- 4 hours ago
John invites Thison to share his experience growing up as a second-generation follower of William Branham in India. Thison describes his family's connection to Paul Asir Lari, an isolated childhood shaped by strict religious rules, his visits to the Voice of God Recordings office in Chennai, and the questions that gradually developed as he compared what he had been taught with the Bible.
Thison explains the family conflict that became a major turning point, his questions about serpent seed, interracial and intercaste marriage, prophecy, evangelism, authority, and fear-based religion, and the research that eventually led him to reconsider Branham's teachings. John and Thison also discuss what can trigger someone to question a deeply rooted belief system and the difficulty of helping family members who remain committed to it.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
07:29 Growing Up in the Message in India
17:18 Branham’s India Prophecy and Questions About Its Fulfillment
30:40 Defending Branham and the Message
32:36 The Breaking Point That Changed Everything
42:27 Serpent Seed, Fear, and the Absence of Love
52:45 Advice for People Still in the Message
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Thison explains the family conflict that became a major turning point, his questions about serpent seed, interracial and intercaste marriage, prophecy, evangelism, authority, and fear-based religion, and the research that eventually led him to reconsider Branham's teachings. John and Thison also discuss what can trigger someone to question a deeply rooted belief system and the difficulty of helping family members who remain committed to it.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
07:29 Growing Up in the Message in India
17:18 Branham’s India Prophecy and Questions About Its Fulfillment
30:40 Defending Branham and the Message
32:36 The Breaking Point That Changed Everything
42:27 Serpent Seed, Fear, and the Absence of Love
52:45 Advice for People Still in the Message
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Thassan Nadar, former member of The Message.
00:48Thassan, it's good to have you on finally to talk about your experience in The Message.
00:52I've been in contact with people from India who were impacted by William Branham's cult following.
00:58I think you might be the first person on the podcast from India, if I remember correctly.
01:02But I'm really fascinated to learn more because how it spread in the United States and Canada is much different
01:10than how it spread in India.
01:11And the belief system, although the core beliefs may be similar, it is quite different.
01:16So thank you so much for joining.
01:18If you could tell everybody just a little bit about yourself.
01:22Hi, this is Thassan Nadar.
01:25And, you know, I am from India, from a state called Tamil Nadu.
01:31But right now I stay in Mumbai, which is in Maharashtra for work.
01:38And I am from, you know, my almost six generations, you know, we were Christians.
01:47I think when British came to India, you know, my grandparents, great grandparents, they must have got, you know, converted.
01:55And then, you know, as far as I know, I am the sixth generation, I know, Christian.
02:00So I was born and brought up in a Christian background and second generation in Brangnamism, basically.
02:09So my dad, there is a link between Brangnam and my dad, which is, I am sure you've heard of
02:21Paul Asir Lari.
02:23I don't know if you know him.
02:25So I've seen all your podcasts, you know, the documentary about William Brangnam's life history, you know, 39 episodes or
02:34something like that.
02:36So I've seen his picture in your last podcast.
02:41So I thought, you know, there must be something you know about him, you know.
02:46So, so, so, yeah, so Paul Asir Lari and his son, Dave Weave, okay, and my father are friends.
02:57So that's how my father is like hardcore Brangnam follower, you know, till date.
03:07And I am also recently, you know, started coming out of it.
03:13It's been two months, you know, after watching all your videos and all that and doing a lot of research
03:18on my own.
03:21And, you know, started coming out of it.
03:25You know, I wouldn't say that I'm 100% out of it because it's really hard, you know, since I
03:34am 28 years old and I was born and brought up in that atmosphere.
03:43And eventually I will tell you, you know, about my childhood, you know, how I was, you know, born and
03:49brought up till the age of 28 years old.
03:52And now you will get a better idea of, you know, the history and where I'm coming from, you know,
03:59what I went through.
04:01I'm very interested to hear that.
04:03I'm also interested to know what connected your father to Paul Asir Lari.
04:08Yes, we did mention him.
04:10He's the person who was connected to Brangnam, who was to spread the message to India.
04:15And he claimed that the moon landing was the return of Jesus Christ or something like this.
04:21He actually came to the United States talking about this weird doctrine.
04:25What connected your family to him?
04:27I'm not exactly, you know, aware of how they become friends.
04:33But then we are basically, you could say, long relatives, you know, same surname, you know.
04:42So, obviously, my dad had a lot of friends.
04:48And my grandfather was all Protestants, of course.
04:56And they were, my grandfather was a leader of, you know, church.
05:01You know, he used to assign pastors to particular churches.
05:04And, you know, he used to hire people for, you know, a lot of schools are owned by churches.
05:10You know, he used to do all the admin works.
05:14And he was in a position.
05:16And my dad was born and brought up with that background.
05:21And he knows what happens in the, from the administration point of view.
05:28It's not, people think, you know, everyone is holy.
05:32But then it is actually not, you know, they run behind money.
05:36So, my dad is kind of on a verge to come out of his belief, you know, the local church.
05:43Because there is no sincerity in what they do.
05:48And that's how I think, if I'm not wrong, you know.
05:52He was inquiring about, he was talking, I mean, he must have been talking to his friends.
06:00And then his friends must have gave him the messages, the books from Brenham, you know.
06:09If you come to my hometown, you know, the entire wall is full of his messages, basically.
06:18So, that's how he was, you know, got into this Brenhamism, I would say.
06:26Darrell Bock It's interesting you said that when you're behind the scenes, you see, and it's usually the money.
06:33That's one of the things that a lot of people who are in the leadership position, maybe not even pastor,
06:40but even just leadership,
06:41they start to see how things are operating.
06:44And they realize that this is a man-made operation, very much man-made.
06:48And then they hear things from behind the pulpit, the preacher saying, and God did this and that and the
06:54other.
06:54Well, sometimes it's actually the administrator who did this, that, and the other to bring the money in or to
07:00set up the scenario.
07:02That's something that is common to all churches.
07:05It's not just Brenhamism.
07:06But in Brenhamism, because everything is over-spiritualized, there's always this aspect of God did this thing.
07:13And sometimes it'll be a human who gets offended because the human actually did really hard work for whatever was
07:20the spiritualized thing.
07:22So I can very much relate to you on this.
07:25What was it like for you growing up in that type of environment?
07:28I was never, we didn't go to the local church.
07:34And there is no message church nearby my place.
07:38I was from, I was born and born in a village.
07:42And the only message believer I would say from that village is my dad.
07:46And, and of course, he's got a lot of friends.
07:49And as I said earlier, you know, Davey and Paula Sirrari, all those, you know, a lot of friends.
07:55They do follow Brenhamism.
08:00And when I was a kid, we were not allowed to mingle with anyone in our village.
08:09So, you know, I have one younger brother and sister.
08:14We totaled three, three children to my, for my dad.
08:21And we stayed home.
08:23The only time that we go out is for school.
08:26You know, so the van comes in, you know, we go to the school and come back.
08:31That's it.
08:32So, there's, there was, um, when my dad is around, we can't watch any television, you know, and, um, uh,
08:43a lot of, um, but I, before I, but I, I would like to be a little more cautious in
08:51what I say.
08:51I love my dad.
08:53Um, I love my dad till this day.
08:57And I will love him also in future.
09:02And, um, um, he was very strict and, uh, he used to, you know, quote some, you know, quote Bible
09:12words, you know, you'll have to be stricter with your, uh, children.
09:16And he used to beat us.
09:18And, um, when we go to school, you know, teachers used to be little bit, you know, sad about, um,
09:25all the markings that we have in our hand, you know.
09:27And, uh, that was one thing, a lot of things, um, but I, that never, uh, was a problem for
09:42me.
09:42Because, uh, since I was also born and brought up in that same, uh, environment, I was thinking that it
09:49is the right thing to do.
09:50Um, I also has the same belief system, you know.
09:54Um, uh, so I was, uh, always, you know, admired my dad, you know, I wanted to be like him
10:01when I grew up also.
10:02Um, and, um, yeah, we were never going, uh, to local churches.
10:08Every, the good thing about my childhood was, uh, I've heard in, uh, message churches, you know, every Wednesday or
10:17Saturday or Sunday, weekly, twice, they just, uh, you know, play the radio and, uh, all the followers, they used
10:25to listen to the message.
10:27But then, um, my dad, uh, he never did that.
10:30So, uh, every Sunday, we used to sit as a family and then we used to read, uh, Bible, not
10:37the message book.
10:38Even though my dad spends, you know, one or two hours reading the message on his own.
10:43But he never read the message to us.
10:46He always gave the book and then he told us to read.
10:49And, um, so that is one good thing, which, uh, my dad did, I would say.
10:54So, every, uh, Sunday, we used to read Bible.
10:58And, um, so, from my childhood, you know, so initially once or twice, you know, we completed the Bible and
11:06then I understood the entire, um, Bible, you know, like a storyline, you know, what happened.
11:14And, um, as I, you know, got to know about more Christianity, um, so as I got older, I used
11:23to question my dad, you know, uh, during, um, our, uh, Bible study.
11:28So, Bible says this, um, but, um, you said, you know, but you are saying this, why it is against
11:38Bible.
11:38So, for example, um, you know, inter-caste marriage, you know, it is, I have, I used to tell, tell
11:46my dad, you know, a lot of people, uh, married, uh, outside, uh, the people of Israel, you know.
11:53And, um, um, for example, Joseph got married, Moses got married and all.
11:58So, my dad is like, um, hardcore, uh, uh, how do you say, against inter-caste marriage.
12:06So, um, and he's against, um, low marriage also.
12:11So, um, only arranged marriage and, uh, uh, uh, talking to girls is, like, completely prohibited, uh, you know, um,
12:22which I never had any complaints, I would say.
12:26Um, but then, um, eventually I started questioning my dad, you know, during, uh, Sundays when, uh, he was reading
12:33Bible, you know.
12:34I used to tell him, you know, Bible says this, but you are, you are saying this, what is the
12:39difference, why?
12:40And then, it was, so we start Bible reading and it is always, uh, argument between me and dad and
12:48us, I got older.
12:49And then, um, eventually, um, I think, uh, when I was around 22 or 23, I stopped, uh, um, um,
13:01attending the Bible study also, even though it was just, uh, five of us family member.
13:06So, um, the reason, uh, was, uh, as I said earlier, my dad, you know, came out of the local
13:15churches because there is no sincerity in what they are doing.
13:18So, if you go to local church, it is not like a church in the U.S.
13:23I admire a lot of church in the U.S., you know, admire as in, no, um, there is, there
13:30is a lot of, um, since I watch a lot of YouTube videos, there is a lot of, uh, as
13:36you said earlier, you know, people go behind money and all that leadership or, uh, not that great.
13:42But then still, uh, they know the Bible, you know, they read the Bible and they try to teach the
13:47Bible, you know, and people who goes to the church, you know, they go, um, to worship God.
13:54But then, uh, in India, since British came and, uh, you know, converted people, that sincerity is, is with very
14:04few people.
14:05You know, they, you know, they, they go to church for, um, job and, you know, they just, um, think
14:13that if I go to church and pay some money, I'll be happy for next six days.
14:18Yeah.
14:18So, so God will be with me.
14:22And so, so that, that's the mentality.
14:25There is no sincere fellowship with God.
14:27So that's why my dad came out of the church, you know, I came out of the Bible reading session
14:33because it, there is, the, the, the sincerity.
14:35Sincerity is not there anymore.
14:36When I was a kid, the, the curiosity and sincerity was not there.
14:40So it, it has become more of an argument and I don't agree with him.
14:45I know he, he used, that is because I don't blame my dad.
14:50That is because of his belief in the message.
14:54So it's like a mosque or, uh, it's like a filter, you know?
15:00So, uh, his belief, he has a, um, mosque reading the Bible, you know?
15:07So, so what is written in the Bible goes through that mosque and he gets it through the message.
15:15So, um, I'm, after looking at your videos, I realized, you know, Brenna Mosh, you know, my, my dad always
15:24used to say, uh, since I told, I was talking about intercast marriage, my dad always used to say, you
15:33know, in the, when God created humans, he, he, they can only, uh, every, rose will produce rose only.
15:42And, um, on same kind, you know, and, um, humans.
15:47So, Brenna Mosh, I think he used to use that example in one of his message.
15:52I got an idea of, rough idea of what it was, because after looking at your podcast, podcast, I came
16:01to know, you know, he was a part of the Ku Klux Klan and white supremacism.
16:06And, uh, he doesn't like, um, you know, black mixing with white.
16:11I don't know if it is offensive or not.
16:13I'm sorry if it is offensive.
16:15It is offensive, but that's the funny part.
16:17It is offensive and he said it.
16:20And therefore, if he is a prophet, why is he saying things that are offensive?
16:23In fact, one of the troubles that I have confidentially and now out into the open and the public, one
16:30of the biggest troubles I have is I'm publishing all this research about Branham on platforms that filter offensive content.
16:38It is extremely difficult to do this because I'm directly quoting what the man said and it is highly offensive
16:44and you should never say these things.
16:46And so this has turned into a problem.
16:48The interesting part about this, I also know the translators at Voice of God Recordings, the headquarters, this is one
16:55of the same problems they face as they're producing material that goes into other countries.
16:59You can't produce this type of material without being highly censored, yet they have to produce the message.
17:05How do you do it?
17:06It's, it's a problem.
17:08So I came to realize if you're a translator, you know that he's saying these things because you're trying to
17:14alter the offensive and make it not offensive.
17:18But it's, it's such a fascinating history.
17:20One of the things, one of the reasons why I've wanted to have somebody on from India, I was early
17:26in my research and I was trying to just simply determine, was he a false prophet or was he a
17:31true prophet?
17:32And every prophecy that I examine, it kept changing over time.
17:37So the prophecy began one way and it would shift into another way.
17:41And I'm going through all of this and I found this place where you've probably heard it.
17:45He says, if any one single detail of my prophecy is wrong, I will hang a sign on my back
17:51and say false prophet.
17:53Well, then I, I get to the India prophecy and he says, you mark my words.
17:58Whenever I go into India, you'll read in the newspapers of thousands times, 10,000 being saved.
18:04And then he comes back and he says, well, you know, the prophecy of India didn't turn out like it
18:09was supposed to.
18:11So he's admitting false prophecy, right?
18:13Well, fast forward a few years, I'm publishing my research.
18:17I'm finally come to the conclusion.
18:18Yes, he was a false prophet and he had false prophecy and he should have hung the own, his own
18:24sign on his back.
18:25I get to talking to a person from India and they say, well, that prophecy actually came true.
18:31And I stopped and I thought about it and I asked myself, well, if it did come true, why was
18:38it not in the newspapers?
18:39Like he said, and they're ignoring that detail, right?
18:41And they said basically that, well, over time, now years later, we have thousands times 10,000 of message people
18:50in India.
18:51And I still question this because I don't think it's that big, which I'll ask you that in just a
18:55second.
18:56But it all goes back to the twisting of words.
18:59You mentioned your father said, which he's repeating Branham.
19:03He says that, yes, William Branham was saying these racist things, but we like the rose to produce the rose.
19:10Branham would say every tree should bear its own fruit.
19:13So we have the white tree, we have the black tree.
19:16He had different ways of saying it.
19:18That works for a person who doesn't know how to critically think.
19:22You say, yes, well, this is a rose.
19:24And yes, the next one is a rose.
19:26But the person who's critically thinking goes back and say, wait a minute, we're not talking about roses.
19:30We're talking about humans.
19:31And humans go back to Adam and Eve.
19:34There are only two.
19:36So how can you say this?
19:38There are only two.
19:39So for a person who's critically thinking and the man says if one single detail is wrong with a prophecy,
19:45I'm a false prophet.
19:46And the newspapers didn't print of thousands times 10,000.
19:50What do you do with this?
19:52Did they ever talk about this prophecy there whenever you were in the group?
19:56And also, do you think there's even close to that many people in the message in India?
20:01Okay, that's a good question.
20:04Before I jump answering that question, that was the exact argument I used to make, you know, with my dad.
20:12I told you that I was in New Zealand for one and a few years.
20:16I was doing my flight training over there.
20:18So I met a friend from Papua New Guinea.
20:22And I always, you know, ask questions.
20:24I question, okay, we are reading this Bible.
20:28Where it came from?
20:29Okay, 1600s, you know.
20:31There is a guy called King James.
20:33He, you know, compiled everything.
20:35He created a Bible and then it got translated and all that.
20:40So I used to do my own research.
20:42And I was talking to him.
20:46I was asking him about, you know, in our schools, we study about evolution and all that.
20:52But Bible doesn't talk about evolution.
20:55God created Adam and Eve.
20:56You know, we didn't come from a monkey.
20:59So what do you think about that, you know?
21:01And we have seen evidences for, you know, dinosaurs and all that.
21:11So Bible doesn't talk about it, you know.
21:14How do you explain all that?
21:16And he was like, he pointed me to someone called Ken Hovind in the U.S.
21:21So I don't know if you know him or not.
21:24He is based out of Alabama in the U.S.
21:30So his ministry is all about creation, you know, how God created, how dinosaurs, you know,
21:37were there in the world, you know, how everything, you know.
21:42So he used to say, you know, used to quote the same quote, you know,
21:51humans are supposed to produce humans.
21:53You know, monkey is supposed to produce monkey, you know.
21:56And when, you know, rose is supposed to produce rose.
22:01That is what the God had designed.
22:03And not, there is no distinction between humans, you know.
22:09We are all from our same parent, you know.
22:12And we'll talk about serpent seed also a little later.
22:16But yeah, we all came from Adam and Eve.
22:20And we were supposed to produce human, not monkey.
22:23That's what Bible says.
22:25It is not talking about inter-cast marriage or interracial marriage among humans.
22:31So that is what the argument I usually, you know, keep with my dad.
22:38And obviously, he doesn't agree with it.
22:40And then we used to fight.
22:41And then there's no peace in the Bible study.
22:46And coming back to your question, to answer your question,
22:49As far as I know, maybe 50 to 100 people in my state, I would say, follows a message.
23:00And I would say sincerely, they follow his message.
23:06Maybe a little more than that.
23:07But definitely not 10, 10,000s of people, you know.
23:12And I think you just put it in YouTube.
23:20And there are a few preachers from India, you know.
23:23They talk.
23:23They talk about brennamism.
23:27There is a picture of his, you know.
23:30They hang his picture.
23:32And they talk about it.
23:34They talk about him.
23:35But as far as I know, the numbers are very, very less.
23:39And I have visited the headquarters in India.
23:44They have an office in Chennai.
23:48I think Voice of God recording office in Chennai.
23:53I visited twice so far.
23:57Once I went alone.
23:58And second, I went with my dad.
24:01That was a year back.
24:03Just one year back, I went with my dad.
24:06And I think 2017 or 18, I went alone.
24:10When I went to, initially, first time when I went to that office in Chennai.
24:20So, they were like, I was, I was like hardcore.
24:25I was also a believer, you know.
24:27I was thinking brennam was the seventh, second Elijah, you know.
24:33And I was believing all his messages, you know.
24:36I was believing all his sermons, you know, predestination, serpents, seeds, whatever brennam sees, I used to believe.
24:46So, I went with that sincerity in my heart, you know.
24:49And then, when I went, the way they behaved, I felt a little bit like how the local churches in
24:59India behave.
25:00So, same behavior, you know.
25:03And they were giving out iPads.
25:06And I was like, why are you giving me an iPad?
25:09Everyone have phones, you know.
25:11We can just download that table app.
25:14All the messages, you know, it comes.
25:16But, there's no point giving me an iPad.
25:20You can give it to someone who doesn't have privilege to own a mobile phone, you know.
25:27So, that time I understood something that, you know, they are also, the leadership also, a little bit of running
25:33behind money.
25:35I told my dad also.
25:36But, of course, you know, he never paid attention to all this because of the mask that he was on.
25:42So, that was a little bit.
25:49When I went, I could sense it was not 100% genuine, you know.
25:55And I could see people behaving in such a way which is based on, you know, which is behind money.
26:06And, second time when I went, they still remembered me.
26:11After seven, eight years, I went back to the office.
26:15They still remember me.
26:15I think very less people, they go and visit the office.
26:25And, of course, my dad went.
26:27And, he bought all the messages again, the new copies of all his sermons.
26:33You know, my dad is not a digital person.
26:35He is like old school.
26:37He wanted to read from the book.
26:39So, he bought all the messages again.
26:41It was one year back.
26:43Since one year back also, I was into the message.
26:48But, again, to your question, Dan, I would say from what I know, it's very, very less.
26:55Maybe in thousands.
26:57Thousands as in, like, max to max, 5,000 to 10,000.
27:01That's what I assumed.
27:02I've done some studies, and it's very hard to prove the numbers because a lot of the people who worship
27:09Branham are worshiping in their homes.
27:11So, you might have this home family, but if you count the homes, there can't be that many because if
27:16there were enough homes in a city, then the city would have a gathering, and the gathering, they would meet
27:20each other and communicate in a church setting.
27:23So, you have to believe that it's only a small, small number.
27:27But that's just one of the things that woke me up was the fact that there were prophecies that had
27:33huge problems.
27:35The other thing was, ironically, like you said, the money and the culture.
27:38I don't know that many people besides you have talked about the culture on the podcast, but when you go
27:45to headquarters, it is the sudden shock that not many people experience who have never been there because they're going
27:53thinking almost like Mecca.
27:54I go to Mecca.
27:55It's this holy place.
27:56Everybody's holy.
27:58They're righteous.
27:59Everybody's going to be so filled with the Spirit because they're right here in the city where all of this
28:03happened.
28:04And then you get there, and especially those who come from overseas to this location, and you find the culture
28:12is just entirely different than you expected.
28:14In fact, in some ways, it's offensive to the cultures who come in here.
28:18And so, they leave thinking, wait a minute, that doesn't feel right.
28:22It doesn't sit right with my soul.
28:24And then they leave.
28:25And the irony of this, because I'm in IT and I work with other cultures.
28:30I had a cultural shell shock whenever I entered my first IT role, and I'm working with people from India
28:37and Pakistan, and I think we had one Egyptian, all kinds of different cultures.
28:42And I realized that my redneck way of talking was offensive to people, and I had to change my language.
28:49Well, people who are in this movement, who are in leadership roles, should have that same ambition.
28:56They should change their language to fit all of the multicultural aspects.
29:02But instead, they want to be hardcore, whatever it is they believe and have and the culture they have, as
29:08though it's superior.
29:10And that was really what bothered me when I, when my family moved to Jeffersonville and I was watching this
29:16interaction, after me having been exposed to other cultures, I realized that this person is offending this person.
29:25This person would like for them not to be offended, and the other person just simply doesn't care.
29:30And the doesn't care bothered me.
29:32It really did.
29:32So, I'm one of the people who moved to Mecca and realized, Mecca's not for me.
29:40Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
29:48reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
29:54You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
30:01On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
30:09John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
30:15You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
30:22If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
30:28top.
30:28And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
30:34watching.
30:35On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
30:40I can relate to what you're saying, you know, when I watch your, of course, you are very close to
30:46Branham family.
30:49And my chain is like far behind yours, comparing to yours.
30:55But then I used to do the same thing when I was in school.
31:01So, you know, I was, so the area, the part I am from, a lot of Christians are there.
31:10So, it's like southern most part of India.
31:14Okay.
31:14So, where a lot of British ministers, you know, conversion happened.
31:23So, I was going to a Christian school.
31:27So, most of the, you know, students who were over there, you know, they were also Christians.
31:33So, we used to always, you know, argue with them.
31:36And he used to say, Bible says this.
31:38But Branham says this, you know, this is what it is.
31:41Have you ever read Branham?
31:42You should read Branham.
31:43How can you ignore him, you know?
31:45He is the prophet from God, you know?
31:49And we are, I always used to quote, you know, Malachi chapter 4, right?
31:57You know, the prophet before the day of the Lord.
32:03There's a verse, you know, 4, 5 and 6.
32:06And I used to always argue with my friends, you know, and defending Branham.
32:12And they were like, you have Bible.
32:16Why do you want to read about, you know, why do you want, why are you asking us to follow
32:22this book?
32:22Rather than, you know, following the Bible, which is given to us, you know, by God.
32:28But yeah, as when I was watching your YouTube videos, you know, I could always relate what you must have
32:35gone through.
32:36So, and more about my childhood, I would say the breaking point for me was, again, it was my dad
32:46only.
32:46So, it started from a little argument in Bible studies and it went to, so, till 12th, I was with
33:00my parents.
33:00After that, you know, I was never home.
33:03I was in New Zealand.
33:04I was in Abu Dhabi for some time.
33:08I was in Delhi.
33:09So, I was just, you know, going here and there.
33:13I was obeying with a lot of people.
33:16But then, I was also a message believer.
33:19I never, you know, smoked or, you know, of course, as per my dad's rule, I can't, you know, talk
33:27to girls.
33:28I can't, you know, go on a date.
33:31No alcohol.
33:35And, what do you call it?
33:37So, I was following all that rules, whatever my dad was saying.
33:44But it was just not enough for him.
33:47You know, once I was going out with one of my colleagues.
33:53So, he also works with me, my colleague.
33:58And my, so, so, we are friends from 2019 to 2024-25, you know, till date.
34:08The incident happened 2024-25.
34:12So, seven years of friendship.
34:15And, of course, if they plan for a dinner or, you know, lunch, you know, they invite me, you know,
34:22and then I go for, go with them to have a dinner and then we talk about what happens, this
34:27and there.
34:27And, you know, he'll come back.
34:32For me, that is not wrong.
34:33But for my dad, it was wrong.
34:37The reason is there are girls also in that group.
34:40Because, fortunately, in corporate world, you know, we have to work with female co-workers as well.
34:49And so, I went, once I went out with one of my colleagues, he was, he, and then his wife,
34:58and one more female co-worker.
35:00She was married.
35:02Okay.
35:02So, we four of us went for lunch and somehow my mom came to know.
35:09And then my mom told my dad and then my dad called me and then he was shouting at me
35:14saying,
35:15you know, you are, you are spiritually dead.
35:22So, you rather just go crash the car somewhere and die.
35:27Don't come back home.
35:29So, that is when I was so upset because I love my dad so much.
35:35And I admire him because he had done a lot of things for me and my, my brother and my
35:45sister, you know.
35:46So, he paid a lot of money for my studies, my sibling studies also.
35:52They are all well doing now.
35:54By God's grace, of course.
35:57But then, my dad was shouting at me saying, you know, don't go, don't come home.
36:04You are spiritually dead.
36:06And, you know, just go crash the car and, you know, just die.
36:12Just for going out with friends for a lunch.
36:18And that is when it, it triggered me.
36:20So, I didn't rape anyone.
36:23I didn't, you know, drink alcohol or, you know, went and did something wrong or I was not smoking.
36:31I was not taking drugs, you know.
36:34I was not doing anything illegal.
36:36Okay.
36:37For something so small, he was reacting.
36:46Unreasonable.
36:48It's, it's not proportion to the, the punishment doesn't fit the crime, you know.
36:54So, that is when it triggered me there is something wrong.
36:57Because, um, the person who is very close to you, who you love the most, you know, asking you to
37:05go and die for no reason, you know.
37:08Um, after you did a lot to the family, uh, I am also a human, you should treat me.
37:18I am not saying that I am perfect.
37:19I am also imperfect.
37:22No one is perfect in front of God.
37:24Right?
37:25That's why, uh, he died for our sin.
37:27Um, and, um, he, um, you believe in him and, um, as it is written in the Bible, you love
37:36your God with all your, um, heart, mind and body and also you love your neighbors.
37:44Uh, you know, he had forgiven and just, if someone forgave, you know, forgiven you for a hundred rupees, a
37:52hundred rupees, you can forgive someone for at least one rupee, you know, that he had forgiven us for a
37:58lot of sins that we had made or in our mind.
38:02A lot of people love God with body, but not with mind and, uh, heart, you know, in this is
38:10not perfect.
38:10Like, this is imperfect, this is also imperfect.
38:13So, but God had forgiven all this and it is all about love.
38:20But then, uh, I was, uh, after that point, I started questioning everything from, you know, the entire childhood.
38:29I was never in, so when I go home, it was not love, you know, it was just fear.
38:35My dad would say this, okay, if I put on the TV, my dad will shout at me.
38:40So before my dad comes home, we'll just stand it off and then run and then, you know, pretend like
38:45we are studying, you know, so, so this is what we used to do.
38:51So I was just thinking, um, it was, there was no love, you know, it was just fear.
39:00I know we have to worship and, uh, obey Lord with fear and also love.
39:08Only with fear or the, you, you can, you cannot, you know, um, worship or, uh, follow someone or, um,
39:19do something to someone out of fear only.
39:22You should, you should, it, it should be both, you know, fear and love.
39:26So I never felt that love from my, uh, from childhood.
39:31And that's when I realized and then started thinking, uh, doing my own research and, um, found out, uh, I,
39:40I, I never knew you, you know,
39:42Um, I came out of that belief system on my own, doing my own research and then two, three months
39:51back when I was just, I, I've got, I had some time.
39:55I was just, uh, you know, typing William Brigham false prophet, prophet, and then a lot of videos came and,
40:02uh, I saw your videos and started watching all your videos, especially your video with, uh, uh, I think his
40:11name was Charles Paisley, your friend.
40:16Um, he wrote two books.
40:18I think I bought one book also.
40:20It's there in Amazon Kindle.
40:22So, um, yeah.
40:24Um, so I started watching your videos and, uh, the, especially the documentary that you made, uh, by, uh, William
40:32Branham.
40:32So after watching all the documentary and it suddenly, it all, you know, started making sense.
40:39Um, you know, and then, um, obviously I, I always used to question my dad about this open seat also,
40:48because, um, we are Christians today in India.
40:51Uh, that is because of the gospel that was, uh, you know, the, a lot of people sacrificed their life
40:59for our salvation.
41:00If you come to my hometown, there are, uh, there is a compound, in that compound, there are a lot
41:07of, uh, um, symmetry.
41:11It is all people who died during, uh, um, conversion, you know, like they are trying to preach the gospel
41:18and something happened.
41:19They died.
41:20So, uh, it's like a memorial.
41:22A lot of, uh, British people, you know, they died for our salvation.
41:29But, uh, if you, uh, look, uh, the world, uh, from the point of serpent seed, it is like, what
41:38is the point of spreading the gospel?
41:40If you are already a son of, uh, um, you know, Adam and son of Lucifer, what, so if you
41:49are saved by the birth, there is no, what is the point?
41:52You know, there is no point for, uh, we wouldn't have, if British would have thought the same thing, you
42:02know, um, we are serpent seeds, you know, sorry.
42:05We are, uh, son of Adam and those, uh, Indians somewhere around on the corner of the world, you know,
42:12they are all, uh, serpent seeds.
42:14Why should we go and die, um, for them, you know, if they would have thought, we would have, I
42:19would have never became a Christian or I would have never, you know, God would have saved or, uh, the
42:27salvation I wouldn't have received, you know.
42:29That's really, for me, the most interesting part of this, because in my journey, there were a lot of things
42:35that I went through in my mind to start to come out of it.
42:39Learning the false prophecies, learning the way that he just simply twisted truth about himself to make himself seem bigger.
42:47That was really problematic for me because there's only one type of person who does this.
42:52And I, it didn't sit right with me, but then whenever I discovered, like you said, the anti-Semitism, the
42:58white supremacy, I was thinking exactly what you just said.
43:02If you're saved by your bloodline, then why do you even need the gospel?
43:06It doesn't make sense.
43:08Only a hate, only the hate groups do this.
43:10And then I started thinking about the other thing that you said.
43:14I know many, many people that describe their family relationships the same way.
43:19There just simply wasn't much love.
43:21There was only fear in the children to the parents.
43:24When I first started noticing that there was a pattern, I thought, well, maybe it's just, maybe there's just a
43:30lot of parents who aren't very good people.
43:32But then I started thinking about exactly what you said, the bloodlines, the white supremacy, the hate groups.
43:40And then I realized this is a doctrine that breeds hate.
43:42So it's children, as it breeds, will continue to breed hate.
43:46When you're in that mindset, you start to think differently, not only about just the gospel and the people, but
43:52also even your own children.
43:54You want to hate the things that they might do that would be outside of your belief set.
44:00And so you target your hatred at them, thinking that will change them.
44:03But that's not the way that Christianity works.
44:06Christianity teaches through love, not hate.
44:08Exactly.
44:13I never heard talk, you know, my dad talks about gospel or, you know, soul winning that I like in
44:26U.S. a lot.
44:29But people actually believe in God, not for the money, but for a relationship with God.
44:38I think that is why United States is still number one country in the world, you know.
44:47It's because of, in a country of Sodom, just because of one family, you know, God was protecting the entire
44:59country.
45:00It's like the few Christians in the United States, you know, the blessing of God is still there, you know,
45:08I would say.
45:09And within this brandamism or within the people who follow the message, you know, I've never seen someone giving more
45:24attention for, importance for soul winning or preaching the gospel or feeling bad for your neighbor, you know.
45:35And because there is no love, because from a message point of view, it is just, he's just another sop
45:45and seed, you know.
45:48But if you remove that doctrine and you look at someone, he's also created like me or he's also created
46:01with the same image of God, you know.
46:03And he can also be saved.
46:08So, eventually, you will try to influence him with your good works and, you know, try to win him over
46:16for God.
46:18But then, that thing is not there in message, you know, following people, I would say.
46:24Or at least, I've never seen that in my dad or anyone who follows the message in my area, at
46:38least.
46:39And, but my, it's like, it's, if you read Matthew 23, Jesus talks about, you know, people paying more importance
46:50to gold and sacrifice than actual God.
46:54But, um, the sincerity in a relationship with God is not the, rather than, you know, don't watch TV, don't
47:04do this, don't talk to girls, don't go outside, uh, you stay inside the house, you do your work, that's
47:11it.
47:12You should not do anything.
47:13It's more about the doing, not the actual relationship with God, I would say.
47:21So, the, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's not, I felt like it is not only in, uh, uh, message or,
47:32uh, message believing this thing.
47:35The spirit is there in a lot of other denominations also, I would say.
47:39For example, I, as I said, you know, I watch a lot of YouTube videos, um, for my own research
47:46or my own understanding, you know, trying to know God better.
47:52Um, I came across this, um, I think, Stephen Anderson.
47:57And, uh, he's, uh, part of, uh, independent, faithful, independent Baptist church, some, something like that.
48:05It, he's, his headquarters in, uh, Arizona, uh, Phoenix.
48:10So, uh, he was, uh, uh, uh, he has a lot of kids.
48:15His four, uh, elder kids, you know, they just came out and told everyone that my parents were very abusive
48:24and, you know, they were just, uh, um, uh, he used to beat my mom.
48:30Um, he used to beat us, uh, saying, uh, again, quoting the verse from Bible, you know, you should, um,
48:37do this to your kid.
48:38But for what?
48:40You know, if, if the kid is doing actual wrong, then you, you know, punish him so that he will
48:47not do it again.
48:48But then punishment should deserve, like, fit the crime, you know, that, that was not there.
48:55It is just punishment, punishment, punishment for his own sake, I would say, or, uh, he, he wanted the children
49:03in certain way and, um, uh, to implement that.
49:08If I punish him often, my kids will be like this, you know, some, some belief they have, you know,
49:14it's, I, I would say it's, uh, it's a different spirit or I don't know.
49:19So, uh, so, uh, he has nothing to do with a message or any, uh, uh, Bhanam influence.
49:25But still, even though he's from a Baptist background, uh, he was also behaving in such a way that, um,
49:35it's almost the same way, I would say.
49:38Um, his kids, his own kids, you know, came out of his church.
49:43Hey, they came out of the, their, uh, house and, you know, started telling people about the abuses they were
49:49going through.
49:52Um, I, I feel like that is mainly because people, people as in everyone, including me or, uh, everyone, they
50:03wanted someone between God and, uh, him, ourselves, you know.
50:08Um, you, in, in, in real Christianity, you don't need that.
50:13You, you, you can have a direct relationship with God.
50:18Uh, I stay alone in, uh, Mumbai, you know.
50:21Uh, nobody is there.
50:23There is nobody to call me.
50:25And, um, but still, I don't feel alone, you know.
50:28You can always have a relationship with the God, you know.
50:31Because, um, his Holy Spirit is inside you to guide you.
50:37And, um, uh, so, uh, you just, uh, but a lot of people, they think they should be the middleman,
50:49uh, between, uh, God and, uh, humans.
50:53You know, they think, uh, just because he follows certain rules and, um, he thinks that, um, he's superior to
51:01other humans, you know.
51:03And, uh, now I am the leader.
51:05So, you, I am close to God.
51:08This is what God says.
51:10You should do that.
51:12And, um, that spirit or that pride, it should not come into anyone's head.
51:17Uh, head, and I think people also should not give too much importance to pastors, you know.
51:25Uh, you might not agree with me, but then he's also just a human.
51:30He, so, he's also imperfect.
51:34Um, church should be something like, um, all believers gather in an area and then worship God.
51:45Church should be like that.
51:46For the, but then, uh, these days, church is like, there is one guy who's superior than everyone and he's
51:56trying to preach everyone.
51:58That will always lead to destruction, I think, in over a period of time, you know.
52:05Because everyone is human.
52:06Humans, uh, make mistakes.
52:09Uh, so, we should be aware of that and we should have a direct relationship with God.
52:16And, uh, obviously, you gather with people and, um, don't judge.
52:22You know, you love them.
52:24Uh, like, how, even though I am imperfect, God loves, uh, me.
52:30So, even though, you know, your neighbor is imperfect, you should love them.
52:35You know, you should give him the love that he doesn't deserve.
52:39So, that is Christianity.
52:41I, I've never seen that in a message following group.
52:45If you could give advice to people who are still trapped in the message system, what advice would you give
52:50them?
52:50I think being faithful to God, talking to God, I think the Holy Spirit will guide you.
52:56You can't, there is no one way because everyone is born and born in a different background, you know.
53:03I don't know which incident or what incident would trigger you.
53:07I think God will create a situation that triggers the question.
53:14And then, just genuine relationship with God, if you are trying to have, then obviously, I think, um, His God,
53:25Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth.
53:28Um, I can't say one way because I am also trying to figure out how I will tell my brother
53:35and how I am going to tell my sister.
53:38Because, obviously, they will not, uh, believe me.
53:43They will, of course, uh, think my, um, dad is right and I am wrong.
53:50So, uh, I am also, uh, waiting for that answer, you know.
53:56Time will, like, give the answers.
53:58Is there any triggering point for you, like, what triggered you, like, is that, what made you ask that first
54:07question?
54:07Is there any, um, incident that questioned your belief system?
54:14And how did you deal with it initially when you find out?
54:18Because I recently found out and because that is what made sense for what happened in my life.
54:26And, um, um, so is there any triggering point for you, like, what incident made you question your belief in
54:37the message?
54:38For me, there were a series of severely traumatic experiences back-to-back that just were happening and it was
54:46causing me to be so shaken.
54:48And the thought was occurring to me that we're supposed to be protected from all of this.
54:53We're told that we are the little bride, we're the elite, we're the ones who will be raptured.
54:58And we're under the protection of God for all of these things that can happen to us.
55:03And then they happened.
55:04And how do you explain this?
55:06And so what happens is when you have severely traumatic experiences, your brain tries to reconcile what happened with your
55:13situation.
55:14Through that reconciliation, I started just as simply examining my faith.
55:19And I realized that I didn't really understand why I believed what I believed.
55:25And I started looking into it and realizing that I should have looked into this years ago because none of
55:31it really makes any sense and large parts of it are just truly false.
55:35So I went on this journey basically because I had suffered through some trauma.
55:40Now other people who are in the support groups who have talked about their leaving, they came to similar conclusions
55:47based off of experience that you've talked about.
55:50Maybe family didn't treat them as they should have or maybe the people in the church weren't as Christian to
55:56outsiders as they should have been.
55:59There's usually a trigger for people whenever it challenges their core belief set.
56:05And that's really, if you're working with somebody and you're trying to help them escape, that's what you need to
56:09do.
56:09You need to find what is the thing that they truly believe most and is it really compatible with the
56:15message.
56:16Because nine times out of ten, you're going to find that those two are usually incompatible.
56:21There's not much that is compatible with a hate group.
56:24So thank you so much for doing this.
56:26Thank you. It was nice talking to you.
56:28Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
56:32You can find us at william-branum.org.
56:34For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
56:41the NAR.
56:42Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:55I love you.
56:58I love you.
57:02I love you.