- 2 minutes ago
She's best known for her ten years hosting TLC's "What Not To Wear," but today, Stacy London is even more vocal about her perspectives on personal styleâit's never about how young, rich, or thin we are; it's about getting real with ourselves at the most crucial moments in our lives.
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear.
00:26For 10 seasons, What Not to Wear shook millions of viewers from their dressing doldrums, but
00:31it was Stacey London's role as mentor and fashion fixer that allowed guests and millions
00:36of fans alike to see the inextricable link between what we wear and who we really want
00:40to be. Since What Not to Wear wrapped three years ago, Stacey's been busy. She joined
00:46The View as a host. She penned a book, The Truth About Style. She launched an independent
00:51stylist network. She gave her notorious streak of gray hair a leading role in a slew of Pantene
00:56ads. And, most recently, she headed back to the TLC network with her new show, Love, Lust,
01:02or Run.
01:05But despite her reputation as a tiger mom of tough love, Stacey has redefined how we think
01:10about personal style. She's handed over the reins to everyday women everywhere, to use
01:15as a form of liberation and strength. It's never about how young, rich, or pretty we are.
01:20It's about getting real with ourselves at the most crucial moments in our lives, and allowing
01:25our clothes to become the uniform we wear to experience them in a whole new way.
01:32Hi, Stacey.
01:33Hi, Christine.
01:34I'm so happy to have you here as a guest on Unstyled.
01:37I'm very happy to be here. I'm very honored. I mean, it's great to do anything with you.
01:42Oh, please. Thank you so much.
01:43Don't give me this old, please. No, seriously.
01:46What Not to Wear ran for 10 seasons.
01:48It did.
01:49That's an incredible, successful 10 seasons. It really put you on the map and made you a
01:54huge star. But I could actually say that you put the show on the map.
01:57Oh, that's very kind.
01:58It's true. Because the show and the concept of the show, which you were a living example
02:04of, just changed the way people thought about the things that they wear.
02:07Yes. That did not occur to me. It did not really come fully formed to me until I got
02:13to What Not to Wear. And part of the reason was that I had this skill set in high fashion,
02:19right? I'd started at Vogue. I assisted incredible editors and stylists, and I worked with amazing
02:25photographers. My first shoot ever was with Irving Penn. I mean, he was my idol in high
02:29school. It was amazing.
02:31That is amazing.
02:31That's a skill set that was really, I mean, drilled into me to be able to style a photograph,
02:38you know, a hundred pound, six foot model. But it wasn't until I went freelance and I
02:43started doing more commercial work and working with like real actors and kids, men, all sorts
02:48of things that I didn't really have the breadth of knowledge for at the time, that I started
02:53to like notice that, you know, you want everybody to look and feel good, right? And then poof,
02:58I get this show out of the blue. It really was amazing. Things do show up when you need
03:04them to. And I was bored of styling. I just didn't know what to do. And I got to the
03:09show
03:09and after having been in fashion for so long, and I was like, okay, I really don't care what
03:14Karl Lagerfeld is doing with tweed this season. Like, you know, I can tell you he's doing
03:19tweed. So whatever variation it is, like good for him. But it wasn't very interesting to me
03:25anymore. And I felt kind of empty about it. And when I got to what not to wear, I noticed
03:32this unbelievable amount of, you know, power that we were giving people by putting them
03:41in a different pair of jeans that they went from feeling lousy about themselves for having
03:46gained 10 pounds and losing their sense of style while having three kids to putting them
03:50in an outfit that just made them remember or recognize who they are. And that is when,
03:58you know, I was like, oh my God, I studied philosophy and psychology and literature in
04:02college. Now I know why. Now I know why fashion and psychology actually have, or should I say
04:09style and psychology, they meet. They meet at the corner of happy and healthy, just like
04:14Walgreens. And nobody at that time was talking about it that way. Nobody was talking about
04:21it that way. Everybody was still of the mindset that fashion was this exclusive elitist kind
04:26of secret coven, right? I mean, you know, television shows were either beautiful and rich and you
04:32had it or you weren't or you weren't. And exactly, exactly. Very binary, very black and
04:37white. And then you had shows like, I mean, I'm going way far back. The Swan was like the
04:42first makeover show, but that was like a little bit cray cray. And then you had Queer Eye and you
04:46had Us and you had Project Runway and you had shows that were actually showing you what fashion
04:53can do, what it can do, not just what it is, but what it can do and how people, individuals
04:59can take
05:00hold of it and make it their own instead of being dictated to by an industry. And that for me
05:05got
05:06more and more and more important in the way that I would talk about style. Style is about an
05:11individual and fashion is an industry. And it's an industry that runs on insecurity. That's why,
05:16you know, if you don't get the latest thing, you feel like you don't belong. It's a-
05:20Or you're not good enough.
05:22You're not good enough. And that's why it's a multi-billion dollar industry because you tap
05:26into somebody's insecurity. That's some powerful stuff, right? But there's a way to turn that
05:31around and it doesn't matter how much money you have and it doesn't matter what size you are or how
05:36old you are or what the color of your skin is or what gender you identify with. It is possible
05:41for everyone. And that is like the most amazing thing that I learned in the 10 years that I worked
05:47there.
05:48I think it was one of the first times on television that I'd ever seen, and I would include it
05:53in the
05:53fashion space, that I'd ever seen an emotional line drawn between what was happening to this person,
06:01this character, and how they were feeling. And I think that it was just always about the
06:07superficial side, like how it looked. You know, did it make you look thin?
06:11Right. But, you know, here's the thing. This is the great thing about style. The reason that it is
06:15such a great antidote when somebody is not feeling themselves is because you do see it. It's visual.
06:21But when you see a very fast and visceral change in yourself, once you see that that's possible,
06:28you start to wonder what else is possible. You know, the idea of seeing is believing is a
06:32shortcut. It's like seeing is feeling something different, which means that you can think and
06:38believe something different. And that's what leads to a new belief system. And that's why the visual is
06:44so important. That's why style is this awesome tool to have in your arsenal when you can't change
06:51your belief system, when you don't know how to change how you feel about yourself. And that can be on
06:56a super deep level. I mean, insecurity is boundless, right? It's just like, it's in people's subconscious.
07:02They can't let go of the story that they've told themselves. And by changing what you see
07:08is the first step in changing what you believe.
07:19I think it also has a lot to do with our closets. It does.
07:23It's so true.
07:24And you don't want to deal with it and you can close the doors on it. And I think obviously
07:28that's a huge
07:28metaphor in life. And I think that there is something so symbolic about the shit that we
07:34stash in our closets.
07:35Oh, for sure.
07:36There's this sense of like, I have so much stuff and I have nothing to wear, right? I mean,
07:40we hear this over and over and over again.
07:41It's not who I want to be.
07:42It's not who anybody wants to be. Now we take it for granted that the closet and getting dressed
07:47in the morning is always going to be a thing. It's always going to be a hassle. And I don't
07:52believe that. Like, I actually believe that your closet should be a place of joy, of fun and your
07:58imagination and creativity. And it can be so wonderful. And all you have to do is organize
08:04it so that it is. And that means going through and slogging and doing the work. But once you've
08:10front do all that work at the front end, the reward is that then it's sort of manageable,
08:15right? And that also means having to come to terms with the things that you need to let
08:19go of. I am not big on sentimentality when it comes to clothing. I don't like to keep
08:24tons of things that don't fit me, even though my weight goes up and down. And I should probably
08:27just like hold on to a few things. I just don't want to. If I lose weight, I want new
08:31things.
08:32And if I gain weight, then I want new things.
08:33There's always another maxi dress out there.
08:35Exactly. But the other thing about it is that some things are no longer appropriate. They don't
08:39fit who I am and my life now. And to hold on to them out of some sort of nostalgia
08:44doesn't
08:44necessarily serve you in that sense of joy, right? Because it keeps you rooted in a person that you
08:51were and not the person who you are and who you're becoming. So I think it's very important to be
08:57honest
08:57about what needs to go from your closet.
08:59I think a lot of being honest about what needs to go is being honest about who you want to
09:04be.
09:04Yes. And that's self-awareness.
09:06I think that's where a lot of the pain and the frustration comes from. I know that I felt that
09:10way myself. You've talked a lot over the years about dealing with and living with body dysmorphia.
09:16Tell me a little bit about that. And is it something that you still have to address,
09:21that you have to kind of struggle through?
09:23For sure. I mean, body dysmorphia isn't like the flu. It doesn't actually go away. Not really
09:30ever, I don't think. I think there are-
09:32It's a flare up at certain times in your life, though.
09:34Right. I think that it goes into remission and then it can flare up. But it is one of
09:38those things that I have struggled with my whole life. And body dysmorphia is one thing
09:43if you look at yourself in the mirror and you really can't see yourself and your body doesn't
09:47really change. If you don't gain weight or lose that much weight, usually a five pound
09:53range. Then body dysmorphia, it's really quite difficult because you just simply cannot see
10:00yourself. It's more complicated for somebody like me who has a history of eating disorders
10:05because my body has looked so different all through the years that the body dysmorphia gets
10:12confused with like just not being able to see myself anymore because one year I'm 20 pounds
10:17lighter and the next year I'm 20 pounds heavier. And that's a big, you know, that's a rollercoaster.
10:22So I really, you know, as much as I try to kind of deal with that, I've also come to
10:29the conclusion
10:29I'm a fluctuator. So finding my middle ground is going to have to be a wider middle ground than
10:35maybe most people.
10:36That's really smart.
10:38Right. Instead of beating the shit out of myself to basically say like,
10:41I don't know how I look. I don't know how to dress. I have been literally every size
10:47from like a double zero to a size 16.
10:50But let's be honest, you seeing yourself on television, that just really amplifies it though.
10:54I mean, I can only imagine the couple of times that I'm on television, I can't even believe
10:57how different I look.
10:58Yeah. No, it's unbelievable. People meet me and they're like, oh my God, you're so different
11:01in person. Oh my God, you look so much thinner in person. I'm like, shoot me. I'm like,
11:06thanks for telling me that since usually my job is on television. So I really appreciate that.
11:11Um, but you know, look, whatever other people think, that's another thing that I've had to
11:16get over. I mean, the amount of hate that is available for reading on social media on literally
11:22any platform could kill somebody, no matter how strong their ego is. Um, it's too, it's painful.
11:28So that's not how I'm going to judge what I look like in the mirror. I can't do that. But
11:33what I can do
11:34is be kinder and gentler with my body so that what I'm seeing isn't something that I'm always like,
11:40I may look heavier to myself than I am, but that doesn't mean that I can't treat myself lovingly.
11:46And that doesn't mean that I can't still find something that I'd rather wear over something
11:49that I'm trying to stuff myself into. I can be that person so that I can wear different sizes
11:56at different times, depending on where my body's at and how I'm feeling and make myself feel good.
12:02That's in my control. Nobody else gets to control that. And that's the thing about body dysmorphia.
12:07You can live alongside of it and not have it take over in the way that you perceive who you
12:13are.
12:14What are three things that women in their twenties and thirties can look forward to in their forties?
12:19You don't care so much what people think and your style will really probably be pretty decided.
12:26You'll have an idea of what you want to say to the world because your identity will be so much
12:31more cemented in experience. And what's another thing? You know, you don't have to go out every
12:38night. I love that. I mean, you know, you just don't. I wish someone told me that when I was
12:43in my
12:43twenties. Yeah. I'm like trying to think, I'm like, you don't, you, you are not going to want to be
12:47as social. There is a solidarity between, uh, my friends that I did not have in my twenties.
12:54You know, some of them are newer friends. Some of them are super old friends, but there's such a
13:00loyalty between my friends now, men and women. I don't remember my twenties. I was running so fast.
13:06I was like, don't look down, you know, don't, don't look up because if you do, you'll trip.
13:10So I feel like thirties are the most fun decade in the sense that you're not making sort of the
13:17youthful mistakes of your twenties. You're still trying to define yourself, but that is the decade
13:24in which you can do it. You hit 40 and it's like, God, you look good enough to get away
13:29with
13:29whatever you did at 20, but you're smart enough not to. Let's talk about your boyfriend for a second.
13:36Okay. He's, he's an artist too, isn't he?
13:38He is. He's a photographer really. And we were really close friends before anything ever happened,
13:43which by the way, I highly recommend. I did not know that it was such a good idea to be
13:48friends
13:49with somebody before you started dating them instead of just dating them and then realizing
13:52that they were schmucks. The great thing about him and the great thing about meeting him now
13:58is that I'm finally, now meaning in your forties, now meaning in my forties is that I finally feel
14:02like I'm in a place where I can have a relationship that feels healthy and not dramatic and I don't
14:08need the up and the down and the, you know, the rollercoaster ride. I don't need that to feel
14:14passionate. And I think for a long time I did. I think that a lot of that comes from just
14:20wanting
14:21this desire that we feel like we have to check those boxes. And I think that when you start to
14:25get to
14:26this place in our lives, we're both in our forties, we're close in age. I think that you start to
14:30let
14:30those go and you start to realize that, you know, my life is good. My life is, is moving forward
14:36and
14:36I have control over it. And I think that once you have that reassurance that you are in control of
14:40your destiny, I think you start to let go of that, that, that need for extreme situations because
14:47that's the only way you're going to be able to get a box checked. Yeah. And honestly, I think that
14:53part of being in your forties is that I don't think it's possible to feel like you're in control of
14:58your life in your twenties, certainly. And I think that your thirties really is about grappling with
15:03checking boxes. But I would also venture to say, and this is something that's really been
15:08preoccupying me lately, is this idea of ageism is still an issue, particularly with women and
15:15especially in this country. And I don't think that I could be as happy or as comfortable as I am
15:23now
15:23if I wasn't this old. And part of it is that you don't feel like you actually do understand and
15:29inhabit your own personality, your own body, yourself in a way that's not about comparing
15:35yourself to other people. But when I really think about it, our generation of women, we are the first
15:41generation of women that don't need anything from anyone. I mean, we, you know, my mom was a frontline
15:46feminist. She taught me like, you go out, you make the money, you do the things, you don't rely on
15:52somebody else. That's the first time in the history of people, of any people, that women are
16:01completely free in the sense that they don't have to get married. They don't have to have kids. They
16:07can make their own money. And there's a real complication there because they can have their
16:12own sex. Yeah, they can have their own sex for sure. And what's so interesting to me about all of
16:17it
16:17is that if those are the traditional markers, right, by which we measure women's worth.
16:24And validation. I think it's so much about validation.
16:27For so long, people are like, you didn't get married? You know, they're looking at me like
16:30I'm a crazy person. I'm like, and you did? Yeah. So there, you know, there's, there's that. But I
16:35mean, I was like, well, okay, so I didn't get married.
16:37I love those conversations, by the way. They're great. They still happen occasionally,
16:41too, which is so insane. But this is what I mean. All of there is this kind of secret judgment
16:46over this new species of woman. I don't know what I don't know what to call her yet. But I'm
16:53definitely her. Kate Bullock, Rebecca Traister. There's a lot of writers that are finally tapping
16:59into this intense, this intense kind of moment, you know, where people are finally recognizing
17:05the, the power, the sheer power of, of unmarried women.
17:10Oh, absolutely. I mean, that New York magazine article where it's like single women are the
17:14strongest voting, you know, you know, group. I thought that was pretty incredible. It's,
17:20but it's not even just about being single. It's the choice of being single and not having
17:25children. And there's still this weird, I think, lizard brain, you know, when you're not
17:32viable biologically anymore, if you can't have kids, then all of a sudden, it's like, well,
17:38what's, what's your worth? What's your worth value, right? This is why older men always date
17:42younger women, because they decide, you know, they're children, they don't want to have kids
17:45till they're in their 50s. And they want to have them with 20 year olds. Eventually, I think biology
17:50will catch up to our society. And women will, because we're going to live to be so much longer,
17:55women will be able to have babies in their 40s and 50s, and it won't be a big deal.
17:59But for now, I think it's a really interesting thing. I mean, of course, I could have a child,
18:03I could adopt, I could have a surrogate. That's not what I mean. It's not that I couldn't be a
18:07mother if I wanted to be. But there is this sense of where is the use value in this particular
18:13age
18:13group from 40s, let's say to 80s, because we're going to live to be 100. These are actually our most
18:19vital years as, as people, as women, as grownups. So I don't ascribe to this idea that you get to
18:26your 40s. And it's like, yeah, you know, I know myself. It's like, yeah, I'm so I'm so with it.
18:32I'm like, I really feel myself. And that we're saying it out of some need to kind of justify
18:37the fact that this is a culture that's, you know, so concerned with youth and, and being thin and being
18:44rich.
18:45Neither you nor I have children. And I don't want to say that that's something that kind of bonded us
18:50when we first met. But I do think that there is a certain understanding that I think friends in my
18:57age group that don't have children just get in a way. And I'm not saying that my friends that have
19:01children, I don't enjoy being with them. They don't love me. They don't make they don't make me feel
19:07different in any way. But a lot of people still do.
19:10Absolutely. I think that's a very normal societal reaction.
19:15Regardless of how accomplished, I think both of us are certainly I can speak on behalf of you.
19:21And I think that there is just something that that you're tapping into right now. And it's you've had
19:26some really wonderful quotes recently in some interviews where you're you're digging into this.
19:30I am.
19:31And I like it, you know, you've been touching on in the view. And I think that this dialogue is
19:37going
19:37to continue to get richer. And it's going to it's going to just make everyone less siloed in their
19:44worlds and in their experiences, whether they're parenting or not.
19:47Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's parenting, but it is also ageism. And really, there's no
19:53other other way around saying it. I mean, we are this culture that is consumed with this kind of
19:58youth, beauty, rich, thin, whatever. You know, we've got advertising and media that reinforces that
20:05over and over and over again. And, you know, I don't think that that's going to change,
20:10to be completely honest. But I do think that I think it is changing. What I think is changing is
20:15that it's not the only choice. It's not the you know, to me, what I'm finding as I age is
20:22that I
20:22feel so much more centered, so much more willing to lift other women up. Whereas, you know, when I
20:28was growing up, there was much more of the sense of competition between women, you know, only one
20:34person was going to get the job, only one girl was going to get the guy. And I don't feel
20:38that at all
20:38now. Now I'm like, what can I do to help my fellow sisters? You know, what do I do? How
20:44do I lift
20:44them up? Do I produce a television show for them? You know, whatever it is, but something that makes
20:49I feel so connected to women in a way that I couldn't when I was younger. I mean, that was
20:55also
20:55part of my own insecurities, for sure. But it feels so celebratory to me to be present with women now
21:03in
21:03a way that I wasn't really able to be before. So you know, when I look around and I see
21:08a society
21:09that does not revere women in their 40s or 50s or 60s or 70s, I'm astounded because there every other
21:18culture understands that age should be revered, and particularly matrilineal. And protected. Yes.
21:25I mean, we are the we are the keepers of all of this knowledge where you know, why? Why aren't
21:30you
21:30asking for advice and help and all of these things? But I do think that you're right that
21:34the needle is moving, mostly because I think that millennials are moving the needle. Who knows,
21:41because there's a lot of talk. So it could all be very performative. I'm trying to give them credit,
21:45but we'll see. What I do think they're doing is moving the needle in terms of right, talking about
21:51gender, talking about sexuality, talking about fertility, talking about being married versus being
21:59single, you know, living together and never getting married, you know, there's a lot more
22:02openness. And I'm also starting to see it even in younger people when it comes to race, even though
22:08we have such problems in this country, with a younger generation, I feel like they're so much more
22:14open and understanding and less divisive. The one thing that I really see with millennials that I feel
22:20like I can learn from is that they're not binary. They don't believe that there's just black and
22:26white. And that comes to everything. And so it's race, it's weight, it's beauty, it's all sorts of
22:34things that there's a much bigger, expansive definition of those words for a younger generation.
22:40I think that they have this extreme desire to see themselves in that landscape. And if it's black or
22:46white, most people are going to be excluded.
22:49Yeah.
22:49You know, it's very funny, because I refinery is one of those sites that I feel is so incredibly
22:56inclusive, which is also new, right? When it comes to a site, we really try, right, that started
23:02really about fashion and about style. And the way that it's expanded has, I mean, it's become a culture
23:09site. And it really is for all different age groups. And I think there's so much what's so great about
23:15it is
23:15that it can feel totally niche. And yet, at the same time, the more niche you go, the more each
23:20of
23:21those groups gets to experience the other.
23:24Stacey London, it's been such a pleasure to have you on Unstyled. I adore you.
23:29Thank you so much. I adore you. And I'm pretty sure that we're related, if not sisters in a past
23:34life.
23:34Oh, we're definitely related.
23:35They're definitely distant cousins.
23:37I hope you're inspired after hearing Stacey London's story. For even more Unstyled extras,
23:43check out Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick. You can also join the conversation using
23:48the hashtag Unstyled across your social media. And of course, we'd be super grateful if you'd
23:53please subscribe to Unstyled on iTunes and rate us while you're there. You can head to
23:58refinery29.com to find this episode and more, and make sure to sign up for our exclusive Unstyled
24:03newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every week.
24:05Our show today was produced and edited by Elisa Kreisinger, with production assistance
24:09from Rebecca Easley for Refinery29. Copy and research support provided by Lila Brilsen.
24:15Our theme music today is by the artist Koff. Hannes Brown produced our episode music,
24:19and we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist. We are launching the season with two episodes,
24:24so stay tuned for my conversation with Danielle Brooks up next.