about it. And I think
07:16that companies should actually start celebrating black women and blackness. I think it's super
07:21important.
07:21In a non tokenistic way.
07:23Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Get an expert and get someone make, just make sure that it's like a
07:30long lasting thing, ensuring that in their policies at work, like, you know, there's a code of code of
07:35practice. If your hair is neat, like you can have your hair in an Afro, if you wanted to have
07:40it in
07:41an Afro, you know, just be able to like, just ensure that people are protected and people are able to
07:48actually express themselves exactly how they want and able to have their hair in its natural form.
07:54The facts that like so many companies and people essentially tell people that they can't have
08:01their hair in an Afro, which is exactly how their hair grows, obviously shows that that's a form of
08:07discrimination and there's a disconnect there. So those conversations need to be had. So I think like
08:13the first, first and foremost, those, the conversations need to be had. Secondly, education.
08:19And then thirdly, sharing and spreading the word.
08:23I always check in with my black female friends as well, my black
08:27girlfriends, because they keep me grounded, you know, in a world which is telling you this is wrong,
08:32or could you do it a little bit this way? You just need to speak to people that get it.
08:38And, you know,
08:39I would say that's one of the main things like my girlfriends just really keep me sane. The fact that
08:44my hair is strong and it grows like up and out, like they make you value those things when you
08:50just
08:50look at what, how fantastic it is that like our bodies are. Like we hold the blueprint for so much
08:56stuff. And when I think about it like that, I'm like, yeah, like, you know what I mean? Like,
09:01that helps me keep my mind sane.
09:03And I like what you said about there's a reason as well. You know, um, there's a reason why our
09:08hair has is like this. There's a, you know, with a blueprint, there's a reason why our bodies are
09:11shaped in a certain way. Um, and a lot of the time people don't necessarily value that. And actually,
09:18one of the things about Afro hair as well is the reason why our hair grows that way is because
09:23it's
09:24actually protecting us from the sun. Yeah. Um, and so like, and the reason why we have low porosity hair,
09:31like the lower the porosity of your hair, the harder it is for water to seep through so that
09:35it cools you down when you're in that, that hot temperature. And like, no one would know that,
09:41like no, unless you do your own research and you start finding that out for yourself.
09:45Like that's the thing. No. And that's the thing. I think that makes me so sad because like I said,
09:49when I worked with young people, I really saw, because obviously you get to adult yourself,
09:53you know, your own experiences. But then when I started working with young people, I was like,
09:58as a young person, you know, disillusioned by all this, you've got so much work to do independently,
10:05which is the bit that really, that black children are still children that shouldn't be,
10:10you wouldn't expect, you wouldn't expect, uh, most children to have to understand certain social
10:16complexities. Yeah. At a certain age. And we shouldn't expect that of, of black children as
10:21well. That, that one really gets to me. And I think the education thing is like,
10:25yeah, I think it took longer to get the conference that I had to wait to a scenario
10:30where I could go and explore all of these things for myself and, you know, and not everybody has
10:36that in the home. Um, and I do think that is, that is the responsibility of like the wider community,
10:41like to provide that, um, education and schools and yeah. Yeah. 100%.
10:49I completely agree. And like, um, you mentioned about the children. The reason why I laughed was
10:53because like, I was definitely aware of my blackness by like age three. Like I remember,
10:58I used to jump, like, it's so sad because I used to jump on the white square. So, um,
11:03I used to live in like Rotherhithe, um, or like, um, going toward Bermondsey way. And there's the
11:10massive, um, supermarket in Syracuse. And they used to have like these like black and white squares,
11:16you know, like when you go to shopping markets. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember one of my earliest
11:20memories was like jumping on the white squares because I wanted them to turn me white.
11:26I'm like, when I think about that now, I'm so sad. But you know what, this is one thing I
11:32was going
11:32to bring this up actually. This is one, honestly, that, that breaks my heart. And one of the things
11:37that, uh, we have to do as black women is be kind to ourselves now, because it is really shameful,
11:43embarrassing to think about these things. Mate, I was trying to take a relaxer to my head,
11:46like I was a professional hairdresser, like, and I hadn't even done my mocks. Do you know what I mean?
11:51But those things are, this, this is not something for us to feel, you know, I've gonna, I've let my,
11:58that shame go from myself because I've realized where that came from. And you have to realize
12:03you're a baby in this thing. Like you're, you're a kid. Like, of course you were doing that because
12:07you're a child who needs a supportive, nurturing community around them filled by love. And you
12:13weren't getting that. So you're going to try as any human survival thing would to try and emulate the
12:19things that would bring you that love and security. And like, I think, I think it's
12:23important to acknowledge those as well. Like, it's like, we still do live in like a messed up
12:29society. Like it's not, and it's not going to change overnight. And I don't think like in our
12:34generation, it's gonna like change completely, but I do think that there will be a change.
12:41Yeah. And like, maybe for the next generation, maybe that won't be even be an issue. And like,
12:46we won't be having this conversation. Well, they won't be having these conversations because it
12:51will just be the norm. And like everyone, I definitely have this kind of like idea of this
12:56utopia. So naive, but I just like, that's the kind of vision that I have for the, like,
13:03for the world of, you know, us being a lot more accepting and, and understanding towards each other
13:08and like putting value on the things that are most valuable. Right. Almost, almost all of my issues
13:14have come down to race, like the relate, the relationships that I'm with, I'm in the,
13:19the kind of environment that I'm in at work, like all of these things have been all of the problems
13:26and issues. I mean, not all of them, but the majority of these issues and problems have derived
13:31because of, you know, because of the color of my skin and my hair, you know, which is, and my
13:39gender
13:39as well, you know, I forget to put that in there. And then, and it's just like, I have to
13:47make,
13:47I had to make my own, like, like all, because of all of these, because of all of the, all
13:52of these
13:53things, like I've had to create my own space. I've had to create my own business. And even sometimes
13:58with, with business and business partners and things like that, I'm still having those battles,
14:03you know? Yeah. And it's like, it's my business. Like, how are you telling the boss? Like, how are
14:10you still behaving this way? And I'm the boss. And it's something that you just have to keep on
14:15pushing through, keep on pushing through. Absolutely. I don't think it's ever finished.
14:19And like, that's for any, any person. But I think that that's just all, that's just part of like our
14:26story as black people. And the idea of like finishing this journey, like that is, is such
14:35a hard one for me because it's like, I, I see things as an end destination. So when everyone
14:40respects our hair and when everyone has the education, it will be all right, which is so
14:45unrealistic of me to think like that. And I think that it's really, especially like,
14:53yeah, just like, it's just really important to, for you to know as well, that even though the
14:58journey is so long, there are so many people that you would have inspired and have changed
15:03how they think about something. You never underestimate those small things as well.
15:09You know what I mean? I'm so, such a people, like I have been in the past, such a people
15:13pleaser.
15:14Um, that like, I'm always listening to what, like what you said really about, um,
15:18about listening to like all the, like all the noise and, you know, all these thoughts coming
15:23through, like just really kind of like thinking, like trusting what is right for me. Like if you,
15:31if you trust what's right for you and you do what's right for you, you will live your most authentic
15:35life and you will be able to be more empowered and free. Um, but if you don't go by that
15:40and you
15:41follow the rules of other people or like other, any other way, that's when you'll then sometimes get,
15:46um, you'll sometimes fall behind. Um, yeah. And you can get advice from people, which is great,
15:52but ultimately it's up to you. Um, and you have the, you have the, um, power to create your own
16:03narrative. I mean, there's some things that can be like, that can be changed and can't be changed,
16:08but knowing that like, I actually have the opportunity to each day to do something for
16:15myself and to be something for myself is ultimately like the best thing to keep me happy.
16:23Yeah. And that's a massive, massive self-care to like give some one thing,
16:27just one thing a day to yourself. Like that's a massive act of self-care because you'll be surprised
16:31how many people don't. I'm just writing, I'm just writing, uh, my album at the moment. Um,
16:37that is basically the song that I'm finishing off at the moment is basically speaking to your young
16:42self. I reckon for me, just keep it like you are enough, like probably
16:53there is no one else like you and that is your power and you need to own it is like
16:57something that
16:57time and time again is so hard to believe for everybody as an individual that just being you
17:03is the one thing that is going to set you apart from everybody else. That's all you have. And yeah,
17:10just owning it and owning your, like owning it, I think just means that is, is a sort of level
17:19of
17:20comfort with where you are now, like right now, not in, that's what I would, because I think that,
17:27especially when I was younger, the thought was like, well, when I get to 20, like everyone will
17:30love me and it will be brilliant anyway. So it's fine. I'm just waiting until I'm 20. So I mean,
17:36the twenties have come and gone. Um, but yeah, so I think it's like, it's more of the thing of
17:42like,
17:43right now, everything that I am is okay and is enough. And I'm going to own that. That is genuinely
17:49what I think. Because everything else is external and beyond my control. Almost. What about you,
17:57Zane?
18:00Oh, it's a hard one. It's a hard one.
18:02It is a hard one.
18:03Do you know what? I think about this all the time because I feel like this question comes
18:07up quite a lot. Like just when you're like talking to your friends or your family or like,
18:12um, just like in reflection. And, um, I think like when I was a kid, like things were so chaotic.
18:19Um, and like, I, yeah, I struggled with identity quite a bit, but I think, hmm,
18:29like what you said about like being different isn't, is a superpower. So actually like realizing
18:37that the things that you think are bad about yourself are actually like the best things about
18:43you. Um, and in break, fully embracing that. So, um, exploring, you know, the two sides, the,
18:50you know, being British and being Nigerian, like, you know, that is, that is a good thing.
18:56Like there's, there's so much, like so much source, you know, you can, you can, there's so many
19:01different cultures that you can, that you can take from. Um, and there's so much that you can, that you,
19:07yeah, that you can grow from as well. And I think what I kind of like try and say to
19:12myself,
19:13what I would have probably said to my younger self is that, yeah, you have the,
19:16you have the power to create and do anything that you want to. Um, and like, just remain true to
19:24that
19:24and, and just go, like, don't let anyone, like, don't let anyone or anything stop you.
19:30I think Zina, that is an amazing place to leave this on. I want to thank everybody for watching.
19:37Do make sure to share and comment. Obviously go and sign Zina's petition is very important.
19:42Yes.
19:45Narrative on black henrimination. So that the future for black women, for black people is just
19:51very different from where we're at today. And the full feature will be on the website.
19:56So thank you so much, ladies, for your time.
19:59Thank you so much.
20:00Thank you so much.