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A discussion on Northern India's severe air pollution crisis highlights challenges from stubble fires, enforcement lapses, and multiple emission sources in Delhi and Punjab.
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00:00I want to widen this. Who is accountable for this national air emergency? Accountability has to be
00:07fixed. Enough of the political blame game that we've seen. Stubble burning or Diwali crackers?
00:12What's the primary cause of this pollution crisis? Has the government failed to provide effective
00:17solutions? Can society escape blame for not doing enough? Those are some of the questions I want to
00:22raise. I want to widen this debate that we've set up. You can see those questions on your screen.
00:29Joining me now is Anmol Panwar. He's Aamadmi Party spokesperson. Remember, the ARP is in power
00:34in Punjab, where we saw this spike in scumble fires. Dr. Anil Kumar Gupta, chief spokesperson of Delhi BJP.
00:41He's also a board member of the CPCB. That's the pollution control board. Zareen Osho is director
00:48India program, Institute for Governance and Sustainable Development. And she's currently
00:53in Turkey for COP. And Hiren Jetwa, senior research scientist at NASA, he's going to tell us what
01:00the satellite images are showing. I want my two experts just hold on for a minute because I want
01:05to ask the politician the accountability question at the end. Anmol Panwar, Aamadmi Party spokesperson,
01:13I heard your minister in Punjab saying there are no stubble fires. Please look at the TV screen that I'm
01:19going to put before you. There were more than 1200 stubble fires just on one day yesterday in Punjab.
01:25In districts like Tarantaran were worst affected. Are you telling me seriously that your minister is
01:31going to tell the country that there are no stubble fires in Punjab? He needs an eye checkup for at
01:37the
01:37very outset, sir. Unacceptable. Why deny the problem? Rajdeep ji, what is unacceptable is that a BJP government
01:51at the center for last 12 years having governments in more than… Am I audible, Rajdeep ji?
01:59Am I audible? Yes, yes, please go ahead.
02:05Rajdeep ji, what is unacceptable is… What… Yes, what is unacceptable is that a government at the
02:13center for last 12 years having government in more than 22 states and who said in their 2025
02:19Delhi elections manifesto that they'll not blame any government and they'll not make any excuses
02:24as far as pollution is concerned. Today, they are blaming farmers. Today, they are blaming Punjab.
02:29Today, they are blaming stubble burning. When their own central government agency, CPCB,
02:34when their own central government agency, CAQM and IARI, Institute of Agricultural Research,
02:40very categorically said, and even their own minister at the floor of the parliament house said
02:45that stubble burning contributes only 4%. Having said that, you know very well that there's 93% reduction in
02:54stubble burning incidents in Punjab from 80,000 in 2021 to less than 5,000 in 2026.
03:01Why did they spike yesterday? Then why did they spike yesterday Mr… But still they are blaming Punjab.
03:04You know, sir, they spiked yesterday. The Delhi government is… No, no, sir, you cannot escape. You cannot
03:09tell… They may have… There were signs that they were declining in the first few weeks,
03:14but there are those who are saying that the farmers were also burning them at a time when satellite images
03:19could not… Could not catch them. More importantly, yesterday itself, there are more than 1200 recorded
03:26instances in one day. How can you escape responsibility?
03:32Rajdeep ji, Raj… Rajdeep ji, this double-engine government at the centre filed an
03:41statement of it before the Honourable Supreme Court very categorically stating that 96% of the sources of
03:46pollution in Delhi are from dust, vehicles and industry. And the Honourable Supreme Court day
03:54before yesterday wrapped the central government. This right to breathe, this right to clean environment,
04:00pollution-free environment, it's a constitutional right. It's not a privilege. And this incompetent
04:07BJP government is responsible for turning Delhi into a guest chamber. AQI levels are in severe
04:13category. Sir, I ask you about Punjab, you tell me about Delhi. This is the problem.
04:16Yet, instead of… I ask you about Punjab, you tell me about Delhi. No, Rajdeep ji,
04:21that is not the way to answer… No, no, Mr. Panwar, Mr. Panwar, today I am sick and tired of
04:28this
04:28political blame game. Ya toh accept that you all have failed in governance. I mean, there should be that
04:34minimum. But I will take your point to the Delhi chief spokesperson of the Delhi BJP, because Dr.
04:40Anil Kumar Gupta, look at the shocker in Delhi. You were supposed to enforce a Supreme Court order
04:47on crackers. Why did you not do it? Instead, your local legislators are encouraging people to burst
04:53crackers. I mean, what kind of governance are you offering, Dr. Gupta? When Aam Aatmi Party was in
04:59power, you would blame them. You even have shut down monitoring stations when the number was reaching
05:05thousand. Our reporters saw monitoring stations shut down at midnight so that you don't reveal the data
05:10to the public. What kind of governance, Dr. Gupta, are you offering in Delhi?
05:18Should I speak now, sir?
05:22Should I speak now, sir?
05:24Yeah, please, Dr. Gupta.
05:26Mr. Rajdeep, should I speak now?
05:27Please, please.
05:29Yeah.
05:31Please, please speak.
05:32Allow me few minutes to reply each and every point.
05:35Yeah. Sir, I am speaking. Am I audible to you? Just confirm.
05:41Am I audible to you? Just confirm.
05:43Sir, sir, you are completely audible.
05:47Hello, am I?
05:47Yes, I am. You are audible, sir.
05:49Sir, just reply, sir. I am sitting in a remote area.
05:52See, Delhi has the largest number of monitoring stations in the country, 59. Under the Kejriwal
06:00government, there were 39. We increased to 59. Shutting down of 1 or 2 or 10 doesn't make any
06:09difference in the average air quality index. The air quality monitoring stations are monitored all
06:15over the country by the Centre Pollution Control Board. And the average of main pollutant is taken as the
06:21average air quality index. And which is a major pollutant yesterday and today, it is particular matter 2.5.
06:28Now, now give me the, now I give you the reason of why this spike has happened.
06:34The Centre government has given 79 crore last year to Punjab government under national clean air program.
06:42170 crore for environmental plan, 200 total 250 crores for the stable management. And what the Punjab
06:49government did? They are not supplying the machines to the farmers. Why there was a sudden spike on 7th and
06:568th in the stable burning. Now, now I come to the question. What is the reason of particular matter 2
07:03.5?
07:04It is the tailpipe emission. It is the dust. It is, it is the stable burning or parallel burning. And
07:11it is
07:12the weather. From 1st November, we stopped all the non-BS6 vehicles in the city. We have the largest number
07:21of
07:21electrical buses in the Delhi, 5,500. The average ridership, the matter is 80 lakhs. You can imagine
07:28that. And we are, we are going to complete the entire fleet of 8,000 this year, next year of
07:35electric
07:36vehicles. But why, why, why, why this thing happens in the Punjab? In spite of giving all the incentives,
07:42in spite of giving all the machines, why the Punjab government is not helping or the subsidizing
07:48the farmers? Sir, you are, sir. You cannot blame, sir. In fact, in fact, just allow me one more minute.
07:52Sir, you cannot blame Punjab alone. You cannot, this is not. Allow me one minute. Allow me, I will.
07:56No, no, no. Sir, you have to take response, just as, just as our MP party has to take responsibility
08:01for
08:01Punjab. You cannot come on my show and say, some air monitoring machine may not be working. So what?
08:06The moment the numbers were climbing up, suddenly the machines went dark. How can your legislators
08:12openly allow citizens to flout norms by encouraging them to, uh, to burst crackers? The Supreme Court has
08:19said, uh, you are in violation. You are in contempt of the Supreme Court, Dr. Gupta.
08:27Should I speak now? Apart from the chief spokesman of the party. Yes, please.
08:34Environmentalists also. I'm a doctor and I know in and out. I know. So allow me to,
08:38allow me to speak. You allowed Sunita Narayanji for 10 minutes. You're not allowing me to five
08:43minutes only. I know what she did for Delhi. She banned, she shut down all the thermal plants,
08:49still the situation there. We are in the government in Delhi for one and a half years. We've, we got
08:54all
08:55this in legacy of 26 years. And we are doing, I said, what measures we have taken in one and
08:59a half
09:00years. I'm telling you what more measures we need to take that I'm also telling. You know, Delhi has a
09:04population of three crores. Can you control each and every citizen not to burst the crackers? We need
09:10to regulate. We need to, uh, stop the production of non, uh, green crackers. That is three. Supreme
09:16Court has just given the decision. And in three, four days, can you say we can control all the three
09:22cloud population? We have 75 light kitchen in Delhi, which gives the home, uh, pollution. And what to
09:29talk of the Punjab? When I talk of Punjab, you said, you don't talk about the Punjab. Why there is
09:34sudden spike satellite images are showing and this side, this direction is there, but you see the area
09:39of the fire. You are accountable for Delhi. I might be party has to be held accountable for Punjab.
09:44That's all I said. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. No, no, no. I'm, I'm, I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying,
09:49I'm accountable to Delhi. I'm admitting you, but I'm saying what measures I have taken in one and a
09:54half air that you need, that the citizen of the country needs to know. We have banned the, uh, uh,
10:00all other known, uh, BS6 vehicles in Delhi. Then there was a hue and cry. Why there is so much,
10:05uh, uh,
10:06jam in the border areas. Then you say, we have banned the conception for particular matter 10.
10:11We have banned, uh, so many things, you know, there is no conception in Delhi still because the weather,
10:17there is no wind because of the moisture, the particle gets suspended and there is a,
10:21in fact, what was the index yesterday? What did today? Today it is a reduction of 100 points.
10:27So you need all government. Why there is a conspiracy? Why the Punjab government needs to be,
10:31okay, so I have to be probed. I don't say it is a, uh, I don't, I don't say we
10:37are in a good situation.
10:38I mean, Dr. Gupta, one minute, one minute. Yeah. I, I have heard both of you patiently,
10:44sir. I have heard both of you patiently. I want to get some experts in here. Your senior research
10:49scientist at NASA, uh, you know, when I'm looking at these numbers that are there,
10:55some of the worst, most polluted cities, 21 of 71 cities had very poor or worse in terms of air
11:02quality in particularly North India, very poor air. You've been tracking this through satellite imagery.
11:08Is it true that basically the stubble fires in Punjab have been done this year in a manner to
11:15avoid some of the satellite images, either at one 30 AM or one 30 PM, uh, other two times when
11:21you all
11:21measure the satellite, this, this. So therefore there is a dark, a darkness over Punjab and the reality
11:29is slowly sinking in that stubble fires continue unabated. Uh, thanks Rajdeep for calling me,
11:37uh, on this, uh, panel discussion. I heard Sunita Narayan and now, excuse me, and now, uh, uh,
11:44uh, sports, uh, spokesperson and also spokesperson from, from BJP. Uh, so let me start with the, uh,
11:52uh, technicality of this, uh, the stubble burning detection from the satellite. Uh, and this is a
11:59very longstanding, first of all, let me tell you this air pollution over Northern India is a very
12:03longstanding, uh, and multifaceted problem. And, and my part is to look at this stubble burning fires
12:10actually from space. Uh, I still remember in 2016, uh, which is 10 years ago, the Diwali and the peak
12:17burning time, they overlap perfectly each other. And that's what's happening today. I mean, yesterday,
12:23right this year, that, that, that the peak burning time in the Punjab and some part of Haryana too,
12:29and the, the Diwali fireworks. So what we are saying, as you correctly said, the double whammy,
12:35uh, thing right now, uh, going on in the Delhi and other parts in Northern India.
12:40And regarding the satellite detection, uh, let me tell you some uncomfortable truth
12:44that Amadmi Party spokesperson may not agree with me. There is nothing, nothing has changed in terms
12:50of the stubble burning. Since our government took the charge in Punjab in 2022, we have seen a systematic,
12:58uh, shift in the timing of the burning from about 1.30 between, between 1 to 2 pm to now
13:034 and 5 pm.
13:05So since last couple of years, we are seeing this very prominent, uh, pattern in the, in the fires
13:13from the geostationary satellite data. And the, and the satellite data that everyone is using, including myself,
13:19are from, uh, NASA and NOAA polar orbiting satellite, uh, products, which are overpassing around 1.30 pm.
13:27So what, what these government numbers are telling us is a very small, very small fraction, maybe 10% or
13:33less than 10%
13:34of the totality of the, of the, of the, of the fire, uh, fires in Punjab and other parts.
13:40But if you look at the geostationary data, which is giving us imagery at every 15 minutes, every hour,
13:46it clearly shows a, a, a very prominent spike in the fire signal at 4 and 5 and beyond, beyond
13:525 pm.
13:53But there is also one interesting, uh, part, and that's, that's, I think, most important thing that I would
13:58like to say here that the one NASA satellite, which was overpassing at 1.30 pm, uh, prior to 2023,
14:05now that satellite is, is ACWA, basically. It's an ACWA, uh, satellite with a MODIS sensor on it.
14:11It's in the free drifting orbit. They are lowering the, the altitude, uh, altitude of that, uh, satellite
14:16to, uh, preserve the fuel. And because of that, now that satellite is passing over Punjab, over northern
14:21India at around 4 pm. And that enables that satellite to see more and more fires
14:26fires at 1 km resolution. And if we convert those numbers to high-resolution fire empirically,
14:34my numbers tell, including, uh, to my today morning's analysis, including November 9th,
14:39we have seen about 34,000 fires. I'm again repeating, 34,000 fires so far in Punjab and Haryana,
14:45mostly dominated by Punjab, since the, the onset of the burning season on, on October 1st. That's,
14:51that's my, my reference. So there is no decrease in the fires, uh, whatever the number is.
14:56You're saying, you're saying the numbers, you're saying the numbers are much more, you're saying
15:02the numbers are much more and, and actually satellite imagery is not even able to capture
15:06the full extent of what is happening in Punjab. Zerine Osho, you've been listening patiently.
15:12Do you believe that this is the double whammy? That because peak harvest season and Diwali have
15:17coincided, it's created this chaos, uh, uh, it's created this terrible darkness around us,
15:23the smog around us. Or do you believe that we are just seeing this getting worse by the year,
15:30simply because enforcement is just not there?
15:36Hi, Rajdeep. This is the second time you and I are talking about this particular issue.
15:41Last year, we were speaking about, uh, seeding clouds to make sure that there was some sort of
15:47solution to this problem. Another year has passed. This is another season, another winter season.
15:51And here we are talking about the same thing. I think the point that you made about it being a
15:56double whammy and then it coming up with, uh, in, in, in conjunction to enforcement is the correct
16:03answer. You know, when you do not have enforcement officers at the pollution control boards across the
16:09states in this particular IDP region, the Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh belts, there is no way
16:15that the government can get away in enforcing those targets, even though whatever the targets may be.
16:22But if there's no enforcement, be it the Supreme Court, be it the government, be it the state
16:26pollution control board, be it the CAQM, we, it's all paper trail. As Dr. Sunita Narayan pointed out,
16:33we can come in different meetings and committees, set different targets, but those targets cannot be
16:38attained till there is some level of enforcement. You know, the speakers before me also said,
16:44just as I did, uh, I'm, I'm in Turkey right now where the COP 31 meetings are occurring.
16:49And I can tell you just before I took my flight here to Antalya, all night there was bursting of
16:55firecrackers. And this is despite the Supreme Court ruling. And the same was true for last year.
17:00This year, I think the, the, the correlation and the juxtaposition of Punjab fires, and finally,
17:08you know, mainstreaming of the news that Punjab farmers know exactly when the satellites are,
17:14satellites are over their head has mainstreamed this year, but this news is not new. We were aware
17:20of this news last year as well. So there's no change in the last year and this year, no matter
17:26which government be in power. And I think to some extent, there needs to be some recognition of the
17:33fact that if you're going to try and control air over the state of Delhi, that's not something that
17:40atmosphere and air knows as such. The atmosphere does not know state boundaries. So no matter how
17:47many restrictions you put on the state of Delhi, be it, be it vehicular, be it pollution control
17:52measures, something needs to happen in Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Punjab as well, because winds go from
17:58west to east. So to say that we are here and, you know, this is a double whammy and, you
18:04know,
18:04so and so excuse has come up. Absolutely not. We were here last year as well. And I'm pretty sure
18:09we're going to be here next year as well.
18:15As you said, there are several stakeholders here. What do they need to do? Sit across a table and come
18:21up with an action plan? How do you enforce it? You see, I hear government bureaucrats saying it's easy
18:26for you to sit in a studio. How do you enforce it on the ground? Delhi is a city of
18:30more than 25
18:31million people, the NCR region. How do I enforce that people don't burst crackers? Punjab farmers have
18:37a very small window for their harvesting. They are going to go ahead with stubble burning. How do you
18:42actually enforce? Is there an example that can be followed to get all these chief ministers on one
18:48table and get it done? Absolutely. And first and foremost, before I answer that question, I also want to
18:53highlight that I live across the Horskas police station in Delhi. And to talk about, you know, we have 25
19:00million people or 33 million people. Yes, of course, we do have a large population. But if the fire
19:07bursting or the cracker bursting happens right across the police station, I think there is a problem,
19:11which is fundamental to our enforcement abilities and talks to it. So there is no question about,
19:17oh, you know, we are short on capacity. Absolutely. I think the first thing we need to do is to
19:22make sure
19:23to hold accountable the state pollution control boards to fill in the positions of enforcement officers.
19:29I have worked across the IGP region. And I can tell you that the state capacity is extremely
19:36understaffed. We do not have enough officers to regulate the district of Gurugram, let alone the
19:43state of Haryana, for instance. Right? So the first things first, why is it that the state pollution
19:49control boards cannot hire enough capacity to be able to enforce the targets that the respective
19:55state governments have put in place? That is question number one. And for that,
19:58you can hold a state pollution control board responsible directly. Now, having said that,
20:03coming to the point that you are making about how do we get the chief ministers to sit together,
20:07this has been done. And this has been done under the directions of the Honorable Supreme Court several
20:13times. But the problem is, it has never been elevated to the position of a chief minister.
20:18The Supreme Court on multiple occasions has gotten hold of environment ministers, gotten hold of state
20:24pollution control boards. But it has never been elevated to a level, a political level,
20:29where a chief minister becomes responsible or could be held responsible for the condition.
20:35First things first, I think, A, the need for the Honorable Supreme Court to come in. I do see that
20:42the
20:42spokesperson from ARP is raising their hand, but I must, you know, bring to their fore and knowledge.
20:48I am aware of the fact that different chief ministers across the IGP region have made different promises.
20:53None of those have been fulfilled, simply both. So now, in order to get the chief minister to make this
20:59a political issue and get the exact, the right type of momentum and limelight to the issue,
21:05it needs to be elevated to a political stage. That is one. The second, we do have a CAQM. We
21:11do have,
21:11you know, these pollution control boards, so on and so forth. Please answer the question of how many
21:16technical people are employed in these different committees. So you have different NGOs and different
21:23civil society expert members come in as advisors, quote-unquote, not as people who are actually put
21:30in decision-making positions. Those are IS officers and bureaucrats. Now, I may be, I may not know as
21:37much as other people may, but the one thing I can tell you after having sat through multiple of these
21:42meetings and being privy to what happens in these meetings, a lot of the bureaucracy may not be
21:47experts in the area of air pollution. Simply put, if you can get the chief ministers to come together
21:55and say, hey, we have a problem here. The IGP region is the problem. We know the problem. We have
22:01the
22:01solutions. Why is enforcement not happening? And having, I am pretty sure no chief minister in the IGP
22:07region wants to breed 2000 plus AQI. So till the time these questions, these fundamental questions
22:14can be answered of enforcement officers and getting actual experts and giving power to experts to enforce
22:21through those enforcement mechanisms is when we will be able to see change. And no decision can be
22:27enforced in one state jurisdiction. It has to be enforced across states together in the IGP region.
22:34Otherwise, air does not know what is the state of Delhi or the state of Punjab.
22:42I take your point. I've listened to you patiently. I've listened to all my guests patiently.
22:48As I said, my biggest fear is that we'll all be back tomorrow, same time, same time of the year,
22:55discussing the same issues. This is a national air emergency. I appreciate my guests joining.