- 22 minutes ago
This special broadcast reports on key national developments, beginning with the aftermath of the death by suicide of IIT Bombay undergraduate student Sahil Wakhode. The incident, which occurred after the student was allegedly caught using a mobile phone and an artificial intelligence tool during an examination, led to an FIR under the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act against Professor Suryanarayan Dula and his subsequent removal from an administrative dean post. The bulletin examines student protests, campus reactions, and discussions surrounding institutional protocols and student welfare across premier technical institutes. The programme also details the Special Intensive Revision of Delhi's electoral rolls, where 47.5 lakh names out of 1.45 crore voters were deleted from the draft list and over 31 lakh discrepancy notices were issued to citizens, Union ministers, and judicial figures, drawing criticism from former Election Commissioner Ashok Lavasa. Additionally, the report covers a mob assault on two school students in Jamui, Bihar, and highlights Suchika Tariyal winning India's first bronze medal in mixed martial arts at the Asian Games.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination, news,
00:04newsmakers, talking points, the big talking point tonight, the IIT student suicide in Bombay
00:11that's rocked IIT campuses across the country. Was there a caste bias as alleged? The faculty
00:19is rallying behind the IIT professor. IIT is split wide open, our special talking point tonight.
00:25Also, Ashok Lavasa, former election commissioner, tells us about the SIR mess. What is the solution
00:33as lakhs of Indians find notices being served on them? But first, the big story that's breaking
00:39at the moment, India's IITs have been split wide open like never before. The prestigious institutes
00:46are now rocking over the suicide of a Mumbai student. Remember the suicide of a young Mumbai
00:55student has now led to the removal of a professor from the dean post amidst allegations of caste
01:03discrimination by the dead student's parents. Now the IIT Madras faculty has come out in support
01:10of the professor who they say is being unfairly targeted. Faculty members across the IITs in
01:17Madras have now claimed that the IIT system is entrusted with upholding the integrity of examination.
01:26The students in this case was allegedly caught with an AI tool and therefore it is unfair to resort to
01:34this kind of a vilification of a professor without a proper inquiry. Remember this is all coming against the
01:42backdrop of a series of student suicides on campus, some by hanging in the IIT Mumbai administration,
01:49which is now removing ceiling fans from hostel rooms and replacing them with wall mounted fans.
01:57But all of this also is coming against the backdrop of the family of the young student Sahil Wakode,
02:03alleging caste discrimination, filing a case under the SCST Act against the professor. So clearly what was seen as a
02:11case of death by suicide has now acquired a caste angle. Let's take a look at the big story that
02:19is now
02:20racking IIT campuses across the country. Take a look.
02:28A 20-year-old IIT Bombay student was found dead and now questions are mounting. Sahil Wakode's death has
02:38triggered protests, police action and a fresh controversy at one of India's premier institutions.
02:44In a major development, IIT Bombay has taken a U-turn and apologised for its earlier statement on Sahil's death.
02:52IIT Bombay admits Sahil's death is still under probe and events before his death should not have been stated as
02:58facts.
03:01Earlier, IIT Bombay had maintained that no discipline reaction was initiated against Sahil
03:06after he was caught using phone and AI during examination. The institute had said that he was
03:12counselled and assured that the incident would not affect his academic career.
03:17But the controversy is far from over. Students intensified their protests outside the campus on
03:23Monday demanding answers and accountability. Several protesters were detained by the police.
03:29The immediate demand is resignation. We need all the professors involved.
03:34The director is Dean Hammond's resignation. We need accountability that you have done it.
03:40What has done it that the three Dalit students have done it in the last year? What is this arrangement?
03:46What is this arrangement? What is this arrangement? What is this arrangement? What is this arrangement?
03:57Amid the outreach, IIT Bombay removed Professor Suryanarayan Dulla as Dean. He was reportedly the
04:03professor who informed institute authorities after the alleged examination malpractice.
04:09Mumbai police. Mumbai police have now booked the professor in an abetment to suicide case.
04:14The BNS and SCST Act have also been invoked following a complaint by Sahil's parents.
04:20Sahil's family has alleged that he was tortured and killed.
04:24Sahil's family has alleged that he was tortured and killed in an abetment to suicide.
04:44But some students contradict.
05:10Sahil, a second-year BTEC student, was found dead in his hostel room on September 18,
05:15hours after he was allegedly caught using a mobile phone during an examination.
05:20A young life lost, a family demanding justice, and an institution facing difficult questions.
05:26The probe continues.
05:28With Mustafa Sheikh in Mumbai, Bureau Report, India Today.
05:36So let's raise the big questions at the moment. Are allegations of caste bias in a case like this
05:42is premature? Should students wait for a probe report? How to check IIT campus suicides?
05:49How to ensure justice in cases like this, both for the faculty and for the students?
05:56Those are some of the big questions we are raising today. Let's go straight to our talking point.
06:03Okay, joining us now then is a very special panel. I'm joined by Professor Raghu Murthugudeh,
06:09alumnus of IIT Bombay, visiting Professor IIT Kanpur. Also joining me Sudindra Kulkarni,
06:16another noted alumni of IIT Bombay, Dr. Suraj Yangdeh, author of Caste, A Global Story, University of Pennsylvania.
06:23Aamir Kazi is All India Students Federation, Mumbai, President Students of Mumbai University.
06:29And Tejas, one of the protesting law students also, he's joining me from Mumbai. Good to have
06:35all of you on the show. Sudindra Kulkarni, I want to come to you first because you've just put out
06:40appeal to IIT and all IITans to come together to ensure that the professor is not suspended.
06:47You're claiming he is innocent till proven guilty and saying that this is a misuse of the atrocities
06:53act of SCSTs. Do you want to amplify what you're trying to say, Mr. Kulkarni? Are you saying that
07:00the student should not be protesting and the dean should not be suspended over this alleged death by suicide?
07:09Rajdeep, I participate in this debate as a stakeholder because I am an alumnus of IIT Bombay.
07:22I begin by expressing my deepest condolences to the family of Sahil Wakode, the undergraduate student
07:33who tragically committed suicide. If anyone has the right to know why he committed suicide, it is
07:46his parents, it is his family. And therefore, there must be an impartial investigation
07:57to know the circumstances that led to his suicide. Every student who commits suicide anywhere in India
08:09is a matter of profound pain and concern for everyone. But for me, it's a source of greater pain
08:20because it has happened in my alma mater.
08:28At the same time, I must say that…
08:31You know, from what you are saying very clearly…
08:34Hello?
08:37Yeah, go ahead.
08:38Yeah.
08:39Go ahead, go ahead, please.
08:40At the same time, I am anguished by the fact that Professor Surya Narayan
08:47Dula, an eminent academic, has been unfairly targeted even before the investigation has begun.
09:01The Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribe Act, so-called Atrocity Act, has already been invoked against him
09:10and which we all know has very stringent provisions.
09:16Anyone who faces this charge is not only humiliated but has to prove his innocence.
09:27You know, the normal principle of justice is that you are innocent until proven guilty,
09:33but here you are proven guilty and now you prove your innocence.
09:39And in all such cases, especially under this act, process itself is punishment.
09:48We all know that the conviction rate in cases of SCSC Act is less than one-third, less than 133
09:58percent.
09:58And it takes a long time. Now, when an eminent academic faces this charge,
10:09and if the provisions are actually enforced, tell me what will the entire faculty of IIT Bombay,
10:19not only IIT Bombay, all IITs and other institutions of higher learning, what will they think?
10:27This is a, the most, I can only call it a law that promotes reverse casteism.
10:36He is not, his guilt is not established, but the punishment has already begun.
10:43How can we justify this?
10:50Okay, let me, let, let, let me stop you for a moment, because I want to hear other voices at
10:55this moment.
10:56I want to go to you, Mr. Kazi, because you're heading this, you know, Kazi, you're heading this student movement
11:03that has started Ms. Aamir Kazi,
11:05which is trying to put pressure on IIT to suspend the professor. He's already been removed as the Dean for
11:12Administrative Affairs.
11:13As Sudindra Kulkarni is saying, you're prejudging guilt. I mean, whatever reports initially came seem to suggest that the professor
11:20had allegedly,
11:21I use the word allegedly, seen the student using an AI tool chat GPT during his examinations.
11:28Now, even before any inquiry is conducted, you want the professor out of the university. Is that fair?
11:35Is that a complete reversal of the basic principle of criminal justice, innocent till proven guilty?
11:43Mr. Kazi?
11:44Mr. Kazi, I want to say, yes, I want to say, yes, I want to say, yes, I want to
11:48say, yes, I want to say that we should listen to the professor of the university.
11:52Mr. Kazi Ladies and founder, Mr. Kazi, I want to say, yes, he just returned to our director,
12:49It has an history.
12:51Or it is paid by his father because Sahil has spoke to his father before attempting the suicide for 30
13:01to 45 minutes with his father.
13:04And after that, only the father is saying that Kusto Kastis has been done.
13:08That's not there.
13:10No, no.
13:11You're directly linking Sahil's tragic death by suicide to allege Kastis' remarks passed by the
13:21professor.
13:22But as I said, this is the subject of an inquiry.
13:24The question is, all of this will come out in an inquiry, whether he was using AI tools during an
13:29exam,
13:29how did a mobile reach?
13:30All this is an inquiry.
13:32The question is, it's undertaking a caste turn.
13:35Tejas, you're joining us.
13:36You're also one of the protesting students at the moment.
13:38Are all the students, in a way, who are protesting, making this a battle about caste?
13:45There have been tragic suicides in IIT Bombay 3 this year.
13:49I'm putting up some numbers at this moment.
13:51Just look at those numbers of the number of suicides that have taken place in IITs all over.
13:56But in Mumbai alone, there have been three.
13:58But now it is taking a caste turn.
14:00It's becoming a caste battle.
14:01Is that what you want?
14:02Is that the reason why you're protesting?
14:08See, firstly, to address professor, we should follow this process.
14:13IIT Bombay itself is a process to deal with if students are caught cheating in their examination.
14:20Okay.
14:22What procedure is that you have a mark sheet, your exam sheet will be taken from you.
14:27A blank mark sheet, an answer sheet will be taken from you.
14:30You will be allowed to complete the examination.
14:33And within three days, a committee will be constituted.
14:37And upon that search, what do you mean?
14:40Inquiry of findings, you will be taken from your findings.
14:46Why was that process not followed?
14:49And if we want to give statistics as much as important.
14:53In 2016-2020, there will be 120 students.
14:57I mean, it will be suicide.
14:58But it will be unnatural.
14:59It will be unnatural.
15:00Of which, SC and HD are twice more likely.
15:05And of which, thrice they are more likely to be younger than other categories.
15:10Look, we are going to understand this.
15:13Now, the point is that it cheated or not.
15:16Okay.
15:17Not of course, we are not pro-cheating.
15:19Don't get me wrong.
15:21The point is that it cheated or not.
15:22The point is that you are going to follow your prescribed guidelines and processes and guidelines and processes.
15:30The point is that we are trying to give it to the castes.
15:33We are trying to sell students, to make our interests as such.
15:36That is not our interest, as such, that it is to castes.
15:39It is to make our interest as such.
15:54We are fed up by experiencing paternal relation
16:01with every single institution that we are following.
16:04You have sent an independent inquiry.
16:08If you say what to the professor,
16:11the student affairs of the ex-deen,
16:13the point is even, sir,
16:19the university is ready to hold an independent inquiry.
16:24The question is already, the matter has taken,
16:27whether you like it or not,
16:28the parents have gone under the SCST Act.
16:31And I want to bring in Suraj Yengde at this point,
16:34because Suraj Yengde, you heard what Sudhindra Kulkarni is saying,
16:38bringing in the SCST Act at this moment,
16:41because the student who tragically committed death by suicide
16:45is from the SC community,
16:48is that prima facie a misuse of the Act?
16:50Because then you are creating a situation
16:53where the individual concerned, in this case a professor,
16:57is being targeted for alleged castist remarks he made,
17:01of which there is no proof yet.
17:02But it's already become a case of SCST atrocities.
17:08Thank you, Rajiv, for holding this debate.
17:12Misuse is a slightly strong word,
17:14given that the incident is very fresh,
17:17and as you and as the committee is deciding
17:20about on the fact findings,
17:21we will have to wait on that.
17:23Now, you see, one of the interesting incidents,
17:25when you look at statistics,
17:26you know, in 2006 to 2026,
17:30176 students have occurred across IITs,
17:33you know, in the last five years, 74.
17:35And if you look at the statistics of SCST,
17:38it's twice as much.
17:39So it says something more about how institutions
17:41are unfavorable and not really a space
17:44for a SCST student to thrive.
17:47And we know how that casteism operates
17:49throughout the education system.
17:50Now, for a second, let's remove a caste angle
17:52and observe.
17:53Now, you and me, Rajiv, we have studied in India,
17:56I've studied overseas, and we see how the academic culture
17:59is so diverse and variant,
18:01in the sense that in India,
18:03it's the subordination of the student class
18:07towards the professorial class.
18:09And the students are meant to be the devotees of sorts,
18:13where the professors exercise
18:14an insurmountable amount of dominance
18:17over students in their everyday affairs.
18:21Now, we look at that, and then we compare that
18:24with this gang of professors,
18:26who ganged up at IIT to just back up,
18:28even though the committee is yet to form,
18:31we don't have a fact-finding yet,
18:32but this unofficial, some committee of IIT professors
18:36who have never had elections
18:37have suddenly announced that they stand
18:39behind an alleged professor.
18:41Now, this is really a shameful act.
18:43What they ought to do is,
18:44we wait for a fact-finding committee to say,
18:48but we stand with our students,
18:50because our students are someone
18:51who we are here to cater to.
18:53We are not here to hobnob each other
18:54and then look around in this sense.
18:56Now, in this case,
18:57if we observe Sahil's mom and their incidents,
19:01there has been as many also general category students
19:04who have died by suicide.
19:05So this really explains to us
19:07how horrific institutions like IIT
19:10and the so-called Institutes of Eminence
19:12are really incapable,
19:13and that's why they need humanity
19:15and humanities in them.
19:17You don't want to produce another logging machine
19:20in the form of human who's going to go out,
19:22write codes, and make money.
19:23You really need human beings to come out of that.
19:26And more important fact is,
19:28when the professor shouted at Sahil,
19:33there's something that transpired in the two hours
19:35before Sahil took his unfortunate life.
19:38And we don't know that.
19:39And if the parents are coming up with certain evidence,
19:42we really need to bring to fore.
19:44However, the society consensus,
19:46like Mr. Kulkarni here,
19:49really comes out against this whole horrific death of a student
19:54and make it an issue about atrocity and its inefficiency.
19:57So we really look at issues
19:58where we should be holding an entire institute accountable.
20:03171 beautiful, talented lives have been lost at IITs.
20:07It really tells us of that nearly half percentage are from SCST.
20:13So certainly statistics tell us something.
20:15And before we jump over the fire,
20:17let us assess ourselves as to why have we not created a mechanism
20:21and system that really protects, promotes,
20:24and upholds the independence and values of students.
20:27Now, how about cheating?
20:28That's a nefarious issue.
20:29Does only one person cheat?
20:31Does only SC or ST cheat?
20:33Students cheat?
20:34And we don't know yet what has really occurring
20:36and what has transpired.
20:37We really need to examine these Dronacharyas
20:39or occupy various positions of course.
20:43Suraj, the same arguments that you're making
20:47can easily be made by the other side.
20:49You are also prejudging the issue in a way.
20:51You've also decided that the concerned individual
20:53has been targeted because,
20:55possibly because of his caste identity.
20:58That's the problem.
20:59You see, everyone is prejudging it without a proper inquiry.
21:02But I want to bring in at this...
21:04No, no, no.
21:05You are saying there is institutionalized caste discrimination in IITs.
21:10You have made a very serious allegation
21:11that there is institutionalized caste discrimination in IITs.
21:15And therefore, in some way,
21:17you are linking that to these suicides.
21:19Professor Raghu Murthu Gude,
21:21but the point is, yes,
21:23figures do show a disproportionate number of children
21:26from potentially underprivileged backgrounds
21:28or caste backgrounds
21:29who are, in a way,
21:31complaining about discrimination on the campuses.
21:34Do you go along with this
21:35as someone who is an alumnus of IIT Bombay
21:38and has taught in IITs?
21:40Is there any caste discrimination in our IITs?
21:44Well, that's a kind of a curious question.
21:48But we are dealing with one fact,
21:50and the fact is tragic
21:52that the student has killed himself.
21:53The second one was that he was caught cheating,
21:57which is not largely being disputed.
22:00Then everything else is about, you know,
22:03waiting for the inquiry
22:04and whether the faculty are supporting
22:07the faculty who's suspended the dean
22:10or students are supporting something else.
22:13There is a trust issue.
22:15So the trust itself is in your question
22:18whether there is a discrimination,
22:19there is a systemic issue.
22:22These SESC students are put in an environment.
22:25Maybe they are not well prepared.
22:28Maybe they are not getting enough help.
22:30So entire inquiry has to focus
22:32on all aspects of this problem,
22:35keeping in mind that it's the parents
22:37who are really waiting for,
22:39you know, in their mind,
22:41some justice
22:41because they have some sense
22:43of what went wrong.
22:45And the institute is saying something.
22:47The students are perceiving something.
22:49So it's a tragic situation.
22:51So instead of jumping around,
22:53making allegations,
22:55systemic bias on this side or that side,
22:58we need to understand
22:59this is an institute with tremendous reputation.
23:02My alma mater, I'm very proud of it.
23:05Tremendous research.
23:06Times have changed since I was a student.
23:09That time it was not so crowded.
23:11Rooms were literally single rooms.
23:13Now they are shared rooms.
23:15And the number of students
23:16has gone up tremendously.
23:17So what are the factors
23:19that are changing over time?
23:21How is the competitiveness
23:23and the market
23:24and the social media,
23:25how are they all acting together
23:28to create a pressure cooker environment?
23:31Is IIT really special
23:33in terms of the number of suicides?
23:35This is a tough question,
23:36but ultimately we have to see,
23:39compare to other situations
23:41where how special are we?
23:44Are we really promoting suicide?
23:47Are we really being callous
23:49and not caring about it?
23:51I see lots of programs being set up
23:53for helping students' well-being and so on.
23:57So I think we need to calm down
23:58and wait for the inquiry to happen
24:01and then make systemic changes.
24:03If there are faults and attributions,
24:07they will come out.
24:08So we need to build trust.
24:10Right now there is a serious lack of trust
24:12between students and faculty,
24:14with the administration and so on.
24:16So we need to just wait.
24:21You need to just wait.
24:22And that's a message
24:24Sudhirna Kulkarni in conclusion
24:25I want to take to you.
24:26You've heard Suraj Yangde
24:28suggesting that there is
24:29institutionalized discrimination
24:30on caste basis in IITs.
24:33It doesn't necessarily mean
24:35that Sahil's death
24:36was because he belonged
24:37to a particular caste,
24:38but it has triggered something.
24:39Should there not be
24:41a clear, transparent inquiry,
24:43not just into this issue,
24:44but whether there is
24:45institutionalized discrimination
24:47in our IITs,
24:49supposedly the pride of this country?
24:52Rajdeep, I repeat,
24:55there must be
24:56absolutely impartial investigation
25:00and those guilty
25:03must face punishment.
25:07But I take strong objection
25:09to what Suraj Yangde has said
25:13that there is institutionalized
25:15discrimination,
25:17caste discrimination
25:18at IIT Bombay
25:20and by implication
25:23he probably means
25:25in all IITs
25:26and all institutions
25:28of higher learning in India.
25:30This is not just
25:31tarnishing the image of IITs,
25:34it's tarnishing the image of India
25:36to say that India
25:38stands on institutionalized discrimination
25:42against a certain community
25:44everywhere
25:46in educational institutions
25:48and in society at large.
25:51That's right.
25:53Second point,
25:54as recently as in August this year...
25:57Can I get Suraj to...
25:57No, no, can I get Suraj to...
25:59No, no, no,
26:00I just want to make one more point.
26:01Yes, go ahead, complete.
26:02As recently as August this year,
26:06the Supreme Court held
26:08that cases of casteist remarks
26:14cannot be entertained
26:16only on the base of allegations
26:18that something was said privately.
26:21It has to be in public domain
26:23and it has to be seen and heard.
26:26Nothing of this kind
26:28has been established so far
26:30against Professor Surinara and Dula.
26:33But already the SCSC Act
26:38has been invoked against him
26:39and we know that there are thousands of cases
26:43where this Act is being invoked.
26:47Innocent people are being harassed.
26:50It is also, let me be very blunt,
26:53in many cases it is used
26:55as a source of extortion,
26:58especially in rural areas.
26:59If you want to have
27:02objective investigation
27:03on what is happening in our society...
27:05Can I stop you?
27:07Yes, certainly.
27:10Can I stop you now?
27:11Can I stop you?
27:12I think you made your point
27:13but Suraj needs to respond.
27:15Suraj, the moment you said
27:16there's institutionalized caste discrimination
27:19in our IITs
27:20that has triggered
27:21the likes of Sudirindra Kulkarni
27:23to say that is deeply unacceptable.
27:25He says this is damaging
27:27the reputation of IITs.
27:29According to him,
27:30it's not based on reality on the ground.
27:32Your final response, Suraj.
27:35Sudirindra Kulkarni,
27:37if he was Sudirindra Engde,
27:39probably he would have agreed with me.
27:41That's the kind of difference.
27:42And again, let me reiterate
27:45what I was saying.
27:46I am not saying
27:47that we are talking about
27:50with the final conclusion of the evidence.
27:51Prima facie, whatever it is, out,
27:53is referring to the statistical knowledge we have.
27:56I am saying it's not just Sahil.
27:58There are also general category students
28:00who have committed suicide.
28:02And if we look at the record,
28:05nearly half of them are from SCST.
28:07Certainly any logical deduction
28:10would convey to us
28:11that these are nothing
28:13but apprehensions
28:15of institutionalized casteism
28:17that works.
28:18And news for all of you,
28:20I also studied in India.
28:22I have studied
28:22my undergraduates
28:24and my masters
28:25while being in India.
28:26And I know
28:27how the system operates.
28:28And I was not
28:28at these elite schools.
28:30I was in very
28:31marginalized district schools
28:33where you see this,
28:34again,
28:34much on your face.
28:36And if this is reflected
28:38as tarnishing the image of India,
28:40India collectively
28:41should be ashamed of itself
28:43for seeing the death
28:45of its precious people
28:46who need more protection
28:47and more power
28:48as opposed to coming here
28:49and running them out.
28:54I am going to leave it there.
28:56I have heard all sides.
28:57As I said,
28:57this is an extremely sensitive matter.
28:59Deserves that sensitivity.
29:01Deserves a proper inquiry.
29:02Possibly not just
29:04into the tragic death of Sahil,
29:06but across the board
29:07as to suicides in IITs.
29:10It needs a proper,
29:11fair, transparent inquiry.
29:13And the trust deficit
29:14that Professor earlier spoke about
29:16needs to be restored.
29:18IIT Bombay has been seen
29:19over the years
29:20as the pride of India,
29:21producing some of our
29:22finest alumni.
29:23The last thing we want
29:25is the kind of ugly confrontation
29:26that we are now seeing
29:28on the campuses of IIT.
29:30Thank you all very much
29:31to my guests.
29:32for joining me
29:33on my talking point tonight.
29:38Let's turn from there
29:39to the big controversy
29:40of the day
29:41because with every passing day,
29:42the special intensive revision
29:44exercise in the national capital
29:46is throwing an unusual list
29:49of names
29:49who suddenly find themselves
29:51under scrutiny.
29:52Union ministers,
29:53former chief ministers,
29:55senior bureaucrats,
29:56judges, election officials,
29:58all figure among
29:59among the 33 lakh people
30:00who have been issued notices
30:02whose names
30:03are not on the electoral rolls.
30:06The EC claims
30:06that being issued notices
30:10does not mean
30:10that your name
30:11will be deleted.
30:12But the fact is
30:13more than half
30:14half of Delhi's voters
30:16either find themselves
30:18deleted
30:18or their names
30:20not on the electoral rolls.
30:22Why?
30:22Take a look
30:23at this detailed report.
30:39The special intensive revision
30:41of Delhi's electoral rolls
30:43has put more than half
30:44the city's voters
30:45under the scanner.
30:49Of the 1.45 pro voters,
30:5247.5 lakh
30:53are deleted
30:54from the draft roll
30:55under the absent,
30:57shifted,
30:57dead
30:58or duplicate category.
31:01Now comes the kicker.
31:03Another 33.13 lakh
31:05are flagged
31:06for discrepancies.
31:09Of these,
31:1019.33 lakh
31:12are marked
31:12under logical discrepancies.
31:1413.80 lakh
31:16are classified
31:17as not mapped
31:18with 2002 roll.
31:19The Delhi Chief
31:20Electoral Officer says
31:2131,63,930 notices
31:25were generated
31:26by September 19.
31:29Now the names
31:30appearing in the list
31:31are drawing attention.
31:33Delhi Chief Minister
31:35Rekha Gupta
31:36Former Delhi Chief Minister
31:38Arvind Kejriwal
31:39and family
31:39External Affairs Minister
31:41S. Jay Shankar
31:42and his wife
31:43Former Deputy Prime Minister
31:45L.K. Advani
31:46Former Delhi Deputy
31:47Chief Minister
31:48Manish Sisodia
31:49Former Vice President
31:51Jagdeep Dhankar
31:52Election Commission
31:53Sukhbir Singh Sandhu
31:54CBI Director
31:56Praveen Sud
31:57Former Army Chief
31:59General
31:59Upendra Divedi
32:00SEBI Chairman
32:01Tuhin Kanta Pandey
32:03and several senior bureaucrats,
32:05former judges,
32:06politicians
32:07and public figures.
32:09If even prominent citizens
32:10are left out,
32:11how does the
32:12armed army cope?
32:32This is a chaotic situation
32:35and the whole thing
32:36has had decided
32:38in the name of
32:38finding
32:39Guz Bhatiyas.
32:40Until today
32:41they haven't told us
32:42how many
32:43Bangladeshi Guz Bhatiyas
32:44have they caught?
32:45Justice Chief
32:46Chief Justice
32:47Chandrasur,
32:48Mr. Advani,
32:50Election Commissioner
32:51Sandhu,
32:53former Vice President,
32:55you name it,
32:56they're all there.
32:57Their names
32:58will get included
32:58in the next one week
32:59for sure.
33:01But that is no big deal.
33:02What about
33:03the common man?
33:04Who is talking
33:05about them?
33:07The Election Commission
33:08says a notice
33:10does not mean
33:10a voter
33:11has been declared
33:12ineligible.
33:14The elector
33:15gets an opportunity
33:16to submit documents.
33:17The electoral
33:18registration officer
33:19examines the documents
33:21and the booth level
33:22officers report
33:23before taking a decision.
33:25The disposal
33:25of notices
33:26is scheduled
33:27to be completed
33:28by October 29.
33:29The final electoral
33:30roll is scheduled
33:31for publication
33:32on November 4.
33:35But there is another
33:36question buried
33:36inside this exercise.
33:38While the voter
33:39is being told
33:40to update,
33:41correct,
33:41explain and produce
33:42documents,
33:43what if the discrepancy
33:45was already
33:45inside the electoral
33:46database?
33:48I have been listed
33:49as someone
33:51whose parental age
33:52is less than 15.
33:54And the detail
33:56when I tried
33:57to sort
33:57from the BLO,
33:59they said
34:00that my father's
34:01age was shown
34:02as zero.
34:03When I corresponded
34:04the actual document
34:05to 2002,
34:07my father's age
34:08clearly shows
34:08as 45,
34:10thereby raising
34:11a question
34:12that at which point
34:13did 45 become
34:15zero
34:15in the ECI data,
34:17thereby leading
34:18to a logical
34:19discrepancy.
34:21Delhi's SIR
34:22is still
34:22a work in progress.
34:24The election commission
34:25says notices
34:26are part of due process,
34:28not a declaration
34:29that anyone
34:30has lost
34:31the right to vote.
34:32But is the process
34:33itself flawed?
34:35Vishriya Chatterjee,
34:36Amit Bharadwaj,
34:38Aishwarya Paliwal
34:38and Sanjay Sharma,
34:40Bureau Report,
34:41India Today.
34:48So how should we see
34:49the SIR controversy now?
34:52Joining me now
34:53is the distinguished
34:54former election commissioner
34:56Ashok Lavasa.
34:57Mr. Lavasa,
34:59you know,
34:59in Delhi alone,
35:0047.5 lakh electors
35:03removed from the draft,
35:05another 33 lakh flag
35:07for discrepancies,
35:08more than 31 lakh
35:10notices generated.
35:12I mean,
35:12this is an extraordinary
35:14scale.
35:14More than 50%
35:16of Delhi's electorate
35:18has either been deleted
35:19or has notices sent.
35:21Make sense of that
35:23for us?
35:25I wish I could,
35:26Rajdeep,
35:27but thanks for having me
35:28on your show.
35:30You know,
35:31I have been trying
35:32to see
35:34what should be
35:35the reaction
35:36to what is being
35:37reported.
35:38When the exercise
35:39started in Bihar
35:41last year,
35:42when I heard
35:44about the exercise,
35:44I was a little
35:45astonished.
35:46When I read the
35:47notification,
35:48I was very surprised.
35:50And then I got
35:51confused what
35:52the intention
35:53behind the exercise
35:54is.
35:55But as it rolled
35:56down,
35:57I think one
35:58got frustrated,
36:00one got annoyed,
36:01angry.
36:02One couldn't make
36:03sense of what
36:03was happening.
36:04What has happened
36:05in Delhi,
36:06actually,
36:07now,
36:07I find is very
36:08amusing.
36:09And it pains
36:11me a lot
36:12that you have
36:14an electoral
36:14roll from
36:15which,
36:16from 1.57
36:18crore,
36:19which it was
36:20before the
36:21SI had started
36:22in Delhi.
36:23It came to
36:251.47.
36:26Then the draft
36:27roll was reduced
36:28to 97.
36:29And now,
36:30there are 32,
36:3133 lakh people,
36:32you say,
36:33who have received
36:33notices.
36:34So what does it
36:36make of the
36:36original roll?
36:38I fail to
36:39understand.
36:40I think the
36:40EC probably
36:41has put in
36:42place an
36:44irrational
36:44procedure,
36:46which is gone
36:47out of control.
36:49And as I have
36:50always said,
36:51once you have
36:52an irrational
36:53procedure,
36:54then it leads
36:55to further
36:56irrationality in
36:57the field.
36:58Either people
36:59are so rigid
37:00in applying
37:01whatever guidelines
37:03they have,
37:04they use no
37:05discretion,
37:05they use no
37:06common sense,
37:07or they act
37:09arbitrarily,
37:10which is what
37:11leads to this
37:12kind of a mess,
37:13if I am allowed
37:14to say that.
37:18You're saying
37:19it's a mess,
37:20but let's be
37:22very clear.
37:22The, you know,
37:24VVIPs will get
37:25back into the
37:26electoral roll,
37:27sir.
37:27Those who are,
37:29you know,
37:30the bureaucrats
37:31and the politicians
37:32and the lawyers
37:33who are off the
37:35roll at the
37:35moment or have
37:36been sent notices,
37:36they will find
37:37a way.
37:38What about the
37:39poor and
37:39marginalized?
37:40Is this system
37:41now going to make
37:42it even more
37:43difficult on the
37:43poor and marginalized
37:44who do not
37:45possibly have the
37:46documents,
37:47who suddenly find
37:48that the onus of
37:49proof is on them
37:50to prove their
37:51citizenship?
37:53Rajdeep,
37:54you're so right.
37:55In fact,
37:55you know,
37:56ever since all
37:56these elite names
37:58have started
37:58appearing,
37:59and I must tell
38:00you, by the way,
38:00that I was also
38:02close to getting
38:03a notice,
38:05but when the
38:06officials contacted
38:08me and I
38:09told them that,
38:10look, why don't
38:10you just delete
38:11my name?
38:12So they said,
38:13no, no, no,
38:14we can't delete
38:15your name.
38:15That will create
38:16a lot of
38:16controversy.
38:18But as we
38:19are seeing that
38:20all kinds of
38:21people are getting
38:22notices.
38:23Now, the point
38:25about all these
38:26elite deletions,
38:28it's actually a
38:29travesty of
38:30justice, because
38:32with all the
38:34spotlight on
38:35these names,
38:36I'm sure all of
38:37them will get
38:37back into the
38:38electoral roll.
38:39But as you
38:40said, who's
38:41going to take
38:42up the cases
38:43of the crores
38:44of people who
38:45have been
38:45deleted and
38:46who have no
38:46recourse, who
38:48are running from
38:49pillar to post,
38:50they don't even
38:51know how to
38:52procure the
38:53documents which
38:53they're being
38:54asked to produce.
38:56So I think
38:57it's very
38:58unfair on
39:00them, and
39:01somewhere I
39:03feel that we
39:04made a mockery
39:05of the whole
39:06system.
39:10So what's the
39:10solution, Mr.
39:13Lavasa?
39:13Is there a
39:13solution?
39:14You see, you
39:15can't reverse the
39:16system now, but
39:17how do you
39:17ensure that at
39:19least we saw
39:19what's happened
39:20in Bengal?
39:21A number of
39:21citizens excluded,
39:23some on logical
39:24discrepancies sent
39:25to tribunals.
39:26There you've got
39:2791% of those
39:29who've gone to
39:30tribunals so far
39:31turning out to be
39:31legitimate citizens.
39:32So what's the
39:34solution?
39:34How do you
39:35ensure that every
39:36citizen has a
39:37right to vote in
39:38every election?
39:41I would feel
39:42that, you know,
39:44the election
39:44commission of
39:45India must come
39:47out very clean
39:48on several
39:50counts, which
39:51will include the
39:53solution that
39:54probably we are
39:55looking for.
39:56First of all, I
39:58think they must
39:59come out and
39:59explain to the
40:01people of India
40:02two things.
40:03One, how many
40:06ineligible people
40:07have they been
40:07able to remove
40:08which they had
40:09intended originally?
40:11We don't know.
40:12The Supreme
40:13Court in its
40:15order on the
40:1627th of May
40:17directed that
40:19all people who
40:21have been removed
40:22because of
40:22suspected
40:23non-citizenship,
40:25their cases
40:26should be
40:27referred to the
40:27Foreigners
40:28Tribunal in
40:29four weeks.
40:30That order was
40:31passed.
40:31It's been
40:32three months.
40:33Do we know
40:34how many cases
40:35have been
40:35referred by the
40:36system to the
40:37Foreigners Tribunal?
40:39No.
40:40So ECI must
40:41explain those
40:41figures.
40:42Number two, I
40:43think, Raj, the
40:44very important
40:44is, you know,
40:46we have the
40:47census operations
40:49which have
40:49started.
40:50And even before
40:51the census, we
40:52have some
40:52projections of the
40:54population which
40:54are available on
40:55an yearly basis.
40:56there is a
40:57world population
40:58atlas.
40:59Now, all
41:01indications are
41:02that the
41:03population of
41:04India, 18
41:05plus, would
41:07be of the
41:08order of
41:09103, 104
41:10crore.
41:11And we
41:12might end up
41:13the SIR with
41:15a figure of
41:16about 88 or
41:1790 crore
41:17voters.
41:19So, will
41:20the Election
41:20Commission
41:21explain whether
41:23the census
41:24figures are
41:24wrong?
41:26Should the
41:26Election
41:27Commission not
41:28come and
41:28explain what
41:30is the EP
41:30ratio that they
41:31have achieved?
41:32Should they
41:33not explain
41:34whether they
41:34are happy
41:35with this EP
41:36ratio which
41:36used to be
41:3798, 99%
41:39earlier and it
41:40has now gone
41:41down to such
41:42a low level?
41:43What is their
41:43reaction to all
41:44this?
41:45So far, I
41:46have not heard
41:47officially from
41:48the Commission
41:49about their
41:51reaction on
41:51this mass
41:52scale deletion.
41:54What do they
41:54think of this
41:55whole deletion
41:56business?
41:57That is one.
41:58But coming to
41:59your point about
42:01what is the
42:01solution?
42:03First of all,
42:04I think for
42:05the chaos that
42:07has been
42:07created, ECI
42:09owes an
42:09apology.
42:12And it
42:13is not too
42:14late to
42:15scrap the
42:16SIR.
42:17and go
42:18back, at
42:19least in
42:19the third
42:20phase, to
42:21the roles
42:22which were
42:22valid before
42:24the SIR
42:24started.
42:27And we
42:28can't go
42:28back on the
42:29first and
42:29second phase
42:30because those
42:31roles have
42:31assumed finality,
42:33elections have
42:34taken place on
42:35the basis of
42:36those roles.
42:37But even in
42:38those cases,
42:39let's say the
42:39case of West
42:40Bengal where you
42:41said 38
42:42lakhs appeals have
42:43been filed.
42:45can we
42:46draw up a
42:46time-bound
42:47calendar and
42:49ensure that
42:50these cases are
42:51disposed of,
42:52say, within a
42:53year?
42:54Because according
42:55to the present
42:56calculation, it's
42:58going to take
42:58something like 12
42:59years for these
43:00cases to be
43:01disposed of.
43:03The third thing
43:04is that all
43:06those people
43:07whose names
43:08have been
43:09deleted earlier,
43:11I think they
43:12should be given
43:13an opportunity
43:14again to come
43:15back into the
43:15system.
43:16And then let's
43:17find an
43:18exception.
43:18Let's find out
43:19what is logical
43:20discrepancy?
43:21Why should that
43:22be a ground for
43:23somebody to lose
43:24his voting
43:25right?
43:25Because a
43:26discrepancy is
43:27not a
43:28disqualification.
43:29If you found
43:30that the
43:30spellings were
43:31wrong or the
43:32ages, there
43:33was some
43:33discordance in
43:34the age, how
43:36does it matter?
43:37If you are 62
43:38and your age is
43:39recorded as 42,
43:41does it mean
43:42that you should
43:43lose your right
43:43to vote?
43:44So we have to
43:46find a simple
43:47way in which
43:49all these people
43:50get back into
43:52the system.
43:53Nobody is
43:53pleading for
43:54those who have
43:56duplicate entries.
43:57Let them be
43:58weeded out.
43:59No issues.
43:59But if people
44:01have shifted from
44:02one place to
44:03another, will
44:05the ECI not
44:06tell us where
44:06these people have
44:07gone?
44:08Whether they
44:09have entered the
44:09electoral role
44:10somewhere else,
44:11or these people
44:13have simply
44:13sort of disappeared
44:15in thin air?
44:20Right.
44:21So what you're
44:22essentially calling
44:23for is transparency.
44:24This exercise, in
44:26your view, has
44:27been way too
44:28opaque, has
44:29been arbitrary,
44:30and as a result,
44:32you've got the
44:32mess that you
44:33find yourself in.
44:34Am I correct?
44:35A quick final
44:36answer, sir.
44:36Yes, you're
44:38right, and I
44:38would also feel
44:39that ECI has
44:42to re-establish
44:43its communication
44:44contact with
44:46the people.
44:47It has to
44:48convince everyone
44:49that they are
44:51interested in
44:51including more
44:52people in the
44:53electoral role.
44:54You know the
44:55kind of mass
44:56anxiety which
44:57has been caused?
44:58Right.
44:59You know the
45:00disenchantment
45:01that people might
45:02develop because of
45:04this process towards
45:05electoral democracy,
45:06I think these are
45:07very serious
45:08repercussions that
45:10you might face.
45:11People might
45:11simply say,
45:12okay, forget it.
45:13We don't want to
45:14participate in this
45:15process if it's so
45:16difficult.
45:18So there is a
45:19need for ECI to
45:21come out in the
45:22open and give
45:24its view on how
45:26do they evaluate
45:27what has happened
45:28rather than just
45:29defend what is
45:30indefensible.
45:32Right.
45:35Let me leave it
45:36there, Mr.
45:38Lavasa.
45:38As always,
45:39plain speaking and
45:40I therefore
45:40appreciate you
45:42calling out openly
45:43here today on the
45:44show for an
45:44apology from the
45:46election commission.
45:47The citizens of
45:48this country
45:48deserve to know
45:50if their names are
45:52taken off the
45:52roles legitimate
45:53citizens.
45:54Why is that
45:54happening?
45:55If they are being
45:55served notices,
45:57why is that
45:57happening and why
45:58is it taking so
45:59long and why is
46:00the burden of
46:00proof on the
46:01citizens, many
46:02of whom have all
46:03the documents?
46:04And if you
46:04believe this is
46:05about removing
46:06infiltrators,
46:07outsiders, then
46:08come up with the
46:08numbers as Mr.
46:10Lavasa is saying.
46:12Opacity is not a
46:14solution to
46:15cleaning up the
46:16electoral rolls of
46:17the country.
46:18The election
46:18commission's
46:19credibility on the
46:20test.
46:21Appreciate Mr.
46:22Lavasa, you
46:23joining me on the
46:23show today.
46:24Let's turn from
46:25there to our
46:26Get Real India
46:27story today.
46:27A shocking
46:28mob assault in
46:29Bihar's Jammui
46:30district has
46:31triggered outrage
46:32after two class
46:3310 students were
46:35attacked on a
46:35public road.
46:36They included a
46:37minor girl.
46:39Three accused
46:39have been arrested
46:40but there are
46:41still question
46:42marks over the
46:43others who were
46:44caught on the
46:45video.
46:46Take a look at
46:47this shocker from
46:48Jammui.
47:12Six to seven men,
47:14two class 10
47:15students and a
47:16public road turned
47:18into a scene of
47:19horror.
47:24The teenagers
47:25were returning
47:26from a coaching
47:26class after
47:27visiting Madhwa
47:29Pahad where
47:30the men stopped
47:31their scooter.
47:36The boy was
47:38grabbed by his
47:39collar.
47:44The two tried
47:45to flee but
47:46the mob chased
47:46them.
47:51One man is
47:52seen grabbing
47:53the girl by
47:53her neck,
47:54lifting her
47:55off the ground.
47:56Another is
47:57seen groping
47:57her.
48:00Even as they
48:01tried to escape
48:02on their
48:02scooter, a man
48:03pulled the girl
48:04by her hand
48:04and all of it
48:06was filmed.
48:32This was
48:33mob assault
48:34in the name
48:35of moral
48:35policing.
48:36The video
48:37went viral
48:37triggering outrage
48:38and police
48:39action.
48:40The police
48:41so far have
48:42arrested three
48:43accused while
48:44the investigation
48:44continues.
48:48as assault
48:49on the roads
48:50filmed by
48:51the assailants
48:52themselves.
48:57Will the
48:58Bihar police
48:58walk the talk
48:59and nab all
49:01the suspects
49:01behind the
49:02attack on
49:03the teenagers?
49:06With Rohit
49:07Singh, Bureau
49:08Report, India
49:08Today.
49:13That shocker
49:14in Jammui,
49:15just about
49:15enough time
49:15to leave you
49:16with happier
49:16news.
49:17Our image
49:18of the day
49:18is that of
49:19Suchika
49:19Tarial and
49:20our medal
49:21winning athletes
49:22at the
49:23Asian game.
49:24Suchika
49:24scripted a
49:25slice of
49:26history,
49:26getting the
49:26first ever
49:27Indian medal
49:28in the
49:29mixed martial
49:30arts,
49:30clinching bronze
49:31on Monday.
49:32year.
49:32She could have
49:33even got a
49:33silver,
49:34but that was
49:35denied because
49:35of her higher
49:37weight.
49:38After two days
49:39of competition,
49:40India has four
49:41silver and two
49:42bronze,
49:43adding three more
49:43medals today in
49:45the 10-meter air
49:46rifle team event,
49:47silver, individual
49:48silver for
49:49Himanshu Dhillon,
49:50and a bronze for
49:51Rudrang Shmatil.
49:52China, not
49:54surprisingly,
49:55leads the way
49:56with as many
49:56as 23 goals.
49:58A lot of
49:59catching up to
49:59do, but at
50:00least it's been
50:01a start.
50:02Hopefully, we'll
50:03have a golden
50:04haul by the
50:05end.
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