00:00When we had on the War of Words, it wasn't really, it ended up being about something else.
00:07Let's bring in Nathan Zagura, Brown's radio analyst.
00:10He is on the Wise Heart Right.
00:11We make a right call, Kyle Right Hotline.
00:13Because it's Friday, it's 9 o'clock, and here's Nathan.
00:16Hello, Nathan.
00:17Good morning, Mont Ferrer.
00:18Good to be with you.
00:19Wonderful to have you with us, first and foremost here.
00:25Are we not making a big enough deal about this game on Sunday, Anthony?
00:29And I, because I'm going, guys, we're 5-2.
00:32We're not 1-6.
00:34If we were 1-6, this would be our quote-unquote Super Bowl, blah, blah, blah.
00:38I'm going, hey, if you win, great.
00:40If you don't, not great.
00:42I'll be disappointed.
00:43But I'm not going to be screaming and yelling and losing my mind and saying that everybody sucks and needs
00:49to go.
00:49You're okay.
00:49You're 5-3.
00:50Go down to New Orleans and go win a football game.
00:53Yes.
00:54Listen, it is a big game.
00:56It's not our Super Bowl.
00:57This is a big game because it's a big game.
01:005-2 Browns, 5-2 Steelers.
01:02This is only the fifth time since 1980 that these teams have met in the regular season when both teams
01:08were over three games over 500.
01:11So, yeah, this is a big game.
01:13The Browns have won the last two meetings under such auspices.
01:15Hopefully they can make it three in a row here.
01:17But this is for first place in the AFC North.
01:19This is to go 3-0 in the division to start the season.
01:23And this is to exercise a great many demons that haunt the Cleveland Browns.
01:29There are 10 guys on the Browns roster right now who were not yet born the last time the Browns
01:34won a regular season game in Pittsburgh.
01:37Aaron Rodgers is the only player in this game who was born the last time that the Browns swept the
01:42Steelers in a season.
01:44So, there's a lot here.
01:46Now, that's not the history of these guys or this team, but it is the history of this rivalry.
01:50And I think it's a huge game.
01:52This is going to be my 14th year on the road with the Browns in Pittsburgh.
01:56I was there to see them beat the Steelers in the playoff game.
02:00COVID, though, a couple hundred people in the stands, very odd environment.
02:04This will be the biggest game that I have gone to at Accra, sure, formerly Heinz Field, in my time
02:11with the Browns.
02:12I'm fired up for it.
02:12I think it is a big deal.
02:13I think it is a big game, and I want to see this Browns team go out there and beat
02:17the Steelers.
02:18Apparently, we needed Nathan at 6-0-1 today to get people truly excited.
02:23This is amazing.
02:24Yeah, Nathan, it's interesting.
02:25The players have certainly talked, reminding us that there were some cheap shots taken the last time these two teams
02:32met.
02:32How does Todd Munkin and the staff handle that by towing the line of, hey, we want this game to
02:39mean something.
02:40We want you to understand the rivalry.
02:42We know what happened last time, but also not going overboard to the point where it gets carried away.
02:49I mean, this is going to be a game, I truly believe, where the more physical team wins.
02:55And so you have to bring the physicality, you have to bring the toughness, you have to bring the tenacity,
03:00but you cannot hurt your team.
03:02You cannot get 15-yard penalties that extend drives or a 15-yard penalty for being foolish and being baited
03:10into, you know, being the second guy in a situation.
03:13So I think it's critically important that they're physical, that they match that, but that they're smart about it.
03:19Lyman, I addressed the trade much earlier in the show a couple times.
03:23I want to get your thoughts.
03:24You know, Jeffrey Simmons goes to the Bears.
03:27They get two first-round picks.
03:28We get Jared Verse and another first-round pick from Miles Garrett.
03:32Some people are like, hey, you guys got to...
03:33And the second.
03:35Okay, I understand that, but some people were saying that we need to address it.
03:39Now, we addressed it, and I want to know your thoughts, because there were some people going,
03:43Kenny, Anthony, is Andrew's eyes not laser?
03:47Did we get hoodwinked here?
03:49Lyman, I gave our opinions that people could find at 923thefan.com and on the free Odyssey app with the
03:54rewind feature.
03:55But let me ask the radio analyst on the University Hospitals Cleveland Browns Radio Network.
03:59Nathan, go.
04:00I think that when you go back to the time that the trade was made, okay, Jared Verse was a
04:07first-round pick.
04:08He's 25 years old.
04:09He was a two-time Pro Bowler and a defensive rookie of the year.
04:11Now, we have not gotten the statistical production from him thus far, but he has been, I said, like hockey
04:18assist.
04:19He would have a lot of sack assists this season because his twists and stunts and his pushing the pocket
04:24have led to a lot of sacks for other people.
04:26But at the time, Jared Verse on the open market, there wasn't a single person who didn't think the consensus
04:32was that he was worth a first-and-a-second-round pick
04:35if he were to be traded on the open market at 25 years old on a rookie deal at that
04:40time.
04:40So if you use that, and that, by the way, is the lowest.
04:43Some people thought he might have gotten two firsts prior to this season.
04:46So if you use that as the low end, the Browns got two firsts and two seconds.
04:49That is better than the haul that was for Jeffrey Simmons.
04:52Now, Jeffrey Simmons is also, there are other factors to that as well from the Bears' perspective.
04:57Number one, they're going for it right now for Super Bowl.
05:00Number two, Jeffrey Simmons is under contract, and the majority of the bonus and guaranteed money has been paid.
05:05So he's actually kind of team-friendly, and they will have him under contract for the next couple of years.
05:11So it's still a different deal.
05:12But the Browns got more compensation in that deal than the Bears did.
05:16You just have to be able to understand what the value of Jared Burse was at the time of that
05:22deal.
05:23And to get him a one and a two, and is there, was there, I don't remember the exact,
05:27if there was another three in the third year, but a one, a two, and Burse was,
05:31that's a pretty good haul for Miles Garrett.
05:34All right, Nathan, we all have analytically driven friends in our life.
05:40Sometimes they're the same friend.
05:42And that same friend, Nathan, is texting me how lucky the Browns have been this year.
05:46And if you go by the analytics that they are due for a clunker and maybe a series of clunkers,
05:54what's the case that the Browns winning one-score games in the manner that they are is not a fluke?
06:00Well, I've said all the time, and I would agree with our analytics friend, Cleve,
06:06that winning one-score games in the National Football League is something that will always regress to the mean over
06:13time.
06:13That doesn't mean in this season it will, but over time, if you were to look at, you know,
06:18if the Browns were to be involved next year in six straight one-score games,
06:23the chances of them winning five again over time is slim.
06:27That's just not the way that the National Football League works.
06:29However, I am encouraged by the fact that there are a couple things.
06:33Number one, the Browns have, this part isn't encouraging,
06:36but this will also regress to the mean in this way in a positive way for the Browns.
06:40The Browns are the worst first-quarter team in the NFL.
06:43The differential right now I think is right around 45 points.
06:46That is an absurd number, and that is something that I think will get better over time.
06:50The second is the offense is coming off of its best performance,
06:53and that to me is the biggest question mark with this team.
06:56Our offensive line, was this a sign of things to come?
07:00Was it just that we matched up with a four-man front that was an attack-style front that we're
07:04used to seeing,
07:05but the fact is that Tennessee Titans defense had six sacks the week before against the Indianapolis Colts.
07:13They had one sack for zero yards against Deshaun Watson.
07:16Our line had not been generating push in the run game,
07:19but last week, when Sean Judkins got at least three yards down the field before contact,
07:24Dylan Sampson over five, those were things we had not seen,
07:28and I don't think it's any surprise.
07:29We rushed for 183 yards.
07:31Deshaun Watson has what I thought was his best game as a Cleveland Brown.
07:34He throws for 308 yards.
07:35We put up 491 yards of offense in that game.
07:39We have young playmakers at every spot.
07:43Everybody who touches the ball, with the exception of Jerry Judy for the Cleveland Browns,
07:46is a first- or a second-year player in the National Football League.
07:49So I believe we're on the path to getting better offensively.
07:53I think our defense remains very good outside of the slow start,
07:57and that's something that I think going on the road in Pittsburgh, it is critical that you get out of
08:01the gates quickly
08:02and try to silence that crowd a little bit.
08:04But this is a young, talented, ascending football team.
08:09So the goal is not to be the same team in November, December, and now into January with the way
08:16that the NFL calendar works
08:18as you were in September and October.
08:20And if you are the same team in November, December, January that you were in September and October,
08:25you probably aren't going to have a ton of success.
08:28And so I think that's what this team is.
08:30As a young team, I think people should be encouraged that this team has the ability to evolve in a
08:35very positive manner
08:36and thus get away from some of the things that our analytical friend would be worried about going forward.
08:42Let me throw something in your direction here, and then I do want to go around the league as always.
08:46Am I supposed to catch it or am I supposed to duck and dodge?
08:49Well, we'll see what you want to do with it.
08:51Is it my imagination or does Aaron Rodgers seem to always want to, since he's been with the Steelers,
08:58does he seem to want to test Denzel Ward?
09:01It's almost like an ego thing.
09:03Or am I just seeing a great player make great plays at big times for the Cleveland Browns?
09:08Does he throw at Denzel as much as I think he does?
09:10I don't think so.
09:12I could go into the numbers, but anecdotally, I would say it felt like when he was trying the DK
09:17Metcalf fades,
09:18they were all against Tyson Campbell.
09:20So not against Denzel.
09:22Denzel got the pick.
09:23And by the way, I welcome him to go at Denzel Ward.
09:26I welcome him to go at Tyson Campbell, too.
09:27I have a lot of confidence in Tyson.
09:29But I don't think so because I even think back to last year,
09:33which was obviously the first time that we saw him with the Steelers,
09:35and they would go when they would – his passing game now is pretty much get it out of his
09:40hands
09:40immediately in the short area to a running back,
09:43and they're very good catching the football onto the backfield with Jalen Warren,
09:46or to get it out of his hands to Jeremy Bernard or one of the tight end short area.
09:49If not, it feels like he's throwing – trying to throw him deep over to Metcalf,
09:52which we took away last time, or he's throwing the just fade or the stop fade on the outside to
09:57Metcalf.
09:58That really seems – that's their whole passing attack.
10:00It is not a complex passing attack, but they are elite at running the football.
10:05They are big up front.
10:06Then they bring in their sixth offensive lineman as a tight end.
10:09They have Darnell Washington, who's basically a seventh offensive lineman,
10:12and so that's the bully ball.
10:13But I don't – I'd have to look – anecdotally to me, I didn't see that.
10:17It felt to me much more like when he felt like he had the one-on-one on the outside
10:22with Tyson,
10:23he would take that shot with D.K., not as much with Denzel.
10:28All right.
10:29Did you want to go around the league?
10:30Yeah, I did.
10:31I wonder right now, Nathan, why there are so many one-score games in this league.
10:35It's the most ever to this point in the NFL season.
10:39Because that – I come back to the question about the Browns, their one-score games.
10:43I mean, the Bills are 4-1 in one-score games.
10:46You know, it's not just us.
10:48Yeah.
10:50Well, first of all, I think it's hard to win in the NFL,
10:53and I think that there is a great deal of parity in this league right now.
10:58You see some weird games and weird results like Tampa, you know,
11:02annihilating Carolina coming off of their bye.
11:04But for the most part, the NFL, there's a lot of talent on both sides of the football.
11:09I think right now you're in kind of a defense is a little bit ahead of the offense,
11:15generally speaking, in the league because of some of the things that are happening
11:19with the blitzes and the shells behind it.
11:21And, you know, certainly with the Minnesota Vikings,
11:23they're doing better than anybody in the league right now.
11:25And I think that it just – it leads to, you know, each possession meeting a little more.
11:31It leads to more competitive football games, and it leads to some of the outcomes that we're seeing.
11:35By the way, I like it.
11:37There's nothing to me that is more exciting than football when it comes down to the fourth quarter
11:43and a couple of drives here because that's when the pressure is ratcheted up.
11:47That's when you see the guys that can come through and deliver in the clutch.
11:50And fortunately for us in the Cleveland Browns, that's been us, you know, more often than not this year.
11:55But I like it.
11:56The parity is there in the league.
11:57It's tough to win in the NFL.
11:59I think teams that, you know, think they're just going to roll their helmets out there
12:03and go have a lot of success, that is – you can't do that week in and week out.
12:07The teams are just – there's too much talent.
12:09Teams are too good.
12:10Are the Vikings being disrespected?
12:12And by that meaning, is Kevin O'Connell being disrespected?
12:17I think he's being appropriately respected or lack thereof a little bit right now
12:23because what they're doing is because of their defense.
12:26Their defense is the best in the NFL by a wide, wide margin right now.
12:31And then you have to kind of scratch your head a little bit that, boy,
12:36J.J. McCarthy all of a sudden doesn't look so bad in New York.
12:39Why did he look so bad in Minnesota?
12:42And why is this offense that has Tyler Murray, that has Justin Jefferson,
12:47that has Jordan Addison, that has Jawan Jennings as the third,
12:52who was a very good player for a very good 49ers team, why – and they've got T.J. Hawkinson,
12:58they've got Aaron Jones, they've got Jordan Mason.
13:02Why is that – why can't this team do much on offense?
13:06And so I think that maybe there is something that it's kind of caught up at that side.
13:11If they do get their offense going, though, that's going to be a really hard team to beat.
13:16Are they a team that's –
13:17By the way, they've been really hard to beat already because nobody's done it.
13:20Yeah, but could they be like a team that's kind of rotting from within,
13:23like I used to say about the Steelers in 2020?
13:26It was under different circumstances, I think.
13:28But, like, if they ended up in, like, the divisional round and lost in their first game,
13:34I don't know how many people would be surprised.
13:37Agreed.
13:37No, that's because at the end of the day, what most people, myself included,
13:43when you look at what's sustainable, is teams that can score.
13:47Because sometimes in the NFL, you have to win a shootout.
13:51It's very – when you are a defense-specific team that you must hold your opponent to,
13:55you know, 20 points or fewer, there's only really so many formulas that lead to victory in a game.
14:02When you're a team that can score no matter what, you can win kind of in any kind of –
14:06you can win a 38-35 shootout.
14:08You can win 38-13.
14:10You can sometimes in a slog, but you need to pull together that last drive, pull it out.
14:14So that feels more sustainable.
14:16And teams that are built the other way in today's NFL with the way that the rules are stacked against
14:20the defense,
14:21it just becomes harder.
14:22The Browns were in that role for a long, long time.
14:24I feel a little bit better about our offense now and the playmakers that we have.
14:27But there was a long time where the Cleveland Browns had to be ahead.
14:31They had to control the game with their defense and their run game.
14:33And that's just as hard because when you get out of that script,
14:35it's hard to make it up and get back into a game.
14:39We thank you so much, Nathan.
14:41All the best.
14:42I'll talk to you Sunday morning, friend.
14:43All right, guys.
14:45Nathan Zagura on the Wise Heart Right.
14:48We Make It Right.
14:48Call Kyle Right Hotline.
14:50I actually had another question I wanted to ask him.
14:51I'm just going to throw a theory out in five minutes when we come back
14:54because I have something very bold for the team we just played
14:59and we just beat last Sunday.
15:00And winning doesn't actually cure everything.
15:04But it sure as hell helps,
15:06especially when you're thinking about our relationship with one Cleveland Brown
15:09in particular.
15:10Ken Carman, Anthony Lima coming in hot.
15:12944 on the fan.
