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Are Malaysians being given a meaningful say in shaping the policies that govern our lives? Gabungan Bertindak Malaysia believes that a Manifesto Rakyat will give us that opportunity, by gathering citizens’ policy priorities and scrutinising the government’s progress on its reform commitments. But can public demands actually translate into political action? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Lim Chee Han, Programme Coordinator for Manifesto Rakyat and an exco member of Gabungan Bertindak Malaysia, and Azura Nasron, Executive Director of SUARAM.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:18the day.
00:19Are Malaysians being given a meaningful say in shaping the policies that govern our lives?
00:25Well, Gabungan Bertindak Malaysia believes that a manifesto rakyat will give us that opportunity.
00:31It's an effort to gather citizens' policy priorities as well as to assess the government's progress on its reform promises.
00:40But can public demands actually translate into political action?
00:46So that's what we want to discuss today and joining me on the show to discuss this further,
00:50I have Dr Lim Cheehan who is Program Coordinator for Manifesto Rakyat.
00:56He's also an Executive Committee Member for Gabungan Bertindak Malaysia.
01:02And I also have Azra Nasron who is Executive Director for Suwaram.
01:06Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me, both of you today.
01:09Lovely in your batik attire.
01:11Cheehan, can I begin with you?
01:13Sure.
01:14This is the second edition of Manifesto Rakyat.
01:16So it's Manifesto Rakyat 2.0.
01:18Can we talk about Manifesto Rakyat 1.0?
01:21That was essentially, I thought, really an interesting proposition.
01:25What was it? 2022, wasn't it?
01:27And it was really an experiment in bottom-up policymaking.
01:32So let's talk a bit about that.
01:34What did you achieve with Manifesto Rakyat 1.0?
01:37And what did you learn from that exercise?
01:40All right. Thanks for having me here.
01:42Yeah. For the 1.0 edition, it was started actually in 2021, one year before the general election.
01:52So we spent about three months collecting public inputs, feedback for policy proposals.
01:58We have received about 300 submissions and across 27 policy areas.
02:05How many? 37?
02:0727.
02:08That's a huge range.
02:10Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:11So mostly, most submissions we have were for education, women, child, human rights.
02:18Yeah, these are the major policy areas that we received.
02:20And after that, we formed a team to see the political parties.
02:27We were very well received by all major party coalitions.
02:32And in the end, we found out in their manifesto when they launched, we have many similarities.
02:37For example, for our top 10 policy demands, we found that 70% we can found the policy in the
02:45Pakatan Harapan
02:46and 60% in the Pakatan National.
02:49So we found that it's very significant for us, for our advocacy.
02:55And yeah, so what happened is after they took the government, whether this policy has been implemented is another story.
03:05But at the time of our advocacy, we found that they do actually want to listen and adopted the people's
03:13policies.
03:14Okay, so do you think that political parties are actually watching what is written in the Manifesto Raya
03:22and absorbing it into their own political manifestos?
03:27Surely, actually, we were the first manifesto in town.
03:31It's about 200 pages of the document and many, many great ideas.
03:36So we were received very warmly and they do study our proposals and give their feedback.
03:42In fact, yeah, of course, Manifesto Raya 1.0 was not perfect because there are areas that we didn't cover.
03:48For example, security, national security, and elderly care, which certain parties really want to see very in-depth policies.
04:01We do have general like health care, welfare, protection.
04:06Alright, okay. Azura, let's bring you into this conversation.
04:09Do you think we need a Manifesto Raya?
04:11How do you view the first endeavor, Manifesto Raya 1.0?
04:17And do you think that Malaysia actually needs one?
04:20Yeah, I think first of all, before I start, maybe I want to say congratulations for doing this hard work.
04:26As you mentioned, for the previous one, 1.0, it takes one year to do it.
04:31And I believe for the second time, it takes longer, right?
04:34Even Suara most approached and we said no because we think that it's a lot of work, right?
04:41And we had to say no for this time, but maybe for next time.
04:44But we support in other ways.
04:48Because I think when I heard about 300 submissions, I'm like, okay.
04:51You can still submit your progress.
04:53I can submit, yeah.
04:54I think it's very, very a lot of hard work, yeah.
04:57And for me, I think it's how we look at elections itself, right?
05:02Cara kita melihat Pilihan Raya.
05:04Saya fikir Pilihan Raya ni bukan ahli politik keluarkan apa mereka nak, apa mereka mahu dan kita kena pilih.
05:14It's not something that kita pergi kedai, kita pilih mana kita nak, right?
05:17It's something yang kita bagi mereka kuasa, dipinjamkan kuasa selama 5 tahun untuk jalankan apa yang kita nak.
05:24Apakah mandat rakyat kepada mereka.
05:26So having this manifesto is, I say we are giving you, you have to do this, right?
05:31Dan sebenarnya, if you look at history, sejarahnya, sebenarnya rakyat menentukan agenda politik ni bukan benda baru.
05:40Contohnya, pada tahun 1969, mahasiswa telah mengeluarkan manifesto sendiri dan mereka buat rapat umum.
05:48Mereka sendiri yang turun ke bawah, jumpa rakyat, beritahu yang politicians have to listen to us, right?
05:54It's not something yang diorang suka hati.
05:57Okay, but the reality of it is that sometimes after election, so manifesto is wonderful on paper.
06:04Kita baca, we're so happy with what's in it.
06:07But the reality is, after elections is when it really matters.
06:11So Azra, in your experience being in advocacy, being in activism,
06:17what typically happens to tundutan rakyat selepas pilihan rakyat?
06:22Okay, okay, be tricky lah. So I'm talking based on my experience.
06:28Your own experience, yes, okay.
06:29Saya rasa yang paling saya geram, kan, is kita disuruh bersabar.
06:34We are asked to be patient a lot of times, kan.
06:37If the government intends to do something, diorang boleh bentang hari ni, nanti dah luluskan.
06:43But if it's from the people, kena ada jawatankuasa, kena ada penelitian, kena ada sesi libat urus.
06:49And the thing is, we are not part of the process.
06:52We are, they jumpa kita as tokenistic approach for checklist.
06:58Tapi when it comes to the process untuk membuat keputusan, tidak diberikan jawapan.
07:03Dan saya fikir, bila kita lihat AUKU contohnya, kan, it's been 55 years, kan, perjuangan AUKU ni.
07:11Setiap generasi sebenarnya, saya sendiri, pertama kali datang Awani ni adalah untuk berbicara tentang AUKU.
07:17That was many years ago.
07:18That was many years ago, kan, ya.
07:21Ataupun IPCMC contohnya, kan, satu badan untuk melihat polis.
07:25Dikeluarkan cadangan itu pada 2005.
07:28Tapi akhirnya sehingga kini, kita masih belum dapat sepenuhnya.
07:31Jadi saya fikir memang, itulah cabarannya, saya fikir.
07:35On how do we push from manifesto to actually a bigger change.
07:40Yes, okay. So, Chihan, this is what I want to ask you.
07:43The pathway from demands to political action to actual policy, right?
07:51You've had an experience with Manifesto Rakyat 1.0.
07:54What are you changing with Manifesto Rakyat 2.0 to, not just in collecting ideas from the public,
08:01but in the policy pathway implementation after elections?
08:05Yeah. What we found that, what are the problems of, they did present with many good policies in their manifesto,
08:15but they give excuses, like now they are in the coalition government,
08:20they're partnering with other political parties, may have some variation in their manifesto, promises,
08:27so they couldn't say they can honour, deliver the promise on their own.
08:33But we think that it's not an excuse because we found that many similarities between those governing political parties.
08:41So, what we think we lack of is some kind of watchdog from the civil society, from NGOs and also
08:48the people.
08:49People are very frustrated because there are many good promises, policies written in their manifesto,
08:56but they're not talking about it even after they beat the government.
09:02So, what we want to continue is to build the bridges between the people and political parties
09:07to ensure when they are in parliament or in the government and also in the parliament,
09:14they can have the common agenda to put for certain reform policies that all parties agree.
09:20To give you an example, for the, you know, the overseas mother, past the citizenship, the issue,
09:26it was actually one of the highlight, major success from Manifesto 1.0,
09:31when we have family frontiers among our advocacy group.
09:35We did put this agenda into every major political party's manifesto
09:42and they took it seriously and actually agreed with it.
09:46So, in the end, you can see what happened in the parliament is that
09:48for the constitution amendments on the particular clauses, all parties agree.
09:55So, you can see, you can have cross-party support for certain policies.
09:59Yeah, it's bipartisan, everyone is supporting.
10:02I do, I think we need to get something, I guess, explicitly said.
10:07Do both of you consider a manifesto as a promise?
10:13Do you think that whatever is written in a manifesto
10:16is actually a promise made by politicians in return for your vote?
10:22Because if I recall correctly, I think it was Tunduk Mahathir
10:26who famously said the manifesto is not a Bible, right?
10:30It's not a holy book there.
10:32You're not supposed to follow it religiously, it's just a guide.
10:36What do both of you think about that?
10:37Azura, can I come to you?
10:40Supposedly, it's a promise.
10:42You think, you think, you think that a manifesto is actually a promise made by politicians
10:47to the voters?
10:48Yeah, betul.
10:48Tak boleh guna alasan macam itulah.
10:51Sebab itulah, kita pilih.
10:54Yeah, definitely it's a promise.
10:56And so, you can see why these days when we have this 2.0,
11:02we face a lot of obstacles because people don't trust the politicians anymore
11:06because what they promised in the election, they never take it seriously.
11:10They don't even want to try to implement or even have a very watered down,
11:15for example, the Freedom of Information Act,
11:18the table in the parliament was very watered down and very restrictive.
11:22So, people actually lose trust when you don't want to keep your promises.
11:28So, I think this is a very important issue
11:32because we are in a democratic society, a country.
11:36So, just now, Cheyeng, you mentioned that what we actually need
11:40is almost like a watchdog, right?
11:42How do we keep political parties and the people in government
11:47accountable to the promises they've made in the manifesto?
11:50And I wonder whether that is the role of civil society.
11:54Azura, you've been an activist for many years now,
11:57been very vocal through your work in Suwaram.
11:59Maybe you can talk to me a little bit about it.
12:01Based on your experience, your pengalaman pushing through reform,
12:05pushing through things that have actually changed.
12:08What actually forces a government to move?
12:13Apa yang really menggerakkan government so that they actually take action
12:16and listen to what civil society is saying?
12:19Yeah.
12:21Sebenarnya, bila kita tengok, bila government bagi alasan,
12:24contohnya seperti yang dikutadakan tadi, Dr. M bagi alasan manifesto itu bukan Bible,
12:29I think it doesn't stop us.
12:31I think what we...
12:33Apa kerja kita is for public pleasure.
12:36It's to bring the grassroots voices.
12:38And especially kekuatan NGO adalah kita tak datang dengan tangan kosong.
12:42Kita selalu datang dengan cases, the real cases on the ground,
12:46bukti data, research daripada international, best practices around regional dan sebagainya.
12:54Jadi, this data yang kita ada is yang menjadi kekuatan kita untuk support.
13:03To push for public pleasure.
13:04Tapi, dalam masa yang sama, saya juga memikirkan NGO tidak boleh berdiri sendirian.
13:10We cannot do it alone.
13:11We also need other institution to help.
13:13Contohnya, Suhakam.
13:15Contohnya, untuk kes Suaram, kita dah berbicara tentang prison reform ini for many years.
13:21Isu penyiksaan dalam tahanan.
13:23Tapi, bila Suhakam buat public inquiry, dia mengeluarkan report.
13:26They're typing prison.
13:27They're typing prison, it gives another perspective.
13:31Of course, kita boleh support a mobilized family, kita support lawyer untuk kes kematian.
13:37Tapi, bila Suhakam keluarkan report, especially bila Chairman keluarkan kenyataan,
13:42pihak penjara tidak bertanggungjawab dan sebagainya, it changes.
13:46Dan kita juga boleh gunakan report itu untuk kita punya, what will we do evocacy.
13:52Dan saya juga mengharapkan in the future of other institutions.
13:56Contohnya, if EAIC, IPCC, dan even the police institution itself,
14:00kalaulah mereka actually work with us, we can help to push for better policies.
14:05So, institutions penting, I agree with you.
14:07Memang penting to have this kind of concerted collaboration with the institutions, right?
14:12But let's talk about the people in government.
14:14Because many of the people in government now were once activists themselves,
14:18were reformists themselves.
14:19They speak the language of reform, they speak the language of civil liberties and democratic strength and change.
14:28Does that help?
14:30Does that change the way you engage with the people in power?
14:34Or are the former activists and reformists, once they enter government, does that, do they change?
14:41What do you think, Jihan?
14:42Of course, after they have changed their position, I think their mentality, their mindset has been changed.
14:47So, they want to keep to the power, and they want to ensure that all the allied forces are with
14:56them.
14:56But I think, I agree with Azura, that we still need to keep on, be the pressure group.
15:03Keep the pressure and make them honour the promises.
15:08For example, I think another institution we need to mention is parliament.
15:11Because parliament, we have a wakil rakyat there.
15:14And I think the parliamentary select committees are a very good way for us to bring the issues up.
15:21Because it can have a bipartisan discussion, and it can generate more discussion in the parliament.
15:26Because parliament is not supposed to just pass the law, but need to have the policy debate.
15:31One thing manifesto rakyat wants to create in Malaysia is to have people have serious discussion,
15:38rational discussion about policy.
15:40Because a lot of times in the general election, you see people just have a rhetoric of politics,
15:45just badmouthing each other.
15:46There's nothing to do with real policy, real solution to the people.
15:49Absolutely. It's not even policy driven or issue driven.
15:52It's sometimes the most, you know, racialized, sensationalized items.
15:57Azura, can I ask that question to you?
16:00Having these activists and reformists now in Putrajai in government,
16:06does that mengubah cara activists engage dengan kerajaan hari ini?
16:12Sebenarnya tak. Kerja kita memang setiasa ketuk pintu.
16:17No matter who's in government.
16:18The differences is either dia buka pintu ke tak.
16:22So I can't deny that right now, mungkin allies lebih.
16:25You know, they opening doors, kita boleh bawa family masuk.
16:28Sebab tu dulu mungkin lebih banyak demonstrasi.
16:30Sebab kerja kita memang kejalanan kan.
16:33Baru dia nak buka pintu.
16:34Sekarang tak perlu pun dia dah buka kan.
16:35Dia dah panggil kita untuk selibat urus.
16:38But I feel like just because they speak the same language,
16:42just because they bagi kita duduk satu meja,
16:44that doesn't mean yang kerja kita ubah.
16:46Sebab the real changes is the policy and also budaya, the culture.
16:53Because right now, and the culture, I don't think it comes from the politics.
16:58I wouldn't put the changes of culture di atas tangan politicians.
17:03For me, the changes of culture is dekat tangan rakyat lah.
17:06Sama ada kita berani ke tak.
17:08Sebab just because Akta Hasutan masih ada contohnya kan.
17:10CMA masih ada.
17:12Tapi kalau kita tengok sekarang, rakyat dah makin berani bersuara.
17:15That is the most important thing for CSOs.
17:18Bagi kita, for me especially kan,
17:22me pushing towards government for policy changes is just to prove their failure.
17:26Because they will not do it lah.
17:28Even if they do it, they're going to water down.
17:31Water down Berkshire, water down Berkshire kan.
17:33So you push for the very most reform that we can get
17:37and then because you know that they will negotiate.
17:40They will negotiate lah.
17:42Faham, I understand.
17:43Cheehan, talk to me about where we stand at with Manifesto Rakyat 2.0.
17:48So I understand that you've extended the deadline.
17:52It was 300 submissions previously.
17:54Where are we at now?
17:55Talk to me about how we get more people involved.
17:58When we started to have the first press conference
18:01to go to call for proposals,
18:03it was on 11th of February.
18:06So for about six months,
18:08we received about 10% only of the proposals
18:12compared to the last time.
18:14And now we have want to extend to 17th of September.
18:19So that I hope that being Malaysian,
18:21we know that some organization and individuals
18:23would do the last minute rushing.
18:25I hope by the time we can have more proposals
18:27because it's very fundamental.
18:29The voices has to come from the people
18:30and the solutions have to come from the people
18:33because they know the issues on the ground.
18:35And oftentimes when we go see the political parties,
18:37they actually are not aware of those issues
18:40and another way to address all those concerns.
18:44Oh.
18:45So can I ask you,
18:47is this concerning to you, Cheehan,
18:49that do you worry that Malaysians are becoming less engaged
18:54or almost disenfranchised or disengaged,
18:56they worry that no matter what they say,
18:59speaking up doesn't really change anything.
19:01Is that a concern?
19:03I think it's the public trust deficit
19:05when this government brings so much hope
19:07coming to the power
19:08with the reformist stance and promises,
19:13but they deliver very few, very little.
19:16So when we were calling for proposals,
19:21people have doubts saying that,
19:22you know, manifesto is not a Bible,
19:25it's not a Bible,
19:26so no one actually pay attention
19:27and no one actually fulfill.
19:29So they don't trust.
19:30So I can see that in our manifesto rakyat,
19:32the comment section,
19:33many negative comments,
19:35it's because of that.
19:36They don't trust the process anymore,
19:38but I want to tell them it's not true.
19:40Actually, we can build a very good coalition together
19:44to demand, to pressure the government
19:46because we did have the success in the advocacy.
19:49They did put the policy in their manifesto,
19:53but what we lack is to,
19:54when they are in the position of power,
19:57to execute, to fulfill the promises.
20:01Azra, ada tak yang you rasa that
20:03rakyat Malaysia sekarang dah rasa
20:05maybe more cynical,
20:06maybe rasa that even though bersuara
20:08actually tak berubah pun apa-apa?
20:10Yeah.
20:12I mean, just to answer,
20:13just to...
20:14give a bit of feedback on your point just now.
20:16I rasa there are so many issues right now.
20:21Dari awal tahun kan,
20:22kita tengok the right-wing movements
20:24on illegal temples,
20:25on how it spread,
20:27you know, racism,
20:28and then right now we're in India,
20:30the xenophobia.
20:31I think everyone in civil society,
20:33especially it's just like,
20:35we have to be fire fighting everywhere.
20:38And the resources are getting down.
20:39People, manpower also getting down.
20:43The circle is getting smaller right now, right?
20:45So,
20:46and I believe that when it comes to manifesto
20:48is one of the process.
20:50And right now, people are just looking for an answer,
20:52which we know that we can't.
20:53You know,
20:55we know that if we do this manifesto,
20:56we have to do other things.
20:57So,
20:58people are just
21:00memilih
21:01nak letak resources dekat mana
21:02buat masa ni.
21:03So,
21:03if there's group yang buat,
21:04I feel like we have to support lah kan.
21:06We don't have to like,
21:07macam,
21:07oh,
21:08benda ni tak membantu.
21:09Of course,
21:09dia tak akan membantu
21:10if we are not doing the other things,
21:11right?
21:12But,
21:13daripada orang ramai,
21:14daripada segi orang ramai,
21:15saya rasa,
21:15sebenarnya,
21:16orang sebenarnya dah ke depan,
21:18what comes,
21:19especially isu polis contohnya kan.
21:21I can see differences.
21:2310 years ago,
21:24or 5 years ago even kan,
21:25evoke before pandemic kan,
21:27orang takut nak cakap
21:28pasal kesalahan isu polis.
21:29But right now,
21:30people are recording themselves.
21:32You don't need suaram
21:33to actually push for IPCC lah.
21:35People are recording people.
21:36Right?
21:37So,
21:37kenapa suaram nak,
21:38oh,
21:38push-push polisi.
21:39Why don't we just educate people
21:41of their rights?
21:41They do it themselves.
21:43So,
21:43this is a different perspective
21:44on how do we actually
21:46approach people itself lah.
21:47That's fantastic.
21:48I'm encouraged to hear
21:49that I think
21:50that this is all part
21:52of being an active citizen.
21:53Right?
21:53We're building the country
21:54that we want,
21:56that vision
21:56that Malaysians want
21:57for ourselves.
21:58So,
21:59this is the season
22:00to be talking Merdeka,
22:02Malaysia Day.
22:03When I look at both of you,
22:05I appreciate the work
22:07that you do in civil society.
22:08But I do think that
22:09as a citizen,
22:10as an average,
22:10ordinary Malaysian,
22:11we all have a part
22:13to play
22:13because being an active citizen
22:15isn't just about
22:16voting every few years,
22:17right?
22:18Can I ask both of you
22:19in the last few minutes
22:20that we have left,
22:21what does that mean?
22:23To be an active citizen
22:25and to participate
22:26in the building
22:27of the Malaysia
22:29that we want.
22:30Jihan,
22:30can I begin with you first?
22:32Yeah.
22:32I think active citizen
22:34is definitely
22:37the way to go
22:38because I think
22:39that
22:40right guys shouldn't
22:42be thinking
22:42that they cannot
22:43change policy,
22:44that they don't have
22:45the power
22:45because
22:46one right idea
22:48in their mind
22:49could also be shared
22:50by many.
22:51If they all
22:51voice out
22:52and put on the demand,
22:54the effect
22:55could be enormous.
22:56I think
22:56the politicians
22:58have to listen
22:58if they really
22:59want the votes
23:00because I think
23:01it's not just
23:01about the votes,
23:02I think it's about
23:03articulation of ideas,
23:04what you want,
23:05what you need,
23:07then this
23:08democratic process
23:09then will be
23:09related to people,
23:10will be most meaningful
23:11to serve the people.
23:12So I hope
23:13the manifesto rakyat
23:14can give opportunity
23:15for people
23:15to submit your voices
23:16because we want that
23:18and we credit back
23:19to you
23:19because
23:20this manifesto
23:21is really built
23:22by people
23:22so we credit
23:23to every proposer
23:25unlike other
23:26political manifestos,
23:27some politicians,
23:28some MPs
23:28actually drafted
23:29the whole thing.
23:30We are different
23:30so we really appreciate
23:32if you can,
23:33we know
23:33it's very diverse
23:34in a democratic society
23:36it could be very noisy
23:37but I think
23:38we have to cherish
23:39the idea
23:39because this is
23:40the true meaning
23:41of democracy.
23:41And how do they do that?
23:42How do they submit
23:43an idea,
23:44a proposal
23:44to manifesto rakyat?
23:45Okay,
23:46in the simple term
23:47you can go to
23:47our website
23:50manifestorakyat.my
23:51you can find out
23:52the ways
23:53to submit your proposal
23:54and do the survey
23:55in four languages
23:56we actually
23:57also provide
23:59for you to
24:00provide feedback
24:01in BM
24:02in Chinese
24:03and also
24:04Bahasa Tamil
24:04so you can find out
24:06the links
24:06in our website
24:07Wonderful,
24:08thank you so much
24:08Azra,
24:09let's end with you
24:10what does it mean
24:10jadi seorang warga negara
24:12yang participating
24:13and active
24:16sebenarnya betul
24:17demokrasi
24:17tidak berlaku
24:18hanya 5 tahun sekali
24:19demokrasi berlaku
24:20setiap hari
24:20and I always think
24:22that it doesn't have
24:22to be big
24:23you don't have to be
24:24a full-time activist
24:25masuk NGO
24:26untuk jadi
24:27seorang penggerak
24:27you can be
24:28an active citizen
24:30by helping your community
24:31sebenarnya
24:32turun ke meeting
24:33bawah blog
24:33contohnya kan
24:34ada ketua kampung
24:36jumpa ketua kampung
24:37you know
24:37we don't
24:38kadang-kadang
24:39mungkin manifesto
24:40national ni besar
24:41cuba ada manifesto
24:42desa mentari
24:44you know
24:44yang you boleh push
24:45dekat you punya ni
24:46kan
24:46kita nak setiap hari
24:47Sabtu
24:48ada pertandingan bola
24:49you know
24:50that kind of
24:50to support
24:51public participation
24:52you know
24:54citizen engagement
24:55kadang-kadang
24:55boleh start
24:56dengan 2-3 orang
24:57it doesn't have
24:58to be big
24:58so that's my point
25:00Azra, thank you so much
25:01and Cheehan
25:01thank you for your time
25:02both of you
25:03I appreciate you
25:04being here
25:04and happy
25:05Merdeka Day
25:06happy Malaysia Day
25:06thank you so much
25:07that's all the time
25:08we have for you
25:09on this episode
25:09of Consider This
25:10I'm Melissa Idris
25:12signing off
25:12for the evening
25:12thank you so much
25:13for watching
25:14and good night
25:14thank you so much
25:16I'm Melissa Idris
25:16I'm Melissa Idris
25:17I'm Melissa Idris
25:19I'm Melissa Idris
25:21I'm Melissa Idris
25:30it's
25:30next time
25:30to see you
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