- 13 minutes ago
A debate on Talking Point examines the tragic death by suicide of undergraduate student Sahil Wakode at IIT Bombay and the allegations of caste discrimination on campus. Panellists discuss the filing of charges under the SC/ST Prevention of Atrocities Act against Professor Suryanarayan Dula following the incident. Alumnus Sudheendra Kulkarni argues against pre-judging guilt before an inquiry and warns against the misuse of legal provisions, stating 'the normal principle of justice is that you are innocent until proven guilty.' In response, Dr Suraj Yengde highlights systemic challenges and statistical data concerning Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe students, alleging institutionalised caste discrimination within higher education institutions. Professor Raghu Murtugudde addresses campus pressure and emphasizes the need for an impartial fact-finding probe to restore trust between students and administration. The discussion raises critical questions regarding student mental health, academic pressure, fair investigation, and institutional accountability across Indian Institutes of Technology.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00So let's raise the big questions at the moment. Are allegations of caste bias in
00:05a case like this premature? Should students wait for a probe report? How to
00:11check IIT campus suicides? How to ensure justice in cases like this both for the
00:17faculty and for the students? Those are some of the big questions we are raising
00:22today. Let's go straight to our talking point.
00:27Okay, joining us now then is a very special panel. I'm joined by Professor
00:31Raghu Murthugude, alumnus of IIT Bombay, visiting Professor IIT Kanpur. Also
00:38joining me Sudindra Kulkarni, another noted alumni of IIT Bombay, Dr. Suraj
00:43Yengde, author of Caste, A Global Story, University of Pennsylvania. Amir Kazi is
00:49All India Students Federation, Mumbai, President Students of Mumbai University.
00:53And Tejas, one of the protesting law students also, he's joining me from Mumbai.
00:58Good to have all of you on the show. Sudindra Kulkarni, I want to come to you first because
01:03you've just put out an appeal to IIT and all IITans to come together to ensure that the
01:09professor is not suspended. You're claiming he is innocent till proven guilty and saying
01:15that this is a misuse of the atrocities act of SCSTs. Do you want to amplify what you're
01:21trying to say? Mr. Kulkarni, are you saying that the student should not be protesting and
01:26the dean should not be suspended over this alleged death by suicide?
01:34Rajdeep, I participate in this debate as a stakeholder because I am an alumnus of IIT Bombay.
01:46I begin by expressing my deepest condolences to the family of Sahil Wakode, the undergraduate student
01:57who tragically committed suicide. If anyone has the right to know why he committed suicide,
02:08suicide, it is his parents, it is his family. And therefore, there must be an impartial investigation
02:21to know the circumstances that led to his suicide. Every student who commits suicide anywhere in India
02:33is a matter of profound pain and concern for everyone. But for me, it's a source of greater pain
02:44because it has happened in my alma mater. At the same time, I must say that I express…
02:55You know, from what you're saying very clearly… Hello?
03:01Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead, please. At the same time, I am anguished by the fact
03:08that Professor Surya Narayan Dula, an eminent academic, has been unfairly targeted even before
03:20the investigation has begun. The Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribe Act, so-called Atrocity Act has
03:31already been invoked against him and which we all know has very stringent provisions. Anyone who faces this
03:44charge is not only humiliated but has to prove his innocence. You know, the normal principle of justice is
03:55that you are innocent until proven guilty. But here, you are proven guilty and now you prove your innocence.
04:04And in all such cases, especially under this act, process itself is punishment.
04:13We all know that the conviction rate in cases of SCSC Act is less than one-third, less than 133
04:22percent.
04:22And it takes a long time. Now, when an eminent academic faces this charge,
04:33and if the provisions are actually enforced, tell me what will the entire faculty of IIT Bombay,
04:43not only IIT Bombay, all IITs and other institutions of higher learning, what will they think?
04:51This is a, the most, I can only call it a law that promotes reverse casteism.
05:00He is not, his guilt is not established, but the punishment has already begun.
05:08How can we justify this?
05:14Okay, let me, let, let, let me stop you for a moment because I want to hear other voices
05:19at this moment. I want to go to you, Mr. Kazi, because you're heading this, you know, Kazmi,
05:25you're heading this student movement that has started Ms. Aamir Kazi, which is trying to put pressure on IIT to
05:32suspend the, the professor. He's already been removed as the Dean for Administrative Affairs.
05:37As Sudindra Kulkarni is saying, you're prejudging guilt. I mean, whatever reports initially came
05:42seem to suggest that the professor had allegedly, I use the word allegedly, seen the student using
05:48an AI tool chat GPT during his examinations. Now, even before any inquiry is conducted, you want the
05:57professor out of the university. Is that fair? Is that a complete reversal of the basic principle
06:02of criminal justice, innocent till proven guilty? Mr. Kazi?
06:09Yes, my first question is that I wanted to hear the professor of our mother and dad. They have
06:17the first one. They have the first one. They have the first one. They have the same question that my
06:23daughter has given the professor of the professor of the law and the law and the law and the law
06:27has given the task. They have been asked about the first one. After that, we have also demanded that,
06:35Of course, if he comes from a valid community,
06:38he comes from a small group,
06:40and this is the narrative that he has cheated.
06:47Because of the cheating,
06:48if he has used the chat to the exam,
06:51then the failure of the IIT was the failure.
06:53How did he get allowed to take the exam?
06:57And after that,
06:59he has copied the chat to the mobile.
07:03He has copied it.
07:05One thing you need to understand,
07:08one of the reasons that no child can't be a suicide,
07:12or he can't be a mother.
07:14It has a history,
07:16and it is played by his father,
07:19because Sahil had spoke to his father
07:21before attempting the suicide,
07:24for 30 to 45 minutes with his father.
07:27And after that,
07:29only the father is saying that
07:30he has given castics.
07:32That's why you are demanding it.
07:35You are directly linking Sahil's tragic death by suicide to alleged castist remarks passed by the
07:45professor. But as I said, this is the subject of an inquiry.
07:48The question is, all of this will come out in an inquiry.
07:51Whether he was using AI tools during an exam,
07:53how did a mobile reach?
07:54All this is an inquiry.
07:56The question is, it's undertaking a cast turn.
07:59Tejas, you're joining us.
08:00You're also one of the protesting students at the moment.
08:02Are all the students, in a way, who are protesting, making this a battle about caste?
08:09There have been tragic suicides in IIT Bombay 3 this year.
08:13I'm putting up some numbers at this moment.
08:15Just look at those numbers of the number of suicides that have taken place in IITs all over.
08:20But in Mumbai alone, there have been three.
08:22But now it is taking a caste turn.
08:24It's becoming a caste battle.
08:25Is that what you want?
08:26Is that the reason why you're protesting?
08:31See, firstly, to address Professor, we should follow this process.
08:37IIT Bombay is a process to deal with if students are caught cheating in their examination.
08:44Okay.
08:46What is the procedure?
08:47If you have a mark sheet, your exam sheet will be taken from you.
08:51A blank mark sheet, an answer sheet will be given to you.
08:55You will be allowed to complete the examination.
08:57And within three days, a committee will be constituted.
09:01And upon that search, what do you mean?
09:04Inquiry, according to your findings, action will be taken from you.
09:10Why was that process not followed?
09:13And if we want to give statistics so much importance,
09:16we want to give students in 2016-2012, 120 students will be taken from you.
09:21I mean, suicide will be taken from you.
09:23But unnatural deaths.
09:24Of which SC and ST are twice more likely.
09:29And of which, thrice they are more likely to be younger than other categories.
09:34Look, this is what we understand.
09:37Now, the point is not that it has cheated or not.
09:41Of course, we are not pro-cheating.
09:43Don't get me wrong.
09:45The point is not that it has cheated or not.
09:47The point is that you have to follow your prescribed guidelines and processes and guidelines.
10:03I am aware that I will be questioned that you are a student of IIT Bombay.
10:11So, why do you want to give them a voice?
10:13Or why do you want to give them a voice?
10:15Or why do you want to give them a voice?
10:16Fundamentally, the question is this.
10:18We are fed up by experiencing paternal relation with every single institution that we are following.
10:28Okay?
10:29You have sent an independent inquiry.
10:32What do you mean by the professor or the student affairs of the ex-deen?
10:38No, no.
10:40The point is even, sir, the universe…
10:45No, no, one minute.
10:46The university is ready to hold an independent inquiry.
10:48The question is already, the matter has taken whether you like it or not.
10:52The parents have gone under the SCST Act.
10:55And I want to bring in Suraj Yengde at this point.
10:58Because Suraj Yengde, you heard what Sudindra Kulkarni is saying.
11:02Bringing in the SCST Act at this moment, because the student who tragically committed
11:08death by suicide is from the SC community, is that prima facie a misuse of the act?
11:14Because then you're creating a situation where the bill, where the individual concern, in this
11:20case a professor, is being targeted for alleged carous remarks he made, of which there is no
11:25proof yet.
11:26But it's already become a case of SCST atrocities.
11:32Thank you, Rajiv, for holding this debate.
11:36Misuse is a slightly strong word, given that the incident is very fresh.
11:41And as you and as the committee is deciding on the fact findings, we will have to wait on that.
11:47Now, you see, one of the interesting incidents, when you look at statistics, you know, in 2006 to
11:512026, 176 suicides have occurred across IITs, you know, in the last five years, 74.
11:59And if you look at the statistics of SCST, it's twice as much.
12:03So it says something more about how institutions are unfavorable and not really a space for a
12:09SCST student to thrive.
12:11And we know how that casteism operates throughout the education system.
12:14Now, for a second, let's remove a caste angle and observe.
12:17Now, you and me, Rajiv, we have studied in India, we have studied overseas, and we see how the
12:22academic culture is so diverse and variant, in the sense that in India, it's the subordination
12:29of the student class towards the professorial class.
12:33And the students are meant to be the devotees of sorts where the professors exercise an insurmountable
12:40amount of dominance over students in their everyday affairs.
12:45Now, we look at that, and then we compare that with this gangs of professors who ganged up at IIT
12:51to just back up, even though the committee is yet to form, that we don't have a fact finding yet.
12:56But this unofficial subcommittee of IIT professors who have never had elections have suddenly announced
13:03that they stand behind an alleged professor.
13:05Now, this is really a shameful act.
13:07What they ought to do is we wait for a fact finding committee to say, but we stand with our
13:13students
13:13because our students are someone who we are here to cater to.
13:17We are not here to hobnob each other and look around in this sense.
13:20Now, in this case, if we observe Sahil's mom and their incidents, there has been as many also
13:27general category students who have died by suicide. So it really explains to us how horrific institutions
13:33like IIT and the so-called Institutes of Eminence are really incapable. And that's why they need humanity
13:39and humanities in them. You don't want to produce another logging machine in the form of human who's
13:45going to go out and write codes and make money. You really need human beings to come out of that.
13:50And more important fact is when the professor shouted at Sahil, there's something that transpired
13:59in the two hours before Sahil took his unfortunate life. And we don't know that. And if the parents
14:04are coming up with certain evidence, we really need to bring to fore. However, the society consensus,
14:10like Mr. Kulkarni here, really comes out against this whole horrific death of a student,
14:18and make it an issue about atrocity and its inefficiency. So we really look at issues where
14:22we should be holding an entire institute accountable. 171 beautiful, talented lives have
14:30been lost at IITs. It really tells us of that nearly half percentage are from SCST. So certainly statistics
14:38tell us something. And before we jump over the fire, let us assess ourselves as to why have we not
14:44created a mechanism and system that really protects, promotes, and upholds the independence and values
14:50of students. Now about cheating, that's a nefarious issue. Does only one person cheat? Does only SC or ST
14:56cheat? Students cheat? And we don't know yet what is really occurring and what has transpired. We really
15:01need to examine these Dronacharyas or occupying various pollutants of course.
15:07Suraj, the same arguments that you're making can easily be made by the other side. You are also
15:13prejudging the issue in a way. You've also decided that the concerned individual has been targeted
15:18because, possibly because of his caste identity. That's the problem. You see, everyone is prejudging it
15:25without a proper inquiry. But I want to bring in at this... No, no, no. You are saying there is
15:31institutionalized caste discrimination in IITs. You have made a very serious allegation that there is
15:36institutionalized caste discrimination in IITs. And therefore, in some way, you're linking that to
15:42these suicides. Professor Raghu Murtu Gude, but the point is, yes, figures do show a disproportionate
15:49number of children from potentially underprivileged backgrounds or caste backgrounds who are in a way
15:55complaining about discrimination on the campuses. Do you go along with this as someone who is an
16:00alumnus of IIT Bombay and has taught in IITs? Is there any caste discrimination in our IITs?
16:08Well, that's a kind of a curious question. But we are dealing with one fact, and the fact is
16:15tragic that the student has killed himself. The second one was that he's caught, he was caught
16:21cheating, which is not largely being disputed. Then everything else is about, you know, waiting for
16:27the inquiry and whether the faculty are supporting the faculty who's suspended the dean or students
16:35are supporting something else. There is a trust issue. So the trust itself is in your question,
16:42whether there is a discrimination, there is a systemic issue. These SESC students are put
16:48in an environment, maybe they are not well prepared, maybe they are not getting enough help. So entire
16:55inquiry has to focus on all aspects of this problem, keeping in mind that it's the parents who are
17:02really waiting for, you know, in their mind, some justice, because they have some sense of what went
17:09wrong. And the institute is saying something, the students are perceiving something. So it's a tragic
17:14situation. So instead of jumping around, making allegations, systemic bias on this side or that
17:21side, we need to understand this is an institute with tremendous reputation, my alma mater. I'm very
17:28proud of it. Tremendous research. Times have changed since I was a student. That time it was not so crowded.
17:35Rooms were literally single rooms. Now they are shared rooms. And the number of students has gone
17:41up tremendously. So what are the factors that are changing over time? How is the competitiveness
17:47and the market and the social media? How are they all acting together to create a pressure cooker
17:54environment? Is IIT really special in terms of the number of suicides? This is a tough question,
18:00but ultimately we have to see, compare to other situations where how special are we? Are we really
18:09promoting suicide? Are we really being callous and not caring about it? I see lots of programs being set
18:17up for helping students' well-being and so on. So I think we need to calm down and wait for
18:23the inquiry to
18:24happen and then make systemic changes. If there are faults and attributions, they will come out. So we
18:32need to build trust. Right now, there is a serious lack of trust between students and faculty with the
18:38administration and so on. So we need to just wait.
18:45You need to just wait. And that's a message Sudhirna Khulkarni in conclusion I want to take to you. You've
18:51heard Suraj Yengde suggesting that there is institutionalized discrimination on caste basis in IITs.
18:57It doesn't necessarily mean that Sahil's death was because he belonged to a particular caste,
19:02but it has triggered something. Should there not be a clear, transparent inquiry, not just into this
19:08issue, but whether there is institutionalized discrimination in our IITs, supposedly the pride of
19:15this country? Rajdeep, I repeat, there must be absolutely impartial investigation and those guilty must
19:28face punishment. But I take strong objection to what Suraj Yengde has said that there is institutionalized
19:39discrimination, caste discrimination at IIT Bombay and by implication he probably means in all IITs and
19:50all institutions of higher learning in India. This is not just tarnishing the image of IITs,
19:57it's tarnishing the image of India to say that India stands on institutionalized discrimination
20:06against a certain community everywhere, in educational institutions and in society at large.
20:17Second point, as recently as in August this year…
20:21Can I get Suraj to… No, no, no, I just want to make one more point.
20:25Yes, go ahead, complete. As recently as August this year, the Supreme Court held that cases of
20:35casteist remarks cannot be entertained only on the base of allegations that something was said
20:43privately. It has to be in public domain and it has to be seen and heard. Nothing of this kind
20:52has been
20:53established so far against Professor Surinara and Dula. But already the SCSC Act has been invoked against him
21:03and we know that there are thousands of cases where this act is being invoked. Innocent people are being harassed.
21:13It is also, let me be very blunt, in many cases it is used as a source of extortion, especially
21:22in rural areas. If you want to have objective investigation on what is happening in our society…
21:29Can I stop you? Yes, certainly. Can I stop you now? Can I stop you? I think you made your
21:37point but Suraj needs to respond. Suraj, the moment you said there is institutionalized caste discrimination in our IITs that
21:44has triggered
21:45the likes of the likes of Sudirindra Kulkarni to say that it is deeply unacceptable. He says this is damaging
21:51the reputation of IITs. According to him, it's not based on reality on the ground. Your final response, Suraj?
22:00Sudirindra Kulkarni, if he was Sudirindra Engde, probably he would have agreed with me. That's the kind of difference.
22:06And again, let me reiterate what I was saying. I am not saying that we are talking about with the
22:14final conclusion evidence. Prima facie, whatever it is, out, is referring to the statistical knowledge we have.
22:20I am saying it's not just Sahil. There are also general category students who have committed suicide. And if you
22:27look at the record, nearly half of them are from SCST. Certainly any logical deduction would convey to us that
22:36these are nothing but apprehensions of institutionalized casteism that works.
22:42And news for all of you, I also studied in India. I have studied my undergraduates and my masters while
22:49being in India. And I know how the system operates. And I was not at these elite schools. I was
22:54in very marginalized district schools where you see this, again, much on your face.
23:00And if this is reflected as tarnishing the image of India, India collectively should be ashamed of itself for seeing
23:08the death of its precious people who need more protection and more power as opposed to coming here and running
23:14them out.
23:18I'm going to leave it there. I'm going to leave it there. I've heard all sides. As I said, this
23:22is an extremely sensitive matter, deserves that sensitivity, deserves a proper inquiry, possibly not just into the tragic death of
23:29Sahil, but across the board as to suicides in IITs.
23:33It needs a proper, fair, transparent inquiry and the trust deficit that Professor earlier spoke about needs to be restored.
23:42IIT Bombay has been seen over the years as the pride of India, producing some of our finest alumni.
23:47The last thing we want is the kind of ugly confrontation that we are now seeing on the campuses of
23:54IIT.
23:54Thank you all very much to my guests for joining me on my Talking Point tonight.
Comments