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A panel discussion on Democratic Newsroom examines an investigative expose by The Indian Express reporting dissent by two Election Commissioners against Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar.
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00:00Hello and welcome, you're watching Democratic Newsroom. I'm Akshita Nandakopal.
00:04This evening we're going to be talking about the story that by far is the story of the week.
00:10The Indian Express's investigative report on the election commission and the dissent with it.
00:16Of two election commissioners, Meersingh Sandhu and Vivek Joshi, issuing dissent notes on several issues.
00:23I will break that down bit by bit, but the question that we will be asking this evening
00:28is on the opposition's demand, saying that CEC Gyanesh Kumar in light of these revelations
00:33must step down, must resign. Is that demand justified or not?
00:38We'll be joined of course by Rajdeep Sadeh Sai, Preeti Chaudhary, Gaurav Savant and Siddharth Zavrabi
00:43to discuss that and more. Rajdeep, you first as always.
00:47What did you think of the expose? Do you think a demand for resignation is justified, valid?
00:54No, first of all, terrific story done by Indian Express. It's good to see that you get such stories
01:00which bring out facts that are not known otherwise in the public domain. That's what journalism
01:06is supposed to do. So great that a story of this kind has been done. As to whether the election
01:13commissioner's position is untenable or not, I am a small journalist. I am not an opposition politician
01:19who's going to say that the election commissioner should resign on the Democratic newsroom.
01:24But I will say this and I'll say I told you so. The SIR process as it was formed, the
01:29architecture
01:30of the SIR process was deeply flawed. From day one, I've been saying it. Go back to all your
01:35Democratic newsrooms. No one is saying don't clean up electoral rolls. They should be. You should have
01:40every decade, two decades, electoral rolls cleaned up. But the process, the very idea that you delete and
01:47then verify is completely antithetical to the idea that every citizen has a right to vote.
01:53And that's the mess you've landed yourself in. Look at it. And now decisions that other election
01:59commissioners, two of them are saying were illegal or unauthorized. How are those decisions then pushed
02:06through? You can't just give me a casual press release, one page press release and say all is well.
02:12The decisions were unanimous. The charges are far more fundamental. Form 6. Rules cannot be changed
02:19of Form 6 without getting either government approval or parliamentary approval. The fact is that you've
02:28got a centralized software system which is overruling decisions taken by EROs. Goa is providing a clear
02:34example. 97 verified voters. And you don't address those emails. You don't address any of those issues.
02:4216 lakh deletions you ask for from the Supreme Court and the election commissioners don't even know
02:48about it. You are going to the court. So it's not just the election commission split wide open.
02:53It's the process, the decision making that needs sunlight. Give me a point by point rebuttal.
03:00I might be satisfied. No, no. So the opposition is saying resignation to hold accountability. So do
03:05you stand by that? That there should be accountability? 100% accountability. It is an
03:09opaque organization. What's your definition of accountability? It is a definition of accountability.
03:13Give me a point by point rebuttal. How did you arrive at the decision? If the decisions two out of
03:18three have said are illegal and unauthorized, how did those decisions go through? On what basis?
03:23What happened in those? Was it a formal note of dissent? Was that dissent recorded or not?
03:28All of this must come out in the public domain. Election commission is not above the law and
03:34we the citizen must demand these answers. Gyanesh Kumar is not above the law of this land.
03:38Okay.
03:39You just now said that the form 6 should have gone for government approval. Are you saying
03:43the ECE?
03:43Rules.
03:44No, no, no.
03:45Rules have to be changed.
03:45Let me finish.
03:46Whenever you change rules have to vote for government.
03:48Okay, let me.
03:48Which all citizens have supported and fought for decades to have independence, above normal
03:54independence for the safe conduct of democracy. Now we subject to government approval. Is
03:59that your point?
03:59No, no, no. You said point by point. I'm asking you.
04:02My point is the statute, sir. I've checked with previous election commissioners.
04:07One at a time.
04:08On the conduct and the process of the statute.
04:10You can answer this question on form 6.
04:12Yes.
04:14My specific question is in response to Rajdeep saying it should go for government approval.
04:18Because yes.
04:19That's the rule.
04:20I'll tell you. All right. Let me apprise you, Siddharth. Electoral rule 1960. As per that,
04:26the government, it is up to the government, only the government, not the election commission
04:31to bring in any changes where form 6 is concerned. And you know what form 6 is, right? Form 6,
04:38you fill in form 6 if you want to be a new voter. Any change in form 6 goes back
04:42to
04:42the government and the government has to change and amend the registration electoral rules
04:481960. In this, allow me, allow me, allow me to finish, allow me to finish, allow me to finish,
04:55allow me to finish, right? Now, what really happened in, what happened and what was the grouse
05:01here? Because in form 6, an additional question was included in form 6, which said, and this
05:08was included in July, were your parents on last SIR rolls? If your answer was no, you were not
05:15registered as new voter. Now, case in point, allow me to finish.
05:23Now, the fruit of the pudding is 97 people who were left out of the rolls, who had to be
05:29made, you know, come back on the rolls in Goa,
05:31many of them were not registered under this form 6. Let me also add to it. In this, one of
05:38the election commissioners,
05:40Mr. Sandhu, called this, flagged it, it was changed anyway, said that can't happen. The government has to step in.
05:47It was illegal. He called it, no, no, said it can't happen. Then, noted a dissent where he said this
05:53is unauthorized and illegal. The EC is a constitutional body.
05:57Did he put a dissent note? Look, there is some information.
06:01It's a constitutional body, it's a constitutional body, it's a constitutional, there's a difference between a constitutional body. A court
06:08will register dissent. A court will register dissent notes. A constitutional body does not register dissent notes.
06:15So, there are three people. Look, this is not a kangaroo court, right? When an election commission functions, it functions
06:23as per laid out law and procedure.
06:26Chapter 4, transaction of business of election commission. Very clearly, it states 18.2. All business of the election commission
06:33shall, as far as possible, be transacted unanimously.
06:37Or, if the election commission, chief election commissioners and election commissioners differ in opinion or any matter, it shall be
06:44decided according to opinion of the majority.
06:47Do we have clarity as on date, whether this was a majority decision or it was an illegal decision or
06:53one?
06:54We will have to wait for more facts to come out in public domain. Let me complete. Let wait for
07:00more facts to come out in public domain in a court of law for more clarity.
07:05Everyone wants more clarity. Everyone wants more transparency. Everyone wants to ensure that the system is clean.
07:11But, in the garb of sab galate, sab hatado, isko hatado, usko hatado, that's not how a country or a
07:20democracy functions.
07:20Let me come back to what Gaurav said, right?
07:22I'm on facts, not on rhetoric.
07:24Okay, okay. One second, one second. Hear me. You're reading facts on how an election commission needs to function, right?
07:29Factual, right?
07:30Now, let me come down to what really happened. What is the main grouse? Do we, somewhere down the line,
07:34think that the report in Indian Express…
07:37Think is assumption, not fact. So, are you questioning that? Okay, okay, one second. Allow me to finish.
07:41You're on assumption, Deva. Okay, we are working on the assumption that Indian Express is a credible newspaper and they
07:47must have fact-checked…
07:48Assumption is not fact in a court of law. Allow me to finish. Let there be facts.
07:51See, Gaurav, I allowed you to finish, so allow me to finish. We are working under the assumption that Indian
07:55Express is a credible newspaper, that they have fact-checked and they have published it on front page and they've
08:00stuck their neck out.
08:02That is why we are here and that is why we are debating it. Gaurav read out facts on how
08:05EC needs to function.
08:06What has been the basic premise of the Indian Express report? That majority of the commission, they are all equal,
08:12by the way. The CEC is as equal as the other two ECs, right?
08:16That majority of the commission, that is two out of one, were kept in the dark on major decisions.
08:21Number two, the biggest grouse is half the decisions were made without even the two knowing.
08:27So, even if they register dissent, while in a court of law, when there is a dissenting note by one
08:34of the judges, it is made public. This is a constitutional body. The dissent note is never made public.
08:39So, let me come back to it. What is the major grouse? That 14 times, and out of the 14
08:44times, four times, both together, on the same issue, have registered dissent. What have they registered dissent on on the
08:51same issue? Form 6, which we just debated.
08:54Form 6, annexure.
08:56Number two, whether it's an annexure, it's Form 6. Number two, what is the other thing?
09:03Every time, the election commission has gone on record, taking down the opposition's claim that, listen, this election is rigged.
09:12What does the EC say, Akshita? It goes on record to say that our entire SIR process is decentralized. It
09:19is not in the hands of the center or a few.
09:23Twice, twice, there is a dissent note by the two ECs, where they say there's a centralization, where it comes
09:29down to the software. A, there's a defect in the software, where SIR data is concerned.
09:34And there is centralization of it, where the local officials on ground can't even add the bona fide names who
09:41they think have cleared the purity test.
09:43So, the election commission has admitted.
09:46Give Siddharth his time.
09:47No, I really think that if we are going to question the procedural issues around the implementation of the exercise,
09:57that's a separate debate.
09:58As far as we know, and unless the court changes its mind on the 27th of May, if I recall
10:04the date correctly this year, the issue of the conduct of SIR and its legality and the powers of the
10:10election commission are not in doubt.
10:13You could also talk about Form 8, Preeti, but I don't want to digress from the subject.
10:18I don't think there is full information available, because yesterday's Pressley's of the election commission, and Rajdeep referred to that,
10:28that it's one page.
10:29I would say, at least in that one page, they are saying, unless countered, that the decisions were subsequently all
10:36agreed upon.
10:37In case, during debate and the government working system is that everything is put on paper, if they have had
10:44disagreements, it's for the remaining two commissioners to now come out and subject themselves to interrogation.
10:51Let me complete my point.
10:52Just one more point.
10:52I am very curious that why did their reference go to the cabinet secretary?
10:59Were the two commissioners submitting the authority and prestige and unbridled powers of the election commission to the country's top
11:07bureaucrat?
11:07Because if they had substantial issues around the working of the commission, their reporting authority in some ways is the
11:14president of India.
11:15So, therefore, I am unclear as to what transpired between these objections and the final decisions.
11:25You see, let's be very clear.
11:27You see, for example, centralization of the voter database, where a software sitting in Delhi has greater powers than the
11:38EROs who are the final authority as per judicial orders and as per the law of the land.
11:43They are the ones who decide and go as a stark example.
11:4797 people who are verified by the ERO.
11:50He is writing emails to Delhi and Delhi saying we can't roll it back.
11:53The software won't roll it back.
11:55What is the percentage of errors of such kind as a proportion of the total?
12:01I'll give you a classic example.
12:03Of so far, of so far, of the appeals that have gone under adjudication in West Bengal, 93% have
12:11been found to be genuine citizens.
12:1393% of how many who applied and how many who did not apply?
12:17Because, Mr. Gaurav Savant, if you go through the entire process of the 22 lakh people whose appeals are pending,
12:23it will take 12 years.
12:25It will take 12 years for the tribunal.
12:2712 years, I will not be able to vote.
12:29No, no, Mr. Gaurav Savant is...
12:32At the same time, you do not want illegals in your country voting.
12:34Till today, what rubbish is he talking?
12:37This is how he digresses.
12:38You do not, you talk rubbish.
12:42What is the illegal...
12:44Here again, if there are illegals who are not citizens, the government of India or the election commission was duty
12:52-bound to inform this to the people of the country.
12:55How many illegal...
12:55How many ghuzpetias have you found?
12:57How many illegal...
12:58I'm giving you facts.
12:59Just a minute.
13:00I'm giving you facts.
13:0122 lakh people have gone in appeal.
13:03Out of that, barely 2.1% cases have been heard as of now.
13:06Out of that, 94% have proved to be genuine citizens.
13:10One minute.
13:11Since you said, what percentage of this software, so-called logical discrepancies are weeding out illegal citizens?
13:19They are not.
13:20The reality is they are not.
13:22Therefore, the point is, if you...
13:24And the election commissioners, the other election commissioners have red flagged it.
13:28What was the CEC's response to them?
13:30Were these objections accepted?
13:32If rejected, then why rejected?
13:34Were they investigated?
13:35Were they resolved?
13:37If they were resolved, why hasn't the election commission published the explanation?
13:41If they were not resolved, does that mean that the other election commissioners have allowed self-admittedly illegal, unauthorized decisions
13:49to pass?
13:49What does this say, madam, about the decision-making process of the ECI?
13:53Who will decide this?
13:54Somebody has...
13:55ECI is not about the law.
13:57Nobody is saying ECI is above the law.
13:59Everybody is saying the system has to be transparent.
14:01But on facts, this will have to be decided in a court of law.
14:05Or if you want the CEC to be impeached, then 100 MPs will have to sign.
14:10It has to go on with...
14:11That is not true.
14:11The number of MPs that are required for the impeachment have already signed on, but the notice has not been
14:17accepted by the...
14:17Is it your case...
14:19One second.
14:20I'm not saying it should be impeached.
14:21I'm asking you a question, sir.
14:22Is your case that the errors outweigh the remaining approved cases in SIR?
14:32How many have been approved?
14:33If there are doubtful rejections, in your words, if there are people who have faced hardships, those numbers are known.
14:40No one is contesting.
14:41But as a proportion of the total epic cards in India, what is the percentage?
14:45Should we just focus on the errors and not focus on the positive part of the...
14:50Mr. Siddharth Zarabi, every Indian citizen has a right to vote.
14:54Can I just come in?
14:54Every Indian citizen has that.
14:56Who decides that?
14:57Who decides who is a citizen?
14:58One second.
14:59One second.
14:59What kind of logic is this, sir?
15:01You are in the voting list.
15:02You can't tell me, oh, 10 people have...
15:04Is a Bangladeshi a citizen?
15:05Rajdeep, but...
15:05Where is it?
15:06Prove it.
15:07So let the process play out.
15:08It has not been...
15:09No, so there's no data of that.
15:10Till today, questions have been asked in Parliament.
15:14How many Guzpatiyas have been...
15:15You found no answers.
15:16Let them answer it.
15:17But how do you answer it?
15:19Is the error that the...
15:20Okay, one at a time, one at a time, Preeti has been...
15:22Don't make this Guzpatiyargument.
15:24It is not there.
15:24Everyone, everyone, Preeti is a background.
15:26Don't create mysterious arguments.
15:26She can't shout over everyone.
15:27It's not that these are mysterious arguments.
15:30It's not that these are mysterious arguments.
15:31Please put it out in public domain.
15:32Voter list is something clear.
15:33Okay, okay, one second.
15:34Let's come back.
15:35People who have died, people who have moved.
15:37Okay, let's...
15:38You know, those have been very clearly mentioned.
15:41Please clean them up.
15:41Please say no.
15:42And those who are not reapplying...
15:44Preeti...
15:45You know, this conversation is once again a rhetorical conversation.
15:48Not at all, I've given facts, madam.
15:49No, no, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, please allow me.
15:51Let's come back to the case.
15:52And Gaurav, with what you raised in West Bengal, what happened in West Bengal?
15:56Once again, Supreme...
15:57They were in...
15:58Right now, there are 38 lakhs appeals which are lying with the tribunals.
16:0238 of them.
16:0322 lakhs are the ones whose name were deleted.
16:0727 were deleted.
16:0822 of 2 lakhs of them have gone back in appeal.
16:12What about the remaining 5 lakhs?
16:13Can I allow...
16:13What about the remaining 5 lakhs?
16:15That's okay.
16:15This is not the story.
16:16Can I just come back?
16:17Oh, 5 lakhs is not the story.
16:185 lakhs is not the story.
16:20Okay, 5 lakhs is not the story.
16:21Allow me to tell you what the story is.
16:23I'll come back.
16:245 lakhs would not have impacted...
16:255 lakhs would not have impacted election outcome.
16:27If you are just going around in circles, let me come back to the story.
16:29The story is what the Indian Express report says and I'm coming back to it.
16:33What about the 5 lakhs?
16:34If you just answer me on the 5 lakhs...
16:37Allow me to...
16:37If you allow...
16:37If you allow...
16:37Look up.
16:38What about the 5 lakhs?
16:39Why is 5 lakhs not the story?
16:41What's going on?
16:41One second.
16:42Allow me to finish.
16:43Right?
16:4422 lakhs who were deleted have appealed.
16:4727 lakhs were deleted.
16:48Allow me to...
16:4827.
16:49So that you are 2 lakhs.
16:50She said 22 lakhs were deleted.
16:53Appeal.
16:53Appeal.
16:54Have appealed.
16:55Right?
16:55Out of...
16:56And 16 lakh...
16:5816.1.
16:59Right?
17:00Are also appeals which...
17:02What are those appeals?
17:03Now I'll tell you what those appeals are.
17:04EC has made those appeals.
17:05Allow me.
17:05No, no.
17:06Allow me.
17:06Yes.
17:06EC has...
17:07So what happened?
17:08The Supreme Court asks the Election Commission on a petition.
17:12Now this is also a dissent in Bengal.
17:15Right?
17:15Supreme Court asks the Election Commission who has appealed for the deletion of 16.1 lakh voters.
17:23It's come from the EC.
17:25It's come from the EC.
17:25Mr. Sandhu who is one of the Election Commissioners asks his...
17:29Asks his employees in the EC.
17:31Who authorized it?
17:32Who authorized it?
17:33They are saying we have no idea.
17:35The EC has no idea.
17:37Has no idea that the EC has appealed.
17:39Hear me out.
17:40Yeah.
17:40That was a dissent which was noted by the Election Commissioner.
17:44One of them.
17:45And sent at that point of time to the CEC.
17:49No answer.
17:51Right?
17:51The question that will come up.
17:53Again.
17:53May I just...
17:54So Preeti Chaudhary mentioned 27 lakhs deleted.
17:5722 lakhs appealed.
17:59What about the remaining 5 lakhs?
18:01When you ask where are those Bangladeshis?
18:03Where are the Guzpatias?
18:03I don't think God have understood that.
18:04Where are those...
18:05You don't understand.
18:06They are not Guzpatias.
18:07I don't understand.
18:08I don't understand.
18:09Those who are dead.
18:10Those who are dead.
18:11Those who have moved.
18:12One second.
18:13I have an answer to your question.
18:15You ask the question.
18:16Answer.
18:16It is a ploy to constantly turn this...
18:18Nobody once is saying SIR is illegal.
18:21Nobody once...
18:22Being unfair doesn't mean...
18:24Being unfair...
18:27Nobody is questioning the legality of it.
18:29You know what I love about this conversation is...
18:31Because when there are no answers you turn it around Guzpatia.
18:33Let me be very clear about that.
18:35Guzpatia is a very critical issue.
18:36Let me be very clear about that.
18:38Nobody is questioning SIR.
18:39It is legal.
18:40But is it fair?
18:42And has it been...
18:42Has it been conducted in a fair manner?
18:44That is the question.
18:45So ultimately...
18:46Can I give you hard facts?
18:48There is no argument.
18:49I have last two minutes.
18:50Last two minutes.
18:51I will give you another hard fact.
18:52Hold on.
18:53I will give you one thing.
18:54One minute.
18:54Let me say one thing.
18:57Nobody is saying SIR process should not be fair.
19:01It needs to be fair.
19:02It needs to be transparent.
19:04Any discrepancy needs to be highlighted.
19:06That is what needs to be done.
19:08But in the garb of it...
19:10In the garb of it...
19:11What is happening?
19:13SIR Rukwado says...
19:14Is that not problematic?
19:16Is that not problematic?
19:16No...
19:16Who has said SIR?
19:18That is not the debate.
19:19We are not...
19:19That is not the debate.
19:19We are not...
19:20That is not the debate.
19:21Can I make a simple point?
19:24Please understand the numbers.
19:26Please look at the numbers.
19:28You are saying you know...
19:2813 crore Indians as of now...
19:31One minute.
19:31In this exercise...
19:32Stand to lose as of now.
19:34They will be served notice.
19:35But 13 crore...
19:3613 crore is not a small number.
19:38Out of a 97 crore electorate...
19:40Stand technically under SIR as it stands today to lose their voting rights.
19:44Number one.
19:45Maharashtra.
19:462 crore voters have come down.
19:482 crore.
19:49Who are those 2 crore voters?
19:51Who are those 2 crore?
19:51I want to know.
19:51One minute.
19:52Who are those 2 crore?
19:52From 2024 Lok Sabha to 2024 Vidhan Sabha.
19:5640 lakh voters added.
19:58From 2024 November Vidhan Sabha to 2026...
20:02Now August.
20:032 crore voters deleted.
20:05Okay.
20:05Who is...
20:05Where is the accountability for this?
20:07We are seeing what is happening in Delhi.
20:09So are you saying...
20:09And the poor and marginalised are running around...
20:12With documents that they have to find...
20:14To prove that...
20:15And even if they prove...
20:16We say...
20:17All political parties in this country...
20:19Gyanesh Kumar...
20:20All the country and explanation.
20:22Gyanesh Kumar should come on the democratic newsroom...
20:25And answer the question.
20:26Will you agree with that?
20:26Sure.
20:26That's what I am saying.
20:27Gyanesh Kumar cannot hide anymore.
20:29Why not?
20:30Where is Gyanesh Kumar?
20:31Gyanesh Kumar Hajir ho.
20:33We will all...
20:34Gyanesh Kumar Hajir ho.
20:35Rajdeep Sarjai said in kangaroo court.
20:37Kangaroo court.
20:38I am a citizen.
20:40He has to answer my question.
20:4213 crore people have been deleted by your exercise.
20:45Hajir ho.
20:46Okay.
20:46Well done.
20:47But beyond that...
20:49Beyond that...
20:49Let's edit on that.
20:50Are we saying that people are not moving around in this country...
20:52People are not going from point A to point A...
20:54Let's edit on that.
20:55This is...
20:55This will go non-stop.
20:56I don't have time.
20:57I think what we can all agree on...
20:59We've got all of our differences.
21:00SIR is necessary, yes?
21:01Yes.
21:01SIR should be fair, yes?
21:03And transparent.
21:04They should be fully transparent.
21:05Absolutely transparent, yes.
21:06That's not what we're discussing.
21:07But no can do.
21:07This is not an SIR.
21:08The discussion is very clear.
21:09Should the election commission...
21:11The contact of the election commission...
21:12Should the election commission come out tomorrow and take every question, be it...
21:17So fair, transparent is exactly that.
21:19Fair, transparent is exactly that.
21:20That they should be answering the questions that have come out in the last few days...
21:24About how they've functioned, about how the SIR is operating.
21:27There are questions.
21:28The election commissioners put out a statement, but we leave it for you, the viewer, to decide...
21:31If you're convinced by the statement that's come in by the election commission or not.
21:36That's all we have time for on this Democratic Newsroom.
21:37Thanks for tuning in.
21:38Namaskar.
21:56Bye bye ...
21:58...