- 13 minutes ago
15 years after Andrew Garfield’s masterclass as Eduardo Saverin in The Social Network, the British-American actor has returned to the tech-CEO sphere to bring Sam Altman to life in Artificial. Here Garfield chats with GQ’s Katherine Stoeffel about taking the tech bros to the big screen, baring his soul in the zeitgeist and what’s next for him… and the world. Credits:Director: Nick CollettDirector of Photography: Eileen YoonEditor: Matt BraunsdorfHost: Kat StoeffelGuest: Andrew GarfieldProducer: Camille RamosLine Producer: Jen SantosProduction Manager: Evie RoopGlobal Entertainment Director: Dana MathewsCamera Operator: Carlos AraujoAssistant Camera: Tommy ChanGaffer: David DjacoGrip: Salif SoumahoroSound Mixer: Sean PaulsenProduction Assistant: Karla Torres; Owen WrightGroomer: (KS) Yev Wright-MasonFact-Checker: Joseph FrischmuthPost Production Supervisor: Stella ShortinoSupervising Editor: Rob LombardiAssistant Editor: Billy WardExecutive Producer: Cara MarceanteDirector, Creative: Nick CollettDirector, Programming: Jeremy Clowney
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Talk to me about being a guy who cries on TV.
00:04It's funny.
00:06It's so funny.
00:14We are in New York City.
00:16That is the FTR and the East River behind us.
00:20There's a highway.
00:21And you are here because of Artificial,
00:25the Luca Guadagnino film about the story of the founding of OpenAI.
00:30Premiered last night here in New York.
00:33But back in San Francisco,
00:34they are still only reacting to the trailer.
00:37Jack Altman, Sam Altman's younger brother.
00:39I've listened to his podcast.
00:40There you go.
00:41You're familiar with his work.
00:43Okay.
00:44He writes on X.
00:45Look, you all know I'd love nothing more than a feature length film
00:49making fun of my brother.
00:51Unfortunately, based on the preview,
00:53it looks like the only thing they got right is the walk.
00:56All right.
00:57So you've seen that.
00:58I've seen that.
00:58Tell me about it.
00:59And first of all, like the walk,
01:00everyone's talking about the walk.
01:02So this is not,
01:03Jack Altman is not out on a limb here.
01:05How did you know the walk?
01:07The walk was a really,
01:09it was a key for me and the clothes and the physicality.
01:11He's very,
01:11he's very,
01:13he's very,
01:13very,
01:13very slight,
01:14slim,
01:15um,
01:16guy,
01:17Sam.
01:17And,
01:18and seems to be very image conscious,
01:21which is interesting to me,
01:22which is something that I felt compelled by and watching videos and listening to podcasts and interviews.
01:29There's a great video of Sam in a,
01:31what looks like a diner when he's talking about looped when he's in his early twenties.
01:36Right.
01:36So this is a company he founded before starting open AI.
01:39Exactly.
01:40And,
01:40and before he was at Y Combinator and he was much freer with his physicality back then.
01:46You're doing some like a highly unconventional,
01:49like athletic sitting on chairs.
01:53You're sort of like.
01:54That was deeply researched.
01:55Oh,
01:56okay.
01:58There's a lot of people that know Sam.
02:00There's a lot of people that are happy to talk about Sam.
02:02Some very,
02:03very protective others,
02:04you know,
02:05slightly more inside information.
02:07And I'm not going to name who these people are.
02:09Good.
02:10I love what working that way.
02:11I love preparing a lot and deeply.
02:15And yeah,
02:15a lot of people said he would never sit conventionally.
02:19He was always sitting like a little boy.
02:22And it sort of invites some sort of like intimacy that's otherwise not.
02:27Intimacy,
02:27but also ownership of a space.
02:29Yeah.
02:30A kind of subtle,
02:32very soft dominate dominance of a space.
02:34But also,
02:34as you say,
02:35like a kind of,
02:36Hey,
02:36we're all just kind of like hanging out doing the coolest job ever.
02:39So like,
02:39why wouldn't it just be like,
02:41why can't we just sit?
02:42Like we're in a dorm room.
02:43It's like,
02:43Right.
02:44It's very psychologically interesting to me and smart.
02:48And who knows if it's all calculated?
02:51Who knows if it's,
02:52if it's not,
02:53I don't know.
02:53I feel like a lot of,
02:54a lot of,
02:55you know,
02:56Steve Jobs wearing the same outfit every day.
02:58Elizabeth Holmes kind of taking on that mantle.
03:02Zuckerberg going through all the strange Christ identity crises.
03:06He's going whatever the hell he's going through.
03:09Um,
03:10you know,
03:10it's,
03:10it's very,
03:11it's a very image.
03:12It's become a very,
03:13very,
03:13and I think Sam is very,
03:14very image conscious,
03:15but what's,
03:16what was interesting in tracking his physicality in all the videos I saw is at the beginning,
03:20he is,
03:21he's very free in how he twitches and moves and a kind of,
03:26um,
03:26yeah,
03:27he's just freer in his ability to be his true self,
03:30maybe.
03:31And then as he,
03:32as he starts to become more and more powerful and ultimately becoming the face of the new world,
03:39this behemoth company that's going to define where we are going,
03:44even if he doesn't know where we are going.
03:47Yeah.
03:47And none of them do.
03:48He,
03:48he becomes a slightly more almost homogenized version of a,
03:54of a tech CEO.
03:56as,
03:57um,
03:57as,
03:58as things develop.
03:59And,
03:59and that was a really,
04:00really interesting kind of,
04:02kind of,
04:02kind of journey.
04:03And you,
04:03and you,
04:03and you can see now in the Vanity Fair piece,
04:05he's very image conscious.
04:07And,
04:07and I,
04:08I am too.
04:09I think we all are in the kind of trying to belong to the black mirror of our,
04:14of our phone screen.
04:15Well,
04:15yeah,
04:16I was going to ask,
04:16like,
04:16do you relate to him?
04:19Yeah.
04:19I mean,
04:20yes,
04:20I,
04:20one has to one.
04:22This is the job.
04:23And this is why I wanted to do it because I had done the social network and I was getting
04:28ready to play Mark Zuckerberg.
04:29And then David Fincher calls me in and says,
04:31we found someone that is just going to do it better.
04:33It's Jesse.
04:34And,
04:35but we think you could also play this part who,
04:38and,
04:38and,
04:38and you,
04:39and you're a very emotional actor,
04:41Andrew.
04:41So why would we waste all of that on someone who doesn't seem to feel many emotions?
04:46So Eduardo became my kind of guy and I was very happy with that.
04:49But then now it,
04:50but it left a little dangling thread and I was like,
04:53I need to understand.
04:54Cause I started to explore what it takes to be,
05:00to win,
05:01to win in that level.
05:03And I think I like,
05:05I'm a competitive person.
05:06I was great.
05:07I was raised by a swimming coach father.
05:09And that kind of,
05:10at that time,
05:11a proud capitalist.
05:12And he's,
05:13my dad has,
05:13has evolved his,
05:15his view of the world over the course of the last decades,
05:18which I find very moving and touching as,
05:21as I have evolved my view of winning and losing and,
05:24and the beauty of losing and the kind of the,
05:28how humility,
05:29how humility is the only thing that actually grows us.
05:33And it's fucking awful.
05:35I hate losing.
05:36Is it hard?
05:37Is it hard to find ways to sort of get your butt kicked?
05:41No.
05:41The more successful you get.
05:42No.
05:43It's easy to find them.
05:43It's so much easier.
05:45Really?
05:45Because you're on this fucking false pedestal and it's so much
05:48easier for the shit to get kicked out.
05:50And it's like,
05:50Oh,
05:50wait a minute.
05:51I,
05:52I forgot that like this fight,
05:55like I'm,
05:56I got above my station for a minute and,
05:59and,
05:59uh,
06:00it's a wonderful,
06:01horrible gift to be forced to crawl back down into the mud of what
06:06it is to be a human being.
06:08And actually,
06:08I think it does relate to the story that we're talking about,
06:12the film that we're talking about,
06:14a kind of a culture of obsession with ascending.
06:18Yeah.
06:19You said that as you've,
06:21you know,
06:22matured,
06:22you've,
06:23um,
06:24changed everything about winning and losing.
06:26I'm trying.
06:26So what does it look like?
06:27What does winning mean for you now?
06:29Uh,
06:30well,
06:30it's evolving.
06:31It's,
06:31it's,
06:31I think when we're young,
06:33I don't know,
06:33I'll speak for myself.
06:34When I'm in my twenties,
06:35thirties,
06:35it was a time of slaying dragons and trying to plant flags and say,
06:39this is who I am.
06:40And,
06:40and then I think,
06:45I think maybe as you enter middle age,
06:48a bunch of unresolved wounds from childhood that you kind of patched over
06:57with success,
06:58just go,
06:59Hey,
06:59we're still here,
07:00dude.
07:01Okay.
07:02And,
07:02and then it's time to,
07:04to realize that there's still a lot of work to do on maturation.
07:10And I,
07:10and again,
07:11I'm sorry,
07:12but to keep bringing it back to the film in the world rings,
07:14I think it's related.
07:16I think what we're dealing with is a,
07:18a very,
07:19uh,
07:20we're,
07:20we're,
07:20we're in a very immature culture.
07:22Like we're in a very adolescent.
07:25We're being still defined by this kind of adolescent,
07:28um,
07:29impulse to,
07:30to win at all costs.
07:32And that losing is weak.
07:35And the vulnerability is weak.
07:37And the humility is actually not allowed.
07:40And,
07:40um,
07:41what was that T-shirt in the fashion show that was happening recently?
07:44I bring back shame.
07:46I mean,
07:46people will respond to that as they,
07:48as they do,
07:48but how I respond to it positively is there's something to be,
07:52it's like bring back accountability,
07:54bring back accountability for our inhumanity to each other.
07:57So I think humility is a surefire way to get us back to our collective humanity.
08:02I,
08:03I feel so.
08:04Anyway,
08:05I,
08:05but it's hard.
08:05I'm,
08:06it's hard.
08:06I love,
08:07I love winning.
08:08I love it.
08:09So it's so much easier when,
08:11when things are going great,
08:12but I think it's probably easier for,
08:16for your soul.
08:17I think it's like,
08:18it's good.
08:19It's better for your soul when things aren't going so great.
08:21When was the last time things weren't going great for you?
08:23From the outside,
08:23I'm just seeing.
08:24Yeah, I know from the outside is,
08:25yeah,
08:26but yeah,
08:27it's been a,
08:28it's been a weird few years for me.
08:30Yeah.
08:30I've had a weird few years and just in my own life.
08:33And I think it is related to what I feel in the world in terms of the transition we're in.
08:40And the kind of feels like the cult that we're,
08:42we're in a falling apart culture that there is no center anymore.
08:46And I think it's hard to find our own center within that lack of center in the world.
08:50Okay.
08:50Let's stay here for a second because,
08:52um,
08:53yeah,
08:53you're,
08:53you're,
08:54I understand that you have private parts of your life and that makes sense to me,
08:58but you also are like very emotionally expressive.
09:01Yeah.
09:01You're a sharer.
09:02Yeah.
09:02You go deep.
09:03And I'm just kind of curious where that comes from.
09:06Yeah.
09:06I don't know.
09:06Is it, have you always been that way?
09:07Yeah.
09:08I think I was a real pain in the ass to my family.
09:10Cause I was like,
09:11what's that?
09:12What are you,
09:12what's happening there?
09:13That's fucked up.
09:14And they're like,
09:15shut the fuck up, Andy.
09:16Like shut the fuck up.
09:18I was that kid pointing out the stuff that wasn't being said and was being felt.
09:24Cause I,
09:25I could just feel it all.
09:26I don't know.
09:27Yeah.
09:27I don't know.
09:28It's mysterious to me,
09:29but it was,
09:29it was a hassle for me as well.
09:31I was like,
09:31I don't want to,
09:31like be so sensitive to it.
09:33I don't want to want to hug my bully after he like beats the shit out of me.
09:38It's like,
09:38I can just feel his pain.
09:40It'd be so much easier not to feel this.
09:42It would be a lot easier to not have to see and feel all of these things that I may
09:47just be making up,
09:47but I'm pretty sure I'm not.
09:49Anyway.
09:49Yeah.
09:49It was a radar that I've had since I was a kid,
09:51I guess.
09:52And I think my family would say the same thing.
09:54And I think they would also agree that it was a bit of a pain in the ass.
09:57Oh yeah.
09:57I mean,
09:58that's sort of my,
09:58a related question,
09:59which is like you have been deep and emotionally expressive in interviews before it was fashionable,
10:05when it was fashionable for men to sort of like get in touch with their feelings.
10:09And you are still that way now that there are parts of culture that are saying like,
10:13let men be men again.
10:14Sure.
10:15Toxic empathy.
10:16So my,
10:17my question is,
10:18you know,
10:18Toxic empathy.
10:19I read that one.
10:19Yeah.
10:19Isn't that crazy?
10:20It's amazing.
10:21It's amazing.
10:22Toxic empathy is,
10:23is,
10:23is the,
10:24the death of our civilization,
10:25right?
10:26It's like,
10:26it means that we're going to lose in the,
10:28we're going to lose.
10:29It means that we're going to lose.
10:30It all comes back to winning and losing.
10:32Something.
10:33Rather than lose our souls.
10:34Yeah.
10:34Yeah.
10:34Yes.
10:35Yikes.
10:36Anyway,
10:36sorry.
10:37We'll come back there.
10:39But I,
10:39you know,
10:40just like,
10:40how is this instinct for sharing and emotional honesty?
10:45Like,
10:45how has it not been beaten out of you?
10:46I guess is my question by like public life.
10:49Talk to me about being a guy who cries on TV.
10:53It's funny.
10:55That's so funny.
10:56Why?
10:57I don't know.
10:58It's just funny to me to cat,
10:59to,
10:59to categorize it at all,
11:01because it's just,
11:02I guess I don't really think about it from an objective point of view.
11:05I just am trying my hardest to survive.
11:11And,
11:11and,
11:12and I think I discovered early on that being allowed to be truthful emotionally was as important to me as
11:23breathing.
11:23Yeah.
11:24And it happened when I found acting.
11:25It saved,
11:26that saved me.
11:27Because until then,
11:29I w,
11:30I didn't feel like I was,
11:31I feel like it was forbidden.
11:33I need a place
11:34to go and express all of the most difficult shit about me.
11:39I would venture to say,
11:40and this is a bit of a bold statement,
11:42that we all need that.
11:43I do think we all need proper private community where all of the unsaid shit can get said.
11:53And without that, we're going to be governed and controlled by a bunch of unresolved pain and wounds that we
12:03don't,
12:04that we,
12:05that,
12:05that we're too afraid to look at.
12:07It really happened when I was doing Spider-Man and I was like,
12:10oh shit,
12:11I'm,
12:11I'm now really like,
12:13I,
12:13it's,
12:13I'm in danger of losing myself to an identity.
12:17And I'm in danger of over identifying with,
12:22you know,
12:22it's like the,
12:22what they say about famous,
12:24really,
12:24really famous people.
12:25They walk into any room and they're like,
12:27everyone's so nice.
12:29And it's like,
12:29no,
12:30you're just,
12:31you're just like,
12:32I don't know.
12:33I can like,
12:34I don't,
12:35I don't,
12:35I don't know.
12:36I don't know this person,
12:37but you can say like,
12:38you know,
12:38you're just Tom Cruise.
12:40Like,
12:41and everyone wants to hang out with Tom Cruise.
12:44I mean,
12:45I,
12:45I do know Tom and I,
12:47and I really,
12:48and I haven't seen him in a long time.
12:49I only bring him up because he's like,
12:52one of the most famous people in the world.
12:53And I happen to know him a little bit and really have enjoyed
12:56and have a lot of admiration for him.
12:58But it's,
12:59for me,
13:00it was like a big danger that I would start to think that was,
13:04that was a reflection of who I am.
13:06Yeah.
13:06Do you know what I mean?
13:07It's like,
13:09and so,
13:10I think in order to hold on to,
13:13my ability to be messy,
13:15my ability to be,
13:16to lose,
13:17my ability to be weak,
13:19quote unquote,
13:20my ability to be all of the things that our culture says a man should not be,
13:26or even a person should not be.
13:27I,
13:28I,
13:29I sort out places and people and spaces and groups that would allow for me just to stay in touch
13:41with all of the messiest parts of myself.
13:44All of the really,
13:45all the stuff that I'm not going to talk about here because it's not safe to talk about them here.
13:49And that's no offense to you.
13:50I'm sure if the cameras were not rolling,
13:52we could have a good time and we can get into it.
13:54But if we do it and you know,
13:56whoever,
13:56whatever publication is going to take a thing and make it into it,
14:00you know,
14:00you get it.
14:01Yeah.
14:02Weaponized,
14:03weaponized vulnerability,
14:04whatever it is.
14:06Yeah.
14:06Well,
14:07it does seem like you choose moments to share very deeply.
14:11And I,
14:11I mean,
14:12I just,
14:12I know those resonate.
14:13Like you've been going viral for approximately four years for talking about the grief stuff on Colbert.
14:20Are you surprised how much that's been a part of your,
14:22your legacy?
14:24Pleasantly.
14:24You're like 43,
14:26too early to say legacy,
14:26but part of your,
14:27I don't know.
14:28I may not have much longer left.
14:29Part of your role and culture.
14:31Has it surprised you how much?
14:32Very pleasantly,
14:33very,
14:34very pleasantly,
14:34completely unintentional.
14:36I,
14:37you know,
14:38literally before I was going on to do the show,
14:40Steven,
14:41Steven's assistant came into the,
14:43into the dressing room with me and my,
14:45my dad and my brother and,
14:47and said,
14:48Hey,
14:49he might bring up this.
14:50Is that okay?
14:50I'm like,
14:51give me a second.
14:53I kind of checked in with myself.
14:55And I was like,
14:55yeah,
14:55sure.
14:56Cause I love Steven.
14:57I trust him.
14:57And I,
14:57I know that he's very good with those kinds of topics.
15:00He's got,
15:01he's a really great container in that way.
15:05So it was very spontaneous.
15:06And then I think I said a prayer before I went on.
15:09I was just like,
15:09Hey mom,
15:11you know,
15:11whatever you got,
15:13just let me be the channel,
15:15whatever you,
15:16whatever you want me to say,
15:17whatever,
15:18whatever you don't want me to say,
15:20just like,
15:21use me.
15:22I'm here to be used for,
15:24for the,
15:24for the good,
15:25whatever that means.
15:26And then the rest is just kind of a spontaneous moment that was lucky enough to,
15:32to get captured.
15:32And then,
15:34yeah,
15:35I was very,
15:35very moved that so many people were,
15:38um,
15:39have been and continue to be,
15:41I get texts about it yesterday.
15:43People who lose people,
15:44they,
15:44they get sent that clip.
15:46And it's like,
15:47Oh man,
15:49that's like,
15:51and,
15:51and that's not,
15:53that's not,
15:54um,
15:55that's a pretty weak thing.
15:57in certain.
15:58So it's like,
15:58no,
15:58come on,
15:59get on with it.
15:59Move forward,
16:00move forward,
16:00move forward.
16:01You're saying that,
16:01uh,
16:02to be perceived grieving could be taken as a sign of weakness.
16:05Yeah.
16:06There's a taboo around the subject in our culture.
16:08And also people are just so scared of dying.
16:10Yeah.
16:11Like we're all so fucking scared of dying because we're some,
16:14we've somehow been led to believe that,
16:16well,
16:17not me.
16:18I'm not,
16:18I shouldn't,
16:19I shouldn't have to fucking die.
16:20It's like,
16:20no,
16:20we're all going to fucking,
16:21it's this Ascension kind of obsession.
16:24Yeah.
16:25I do find the fact that.
16:27Some of the most powerful people in the world right now,
16:29literally don't think they're going to die.
16:31I find that like very,
16:32very unsettling.
16:33it's immature and it's deluded and it's,
16:35it's,
16:36it's a little adorable.
16:37It's like,
16:38Oh,
16:38that's so cute.
16:39You think you can outsmart like the great mystery.
16:43Oh my God.
16:45It's adorable.
16:46Uh,
16:47and it,
16:47and it's,
16:48it's,
16:48it's kind of sweet,
16:49but it's very,
16:50it's infantile.
16:51It's,
16:53and it's cowardly.
16:54Yes.
16:55It's fucking,
16:55it's fucking cowardly.
16:57Like,
16:57I totally agree.
16:58It's so scary.
17:01Like dying.
17:02It's like the scariest adventure that we can,
17:05any of us,
17:06and we're all going to go on it and it doesn't make sense.
17:09But,
17:10but as soon as I think that's the,
17:12that's the place that I find really exciting.
17:15Is the not knowing is,
17:17is,
17:17is,
17:18is when we're,
17:18is when we're all on the threshold of not knowing that's when people get
17:22interesting.
17:23And I say that with some irony,
17:25I suppose,
17:26because we're being led by a bunch of younger guys right now who don't know
17:31where this technology is taking us.
17:33So I suppose there's something to celebrate in that threshold.
17:38But anyway,
17:39that's,
17:39that,
17:39that's kind of,
17:41that's,
17:42that's kind of cracked my brain a little bit in real time.
17:45I have to think more about that.
17:47Yeah.
17:47I have to think about what you said.
17:48Um,
17:48but okay.
17:49So true to your reputation,
17:51deep,
17:52fast,
17:52we skipped over,
17:53we skipped,
17:54don't apologize,
17:54but we skipped over maybe some like nuts and bolts of the movie.
17:58Is it okay if I double back?
17:59Okay.
18:00The crisis of this movie.
18:02Yeah.
18:03Is that Sam Altman's colleagues come to feel that he has misled them in a way
18:09that makes them uncomfortable with him at,
18:12at the,
18:13at the top of this very consequential endeavor.
18:16Of course.
18:17But like,
18:17what's,
18:17what is lying in your life?
18:18What does it mean to you?
18:20How did you approach it in this story?
18:22Yeah.
18:22So that,
18:23that there's a lot of that,
18:24that wasn't,
18:24there was an overwhelming amount of reporting,
18:28um,
18:28done about Sam having a specific relationship with the truth.
18:36And it was obviously a really vital ingredient in,
18:40in our,
18:41in our story.
18:41Cause he's very charming by all accounts.
18:45Like the,
18:45there's a,
18:45the quote in the movie that if,
18:47if,
18:48if Sam Altman was dropped into an island of cannibals,
18:51he would,
18:51he would be their king in five years.
18:54All of these things were so juicy for me to imagine and to merge with and to interpret.
19:01It's the cauldron.
19:02There is,
19:02there's all these ingredients.
19:03There's so many spices.
19:05There's so much there.
19:06there.
19:06So to the point where it's like,
19:08how did,
19:09does the person know when,
19:13like what's true and what's not,
19:14or is it all true to that person?
19:17Is that consciousness?
19:19You know,
19:19it's,
19:20it's all of those questions.
19:21So I,
19:22so I answered that for myself.
19:23I,
19:24I had to look at myself with my relationship to the truth,
19:27to universal truth,
19:28to personal truth,
19:29to objective truth,
19:30the subjective,
19:30someone else's truth about me.
19:32What'd you learn?
19:32What'd you learn when you went deep on truth?
19:34Tell me.
19:34I'm curious.
19:35I try my hardest.
19:37I'm a human being.
19:38I've definitely not been a perfect human being.
19:40I sound like Sam right now.
19:41I think in that vanity fair interview,
19:43he was like,
19:44you know,
19:44I'm not a saint.
19:45Like,
19:45it's like,
19:46I'm,
19:46I'm the same.
19:47I'm like,
19:48I'm a person.
19:49And I give myself the permission to be a person as hard as that can be.
19:53I hold myself to a quite a rigorous sense of integrity.
19:57I,
19:57I feel,
19:58I mean,
19:58maybe this is a question better asked to people who are closest to me in my life,
20:02to be honest.
20:02Like I would say that like,
20:03I'm,
20:04I wouldn't be a reliable narrator in terms of,
20:07in terms of that.
20:09Yeah,
20:09it is.
20:10I do find it.
20:11There's something very interesting about lying,
20:13deception, telling people what they want to hear.
20:15It's part of human nature.
20:17It is.
20:17That's interesting because I think there's like a survival instinct in lying.
20:21Right.
20:22I think there's like a self preservation in the lies we tell each other and the lies we tell ourselves.
20:28But I wonder how that plays out in terms of the technology,
20:32that it's being baked into.
20:34Well,
20:34when Claude once lied to me and I actually found it very charming.
20:37Really?
20:37What did he like to you about?
20:38It just like pretended to know something it didn't.
20:40And I was like,
20:40I don't think you could know that.
20:41And he was like,
20:42you're right.
20:42I made it up.
20:43And I was like,
20:44I was like,
20:45it was the only time I ever like,
20:47fell in love with Claude.
20:49The only time I was ever attracted to Claude.
20:52Claude briefly became adorable to me.
20:54You're blushing at the end.
20:56At Claude's.
20:57My Claude.
20:58Well,
20:58there's something,
21:00there's something interesting in that though,
21:02because it's like,
21:03Claude was revealing to you its fallibility.
21:08Yes.
21:09And that is adorable to us.
21:11As you,
21:11like that's where,
21:12that's where we fall in love with each other.
21:14It's like,
21:14Oh my God,
21:14I'm fallible too.
21:16And you just revealed,
21:17it goes back to the kind of exposure of the kind of,
21:20the,
21:20the weaker,
21:22scarier parts.
21:23I know.
21:24Well,
21:24you brought the social network,
21:25came out 15 years ago.
21:27Um,
21:28Sorry.
21:30Nice.
21:31Scratch.
21:32You okay?
21:32No, it's fine.
21:33Is that personal or costume?
21:35It's personal.
21:35But also you kind of go,
21:37Oh,
21:38that's never happened.
21:39And then you kind of look at everything.
21:40I start,
21:41I just look at everything symbolically.
21:42I'm like,
21:42what does that mean?
21:43I'm like,
21:43Oh,
21:43shut up Andrew.
21:44Carry on.
21:45Oh my God.
21:45I know it's exhausting.
21:47It's exhausting.
21:48It's exhausting.
21:50Oh my God.
21:50Imagine how my,
21:51my parents felt.
21:52Andrew,
21:53please just,
21:53we're playing Monopoly.
21:54It doesn't fucking matter,
21:56dude.
21:56I know.
21:57I was going to,
21:57you know,
21:58I have like little boys and I was going to be like,
21:59how do I make my boys not shut down emotionally?
22:01And now I'm like,
22:02maybe a little bit of shut down.
22:05Do less,
22:07slightly less.
22:09Um,
22:09it's true.
22:10No,
22:10by the way.
22:11No,
22:11I'm joking.
22:12It's nice.
22:12It's good.
22:13It's good to be.
22:14Right.
22:15It's a balance.
22:16Okay.
22:16Um,
22:17back to the movie.
22:18I was wondering if you could reflect on the difference between the release of the social network and the release
22:24of this,
22:24of artificials.
22:25Do you feel the difference between those two moments in terms of the power of tech?
22:29Yes,
22:29I do.
22:30Do you?
22:31Yeah.
22:31Yeah.
22:33I,
22:33I do.
22:33Yes.
22:34Yes.
22:34Well,
22:34I think at that time,
22:38at social network time,
22:39I think everyone you spoke to about,
22:42before,
22:42before the movie came out,
22:44it was like,
22:44people were scoffing at the idea of a Facebook movie because no one knew,
22:47no one was really onto the tech industry and the people that were governing it in the same way.
22:54And of course,
22:55like the founding of Facebook led leads to so much now,
22:59you know,
23:00emerging research about addiction in all of us,
23:03but particularly in children and mental health issues.
23:06And also,
23:07you know,
23:08post truth issues,
23:09like so many issues.
23:10Yeah.
23:11And,
23:11and now obviously we're all a bit more hip to it.
23:14Um,
23:16and by the public becoming more hip to it,
23:19but also powerful people becoming more hip to it,
23:21realizing that that's where the power lies.
23:23Yeah.
23:24It does feel like much higher stakes in kind of equal measure.
23:28I feel like for regular people like you and I,
23:32it's higher stakes because we're all,
23:34we all,
23:35we all have,
23:35I feel like I have our eyes slightly more open now to,
23:39to the,
23:39to the kind of,
23:40um,
23:41the real world personal consequences of these technologies.
23:44Um,
23:45so we're slightly healthily more invested in shining light where that,
23:49where that power lies and where we're giving our autonomy.
23:52Did you ever,
23:53I think,
23:53but I'm sort of getting at it.
23:55It's like,
23:55did you ever feel afraid?
23:56Yeah.
23:56I feel afraid now.
23:57Yeah,
23:57you do.
23:57I do.
23:58Yeah.
23:58Um,
23:58but,
23:59but like,
24:00it's outweighed by a faith in humanity,
24:04but also a faith in,
24:08I don't,
24:08I don't know,
24:09in some,
24:10in the mystery of life.
24:11I feel like it's a,
24:12it's the artist's responsibility to reflect the times we're in.
24:16And I think it's getting harder and harder to do that without fear of consequences from those in power,
24:21who you are rocking the boat for.
24:24That being said,
24:25there's another part of me that's like,
24:26I don't think this is going to touch them in a way.
24:29You know what I mean?
24:29There's a part of me that's like,
24:30I wonder if this,
24:31it's they're too big to fail.
24:32They're too big.
24:33It's like,
24:34they're able to go,
24:35well, they got the walk right,
24:36but everything else is kind of bullshit.
24:37And then they move on because it's small potatoes to them.
24:40I'm not sure.
24:40I'm not in their sphere.
24:42I'm really,
24:43really,
24:44really curious to see how it all plays out.
24:47I woke up and I was,
24:48because I saw Sam's interview on Vanity Fair and I was like,
24:50oh shit,
24:51I'm playing that guy and people are going to see it tonight.
24:54And that,
24:55he's just been named the most powerful man in the world by this publication.
24:58And it was kind of like,
25:00well,
25:00this is like genuinely a cool thing to be a part of and feels courageous,
25:06like being led by Luca because he's so,
25:08he says he's not afraid,
25:09which I really admire and respect.
25:10I am afraid,
25:12but like,
25:12I'm still willing to kind of like put it on the line,
25:15but we'll see.
25:16There was something really great about just seeing the guys,
25:19the AI guys,
25:20like just depicted.
25:21It was like,
25:22oh yeah,
25:22we can still do this.
25:24Like we do,
25:24we do still live in a society where you can make fun of Elon Musk a little bit.
25:29Yes.
25:30Yes.
25:31Praise God.
25:31Yeah.
25:32So I hope people,
25:33I think people will feel that.
25:35I think people are craving it,
25:35but then there's always people that come out and defend.
25:38It's,
25:39it's so strange whether they're bots or otherwise,
25:41I'm not sure.
25:42But there's,
25:42there's just an army of people that are like,
25:44leave those rich guys alone.
25:46I'm like,
25:46what?
25:47They have to be bots.
25:49I have no idea.
25:50I just have to assume.
25:52It's insane to me.
25:54To go back to Sam Altman in Vanity Fair.
25:56He told a really remarkable story about walking out of his home and running into the production of Artificial and
26:03seeing you.
26:04I wasn't there.
26:05Did you have a body double?
26:06No.
26:06And I replayed it a few times to try and discern what he was actually saying.
26:11Cause when I first heard it,
26:12I thought he said that we waved at each other.
26:14And then I was like,
26:15I need to make sure that I'm clear about what he said so that I'm not misrepresenting it.
26:21Because I was very confused by that.
26:23It wasn't,
26:24I didn't have any,
26:25never had an interaction with him.
26:27I've never seen him in real life.
26:29We were shooting outside of his house.
26:30I was looking for him all that day.
26:32Yeah.
26:33I was looking in every window and every street corner.
26:36It was an eerie day for sure.
26:38Cause I was like,
26:39Oh, at any moment.
26:40And,
26:40and we were told that he wasn't home and his security people were there.
26:44But I think I saw one security guard,
26:46but I,
26:46but no,
26:47I never,
26:47I never saw Sam.
26:48So he maybe,
26:49he's maybe mistook me for someone else.
26:51I don't,
26:51I don't,
26:52I have no idea,
26:53but it,
26:53I did not,
26:54I've never waved at Sam.
26:55I've never seen him.
26:57Um,
26:58and I was,
26:58yeah,
26:59I was curious about that.
27:00Okay.
27:00We skipped around a ton,
27:01my friends.
27:06the televangelist.
27:07He died today.
27:08He died today.
27:08Or I think maybe yesterday.
27:09Yeah.
27:10Um,
27:10I was just,
27:10I,
27:11I just wondered,
27:12you play,
27:14you've played a lot of real people.
27:15Yeah.
27:16What is your relationship to them after you're done playing them in your life?
27:20What does it mean to you that he died?
27:22You know?
27:22Yeah.
27:24Oof.
27:25Oof.
27:26Jeez.
27:27So weird actors.
27:29They get given much more credit and,
27:32and power than they should.
27:34I,
27:34it's like,
27:36you're like,
27:36I don't know.
27:37I'm like,
27:38like to ask someone who knew him,
27:40ask someone who followed him,
27:42ask someone who was in love with,
27:43you know,
27:44but I,
27:45I'm not,
27:45I'm not criticizing you for asking me the question.
27:47I,
27:47I'm criticizing our culture.
27:49Well,
27:50I guess the reason it feels relevant to me is,
27:53I,
27:54I don't think I'm breaking news to you here,
27:56but I think you might forever be linked with Sam Altman in the imagination.
28:02Whoa.
28:02The culture.
28:03That's scary.
28:04Oh,
28:04I wondered if you think about,
28:06well,
28:07I'm scared of the idea that,
28:08I mean,
28:09it's,
28:10it's not scary in terms of the link.
28:11It's fine by me.
28:13Maybe we're getting,
28:13maybe I'm getting into some survival stuff for myself.
28:15Like I don't,
28:16I want,
28:17I don't,
28:17I don't want to make really powerful enemies.
28:19I don't want to do that,
28:20but I'm not saying that that's certainly what's going to happen,
28:24but I don't know if he's going to feel warm towards me.
28:29And,
28:31that's okay.
28:32But there's still a part of me that,
28:34that wants everyone to be okay all the time.
28:38And,
28:39and therefore I'm okay.
28:40You know what I mean?
28:42Like,
28:43so,
28:44yeah,
28:44it's a,
28:45it's a slightly backtracking impulse,
28:47but no,
28:48I mean,
28:49it's,
28:49it's an interesting position to be in.
28:51I know Jesse Eisenberg has said,
28:54they sort of doesn't want to be associated with Mark Zuckerberg for the rest of his life.
28:58Sure.
28:59I'm not concerned about that.
29:00I feel like,
29:01and I don't think Jesse should be either.
29:03I think he's such an incredible artist and an actor and director writer.
29:08He's,
29:08he's,
29:09he's,
29:11you know,
29:11and I,
29:12and I feel,
29:12and I feel safe in that.
29:14I will make other things and this will be a part of my work.
29:18And that's that.
29:19And there'll be other things that take away from that.
29:22And I mean,
29:22the,
29:22I know the beginning of my obituary will be erstwhile Spider-Man.
29:26You know what I mean?
29:27Like,
29:27I was going to ask,
29:28because it's sort of comforting to know like you've got Spider-Man.
29:31And so like for a lot of people,
29:34I mean,
29:34I do think all due respect to Sam Altman.
29:37I do think Spider-Man will always be bigger than like almost everything.
29:41Everything.
29:42I don't know if there's a fictional character that's more popular universally.
29:45I don't think so.
29:46In modern times.
29:47Like two year old is.
29:48I'm like,
29:48how do you even,
29:49what is it?
29:50It's instinctive.
29:50It's instinctive.
29:51It's like primal.
29:52It's like,
29:53I want that.
29:54I want to be that.
29:55I am that.
29:56I'm going to do that.
29:57Is there something nice?
29:59Is there something freeing about having been Spider-Man,
30:02the biggest character in the entire world?
30:04And then?
30:05Knowing that everything else won't be that.
30:07Yeah.
30:08I don't know.
30:08I haven't reconsidered it.
30:09I think my desire is to make work that I feel is speaking from my soul every time.
30:21And the rest is kind of none of my business.
30:24I think in my 20s and my 30s, I was very identified with that journey of a kind of ego
30:33career competition.
30:37The work had to be validated by.
30:38External bodies.
30:40And I think I'm hopefully doing a bit of a growing down to shedding that.
30:48I mean, you can't live like that.
30:50I can't live like that.
30:51I don't want to live like that.
30:52It's no life for me.
30:55I want to live for the work and I want to live for the love of the work.
31:00Is that part of my life?
31:01And so there is something freeing about it, I suppose.
31:04And I'm really, really glad I had the experience because it was like the ultimate version of fame and visibility.
31:11And to taste that and to know what that is felt really healthy in all of its unhealthiness.
31:18Well, now you know.
31:19Now you know.
31:20And now you know that no matter where you go, there you are.
31:24Yeah.
31:25And you better get good with that.
31:26You better get good with you.
31:27You better get good with all the trickier bits because, you know, those bits aren't going anywhere.
31:35Mm-hmm.
31:36And I'm sure that like as a parent, that's when that stuff really starts to show up.
31:43Well, maybe we should talk about this.
31:45Of the many things you have spoken about openly and beautifully, you've talked about longing for children.
31:50You've described like sadness at the idea of not having children.
31:52And then you did this big AI project.
31:54I did not feel better about the future when I read Empire.
31:58Right.
31:58How are you feeling about the future and fatherhood right now?
32:01I think I'm the same as everyone else who's even remotely cognizant of where we are and where we're heading.
32:08And I look at my friends who do have kids and the beauty of it, obviously, but also the struggle
32:13of it.
32:15And the kind of the inescapable agony of young people's longing to belong to the screen rather than longing to
32:23belong to the real world.
32:25Yeah.
32:25So I, I feel really, it gives me pause for sure, like any, like any person, I suppose.
32:33That being said, there is that kind of biological imperative and there is that just kind of instinct.
32:37And there's an image that you, you know, you, you, you, you live with for so long.
32:41Or I have any way of the concept of, of, of being a dad and going on that adventure.
32:48And I, I, I, it's mysterious to me.
32:50I think you should do it.
32:52You think?
32:53Yeah.
32:53Why?
32:54It's the best.
32:55Yeah.
32:56And they constantly remind you about what's great about humanity.
33:01Yeah.
33:01I know that all of that, that all tech CEO people, they, they're very, very anti technology in the house.
33:09Like across the board.
33:11I know.
33:11I mean, come on guys.
33:13Come on.
33:13I know.
33:14That's really dark.
33:15That just is objectively dark.
33:17I agree.
33:18Cause they know what it does.
33:19It's dark.
33:20Okay.
33:20I'm going to ask you a couple of dumb ones.
33:22Please.
33:22I have read you tell reporters many, many times that you do not talk about your personal
33:26life.
33:26You've already said it to me today.
33:27So I'm going to ask this question.
33:30Oh God.
33:30Um, I've, I really enjoyed this so far.
33:33Okay.
33:34Just so you know.
33:35I gotta do, you know, I have a, that won't work on me.
33:39I have a job to do.
33:40Like, I really like you.
33:41Shut up.
33:41Um, I, okay.
33:43How was it working with your co-star Monica Barbaro?
33:49You're messed up, dude.
33:50That's a, that's a, this is a professional question.
33:52It's a leading question.
33:53I, um, honestly, I can answer that really simply and really honestly.
33:58Um, she's a remarkable actor.
34:01I felt this way since I first saw her, I think in Top Gun.
34:07And, and then I, and then seeing her in complete unknown.
34:12She's a remarkable collaborator.
34:16She's, um, very rigorous with her work in the same way that I like to be.
34:21She's one of the actors that I would love to work with again and again and again.
34:24But I will say not to undermine that.
34:28I would say that about everyone in this film, genuinely.
34:30Like it's a really incredible ensemble of actors.
34:33You have talked a lot lately about how you think AI in particular,
34:38but maybe social media too, technology more broadly has been corrosive to humanity.
34:43So I'm curious, like where, when are you feeling like culture is soulless?
34:48And when are you feeling hopeful, like culture is soulful?
34:52Yeah. I mean, it's the most obvious cliche stuff.
34:55I went to an Ezra Collective gig in, at the Roundhouse in London.
34:59And for people who don't know, Ezra Collective are a British kind of conglomerate of a mate.
35:03So you have a little wasp of like, um, you seem unfazed of like amazing musicians.
35:10And it's kind of in the realm of Afro beat jazz, fellow cootie inspired.
35:16And that night was a night where you go, ah, life and like humans and art and bodies and sweat
35:26and yeah, creativity.
35:29Um, I was in Devon recently with my nephews and we were surfing and swimming and playing American football on
35:34the beach.
35:35Fun.
35:35Yeah. And eating fish and chips. And I have, uh, one of my nephews is there. I love my nephew
35:41so much, but like, he's very funny when we're out and about.
35:47They're so wise. They're so hip to what's happening. And they're so, they so don't give a shit about any,
35:53any bullshit surrounding their uncle.
35:55So when someone's like staring or coming over to kind of talk to me, my, one of my nephews would
36:00be like, move away quickly, move away quickly.
36:03And he's, he's like 12. He's just like, he's got your six.
36:06Oh dude. He's legit. He's, and I have his six too. We, we have each other's sixes.
36:10Cool. Um, so like, you know, I, we, we, we had a screening in London of this other film I
36:16did with Paul Greengrass called The Uprising.
36:17Which I'm really proud of and I really love and I love Paul and we had a family and friends
36:22screening at, um, at a screening room in London.
36:25And it was, it's that it's moments like that when a bunch of friends and family come up and no
36:31matter, I don't care like how they feel about the film, but the fact that they want to support and
36:35be there and, and that I can be vulnerable with them after the screening and they can be vulnerable with
36:40me and my friends who I hadn't seen in a long time.
36:42And we can catch up and be like, how you doing? I'm struggling a little bit. I am me too.
36:46Okay.
36:46Just like simple as that. Like simple, simple, simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
36:51Andrew, thank you so much for talking today. This is great.
36:53Thank you. Thank you for the questions.
36:56Okay. How are we? Are we okay?
36:59Great.
36:59Okay.