00:00All right, joining me now is a special guest.
00:03He's been a former Chief Election Commissioner.
00:05Mr. O.P. Rawat is joining me.
00:07Mr. Rawat was Chief Election Commissioner in 2018.
00:10And he fully understands what can happen inside the Election Commission on sensitive decisions like this.
00:17Rawat, sir, thank you for joining us on India Today.
00:20So that is my first question.
00:21Political showdown aside, what is your view of the criticism that has come in for the Election Commission
00:27and the kind of criticism that's come in, especially against Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar.
00:34What is your view, sir, on it?
00:37Go ahead, sir.
00:38And I understand we are setting up some communication line there.
00:41We'll go across to Mr. O.P. Rawat in just a short while.
00:45But here's what happened.
00:46Remember that at this point, questions are being raised directly to Gyanesh Kumar
00:51and against if there is his authority that is being misused.
00:55Now, Election Commission says that there are routine discussions where, if at all, differences are discussed.
01:01Mr. O.P. Rawat is back with us.
01:04Sir, go ahead.
01:05I want to understand first your view about how, as Election Commissioner,
01:10when you take in views on sensitive issues, are there differences?
01:13Does it need a formal dissent?
01:15What do you see to the reports and political showdown targeting the CEC?
01:19The Election Commission can take a decision to do anything only in an Election Commission meeting
01:27where all three commissioners are present and either unanimously or by majority vote.
01:34So if it is recorded like that, that all decisions were taken unanimously or by majority votes,
01:40then the story reported today in newspapers is not really well-founded.
01:45But if it is not, if the court says otherwise, that they raised objections and two of them were raising
01:54objections,
01:55means majority was on the other side, then there is no decision to the effect the CEC wants.
02:01That is what we will have to see.
02:03And only that will decide the matter whether something wrong has happened or not.
02:08Yes. So if, let's say, there is no formal dissent,
02:12but there must have been differences in a meeting or observations that were raised,
02:16does that tantamount to kind of massive differences or misuse of CEC authority?
02:21Is that routine?
02:22Or do you think who signs the order eventually as majority, that matters?
02:27Absolutely no, because the difference of opinion will always be there
02:31and it will be discussed and ironed out.
02:33So minutes are recorded.
02:35When Election Commission meetings, minutes are recorded.
02:38With clear, this thing that it was unanimous decision or it was by majority.
02:43So, whatever is recorded, that will prove what is right and what is wrong.
02:49Sir, you have had your views, I understand, on the SR exercise as well.
02:53It's been long going now.
02:55It has spread from earlier voter issues and role revision.
02:58Now, of course, as we see a whole political debate that it has become.
03:01What is your view, sir, on the SR exercise?
03:04What do you think needs to be done so that the Election Commission
03:06needn't be attacked in a manner that we are witnessing?
03:10Actually, Election Commission should have taken these steps,
03:14starting from Bihar with full preparation.
03:17In fact, in Bihar also they were in a hurry.
03:19They started with a lot of mistakes and they corrected during the process
03:27because the Honourable Supreme Court was also seized on the matter.
03:30So they continued correcting it.
03:32Only then it could conclude.
03:34And then they started for 12 states and UT.
03:37There again, they did not assess the workload on BLOs,
03:42BLOs being teachers.
03:43The session was on and they had to finish the floor for their students.
03:49All those things they did not see and very little time was given.
03:52And when human crime was made, they changed and extended the time limit.
03:58In fact, in case of UP, they extended by six months.
04:01So there have been problems with SIR beginning.
04:05And to cap it all, the best Bengal thing,
04:0993% deleted voter in appellate tribunal have come back as voter.
04:14And poor fellows, they could not vote in the elections.
04:17This is a shame on democracy.
04:20Denying democratic right by wrong process is really a shame on democracy.
04:26Sir, so here's what the Election Commission
04:28and even the ruling party that maintained recently,
04:31that if the ministers can be served in notice,
04:34famous people are being served notice,
04:36that it means it's a fair, unbiased process.
04:39What would you say to that?
04:42I won't say anything on that
04:44because the notices can be given to anyone.
04:46But the issue is democratic right.
04:50You deny voting.
04:52You deleted their names in the held election.
04:54And then through appellate tribunal,
04:56they have come back in the voter list.
04:59What reply do we give to those voters?
05:03Sir, so the issue,
05:04I'm sure you must have also come across this during your tenure,
05:07was of illegal immigrants who were getting these voter ID cards,
05:11especially in border areas,
05:12and were becoming voters.
05:14And that had to be really checked,
05:16given the internal security issues.
05:18What would you say to that when the SIR exercise
05:20is now, of course, across the country over that?
05:24Actually, that issue belongs to Home Ministry,
05:26and Home Ministry should have taken steps.
05:28Election Commission is not for identifying illegal immigrants.
05:32But Election Commission took upon themselves,
05:34through SIR, to do this.
05:36And then they failed to give any list of illegal immigrants.
05:39How many illegal immigrants they removed?
05:43Never give.
05:45So it was really wrong on their part
05:47to indulge in something which was not their domain.
05:52Sir, do you think,
05:53because you were a CEC,
05:54if differences were raised to you also,
05:57by other officers,
05:58do you have the authority to sign an order,
06:01even if other officers are against it?
06:03Is that a protocol that is allowed?
06:06Is that a power that you had as a CEC
06:08that Yanesh Kumar can use today?
06:11Absolutely no.
06:12There was a difference of opinion.
06:14The matter used to be put up on file
06:16so that they bring their opinion on record.
06:19And when all the objections are reconciled,
06:23only then an order is issued.
06:26And CEC doesn't issue an order.
06:28It is issued by a Deputy Election Commissioner
06:29or Principal Secretary concerned.
06:31It is his duty to check
06:33that it is a unanimous decision
06:35or by a majority.
06:37Sir, how do you see the institution
06:40where you served for so long,
06:42and that is always called an independent authority,
06:44being and facing these very serious
06:47criticism and charges?
06:48How do you think the next step should be
06:50for the Election Commission?
06:51Whether to give clarification,
06:52should it work around the SIR exercise?
06:54What needs to be done in this case?
06:57I feel very sad that
06:59an institution
07:00which has a worldwide reputation
07:02of delivering free, fair and credible elections
07:05for the last 75 years plus
07:07has come under this kind of bad light
07:09in the whole world.
07:12So, I think that immediate steps
07:14must be taken by CEC
07:16and present ECs
07:17to sit down, sit together,
07:19and whatever is needed to be done
07:22to salvage the reputation,
07:24they should do.
07:25Sir, any suggestions right now?
07:27Do you think SIR exercise
07:29needs to be completely halted?
07:30Do you think some changes must be made?
07:32It is a significant exercise
07:33to identify the voters
07:35and register them again?
07:36Or do you think that
07:37this is something
07:38the Election Commission
07:38needs to take immediate steps?
07:40But what kind would you suggest, sir?
07:44All those lessons
07:46which they have learned
07:47through West Bengal,
07:49through other states,
07:49they should put them in practice
07:51so that SIR goes on
07:54without any problem
07:56which has already occurred.
07:57They should learn from that.
08:00Sir, final question
08:01if I may ask.
08:02I'm sure you have an understanding
08:03of all the three officers,
08:05the CEC as well.
08:07The attack that is coming in
08:08against them,
08:10do you have an opinion on that?
08:11Especially, do you believe
08:12that this is an unfair criticism
08:14or unfair targeting
08:15that's happening
08:16or these are lessons to be learned?
08:17EC must,
08:18or CEC must come out
08:20and give clarification.
08:21Do you know Gyanesh Kumar personally
08:23if you want to talk about that, sir?
08:26I think it is not personal
08:28and whatever needs to be done,
08:30all three have to be
08:31sitting together
08:33and addressing these issues,
08:35taking the bull by the horns
08:37because it's a very serious matter.
08:39Elections commission's reputation
08:41is at stake.
08:42They must not delay it.
08:45All right.
08:46I appreciate you, sir.
08:47Appreciating O.P. Rawat,
08:49he's been the CEC in 2018
08:51and it is eventually about
08:53election commission's reputation
08:54even though he has,
08:55as we have heard,
08:56a very strong view
08:57on the SIR exercise
08:59but he maintained
09:00some differences need to be done.
09:01Sir, what about
09:02the political showdown?
09:03In your tenure,
09:04I'm sure you must have seen
09:05enough of political showdown as well.
09:07There was also a fear
09:08that used to be
09:09of former CECs.
09:10How do you look at
09:11the political bickering?
09:12Do you think that's also
09:13very sad that's happening
09:14because eventually
09:15the targeting is of
09:16CEC especially
09:18and the EC?
09:21Political things
09:22will always be there.
09:24You have to maintain
09:25unanimity.
09:26You have to maintain
09:27objectivity
09:28and transparency.
09:29That is up to you.
09:31Beyond that,
09:31nobody can do anything.
09:34Sir, but what if
09:35the election commission says
09:36why should we give out
09:37details about
09:38what kind of
09:38differences we had
09:40or what kind of
09:41dissent was there
09:42if at all
09:43and if there's a problem
09:44with SIR
09:44because EC believes
09:45SIR is a fair exercise
09:46right now.
09:48Absolutely wrong.
09:50You have to have
09:51confidence of people.
09:53You have to have
09:53confidence of all
09:54stakeholders.
09:55You cannot deny
09:56them facts.
09:58And when such a
09:59news item has come
10:00in media
10:01where everyone
10:03is agitated,
10:04everyone is feeling
10:05cheated,
10:06you should come out
10:07and immediately
10:08give all the details.
10:11that's all I have
10:12time for.
10:13Thank you very much,
10:14sir, for your views
10:15and I hope that
10:16it is being heard
10:17and listened to
10:18and that important
10:19points are being taken
10:20because like he's
10:21mentioning,
10:21it is eventually
10:22about the election
10:23commission's reputation
10:24where we maintain
10:25the CBI,
10:26the EC,
10:27are these independent
10:28organizations that hold
10:30the fort for our
10:30democracy of this
10:32country.
10:32So you heard,
10:33and this is,
10:33remember,
10:34was an important view.
10:35This is not about
10:36political showdown
10:37but to hear it from
10:37a former CEC
10:38about the dissent,
10:40that is natural
10:41but what went on
10:42record.
10:43And that will have
10:44to be clarified
10:45because eventually
10:46it's not that the
10:47CEC can immediately
10:48sign something
10:49from his own,
10:50there has to be a
10:51discussion from other
10:52officials and if that
10:53has happened,
10:54then that is it.
10:54However,
10:55even if there was
10:56dissent that is coming
10:57out as opposition
10:58targeting and as
10:59reports are suggesting,
11:01EC will have to
11:02clarify further on that.
11:04Eventually,
11:04it is the SIR
11:05exercise at stake.
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