- 6 weeks ago
GQ’s Zach Baron sits down for a tête-à-tête with Hollywood star-turned-podcast host (What Are We Even Doing? with Kyle MacLachlan) at the GQ offices in Los Angeles. The Twin Peaks and Fallout star talks about Dune (both the new trilogy and the original 1984 adaptation), dealing with the loss of David Lynch and playing the Hollywood game.
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00:00Did you ever have a conversation with David Lynch about these new Doom movies?
00:03No. No, he didn't want to see them.
00:05Oh, he didn't want to see them.
00:06No. I don't know if he ever saw anything that I, other things that I did.
00:10Really?
00:10Yeah, I know.
00:22Alright, I'm gonna try to start.
00:24Alright.
00:24Again, all the...
00:25I'm gonna look away.
00:27Oh, you're gonna look away?
00:27Yeah, cuz it's gonna give you your space.
00:29Oh, okay. Oh, is that, this is like an actor, if I think?
00:32It's like, maybe if I don't look at the guy, you can't.
00:35He's gonna be okay?
00:36He's gonna be okay.
00:36Okay.
00:39Kyle MacLachlan, legend of the David Lynch universe, internet star, podcast host with a show called What Are We Even
00:49Doing?
00:49Yeah.
00:50Author of a very cool new book, memoir, called Fictional Cells.
00:55Kyle, welcome to One More Question. Thanks for doing this.
00:57I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for that nice introduction.
01:00Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm getting better, maybe?
01:04I'm okay?
01:05You're doing great.
01:07I mean, the book, which we'll get into more, is about these sort of alternate selves you create as a
01:15public figure.
01:18Obviously, me hosting a little talk show is not like that, but there's an element of like, oh, man, I
01:23guess I have to create a version of myself now.
01:25Like, what is the trick to that?
01:28Well, you absolutely hit the nail on the head, because I think we all do that to a certain degree,
01:33depending upon the situation.
01:35You know, I was a certain self when I was with my grandparents back when I was, even when I
01:40was a little kid, I knew that I had to behave a certain way.
01:42And so I was a certain person, you know, and then much different than when I'm with my friends or
01:46with my son, you know.
01:48So, and in the acting world, it goes further.
01:51You know, you're creating this other character that people are identifying with when they see it.
01:57And that's, I mean, they know that you're more than that, but when they meet you for the first time
02:04or you have a fan interaction, they're kind of meeting this person that they've always sort of seen on television
02:12or film, you know.
02:13Right.
02:14And so I feel like, should I be more like that guy or just be myself?
02:21And I, you know, ultimately I'm just myself, hey, how's it going, which I think in some ways puts them
02:26at ease.
02:27I think that's my intention anyway.
02:29It's like, hey, I'm just a kid from Yakima.
02:31You know, I'm an actor.
02:33This is what I do.
02:34And I had really fun playing that character that you have just said the name of.
02:37Right.
02:38It's not me.
02:39Yeah.
02:39But I'm just a regular guy.
02:41So I try to say, just calm, be cool.
02:44You know, let's have a nice talk.
02:46I want to start with a line in your book.
02:49I'm going to look at it to make sure I get it right.
02:51It's a really good line.
02:53This is about kind of your introduction to the world that you live in now.
02:57You say, it's not even like I break into movies.
02:59It's as though the movies break through my quiet world and land directly on top of me.
03:05It's an awesome line.
03:06I wonder if you can kind of explain that.
03:08It did feel like that.
03:09I mean, that's in reference to Dune, really, which was such a fluke, how that all tied together.
03:19Unless you believe in some kind of weird faith, which I do and don't, you know.
03:27But I was in Seattle, had finished my training as an actor, going to be a repertory theater actor.
03:35That was my thing.
03:37And I was about to go to New York.
03:39And I was just wrapping up a production I was doing in Seattle before I, you know, set out to
03:44seek my fortune, kind of.
03:47And I got a call about a movie called Dune, and they were auditioning young actors in Seattle for the
03:53role of Paul.
03:55And it was so specific that I said, someone's pranking me because I just happened to be a huge, huge
04:00Dune fan, which there are, you know, there are many, many, many.
04:04But I really, really was a fan.
04:06I mean, I knew the book incredibly well.
04:08And so I said, somebody's, you know, messing with me.
04:11So when I dug a little further, they said, actually, no, it's for real.
04:16And I went on that audition.
04:18And then that carried me down to Los Angeles, where I met David Lynch and Rafaela De Laurentiis on the
04:25back lot at Universal Studios.
04:28You know, and then the conversation ensued with David.
04:32And he gave me the script at the end of the conversation and said, learn these scenes and come back
04:36and screen test.
04:36And I was like, sure, I don't even know what I'm doing.
04:41And so here I was kind of on this trajectory to New York and, you know, kind of came knocking.
04:49And I didn't know what to think about that.
04:52Do you feel many years later, like, to some degree, like you're here by accident still in some way?
04:59Every day.
05:00Really?
05:01Yeah.
05:01I mean, without that intervention or whatever it was, I would have gone to New York and I would have,
05:09you know, been hopefully involved in musical theater there.
05:12That was my thing.
05:15Or I'd be hired out of New York and I'd be working, you know, at the Alley Theater in Houston
05:19or, you know, somewhere in Milwaukee or, you know, who knows where I would be.
05:24Completely different career, I'm sure.
05:27Completely different life.
05:28Have you ever met another actor who's like, shares this kind of like, man, I truly do not know how
05:35I got here?
05:36There are a lot, I think.
05:38Really?
05:40Yeah, I think, I mean, people come, I did it a different way.
05:46I came to Hollywood with a screen test and then got hired and got cast in this major motion picture.
05:51You know, a lot of actors come and they'll be like, they stay with a friend on the couch, you
05:54know what I mean?
05:55They take classes, they're auditioning all the time, they get an agent, you know, and then they get sent out
06:00and, you know, it's this gradual process, you know,
06:02and maybe they hit at some point in time and that for me was kind of, happened in reverse in
06:08a way because I got cast in Dune, did the movie
06:11and then finished the movie, couldn't work for a year and a half and then...
06:17Because of your contract.
06:18Because my contract stipulated that I couldn't do anything.
06:21I couldn't appear in anything but I couldn't even do anything because no one wanted to put me in something
06:25and then run the risk of Dune, like, being pushed and stuff.
06:28So they were like, no, you can't do anything.
06:31So I was like, okay, what...
06:33You know, I had nothing, nothing.
06:36I had theater, you know, so I went and did a play, you know, and I came back and I
06:39was like, okay.
06:40But it was...
06:41And then Dune came out and didn't do very well, as we all know.
06:44And so that's when I started.
06:46It wasn't at ground zero.
06:48It wasn't at zero.
06:48I had an agent, you know, and I had a manager, so I had a little bit of the trappings,
06:51you know.
06:52And you had been in a giant...
06:53And I'd been in a giant movie, yeah.
06:54Yeah, even though it was unsuccessful and there was, you know, kind of a stigma to that,
06:59I still had a little bit of something, you know.
07:02So I was able to get auditions and stuff.
07:04But then I started my auditioning process, which was a disaster, to be honest.
07:08I have some questions about that.
07:12But in the book, you relay your first Hollywood experience, which is on the set of Dune, which is in
07:17Mexico.
07:18And, for instance, they are burning giant piles of rubber tires to get the type of black smoke that David
07:25Lynch is seeking.
07:27At the time, I assume you're like, I guess this is just what movies are.
07:32Now that you've been on many other sets, I'm curious when you look back at it.
07:36But, you know, it never would have happened, you know.
07:40It was completely poison that was, you know, in clouds of black smoke, burning tires.
07:47And it would occasionally waft right through the scene.
07:50And there were times when we were actually speaking and the winds would shift and the smoke would come through.
07:57And you'd go to take a breath in.
07:59And you actually, you couldn't take a breath in.
08:02And then you couldn't speak because your vocal cords were froze.
08:07You just had to put your hand up and said, need some water, please?
08:09Thank you very much.
08:11And then the wind would shift, you know, and you'd go on with it.
08:15But everything on that picture was new, obviously, to me.
08:18And everything, I just said, oh, I guess this is movies, you know.
08:22Sting is on that set.
08:24Yeah.
08:24He's in the movie.
08:25You're like playing guitar with Sting.
08:27Yeah.
08:28That was crazy.
08:28Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken over your hotel gym for some reason?
08:31Yes, he's there working out because he's doing Conan Part 2.
08:35Okay.
08:35I mean, is this all as surreal as it sounds?
08:38Yes, it was completely surreal.
08:41Sting was just about to embark on the Synchronicity Tour.
08:45Every breath you take had come out.
08:47He was, like, kind of the talk of the town, really.
08:51Really nice guy.
08:52And, you know, I played a little guitar, and I brought my guitar with me from when I came down
08:57to Mexico City.
08:58And I would bring it to a set and bring it to my little room in there.
09:02And so he said, yeah, do you want to learn a couple songs?
09:05I said, okay, sure.
09:06And I said, I like Roxanne, and maybe a message in a bottle is sort of hard.
09:11And he's like, all right, right.
09:12So we sat in his room.
09:14His engineer was programming.
09:15I'm not sure what he was doing, actually, but he appeared to be programming.
09:19It was a keyboard, but I think it was more than that.
09:21And so all the loops and everything, they were putting those in.
09:27And I like music, and I had kind of a fantasy, as, you know, pretty much every young man of
09:32that age can play a little guitar does, of, like, being in a band and, you know, someday, you know,
09:36just performing for people.
09:38And here, this thing, you know, he's, like, the guy.
09:41So I was just sitting there absolutely fanboying out and trying to, you know, learn new songs, which I can
09:47still kind of remember.
09:48Really?
09:48Yeah, yeah.
09:49I can't play it.
09:50My fingers are absolutely dead.
09:52I haven't played forever, but I can kind of remember.
09:53Kind of remember it.
09:54Yeah.
09:55Yeah, from all the way back then.
09:56Mm-hmm.
09:57This role in Dune, I believe other actors up for the part that didn't get it included Tom Cruise.
10:03Yeah.
10:04And Val Kilmer.
10:04Yeah.
10:05Val was pretty close, evidently.
10:10But they decided, they kept looking.
10:12They just said to me, you know, we're not completely sure.
10:15We wanted to do one last sweep of the country, I guess, because they went to a couple, like, Dallas
10:22and Chicago and Seattle, San Francisco.
10:26And they found me.
10:27They, the hooks, they caught, the rake, you know, pulled me out.
10:34Have you ever, like, talked with Tom or Val about Val?
10:39No.
10:39No, no.
10:40I mean, with Val, because we did The Doors together, we never really talked about it, you know.
10:48And Val had already done, I think, at that point, Real Genius, I think he'd done, and something else.
10:55And he went on to do just amazing, I mean, his performance is Jim Morrison, I think is.
11:01In the movie you're in, yeah.
11:02It was unbelievable.
11:03I watched it, you know, and I just was, I was, like, so captivated, thinking that is, he has embodied
11:09this.
11:09And it was an amazing performance, and it was a shame that he wasn't nominated, because he, I think he
11:15did such a beautiful job.
11:17And we hit it off, kind of, in the funny, in our, you know, we're friends, we were friends.
11:22And then, because the Jim Ray, I played Ray Manzarek, so that relationship was, you know, we tried to, we
11:29kind of had to figure that out a little bit.
11:32And, you know, we did.
11:35We did.
11:36I mean, I was asking in part because I think in the book, in your book, both Tom Cruise and
11:43Valcomer become characters, almost like alternate selves.
11:45People that you're kind of watching have careers, as you're having a career.
11:49Yeah.
11:49And almost like paths not taken for you.
11:53Well, they, I don't think there were paths I could have taken, you know, because I tried.
11:58But those types of performances, those type of characters, those leading men kind of performances, and Tom, certainly, you know,
12:09he went a certain direction, and he really was, that was, he was all in.
12:13And he really, I think he really, you know, he found what he does well, and he's really good at
12:17it.
12:19And I think what happens is, you know, once he sort of developed that, and he kind of found his
12:23path through, you know, there were a couple of sidesteps, as any career has sidesteps.
12:27But he's really, he's found his direction, I think.
12:31And Val, Val just continued to evolve, and, you know, his performance in Tombstone, you know, it's not holiday.
12:38I mean, it's, you know, it's my wife's favorite, you know, and whenever it comes on, I'm like, I leave
12:43the room.
12:44It's like, all right, you can have some time with Val, it's okay.
12:46But he's amazing.
12:47He's just amazing.
12:48I mean, it's even, like, after Dune, you go on some auditions, and you get offered Platoon, and you turn
12:54it down, and you get close on Top Gun.
13:00And some kind of wonderful, or at least, like, you're, you know.
13:03I mean, I was in the mix with Top Gun, for sure, for a moment.
13:08I wasn't really ever considered seriously.
13:11And these near misses seem to, like, haunt you a bit.
13:13They were, at the time, they were really impactful, surprisingly.
13:18Because I always, in the beginning of my career, I sort of approached things trying not to care too much,
13:23because it hurt too much if I didn't get it.
13:26But along with that went, sort of, I didn't really prepare.
13:30I didn't really, you know, I kind of came in in a little cavalier and kind of winged it a
13:34little bit.
13:34And that never works.
13:36I mean, once in a while, you can hit by inspiration, yeah.
13:38But if they ask you to do it a second time, it's very hard to recreate that.
13:42So it wasn't the best choice.
13:46But the things that I, that I did, that did seep into me, and really had to do, I mean,
13:53I love the story.
13:54River Runs Through It was one, and Dracula was one.
13:58I was really, I really wanted to do it, you know.
14:01And those really hurt.
14:03And, you know, it's not so much, oh, I want to play that character.
14:07I want to work with Coppola, you know what I mean?
14:08I want to work with Robert Redford, you know.
14:10I was like, these are guys that I have admired for so long, and the opportunity was just so.
14:16And you got close enough to, like, taste it to have dinner with Coppola to kind of know what it
14:20was.
14:21Yeah, just like, oh, God, you know, I want to step through that.
14:24Can I step into that mirror?
14:25You have this great line that's about sort of the Top Gun near miss, and I think Miller's Crossing near
14:33miss.
14:33Yeah, Miller's Crossing, yeah.
14:34You mentioned the Doors movie, too, and you say, Tony Scott knew I was no fighter pilot.
14:38The Coen brothers knew I was no gangster, and Oliver Stone knows I'm no rock out.
14:44What do you think you were in retrospect?
14:47I was, now you're reminding me of the quote that I use, the Bowie quote is like growing, maturing or
14:55life is the process of becoming who you always were type thing, you know.
14:59And I think I always was sort of that slightly enigmatic, more cerebral, maybe, some secrets, some hidden stuff, in
15:13kind of the guise of this somewhat callow young man, which I think in Blue Velvet, David, that was kind
15:21of, that was sort of, yeah, you're perfect for that.
15:22Yeah.
15:24Yeah.
15:25I was so happy for, you know, but at the same time, I was like, okay, I did that.
15:31And maybe it was a theater tradition, like I've done that, and I want to try something different, you know.
15:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:35But there were other opportunities, and the Sex, Lies, and Videotape was one that was there, and I deliberately sidestepped
15:42that just because I thought that's, we're now, we're in the same fabric here.
15:46And I'm like, I don't want to do that again, necessarily, which was, turned out to be not the best
15:51decision, but, you know, it was made because of a certain rationale.
15:54Yeah.
15:54But I wanted something, I wanted, you know, I wanted to lean into that, you know, romantic hero type guy,
16:02and I wanted to be that.
16:03You're chasing it, you wanted it.
16:04Yeah, yeah.
16:05But I didn't really know quite how to, how to get there.
16:08Yeah.
16:09Do you feel like you ever figured it out?
16:12A version of him.
16:14Yeah, I think so.
16:16But there's always problems, you know.
16:19You've got a murderer, you know, or he's impotent, or, you know, there's all these things, you know.
16:24It's like, oh, he has another problem besides that, you know.
16:27The romantic meeting hero, he's perfect, right?
16:29I mean, maybe he's got, you know, some other sort of major issue he's kind of getting through, but, you
16:34know.
16:37The Dune experience, as you say, is strange in many ways, one of which is, like,
16:45you're kind of on ice, but you're also, like, there's billboards of your face in Times Square.
16:49It was weird.
16:50Yeah.
16:50I mean, what's that moment like for you?
16:52I mean, you know, a billboard in Times Square, you know, I always work for $185 a week at the
16:57Empty Space Theater in Seattle,
16:58and suddenly I'm in Times Square, and I'm looking at it going, what does this all mean?
17:02You know, I just, like, I was, like, because I'm standing there, and I'm, like, you know,
17:07it's the middle of summer, and the movie doesn't come out until December.
17:10Yeah.
17:12And it was more just, I always said, something is happening, but I don't really understand what's happening.
17:17And so I just, it wasn't like I was on another set working on another film somewhere.
17:22I'm going, okay, this is now film is my life.
17:24Film wasn't really my life.
17:26I'd done the movie, of course, but I was, like, now what?
17:29Now what?
17:30Yeah.
17:31And I didn't know which direction to go in, kind of.
17:33And then Roger Ebert calls it, what, the worst movie of the year?
17:36Oh, yeah, he was not very happy.
17:38And then he didn't like Blue Velvet either, so I was 0 for 2 with old Roger.
17:42With enough people saying to you, you're going to be a huge star, you know?
17:46I'm like, well, he's an actor, you know what I mean?
17:50But I hear that enough, you know.
17:52Like, I guess you know what you're talking about.
17:53And you start to think, maybe, you know, and what does that mean?
17:58And I was just, like, going, okay, I guess that means, so I'll do these other five Dune movies that
18:06I had contracted to do.
18:07And then I've got the three other movies for Dino's company.
18:10So he really, you know, he iced me for, could have been decades, honestly.
18:14If that had been a huge success, you know, it would be like a Star Wars situation.
18:19When you, like, when you watch Timothee Chalamet now in Dune, do you see yourself?
18:24I don't really, but I, when I watched the movies, I was very nostalgic.
18:29Really?
18:29Well, I just, I felt like I was revisiting something.
18:33Like, when I, when the scene in the box, you know, he puts his hand in the pain, pain box,
18:37right?
18:37And it was almost word forward, because it's from the book, you know what I mean?
18:40It's almost word forward.
18:41And I'm like, oh, God, I remember that day, and I remember working with Sean Phillips, and I remember how
18:47costume, and then how the camera moved, and the choices I made walking.
18:50I mean, I was like, everything came kind of flooding back in a very unexpected way.
18:57But, and I was like, and then I was like, oh, that would have been a great scene.
19:00I wish we'd done that scene in the tent.
19:01That would have been really good, you know what I mean?
19:03Or, you know, you see something, and you're like, oh, I love that scene.
19:05That would have been fun to shoot.
19:07But I didn't really feel like, like I was watching the movie, but I was kind of in the movie,
19:12too, a little bit.
19:13It was a weird sensation.
19:14So you weren't really able to, like, enjoy it is a loaded word, but.
19:19Sit back and, I mean, a little bit, a little bit, because I love the book so much.
19:22I love the story.
19:23It was, it was, and it was really fun to see some of the, some of the larger, the scale
19:28of things, you know what I mean?
19:29When you see the worms in a desert, and, you know, and I know it's a lot of, a lot
19:32of CGI and stuff, but I was like, wow.
19:34And like, God, they really move fast, don't they?
19:35I was like, you know, we never really, we had a side slice of a worm on the side of
19:40a boxcar, you know, on a railroad, kind of chugging along that I was running after like this with a
19:44hook, you know.
19:45It was very low.
19:46In some ways, it was like, just kind of, what's the word, not lo-fi?
19:52It was like lo-fi, you know, in some odd way.
19:56But it was, but it was my Dune, you know, and it was full of those kind of wonderful memories.
20:02Do you, did you ever have a conversation with David Lynch about these new Dune movies?
20:06No.
20:06No, he didn't want to see them.
20:08Oh, he didn't want to see them?
20:09No.
20:09Yeah.
20:10He was not interested.
20:12I don't know if he ever saw anything that I, other things that I did.
20:15Really?
20:16Yeah.
20:17He just, dude, and move out.
20:19And part of that, I think, is, and particularly with Twin Peaks, the character of Cooper, I was Cooper for
20:27David.
20:27I mean, I was, I was Kale, which he used to call me.
20:30Yeah.
20:32But I was Cooper.
20:33So whenever he'd see me, he'd be Kale sometimes, but sometimes he would see me when I go visit and
20:37say, Coop, you know, how you doing?
20:39You know, and I was like, he really, there's a big, he really, he's, I'm Cooper in the Twin Peaks
20:46verse.
20:46It's very Lynchian.
20:49This, you're like a small town, innocent being drawn into an increasingly dangerous dream world of David Lynch's.
20:56Yeah.
20:57Which is, of course, like what all the movies are about.
20:59Yeah.
20:59But it sounds like this was sort of your experience in actual real life.
21:02In real life.
21:03Yeah.
21:03I go to visit him and, you know, you're in that environment.
21:05And it's, it was a wonderful environment because he, he, he talked about the, the, the, the artist's life, the
21:13art life.
21:15And David was someone who every day, created something every day.
21:19So he got up and he made something or he, he, music or he wrote or he painted or, you
21:26know, he was always creating.
21:29And I didn't really know the extent of that until after he was gone.
21:33And I went to visit, to check in on, you know, the house and everyone.
21:38And they were cataloging his, his archive.
21:42And there was like massive, massive amount of stuff that, you know, drawings and paintings and little things on matchbook
21:49covers that he'd done.
21:51This little sequence and stuff.
21:52Just things like that.
21:53And he just, there was no material or medium that he wouldn't create with or use or create on somehow.
22:03Which I think in some odd way I began to understand why TV to him was just another canvas in
22:11which he could tell the story.
22:12It wasn't TV.
22:13He wasn't making something for TV.
22:14He was like, I'm working in this medium and I'm making what I want to make the way I want
22:18to make it.
22:19Which had nothing to do with TV at the time.
22:21Right.
22:21You know, back in 89.
22:23And did, did you ever, like, do you know what he saw in you?
22:26Clearly he saw something, you know.
22:28I never really asked him, actually.
22:31I, I, people, you know, said, what is it that David listened?
22:33I'm like, we had a friendship.
22:38He must have, you know, he, he casts based on meeting and conversations and something about me, my personality.
22:46Maybe because we share the same location.
22:47You know, we grew up kind of in the Northwest.
22:49We have similarity in that way.
22:54And I think he kind of understood that I could, I know he understood that I could take the audience
23:01into this world that he had created, which he recognized as being something challenging.
23:05And, and they would go with me because I've come across, I'm just kind of, you know, I'm a regular
23:10guy from Yakima, you know, which is a good part of who I am.
23:13But I also had his other side, which was sort of drawn to this darkness that he could kind of,
23:19you know, he's pretty smart and he sensed it.
23:21And I think that combination is why he, you know, he cast me, I think.
23:26He also seems to have been, like, more legible to you than he is to some people.
23:30You know, like, like you, you seem to, like, I think a lot of people look at a Blue Velvet
23:35script and be like, what?
23:38And, you know, in the book, you're very matter of fact, oh, it's a story about this and this and
23:43this.
23:43Yeah, yeah.
23:43You just seem to, like, get it.
23:45I got it.
23:46It was very weird because it was a second film script I read after Dune.
23:49That was the first two.
23:51But I got the journey.
23:52I got the young, because he's a young kid.
23:54He's home from college.
23:55And I said, I know that experience, you know, it happened a few years ago.
24:00And this attraction to this dark femme fatale.
24:05And at the same time, this, the appeal of the light, sandy, you know, the virginal queen.
24:12I said, oh, yeah, that, I understand that.
24:15I understand that, where that would work.
24:17And then the absolute terror of falling into the pit with Frank Booth, you know, with Dennis Hopper.
24:25Played so beautifully and just going, and you've gone too far, you know.
24:31I just, I just clocked it.
24:32And I said, I get it.
24:33And I said, okay.
24:35And then I said, no.
24:37Yeah, well, you showed it to your mother, which is still, it's a story you've told many times before.
24:41And every time I, I'm just like, why did he show the blue velvet shirt to his mother?
24:46I don't understand.
24:47Is it like the horror movie when he said, don't go into that movie?
24:49Yeah, you're like, what?
24:50No, don't do that.
24:50Don't do that.
24:51Don't go in the basement.
24:52Yeah.
24:52Oh, damn.
24:53Yeah.
24:54I was compelled.
24:56I don't know what to say.
24:57I was compelled.
24:58No, I, you know, I wanted her to be, she was, you know, a big part of me being an
25:03actor, honestly.
25:04Which I was always sort of growing up, I thought, oh, no, I'm the one who discovered this.
25:08And I'm the one, you know, she encouraged me, of course.
25:10Forced would be another good word.
25:12But she encouraged me in the very beginning.
25:14And then I sort of picked it up and took it from there.
25:16Or, but she was always, you know, try this, or what about this?
25:21You might want to check this school out over here, pop, pop, you know.
25:24Yeah.
25:24That was always her way.
25:26Yeah.
25:26So.
25:27And that's why she had to read the blue velvet script.
25:29Yeah.
25:29So she had to.
25:31She did not like the blue velvet script, I'm telling you.
25:33Well, she didn't tell me that.
25:34That was, which is another part of my mom.
25:36She was very, she didn't want to.
25:38But you could tell.
25:39Yeah.
25:39And then her, you know, her husband at the time said, I don't know.
25:43Blue velvet is like critically pretty well received.
25:48But it's not a huge hit or anything.
25:52No.
25:52And it's not until 1990 you do the Twin Peaks TV show, the pilot of which was watched by,
25:58I believe, 35 million people.
26:00That was a huge number.
26:01Yeah.
26:01Even at the time it was big.
26:03Yeah.
26:03Yeah.
26:03I mean.
26:04But I'm like, what's that?
26:07You know, again, I'm just sort of like.
26:08I'm curious, what was it?
26:10You know, there was all sorts of these numbers and rankings and percentages and things like
26:15that with the Nielsen stuff, you know what I mean?
26:18But surely when you're like, when you do something that 35 million people watched, there must be
26:23like an immediate.
26:25You're like, oh, wow, that's, it's amazing.
26:27You must feel it somehow.
26:28You, how did I do it?
26:30It was like, you're kind of, but it's happening over there.
26:34It's weird.
26:35It's like you're working on stage, you have an audience, bam.
26:38You're getting an immediate reaction.
26:40You know, you do film and television, you do it and you've done it and then it comes
26:44out and you're like, oh, great.
26:45Great.
26:45Okay.
26:46What does that mean?
26:47It's like, I don't feel any different.
26:49You know, I'm going to work tomorrow, you know, driving to the set.
26:52The energy in your life must change in some way.
26:54There was more attention.
26:56Yeah.
26:56Yeah.
26:56Well, this hosting Saturday Night Live was a pretty good.
26:59There were indicators.
27:00Let's say, you know, you shoot for a magazine or do this kind of thing.
27:02A little magazine called GQ put you on a cover.
27:04A little magazine.
27:05It was before my time.
27:06I had nothing to do.
27:06You weren't even born yet.
27:10I think I was born.
27:11I think I was born.
27:13Maybe not.
27:14Who knows?
27:15Anyway, it wasn't.
27:16I didn't do it.
27:17I didn't do it.
27:17But yeah, that was, I mean, that was a thing that happened.
27:19Yeah.
27:20There were those indicators, right?
27:22Cover of GQ.
27:23That's a big deal.
27:25SNL.
27:26That was a really big deal.
27:27That was a big deal because I had grown up with SNL.
27:29So it was like, okay.
27:31And that, I think more than anything, the cover magazines were like fine.
27:34It's like, okay.
27:35I, but I got to work.
27:36We're not fishing for compliments.
27:37No, but I got to work.
27:38Fine is like, fine is all worth shooting for.
27:41That GQ was fine, you know.
27:42No, that was a big deal.
27:44That was a big deal.
27:46Later, you sort of lament like not doing more with the opportunity, basically, right?
27:50It's fine.
27:51Yeah, there was a, there was a, like, there was a time when I sort of, that was sort of
27:55coming in.
27:55It was weird because I kind of, for some reason, maybe I was, maybe I was uncomfortable.
28:03Maybe I didn't trust it.
28:04Maybe I, maybe I didn't feel I deserve it.
28:07I don't know what it was.
28:09But I sort of didn't, I didn't dig in, you know, and like, you know, take advantage of
28:17that moment in a way.
28:19Well, I mean, it makes me think of the conversation we were having slightly earlier about the kind
28:23of you chasing different versions of a leading man and, and kind of like not, not finding
28:31the thing that clicks.
28:32Yeah.
28:33You know?
28:33Yeah.
28:34And then like later, like you have, you talk about this in the book, success on these sort
28:41of ensemble shows where you're like in Sex and the City.
28:44Desperate Housewives.
28:45Now you're on Fallout.
28:46Yeah.
28:46I'm curious for your analysis of the situation, because like one version of it would be, and
28:50you and I don't know each other, and this is kind of a rude thing to say directly, but
28:54it's like one, one version of it would be like, there's something about you is that that's
28:58not working as a leading man.
29:00Right.
29:01That could be one conclusion.
29:02Right.
29:03I don't know if that's the conclusion that you draw.
29:06I think it's part of it.
29:07I think it's part of, it's part of what, or that I don't really deserve, you know, that.
29:14I mean, we can get deep with that, you know, maybe.
29:18Or that I'm simply, I'm a better in an ensemble as a collaborator, you know, I don't want to
29:26be the person out front.
29:28Even Twin Peaks, you know, even though Cooper was out front, I mean, it's an ensemble show.
29:33As are all the other ones that you mentioned.
29:39And, yeah, it's kind of the same thing I had with the McDreamy sort of thing.
29:43I think there's a part of me that feels like, I don't really, you know, it's not really me
29:50to be out front and take the lead like that.
29:52Reading it, I couldn't make up my mind.
29:54There was times where I thought that, and there were times where I simply thought, this
29:58is a guy who can act, but who, for whatever reason, can't quite play the Hollywood game.
30:02Yeah, well, I don't know if I'm that aware to play or not play, or decided not to play
30:10the Hollywood game.
30:10I think I chose to not engage because, you know, something about just not being comfortable
30:22in that world, not wanting to sort of dance in that world somehow.
30:28I kind of wanted to be outside of it a little bit.
30:30Yeah, and it seems like at some point you fully realize that, but there is this period
30:35of your career that's like the Twin Peaks movie and kind of like those years afterwards
30:41where it seems like you're kind of like chasing this thing that maybe actually in your heart
30:44you don't really want, but you don't know what else to do.
30:47Right, but maybe deep down I do.
30:48Or maybe you do, yeah.
30:49You know, I know, but I'm just not willing to, you know, step up.
30:53Yeah.
30:54So that could be part of it too.
30:56Because I love what I do.
30:57I mean, the process of creating a character, of going in there, and all the layers and
31:02the nuance and all that stuff is really fun for me to do.
31:04And I've, you know, that's kind of what I've been doing these past decade, I guess.
31:10Now working on Fallout, it's great going to work with and carrying in, being comfortable
31:15carrying in a sense of joy.
31:16I still have a great deal of joy for the process, you know.
31:19Even if it's an intense scene, you're bringing in, we're making stuff here.
31:23It's just creative.
31:25Let's throw stuff against the wall, you know, and try different things.
31:28But at the same time, but I think in some ways I'm kind of like, you know, I'm kind of,
31:33am I ready?
31:34Maybe I'm getting closer to the idea of like, yeah, I could carry a show now, I think.
31:39Yeah.
31:40I'm a very late bloomer.
31:42To be fair, you have carried shows before.
31:44It's not, it would not be the first time.
31:47You do the Twin Peaks movie, kind of, you're gentle about it in the book, but you and David
31:54Lynch seem to fall out of it.
31:55We had a little bit of a, yeah, a little bit of a, I don't know what tiff is the
31:58word,
31:58but I think it was, and a lot of it was around Twin Peaks, you know, and what happened there
32:03and the potential that was there and the potential that we didn't, we kind of saw happening,
32:09but no one really knew how to channel it further and take it further.
32:16And felt a little stranded, honestly, out there, kind of, you know, waving in the breeze.
32:23And so, yeah, you kind of, that kind of resentment came up.
32:28At the same time, you know, take David's side and say, these are the things that were going
32:31on in his life and this was, you know, babysitting a show was not something that he was actually
32:36interested in doing, you know.
32:37And then ABC made it incredibly difficult for him to do that his way, which is the beauty
32:43of being able to return so many years later with Showtime and be able to, like, oh, now
32:49he can, he can make it the way he wants to make it, you know.
32:53You tell this incredible story.
32:55I think it's the 2019 Governor's Awards where David Lynch receives an honorary Oscar.
33:00You and Laurie Dern presented to him.
33:02And then in the parking lot outside, you apologized to both of them.
33:06Yeah.
33:07Yeah.
33:08I mean, was it, was it that bad?
33:10Not really.
33:11It was just something that I had been carrying for a while and everything had been, we'd healed
33:16and everything was fine with Laura and with David, you know.
33:21But I felt like, you know, I had a glass of wine, so, you know, you're feeling a little
33:27more loose, right?
33:28And you're like, okay.
33:29And he said, I just, I want to, I want to make it, put it out in the world, right?
33:38Say it.
33:38I want to say it.
33:39I want to, what's the word?
33:44Make, you know, let it be known that, you know, blah, blah, blah type thing.
33:47And I just said, you know, this happened and to speak, speak the truth for me, you know.
33:52And, and it wasn't a big deal.
33:54It was just, you know, a little bit, but it was emotional.
33:56And I wanted them to hear that I understood what had happened and that I was, you know,
34:03my behavior was not great.
34:06And I understood why.
34:08And I was sort of saying, we've all gone past it, forgive us, but just, I recognize this.
34:14I'm just sort of saying, I recognize this.
34:16And, and to promote kind of, maybe, maybe something for me more than, because they'd
34:21forgive me and it was all fine.
34:22But in myself, maybe I hadn't quite done that.
34:25So.
34:26Do you feel like it changed things like that?
34:28It altered me.
34:29Yeah, for sure.
34:30It was just saying it out loud like that, speaking something that I was embarrassed about
34:34that I was not, not proud of, you know.
34:37Yeah.
34:38Yeah.
34:39He, David Lynch passed, getting up last year.
34:44Yeah.
34:44So, um, how, how'd, how'd you find out?
34:48I was so, you know, kind of in, in the gym, I was working out in the gym, my little
34:53home
34:53gym.
34:54And my wife came in and she said, I've got terrible news.
34:57I said, you know, your mind goes all over the place.
35:00She said, David Lynch, this past, I was like, and I was stunned, you know, you're like, that's
35:06not possible, you know, and, uh, and it, you know, it kind of comes, it takes, it takes a
35:13minute, you know, to sort of, to, um, to, to sort of get your head around that, not that
35:18you ever really do.
35:20And, uh, you know, he was not well and, um, uh, he had emphysema and, uh, I'd seen him
35:27before, but whenever I saw him, he was always, you know, he was pretty positive guy.
35:32He was never moping around and saying, oh, I don't know how much longer I had.
35:35He was always like, yeah, we're going to got this project.
35:37I'm trying to figure out a way that we can do this.
35:39He had this forward movement, forward thinking, positive attitude, you know, so I think we
35:45were all like, all right, you know, David's, you know, he's slowed down a little bit, but
35:49we're still going to make stuff, you know?
35:50So when it abruptly stopped, it was a shock.
35:54And, uh, but he's, he's, his compound where he had three houses together, you know, was
36:01such a thing and so powerful and it was just, that was where David was.
36:06And for the longest time, that's where David was in my mind, even though he wasn't, I
36:10didn't speak to him, I didn't see him, but that, that wasn't unusual.
36:12You know, we would go for periods of time where we wouldn't see each other, but in my
36:14head, he was always there.
36:16And I talk about when I finally saw on whatever website they were, the house, they were trying
36:22to sell the house, right?
36:22And they had interior photos, you know, and he goes through and I'm like, he's not there.
36:28He's not there.
36:28And I was just like, oh boy.
36:30And that was really tough.
36:31It kind of kind of hits you, you know, it's that delayed reaction for me.
36:35And what it was, so.
36:36Yeah.
36:36I mean, I was going to ask if you had processed it.
36:38It sounds like.
36:39Yeah.
36:39In some ways.
36:40In some ways.
36:40Like a real estate listing.
36:41Yeah.
36:42But then it's a beauty, you know, I get together with Laura Dern, you know, or Isabella and
36:46we, um, or other friends and we talk about David, particularly with Laura and Isabella because
36:51we had such a close relationship and we tell stories and we laugh and he's very much around
36:56and alive.
36:56And I feel as, you know, I feel him there when that, when that happens.
36:59And so it's kind of more of a celebration and we're not moping around and weeping and
37:04wailing.
37:04It's kind of like, remember that?
37:05Yeah, that was really great.
37:06Or this moment.
37:09So that's how we remember him.
37:11There's a chapter about showgirls.
37:14A movie you say hovers over every interview.
37:17I get, honestly, was not going to ask you about that.
37:19Okay, good.
37:19Hold on.
37:20And I was like, challenge accepted.
37:21Yeah, yeah.
37:22Challenge accepted.
37:25I mean, I think, but in some ways, like, I don't really have a question.
37:28It's like, I think there is an element of, when I saw that and in the book, you're still
37:34very hard on that movie.
37:35Yeah.
37:35I was kind of like, my sense is, is that this movie has been critically redeemed by everybody
37:39except this guy who's...
37:41Except for me.
37:41Yeah.
37:42Who's just like, I don't like it.
37:43It would never happen.
37:45No, people have sort of said, come on, Kyle, lighten up.
37:48But I, you know, I am light.
37:49I mean, it's, it's entertaining.
37:50It's, it's, it's a hoot, you know.
37:52I watched it again and I was like, I, if I, if I may guess or be a mind reader,
37:57the
37:59antipathy, antipathy toward it, I was like, this just seems like a reminder of a, a time
38:05in a person's life that he did not enjoy.
38:08Well, I did not enjoy the process.
38:09I mean, it was pretty fun to shoot.
38:11Okay.
38:11I gotta say.
38:11So then I'm right.
38:12But that was fun for the most part.
38:14You know, Paul was scary, but, but that's okay.
38:17Paul Verhoeven director.
38:17Paul Verhoeven director.
38:18Yeah.
38:19I mean, I love Paul.
38:20I love Paul, but he can be pretty intense.
38:22Um, I love, but, but the, part of the fun of putting it in the book was, I, you know,
38:28I, again, I contextual, it's like, here's the context.
38:31Do you know what I mean?
38:31Here's where I was, the career.
38:32This is what I saw when I met.
38:34And, you know, this is where these guys were coming from.
38:37So you're like, gee, you start to move these pieces around.
38:39You say, this could be really cool.
38:40This could be really edgy, you know, and, and there's a chance for me to, to play a, not
38:44a nice guy, you know, right out front, you know?
38:46And I was like, okay, I like that idea.
38:48He's just somebody that's got some things going on, you know?
38:50You know, so with all that rationalization, right?
38:54You're like, okay, let's go.
38:55And, um, you know, and it was a beautiful ski season, you know, we go South Lake Tahoe.
39:01So I got to ski, see where my priorities were.
39:03You know, that's what we went into.
39:04And during the course of filming, yeah, there were sort of warning signs that I kind of like,
39:07man, that's okay.
39:08You know, I'm not going to look over there.
39:10That's fine.
39:11And, uh, and, uh, made choices, character choices for the role.
39:15I were just like, oh, I look at them like, just what an idiot.
39:18But, you know, you make a choice, you go with it.
39:20And, um, and then you had the screening, the infamous screening where I talk about in
39:26the book where I sat and watched this thing and just kind of melted, you know?
39:29I just like, oh boy, I'm in trouble.
39:31I'm in trouble.
39:32I'm in big trouble.
39:33And yeah, you know, uh, a cultural artifact that lives on.
39:37We'll live on forever.
39:38We'll live on forever.
39:40One thing that I like about the book a lot is it's about many things, but partially it's
39:48about this notion of, for lack of a better word, like, I mean, it's literally, you know,
39:53about these other selves, you know?
39:55Yeah.
39:55And it's about fame in some ways.
39:58Yeah.
39:58Kind of, you talk about how people like will come up to you and say like, oh, well, like,
40:03where did you go?
40:04Right.
40:05Which I always think is such a fascinating question.
40:07You know, I think, I think you say in the book, like, I'm right here is the answer.
40:11But that is to live that, to live this thing of like, okay, I've, I've done this career
40:19in movies, TV, and I've shot all this stuff.
40:24And yet somehow there's all these forces that are like bigger than me that leads a person
40:28to walk up to me and be like, where'd you go, man?
40:30Yeah.
40:31Yeah.
40:31What, what is that?
40:32Right.
40:32I mean, I don't know.
40:33How do you, how do you feel in those moments?
40:34I've always felt like, just in talking with you now, I think there's an issue, I have
40:40an issue with fame, you know what I mean?
40:41It's like, that is not something that I want to get close to, sort of, you know?
40:47It's too scary.
40:49Really?
40:49It's got too much of a, too much of a, like, you're sort of like, what's that, what's
40:55that, is it the bug's life?
40:57You know, when the moth is like, is it the moth flying towards the family?
41:01It's so beautiful.
41:03You're like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, yes, that's the fame is that
41:08light, you know what I mean?
41:09Don't go there, you know?
41:12So, it's, I think, just have a healthy relationship that would be with some distance, you know?
41:18So, don't deal with that, you know what I mean?
41:22I'm just like, no, no, this is, I'm an actor, you know, I create these roles, I've had great
41:27good fortune, I've worked with some really great people and some really cool roles, and
41:31I love that, you know?
41:32And that's good.
41:33And that's where we should be, you know?
41:35Yeah, I mean, I think there are people who can, like, play fame like an instrument, you
41:40know?
41:40And I'm, you've been on sets with these people who are just kind of like, they, it's, to
41:44them...
41:45That's a good line, play fame like an instrument.
41:48They, they're at the keys or whatever, you can just control it.
41:52And then, a very, I think, probably more common experience in your industry is, to use another
41:58metaphor, like, you're in the ocean, and like, sometimes the wave comes, and sometimes you
42:02catch it, and sometimes you're on the wave, and sometimes you fall off the
42:05wave, and sometimes you're in the ocean, and no waves are coming at all, and it's a real
42:11existence.
42:12I'm, I'm just kind of, like, fascinated by people like you who, who kind of live through
42:16it, you know?
42:17It's, well, you know, I don't know what to say, just that it's, yeah, I...
42:24I guess if there were a question, it would be, like, have you made your peace with that?
42:28Yeah.
42:28Sometimes you're on the wave, sometimes it's coming, sometimes it's not there at all.
42:31So, I think just being able to, you know, I think just the process, just having kind
42:36of weathered a lot of time now, I don't know, 40 years.
42:40Yeah.
42:40Over 40 years.
42:41Yeah.
42:42And I'm like, yeah, there's been the ups and downs, and try to, you know, I try, if you
42:46try to keep this line as smooth as, you know, this, as, what's it, so the, the gain is not
42:50up and down, you know what I mean?
42:51You're not going like this.
42:53You're just like, yeah, okay, we're going to be okay, we're going to be okay.
42:55And in the beginning, it's very hard, because you don't have anything to measure it against,
42:58you know, but after you've been down the road for a while, you're like, okay, yeah, this
43:02was a high, you know, and then you had this kind of low, but then, you know, then you
43:05came into here, and then this, you know, just keep balance.
43:08Balance is really important for me.
43:11From one host to another, how did I, how did I do?
43:13You were great.
43:15Are we summing up now?
43:16Do you have a...
43:18Is that, is that what you call it when you end an interview?
43:20You say, summing up?
43:21So, I always say, at the end of this, I said, did we, did, because the name of the podcast
43:25is, what are we even doing?
43:26What are we even doing?
43:27And I said, did we figure out what we're even doing?
43:28And usually they say, no, but we're going to keep trying.
43:31Okay.
43:33Do we figure out what we're doing?
43:36No, but we had a really good conversation, maybe a little bit.
43:39I think, yeah.
43:40I think, you know, when you talked about the fame thing, I hadn't quite framed it, and
43:46for some reason, I sort of clicked into place a little bit about how I am definitely
43:51not comfortable with it being too close.
43:53It's fascinating to watch someone who has, like, really kind of, like, approached the
44:00upper echelons of that, and then run away, you know?
44:05Yeah.
44:06Yeah.
44:06You know?
44:07It doesn't make me comfortable.
44:08Yeah.
44:09Yeah.
44:09And, like, honestly, I think sometimes you talk to people, and, you know, they'll be like,
44:16oh, you talk to notable people for a living, you know, what are they like, or whatever,
44:22and you're like, they're not like anything, they're just people, but certain people in
44:29certain levels of fame, I'm like, you would, this life is actually insane.
44:32Like, there's no communicating to you how different this is from, like, whatever you
44:37know and are familiar with, you know?
44:39Yeah.
44:40No, I hear what you're saying, and I agree.
44:43Yeah.
44:43I agree, and I think it's, because what I think what happens is it can start to warp
44:49isn't necessarily, it changes you.
44:50It can change you.
44:51And as an actor, I don't, that, I don't, I have to come, I mean, I'm a person, you
44:56know what I mean?
44:56I've got to create from what's in here that's got to be all of the mess, you know what I
45:01mean?
45:01And all the good stuff and all the bad stuff.
45:03And then I've got to, and if I start, I don't know, believing I'm something else,
45:08then I don't have anything to work with.
45:11Yeah.
45:12If that makes sense.
45:12But, I mean, you know, you're so young when you start, like, that's actually the classic
45:16person who gets their brain completely ruined by this experience.
45:19Yeah, yeah.
45:20Which is, in some ways, I think what happened to me might have been, is, actually, I've
45:25come to terms with is a blessing, you know what I mean?
45:26The fact that suddenly I wasn't catapulted into five Dune pictures, and God knows what
45:31else would have happened, you know?
45:33So, in some ways, I've kind of, it was like a, you know, a nice warm bath, you know what
45:42I mean, and then we started to rebuild again, and rebuilding in a very interesting, and ultimately
45:47turned out to be a very interesting way, which I'm very proud of and happy about.
45:50Thanks for doing it.
45:51Yeah, the pleasure.
45:52I really enjoyed this.
45:53It was nice talking with you.
45:55You're going to go far, kid.
45:56You're going to go far, kid.
45:58You're going to go far, kid.