- 3 hours ago
John and Cris discuss why people can become deeply attached to high-demand and high-control religious groups, beginning with vulnerability, the search for answers, and the sense of belonging that can make leaving difficult. They examine explanatory systems, cognitive closure, charismatic preaching, emotional experiences, and the way trust can shift toward a leader or movement.
Drawing on their experiences with charismatic and Branham-related environments, John and Cris explore how critical thinking can be weakened when spiritual advice becomes difficult to question. The conversation considers trust, church authority, Bible-based examination, inherited practices, burdensome rules, and the importance of testing teachings and leadership rather than accepting them solely because of an emotional experience.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:02 Vulnerability and the Cycle of Control
09:02 Emotional Highs and Explanatory Systems
12:03 Cognitive Closure and Finding a Church
18:04 When Reassurance Becomes Dependency
27:44 Trust, Prophecy, and Experience
33:04 Critical Thinking and Spiritual Advice
39:08 Giving, Authority, and the Holy Spirit
45:02 Testing Leadership and Biblical Claims
51:05 Rules, Burdens, and Freedom
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Drawing on their experiences with charismatic and Branham-related environments, John and Cris explore how critical thinking can be weakened when spiritual advice becomes difficult to question. The conversation considers trust, church authority, Bible-based examination, inherited practices, burdensome rules, and the importance of testing teachings and leadership rather than accepting them solely because of an emotional experience.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:02 Vulnerability and the Cycle of Control
09:02 Emotional Highs and Explanatory Systems
12:03 Cognitive Closure and Finding a Church
18:04 When Reassurance Becomes Dependency
27:44 Trust, Prophecy, and Experience
33:04 Critical Thinking and Spiritual Advice
39:08 Giving, Authority, and the Holy Spirit
45:02 Testing Leadership and Biblical Claims
51:05 Rules, Burdens, and Freedom
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Christian Arce, former charismatic in Latin America.
00:48Chris, it's good to be back and to talk about leaving a high-demand group.
00:52I have had many people ask me, what makes people stay in these things?
00:57And there are, you can actually read this in the comment feeds.
01:00People will listen to the our stories and they'll say, well, why in the world did you stay in this
01:04thing?
01:05And it's such a complicated issue because leaving for many people is just not that easy.
01:11They found something that they needed, a community, maybe a sense of direction or in many cases,
01:18it's just simply an answer that they were looking for during a difficult time in their lives.
01:22And the truth of the matter is that once you get into the community, sometimes it's very, very hard to
01:29get out of it.
01:30So I wanted to talk this through with you because you have some special insight.
01:34And I, you know, in talking with you, I've learned that what you're experiencing in Latin America is much like
01:40we have in the United States.
01:42So let's break this down.
01:44Why do people stay in these high-control groups?
01:46Hey, hello, John.
01:47Thank you for having me on the podcast again.
01:50And thanks, everyone watching.
01:52I hope this is very helpful for everyone.
01:56Absolutely.
01:57I know people will probably look at me and say, John, this is out of your element.
02:02You were born and raised in the group that you escaped.
02:04You and your family escaped.
02:06And so you have no frame of reference to this thing that we're about to talk about in this podcast.
02:10However, I have worked with many people who were in the support groups who came into the high-demand group
02:18or high-control group after they were born.
02:20In fact, some people were in it like five years.
02:23And I often wondered, well, what would make you join in the first place?
02:27Because you're basically forfeiting all of your freedom to believe and be dictated to what you must have as an
02:37opinion or what you must believe as your worldview.
02:39Why would you do this?
02:41Why would you forfeit your freedoms?
02:42And if I go back to the latter rain answer, Branham was telling people that a Christian forfeits his rights,
02:48which is so wrong in so many ways.
02:51But to the point we're talking about today, why would you stay in it after you realize that you had
02:57forfeited your rights?
02:58And from the people that I've spoken with about this, there were different varying levels of indoctrination, and people were
03:06in it for different periods of time.
03:09Some of them, like I said, as soon as, as short as five years, some of them were, came into
03:14it at age 18 or 19, and they were in it until their 60s.
03:18So for those types of people that were in it, either long-term or short-term, they all had one
03:24really common aspect of their joining.
03:28For one reason or another, they were vulnerable.
03:30And if you think about how the latter rain movement began and the premise behind it, you had all of
03:38these people who were coming to the healing lines because they wanted to see a miracle, number one.
03:43But there were many people who were vulnerable because they needed a miracle.
03:48So they came simply because there was something that happened to their mind, body, or spirit that they were just
03:55broken down, and they needed to find answers.
03:57So they came to join this latter rain thing.
04:00Well, once they're sucked in, they're being controlled.
04:03It turned into a high-control group.
04:05And it was very difficult for many people to leave, especially those who did experience some sort of a change.
04:12There were people who were healed for one way or another.
04:16They were healed in this latter rain thing or this healing revival thing.
04:20And so for them to leave, they have to think back, well, what was that that healed me?
04:26And you and I have talked about this before.
04:29They're looking to the man on the platform for their healing or for their having healed them.
04:34But he was just the man on the platform.
04:36If you believe God heals, he's just the side story.
04:39And you actually should be looking up, not straight ahead at the man behind the pulpit.
04:44But they do, whenever you're in this type of mentality, you look backwards to the event, the thing that made
04:51you seem or feel less vulnerable.
04:53And you look at that as an experience that must make you stay.
04:57That's one of the strong aspects of being in this type of movement that has this charismatic style ministries.
05:05So for me, it's really important to understand that people who are leaving, it's not just that they can simply
05:12walk away.
05:13They also have to think back and process what it was that made them join in the first place and
05:20conquering that, you know, that tie that's binding you to it for whatever made you vulnerable in the first place.
05:27That's really, really difficult.
05:29Yes, of course.
05:30There's a cycle that I've been investigating, kind of trying to find out why it is so hard for people
05:41to get out of this high-control churches.
05:46And I'm mainly trying to, you know, put a name on a lot of the things that I went through
05:51because I, based on the comments and based on the feedback and conversations with a lot of people, I've come
05:59to realize that the same thing that I went through is pretty much like a copy-paste of the same
06:06thing that, you know, other people are going through or went through.
06:12Not necessarily faith, deconstruction process or reconstruction process or anything, but just the same things happening over and over again.
06:21And you're right.
06:23The first step is vulnerability.
06:26That's the first stage.
06:27And one would think that a vulnerable person is a weak person.
06:32Not necessarily.
06:34To give you an example, it could be a transition period of any kind, relational or job-related.
06:44Or, of course, in a, you know, sickness situation where a person needs some answers.
06:53But basically, the vulnerability state is just a place where you need answer for any question that you might have
07:03regarding your life, your personal life, or pretty much anything.
07:10So that's so dangerous because everyone goes through those kind of phases, right?
07:17Maybe you're changing a job or moving from one state or one country to another, and you're vulnerable.
07:27In my case, specifically, it was many things converging at the same time.
07:34So I had problems at a job, at my job, and I was having a few situations with my family
07:42and having some situations with my friends.
07:46So I was in a vulnerable state.
07:48I was looking for answers.
07:50Later on, we will see, and I will tell a bit more about how I ended up in the situations
07:58that I ended up.
07:59But anyway, that's the first step.
08:02That's the vulnerability state or vulnerability stage, which, of course, will produce you searching for answers, which is step two.
08:12Well, where you go from being vulnerable to searching for answers, and those two steps are pretty well known.
08:24The third one is where I think we should spend a little bit more time explaining, or not necessarily explaining,
08:36but just sharing ideas and thoughts,
08:39because people will relate to that, and maybe that's what's going to open up their minds to regain critical thinking
08:49on a lot of the things that they went through.
08:51Exactly.
08:52And those events, those things that people are going through, they can be really, really tough.
08:58Some of them are life-changing events that bring people into these types of movements.
09:01And what happens is you are in a state of mind where you are so traumatized that you're looking for
09:09some sort of an answer, like you said.
09:11And what they're looking for really is an explanation to what is happening to them as much as it is
09:18relief for what is happening.
09:20And when you're in this type of charismatic-style environment, you are finding both of those.
09:26They're giving you both the explanation as to what's happening, usually it's a demon who has plagued you or your
09:31family or history, but also, come to us, we can give you relief.
09:36And they give you this emotional high.
09:38It's always, I know I have seen this overused, the shiny happy people example, but it really is that.
09:45You come into this group of people that they seem like they have no worries whatsoever.
09:50It's all over their face, they're shiny, they're happy.
09:52But deep inside, like many people who are in high-control groups, there's this person who's inside who's desperate to
10:01get out, and they can't get out.
10:02Once you get in, you're sucked into this.
10:04So people are asking, why is this happening?
10:06What does it mean?
10:07What should I do?
10:08They come and they find this answer.
10:10And this is a system, this charismatic movement is a system that gives you a framework for answering those questions,
10:17even if the answers aren't real.
10:19And I'm using that statement with caution.
10:23I understand the complexities of the theology.
10:27Don't get me wrong.
10:28From a theological standpoint, I'm not saying that God can't do any of this.
10:32But what I'm saying is they're giving you answers often when they haven't even sought for an answer from God.
10:38They're just bringing you into the framework because they know once they get you into the crowd, they excite you
10:43with the music,
10:44the very excited preaching, the charismatic-style preaching, you're going to feel better because you're going to feel all those
10:51endorphins going through your body because you're part of the movement.
10:55And so they believe that just simply by being in the movement, you get an answer.
10:59And that is the framework for answering these types of questions.
11:03Come join us.
11:04You'll find your answer.
11:05But the sad truth of it is, a framework like this doesn't really give you the full spiritual answer that
11:13a Christian would be seeking.
11:15Or for those who aren't Christian, who are just wanting maybe to learn more about Christianity,
11:20they come expecting to find more, and what they find instead is euphoria.
11:24They find these repetitive songs with these phrases that are just drilled into your head.
11:30So when you walk away, you're thinking of the things that you memorized during the song, or some of them,
11:36you stage lighting, etc.
11:37What they're doing is they're exciting your senses.
11:40And so the answer really is an excitement of the senses.
11:43But the danger is this.
11:45Whenever that framework becomes impossible to question, when suddenly you realize, wait, this is a feeling that is on emotion,
11:54not really an answer to my problem.
11:56Once you get that question forming, who do you go to ask this to?
12:01They'll tell you that's the devil talking.
12:02They'll tell you that Satan's just trying to lure you away from us, stay with us.
12:07And it gets really hard to get out because of this.
12:09So people have this challenge.
12:12Is this a lack of faith?
12:13Or is this really me internally questioning what's happening to me?
12:18Yeah.
12:19Thank you for introducing the explanatory system or the encounter with an explanatory system.
12:25And I would also like to introduce everyone and you.
12:30I don't know if you've heard of this before, but it's the cognitive closure.
12:34And I would define what goes in your mind when you go through a cognitive closure as this.
12:43I found an answer.
12:45So here it is what I should believe.
12:47So this is the truth.
12:48And from there, I will start to develop the rest of the ideas that I might have, the rest of
13:01my entire vision of how things should go.
13:04So for example, it's pretty, pretty easy.
13:08It's A plus B equals C.
13:11Just to give a very common example on this specific case is this.
13:16Let's say I'm having a hard financial situation because I'm not tithing.
13:25So therefore, I should tithe and give more to my group, right?
13:32That's a very common scenario.
13:34But you can name, you know, pretty much any kind of situation that we've been talking through.
13:43It's pretty much the same.
13:44So what is an explanatory situation or an, sorry, an explanatory system basically is when you find an explanation after
13:59being a, in a situation of vulnerability.
14:04And of course, step one, two, and three end up in this.
14:08So an explanatory system is very dangerous because it will give you a conviction that later on will define very
14:20well how you're going to behave based on that specific system.
14:26Now, what is the danger?
14:28And here's where I'm going to give you examples based on my personal experience so people can understand what I'm
14:36talking about.
14:38Basically, so I remember very vividly.
14:41I was not in church when I came to Christ.
14:46I was really not interested in going to church or any youth group or anything.
14:54I was just doing my life the way I thought I should.
14:59I was around 22 or 20.
15:02Yeah, 22.
15:05And I remember that, as I said before, I was going through stressful situations at my job and stressful situations
15:17with my family, bad situation with my father.
15:22And it was a messy place.
15:26Let's say that.
15:27So, I remember I was in my room alone all by myself.
15:33And all I felt was, okay, and just a couple of times that ever happened to me, I'm no different
15:43than anybody else.
15:44I'm not special.
15:45But all I felt was like a really deep feeling, a voice in my head that said, hey, now you
15:55realize that you're wrong.
15:57But at the same time, I was so loved, I felt so much love that I knew, that I knew,
16:07that I knew it was God.
16:09No doubt about it.
16:10So, that's perfectly fine.
16:16That can happen to anybody.
16:19Actually, I think it should happen to everyone.
16:22But all of a sudden, I knew, okay, God exists.
16:31He wants to be present in my life.
16:34I have no doubt about it.
16:36I've been wrong for 22 years.
16:40Now what I should do is just go to church, because that's the idea that I have.
16:45If, you know, you want to know more of God, you go to the people that know more of Him,
16:51right?
16:53Okay, nothing wrong with that.
16:54If you find a healthy community of believers, they will guide you in the good way, which is, okay, you
17:02need to have a relationship,
17:03a personal relationship with God through His Word and prayer.
17:08Nothing wrong with that.
17:09The problem is that I came to an explanatory system that was really biased.
17:15In some case, in some things, some specific things.
17:20And again, I go to this church.
17:24Well, I asked a friend that was going to church, hey, I would like to go to church.
17:29Of course, his eyes lit up, and he was like, yeah, sure, let's go next Sunday.
17:34And I remember I went that Sunday.
17:39And after that, I continued going to church and getting involved.
17:45And all of a sudden I started, you know, visiting some youth groups and houses.
17:52And then I joined the worship ministry.
17:56And I was, you know, really, really involved in leadership in that specific church.
18:04And if you ask why, well, I've asked myself why.
18:09And it was because at that specific moment I was vulnerable.
18:14I knew that God wanted to have a relationship with me.
18:18And I went and did my research.
18:21And I remembered that I had a friend that was going to church.
18:26I asked him to go to church.
18:28And he took me to this church.
18:30And all of a sudden I encountered this system that gave answers to me of everything that I was trying
18:40to find answers for.
18:43Again, nothing wrong with that.
18:46The issue is that, for example, well, I have big issues with my father.
18:53The first thing that I remember, you know, like, having to deal with was that.
19:01And all of a sudden they tell me, well, you have a father that loves you and wants to restore
19:07your relationship with you.
19:11And that's pretty much the first step.
19:15Second thing that's going to happen is you can start restoring the relationship with your earthly father.
19:21Nothing wrong with that.
19:24Okay.
19:25But later on you start to find things as any, pretty much any denomination, Christian denomination,
19:33that will, you know, introduce things that are not necessarily biblical, not necessarily godly.
19:44But that's the explanatory system they have to be able to continue.
19:53That's pretty much how they do things.
19:57So eventually, what's going to happen?
20:00Next time you are in a vulnerable state or that you're looking for an answer for any question you have,
20:08you're going to go back to the system that provided that reassurance in the first place.
20:13So what's going to happen?
20:14Then the cycle is going to go again.
20:17And more specifically, they're going to go back to the person who gave them that experience.
20:23Think about this.
20:25It's called the charismatic movement.
20:26Many people who are outside of the movement looking in, they mistakenly think that this means something entirely differently because
20:33of the way that the speakers speak.
20:36However, charismatic preaching is really talking about the Greek word charisma, which is talking about the Holy Spirit's activities in
20:44the church, including spiritual gifts, healing, etc.
20:47But there's another type of charisma, and this is something that the ministers in the charismatic movement almost all have.
20:56They've been trained because so many people do it.
20:59You have to be like this in the charismatic movement.
21:02It's just part of the culture.
21:03And that is you must speak with personal charisma.
21:06And that's a big difference.
21:08The word, when you think about charismatic-style preaching, it should mean we're open to the Holy Spirit and its
21:15gifts.
21:16But usually it is morphed into this.
21:18The preacher is expressive.
21:20He's very compelling, very excited.
21:24And what they're doing is they're trying to stir up the people's emotions, whether or not they belong to the
21:30movement.
21:30And this can be good.
21:32Sometimes they're doing it for good.
21:33But in almost all cases, when you're in a high-demand group or a high-control group, they're stirring up
21:40your emotions because you can find this sense of belonging.
21:43And when you find this sense of belonging through what they're doing, sadly, it goes to the head of the
21:49person who is doing the exciting.
21:51So they believe that they're the ones who is really bringing heaven down.
21:56And, in fact, you can hear them say things like this in their sermons.
21:59They believe that they're the one who is channeling the Holy Spirit.
22:02So some of the researchers who look at the occult and they say, well, this is channeling.
22:07This is what they're doing.
22:08Yes, but it's more to the point that they're using a charismatic-style emotional speaking to bring you into that
22:16same emotion.
22:17So they're not only channeling like in the spirit world, if you believe that, they're also channeling your emotions.
22:24And so they have a very charismatic-style preaching.
22:27Now, the problem is, once you leave or try to leave and you start to come back, you come back
22:33to get that experience.
22:35Think of it like you got a hit in the drug addict world.
22:39You got a hit.
22:40Well, you want to go back to the person who's giving you the drug, the illicit drug, so that you
22:45can get the hit.
22:45Well, that is usually the speaker.
22:47And the sad truth of it is it has created this interface where when people think about the ministry, they
22:55don't think about God so much as they do the person who brought them into God.
22:59And so they become literally the mediator between God and man.
23:04Yeah, of course, we are talking about a toxic environment where leadership is going to try to lead every aspect
23:15of your life, right?
23:18There's, as you said, nothing wrong with people trying to help you.
23:23But what happens when these people that are trying to help you, as well as you, found or had an
23:30encounter with an explanatory system that was actually biased and that was not entirely leading you to the Bible, but
23:40just to the way they do things?
23:42Because there's a difference between somebody guiding you to do things in a godly way and somebody guiding you to
23:52do things in their own way.
23:54The problem that we've discussed previously as well is that the boundaries of the things that God wants and the
24:06things that the church does sometimes get blurry because of generations and generations of people encountering an explanatory system that
24:16will provide answers for them.
24:18The problem is that they're in some way functional because they are in some way functional because they are finding
24:22an answer.
24:23The problem is that they're not having the right answer.
24:28The problem, again, is you are based on a grooming environment most of the time of people trying to give
24:37you love and care.
24:40But in the end, it's just manipulation disguised as love and care.
24:48As we were discussing before, again, the issue with an explanatory system like the one we see in church today
24:57and the vast majority of church today is that it's the product of generations and generations of things that are
25:12not biblical, that are not coming from the Bible.
25:17And as you said in one of our episodes, it's surely not the God of the Bible.
25:27But we, as newcomers, new believers, go to church thinking that they know how to do it.
25:36They know how it's done.
25:37And in reality, it's just a personal relationship with God that will lead you to all the answers that you
25:46may need.
25:47And again, the relationship with God for any believer is based on the will of God manifesting in every area
25:59of your life.
26:00And that's pretty much the fruit of the Spirit and its essence.
26:06But if you go to church nowadays, you don't see the fruit of the Spirit, really, in any part of
26:16the church nowadays,
26:18especially when you have so many issues with morality and money and views and spiritual and sexual views and any
26:28kind of the things that we're seeing today.
26:33Now, what, in essence, that is, it's a faulty explanatory system that went through generations and generations of people trying
26:45to find answers.
26:48So, it's a toxic environment.
26:52It will create dependency on the leaders and not dependency on God and His Word.
26:58So, it's a really ugly situation for many people that are honestly looking for God's ways on their lives,
27:07but are finding people's way or ways manipulating their life at the end.
27:16Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism
27:22transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
27:29You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
27:36On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley,
27:43Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
27:51You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
27:57If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
28:03top.
28:04And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
28:10watching.
28:10On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:15For me, this is a conversation really about trust, because in the end, that's really what all paths of research
28:22lead into
28:23when you're thinking about should you leave the high-control group or are you even in a high-control group.
28:29Trust is a big issue because of this.
28:31You go to one of these movements, they bring you in, they toy with your emotions,
28:36and suddenly you trust the leader because of their charismatic style.
28:40And over time, if it's a high-control group, that leader is misrepresenting what trust means,
28:48and at the same time, he or she is manipulating your trust.
28:52And so in the end, trust becomes something that's devalued.
28:56I remember whenever I left the Branham movement,
28:59everybody looked to Branham as the prophet of the age or the prophet of the end time,
29:03and we trusted this.
29:06We trusted that he was the prophet,
29:07and that the things that he said about his prophecies were true,
29:11because almost nobody looked to see, did these prophecies even come to pass,
29:16which is really odd if you think about it.
29:18But it's because our trust was manipulated so that we didn't have to go look into these things,
29:23because many of them did not come to pass, as he said.
29:27He had manipulated our trust.
29:29Well, because of this, when I began looking at the prophecies,
29:33there were members who were devout members of Branhamism,
29:37and some of the splinter groups of Branhamism that came later,
29:40who would say,
29:42yes, that may be John,
29:44but we know he's a prophet because he could heal people.
29:47I can't tell you how many times I've got this explanation from
29:51members and former members,
29:53and people who are loosely connected,
29:55they'll say he was a prophet because he healed people.
29:57Now, to the person outside looking in,
30:00logically, that doesn't make sense.
30:01You evaluate a prophecy by whether or not it came true,
30:05not by can you do this other thing.
30:07I've mentioned this, it might have been in your podcast,
30:09that's like evaluating a pitcher in a baseball game by can he row a boat?
30:16It's just those two don't make sense.
30:18It doesn't go together.
30:19But that's how it was,
30:20and the reason why is because they manipulated your trust.
30:24They devalued trust and they taught you to trust in something else.
30:30Well, that's really what's happening here.
30:32This is a problem because once you develop that framework of understanding life
30:39in the way that they want you to understand it,
30:43once they change the way that your beliefs and your experiences link to what you call truth,
30:51then you start to look at the experience as the value of the truth.
30:55And those two, like everything else that I've just said,
30:59don't really go together.
31:00You have to say,
31:01is the thing that he's teaching us correct?
31:04Is the doctrine correct?
31:06If this is a preacher,
31:07and you're listening to the preacher,
31:09and he's giving you an explanation on the Bible,
31:12is that explanation on the Bible correct?
31:14But sadly,
31:15because it is a movement that values experience over doctrine,
31:19they will instead say,
31:21well, you had the experience, right?
31:23Did you not feel this?
31:24It must be of God.
31:25We can kind of trust that what he's saying is of God.
31:28And that is a misrepresentation of what trust should be.
31:32And in the end,
31:34you have devalued trust to the extent that you trust the emotion over actual trust.
31:39The problem relies on the fact that the explanatory system that you find is man-made.
31:49So what happens over time is,
31:52again,
31:53going back to what we have just discussed,
31:58let me give you an example.
32:03Maybe I'm having situations with my relationship with my wife.
32:12I go to church.
32:14I go to some pastor or leader or whatnot.
32:18And they say,
32:19well,
32:20here's what you have to do
32:22in order for you to get a better relationship with your wife.
32:28I follow those steps.
32:32And nothing changes.
32:35Things are going the same.
32:38So I go back again and say,
32:40hey,
32:41well,
32:42nothing's changing.
32:43The answer might be,
32:45well,
32:45if you're doing what God wants,
32:49and if you really have a heart that is looking to do God's will,
32:54and nothing's changing,
32:55then you're not the problem.
32:57You should start to seek if the problem is maybe your wife.
33:04You see?
33:05So,
33:06and I've seen this before.
33:09I can,
33:10of course,
33:11I'm not going to say any names,
33:12but I remember one time when this person was telling me,
33:18well,
33:18the answer I got from my pastor was,
33:22well,
33:22you have to divorce your husband.
33:26There's no positive outcome that you can find if you want to do God's will,
33:32and he doesn't.
33:35It may sound godly,
33:38yet they decided to keep their marriage and change the church that they were attending to.
33:46And surprise,
33:47surprise,
33:47they're still together.
33:48They're still a great family.
33:49They are really happy.
33:53Again,
33:54the issue is not the fact that you find an explanatory system.
33:59The issue is that you find the wrong one.
34:02And as humans,
34:03we don't like to think that we have found the wrong one.
34:06You don't like to believe that you've been misguided or misled.
34:09That's part of it.
34:10You try to defend what it is that you became a part of.
34:12It all comes back,
34:14like I said,
34:15to trust,
34:16but also critical thinking.
34:17If you have devalued trust and misguided trust,
34:21then there's no need for critical thinking because you trust,
34:25and you've gone in headfirst without really thinking.
34:30That's the sad truth of this.
34:32And nothing against the people who do this.
34:34I know that there are vulnerabilities that cause people to go into the movement.
34:38I was born into it,
34:39so I'm not a good person to talk about this.
34:42However,
34:42from the people that I've spoken with,
34:45they came in because they fully trusted the person who was leading them in,
34:50and that person abused their trust and made them not critically think.
34:55And that's a big problem.
34:56Because of this,
34:57when you are engaging in critical thought and somebody gives you an answer,
35:03like we're talking about here,
35:05it isn't that that's the end-all answer.
35:09You need to think about the answer because your understanding of that answer may change
35:14when you get more details.
35:16In other words,
35:17whatever advice is given to you must remain open to examination forever.
35:22If I give you advice on the podcast,
35:24you need to keep it open to examination because I might be wrong in the way that I said it.
35:28Or I might not even understand the situation,
35:31so my advice might be bad advice.
35:34And it isn't that I'm trying to give you bad advice,
35:37but I gave you advice that didn't fit the situation.
35:39You can't just blindly accept it.
35:41You have to critically think about what John said.
35:44Well,
35:45in the charismatic movement,
35:46or any movement that you're in,
35:47you need to critically think about the advice that's given to you by the leadership.
35:52Sadly,
35:53in the charismatic movement,
35:54and a lot of the Pentecostal movement as well,
35:57when the spiritual leader gives you advice,
36:01you mistakenly think that that advice came directly from God.
36:05And in some cases,
36:06especially in the high control groups,
36:08they will tell you that that advice came from God.
36:11But the problem is,
36:12what if it didn't?
36:13You have to stop and think about that,
36:15because if you're not critically thinking and critically examining,
36:19or if you're a Christian,
36:21if you're not praying to God yourself to see,
36:22did that advice actually come from God,
36:24you have devalued trust,
36:27and you're blindly trusting a leader.
36:29And it goes back to the scripture,
36:31the blind can lead the blind.
36:32You don't want to be caught in that situation.
36:34You're right.
36:35One hundred percent.
36:38And there's something else that I would like to add.
36:43The easiest way to find out
36:47if the explanatory system that you find
36:51is faulty or is man-made
36:54is examining the results of the decisions
37:00that you have been making in the last years.
37:05If you're a better person,
37:07if you feel closer to God,
37:10if you don't think you need a leader
37:13to have a relationship with God,
37:15if you don't feel in any way, shape, or form obligated
37:20to be a church seven days a week,
37:24if you don't feel like this worry,
37:28constant worry of,
37:30I should be doing this,
37:31or I should be doing that,
37:33or what's X, Y, or Z going to say
37:35if I don't do this?
37:39Maybe your explanatory system
37:41is based on the Bible,
37:44and maybe your community of believers,
37:47it's fine.
37:49But again, the problem is
37:52that I've seen this before,
37:55I've heard this before,
37:56or it's like,
37:57well, I've been doing everything
37:59that I was supposed to do,
38:01yet I'm still having the same issues,
38:05or I'm still not finding any good results
38:09in this specific area of my life.
38:13I remember very vividly
38:15this example that I'm going to give you,
38:17and it's,
38:18what happens if you take a mother
38:20and say to her,
38:22okay, if you pray and fast
38:25and tithe this amount,
38:30or give this amount to the church,
38:33your son will leave the drugs,
38:37and have this drug addiction,
38:41substance abuse, gone.
38:45Well, what's going to happen?
38:47Probably this person will pray more,
38:52and fast more,
38:53and give more,
38:54get more involved in church.
38:58Ultimately,
38:59I know prayer is powerful,
39:01and I cannot deny that,
39:03and I'm not willing to do that by any way,
39:06but ultimately the decision
39:10for that son or daughter
39:13to quit drugs
39:15or any substance abuse
39:17is a personal thing.
39:19So you can end up
39:22with a person
39:24that's been giving money
39:27and, you know,
39:28sowing the seed
39:29and, you know,
39:31trying to sow the seed
39:32and trying to give money
39:35and this system,
39:38weird stuff
39:39that you have to give
39:40in order to receive.
39:43You're going to have a person
39:44that's going to spend
39:45many years of her life
39:49seeing no results,
39:51believing that they're not good enough
39:54or they're not doing enough
39:55because the same problems
39:57keep happening again.
40:00Again,
40:01that's an explanatory system
40:03that will provide an answer.
40:04that's not the correct one.
40:08At the end of the day,
40:09it's a personal thing.
40:10If that person decides
40:11to quit the substance abuse,
40:13it's a personal decision,
40:14right?
40:16You should pray for that person.
40:18If you want to fast
40:21just for looking for answers
40:23or anything,
40:24it's okay.
40:25I mean,
40:25you can do that,
40:26but ultimately,
40:27the decision is a personal one.
40:29yet,
40:31you can spend
40:32many,
40:33many,
40:33many years
40:34trying to get a result
40:36doing things
40:38in the Bible way
40:39when what you're actually doing
40:41is doing things
40:42in somebody else's way,
40:44expecting God
40:45to manifest
40:48in that specific situation
40:49when that's not
40:50God's will.
40:52And that's just it.
40:54What if it's not from God?
40:55That's the point
40:56that you have to really
40:57think through
40:58and the question
40:58you have to ask yourself
40:59because you're in a movement,
41:01if you're in this charismatic movement,
41:03New Apostolic Reformation,
41:05large parts of Pentecostalism,
41:07if you're in a movement
41:08where the leader
41:09is claiming
41:09that his authority
41:12came from God,
41:13is it?
41:14That's one of the real questions
41:15that you have to ask
41:16because
41:17does God require
41:18somebody
41:19who is
41:21intending
41:21to manipulate people
41:23using emotions,
41:24using your senses,
41:26using things
41:27that he's telling you
41:28came from God,
41:29which may or may not,
41:30is he using that
41:31as a manipulation tool
41:33or is it actually
41:34from God?
41:35And
41:35the bigger question is
41:37does God
41:37really require
41:38a person
41:39like this
41:40to do it?
41:42Whenever the Bible says
41:43I will send you
41:44the Holy Spirit,
41:46does that include
41:47the Holy Spirit
41:48coming through
41:48an individual
41:49on a platform?
41:50I think
41:51if you're a Christian
41:51that's the bigger question
41:52that you have to ask here.
41:54Does the Holy Spirit
41:55need this person?
41:56Can God do it
41:57without this person?
41:58And
41:58what does that look like?
41:59If I'm in a movement
42:00that's telling me
42:01I must have
42:02the covering
42:03and I must have
42:04the minister
42:05who's my spiritual
42:06authority,
42:08where does that fit
42:09within this
42:10I will send you
42:11the Holy Spirit?
42:11Can it fit?
42:12For me,
42:13that's a huge question.
42:15And
42:15the thing
42:16to think through
42:17also is this.
42:18The movement
42:19is not new.
42:20It is something
42:21that has developed
42:22over time.
42:23And what happens
42:24is people
42:24can inherit
42:25controlling practices
42:27that never
42:28have even
42:29that personality.
42:30A leader might
42:31repeat what
42:31they were taught
42:32because they
42:32associate it
42:33with God
42:34or the Holy Spirit.
42:35But what if
42:36it's not
42:36the Holy Spirit?
42:38That's the thing
42:38to really think through
42:39because
42:41control
42:42can be
42:43understood
42:44as care
42:45as we've
42:45talked about.
42:46And if you're
42:47going to this
42:48leadership
42:48and he's
42:49caring for you,
42:50sometimes your
42:51trust in that
42:52care
42:52can be
42:53greater than
42:54the trust
42:55in the Holy Spirit
42:55to lead and
42:56guide you.
42:57So
42:57it's
42:58a thing
42:59where we need
43:00to hold
43:00the leaders
43:00accountable,
43:01but we also
43:02have a
43:02responsibility
43:03to critically
43:04think about
43:05what the
43:05leader is saying,
43:06to evaluate
43:07what they're
43:07saying,
43:08and then
43:08say,
43:09if this is
43:09a Christian
43:10movement,
43:10is that
43:11really from
43:11God?
43:12Most of the
43:13time,
43:13what I've
43:13seen,
43:14at least in
43:15Latin America,
43:16Costa Rica
43:16specifically,
43:18is that
43:19those things
43:19have been
43:22repeated over
43:23generations and
43:24generations,
43:25so they
43:26become
43:27normal.
43:28Nobody is
43:29actually trying
43:30to do,
43:31or at
43:32least,
43:33not the
43:34majority of
43:35people.
43:35They're not
43:36trying to
43:37create an
43:38explanatory
43:39system in
43:41order to
43:42get a
43:42direct benefit
43:43from the
43:44people.
43:44It's just
43:45how they
43:46do things
43:47because it's
43:48how it has
43:49been done
43:49over generations.
43:52On the
43:53other hand,
43:54you're coming
43:55from a
43:55totally
43:56different
43:58group,
44:00where
44:00things were
44:02clearly done
44:03to benefit
44:05from the
44:06people.
44:07Now,
44:08in my
44:08case,
44:10nobody
44:11questions a
44:13lot of
44:13those things
44:14because this
44:16is how you
44:16should be a
44:17Christian.
44:18This is how
44:19you should
44:20obey your
44:20leaders.
44:21This is how
44:22you should
44:22do things.
44:23You learn
44:24something,
44:25you replicate
44:26that, and
44:27eventually over
44:27time, it
44:28will create
44:31the mindset
44:32you based
44:33your life
44:34on, and
44:35how you
44:36behave is
44:37derived
44:38precisely from
44:39that.
44:41Again,
44:42many generations
44:44of people
44:44being wrong.
44:47On your
44:48specific case,
44:49it was
44:49different,
44:50because you
44:51come from
44:51a very
44:52extreme
44:52group that
44:54we know
44:55that there
44:57were people
44:58trying to
45:00benefit from
45:01others.
45:01Yeah, and
45:02I try not
45:03to let that
45:03skew my
45:04way of
45:04thinking,
45:04because when
45:05you start
45:06to see that
45:06there were
45:07people who
45:07were doing
45:08it literally
45:09to gain
45:10the money,
45:10the fame,
45:11the power,
45:11etc., it's
45:12hard not to
45:13look at the
45:13whole movement
45:13like this,
45:14but I did
45:16over time
45:17come to
45:17realize that
45:18it's not
45:19just simply
45:19that there
45:20were people
45:20in it who
45:21were out
45:21to get
45:21money,
45:22fame,
45:22power,
45:23sex,
45:23it was
45:24literally
45:24that it
45:25was a
45:25movement
45:26that had
45:26a framework
45:27that allowed
45:28that,
45:28and once
45:29you have
45:29that framework
45:29that allows
45:30it, and
45:31you're showing
45:31this type
45:32of leadership
45:32as leadership
45:33from God,
45:34well, what
45:35about the
45:35people who
45:35are raised
45:36in it?
45:36They are
45:37raised to
45:37believe that
45:38this is how
45:38leadership is
45:39supposed to
45:40be, and
45:40so you have
45:41really good
45:41people that
45:42sometimes get
45:42caught up
45:43into really
45:43bad things.
45:44Totally,
45:45100%.
45:47Okay, my
45:48friend, I
45:49have a couple
45:50of things
45:51here.
45:51Now, how
45:53do you
45:53know if
45:54what you're
45:56listening in
45:57church, the
46:01general ideas
46:02that you're
46:03getting from
46:04your leadership
46:05are coming
46:07from an
46:08explanatory
46:08system that's
46:09based on the
46:10Bible or not?
46:12The first
46:13thing that we
46:13have to be
46:14clear on is
46:15that critical
46:17thinking should
46:18never go
46:18away.
46:19You should
46:20never lose
46:21the ability
46:22to question
46:23everything.
46:25And if you're
46:26not receiving
46:26clear, honest
46:28answers, Bible
46:30based answers,
46:31not manipulated
46:32ones, well,
46:34there's a red
46:35flag right there.
46:36You should be
46:37able to ask
46:38anything to
46:39anyone.
46:40it doesn't
46:41matter if
46:42you're a
46:42newcomer and
46:43you just
46:45came to
46:46church on
46:47Sunday and
46:49all of a
46:49sudden you
46:50need to
46:50do some
46:52questions to
46:53anyone.
46:53You can go
46:54ahead and do
46:54it.
46:55And actually,
46:57if your
46:59leadership is
47:00unapproachable
47:01and very
47:03strict with
47:03those things,
47:04there's just a
47:05good chance
47:06that, you
47:07know, you're
47:07in an unhealthy
47:09group, you
47:11should be
47:12able to
47:15ask this
47:16question.
47:17Why do you
47:18believe this?
47:21Most of the
47:21time, they
47:23will tell you,
47:23well, that's
47:24what the Bible
47:25says, that's
47:25the will of
47:26God for us.
47:28But if you
47:29go and say,
47:30well, can you
47:30show me where
47:32it is in the
47:33Bible?
47:34They have no
47:35idea.
47:36Or you
47:37feel that the
47:38verse is like
47:40out of
47:41context or
47:42the verse is
47:43talking about
47:43something else,
47:44go ahead
47:45yourself and
47:46do the
47:46research.
47:47Go ahead
47:48yourself and
47:49pray about
47:50it.
47:51Never believe
47:52something just
47:53because somebody
47:54else did.
47:56That's my
47:57first, like,
48:00okay, like,
48:00method of
48:02understanding
48:03this.
48:03If you
48:04believe
48:04something just
48:05because somebody
48:06else says
48:07that thing is
48:10what they
48:11believe and
48:12that's how
48:13it's been
48:14done, that's
48:15not good.
48:17And along
48:17with that, the
48:19sad truth of
48:19it is most
48:20Christians, and
48:21I repeat, most
48:23Christians have
48:24not read the
48:24Bible.
48:25But yet, you
48:26need to know
48:26what's in it
48:27because you
48:27need to know
48:28is the person
48:29who's preaching,
48:30a person who
48:31understands what
48:31is in it.
48:32So you must
48:33read it for
48:33yourself.
48:34And think of
48:35it like this.
48:35If this is the
48:37movement that is
48:37leading you into
48:38heaven, if this
48:39is your worldview,
48:41your everything, as
48:42most Christians would
48:43say and claim to
48:44believe, then why
48:46would you not want
48:47to read it?
48:48The shocking thing to
48:49me is after I
48:49left, I did not
48:50know until after I
48:51left my movement
48:52that most Christians
48:53didn't read their
48:54Bibles.
48:55Now, along with
48:56that sadness was
48:57learning that I had
48:58misread it and
48:59misunderstood it because
49:00I was mistold what
49:01was in it, I
49:02poured myself into
49:04it.
49:04I wanted to know
49:05every aspect of
49:06it because I
49:07never wanted
49:07somebody to do
49:08this to me again.
49:10And I would say
49:11whether you're in
49:12the high control
49:12group and maybe
49:13you believe that
49:13it's a movement of
49:14God or not, maybe
49:15you've left it, in
49:17both cases you need
49:18to know what's in
49:19the Bible because
49:19you don't know
49:21whenever somebody
49:22starts to say
49:22something that is
49:23leading you away
49:24from it.
49:24And if you're a
49:25Christian, you don't
49:26want to be led
49:26away from the
49:27Bible.
49:28If you view
49:28God, if you
49:30have the
49:30perspective of
49:31God in the
49:33correct biblical
49:34way, you're not
49:35going to have a
49:36lot of the
49:37issues that I
49:37had.
49:39But if you
49:40filter the
49:42will of God
49:42for you through
49:43what your
49:44leaders and
49:46your church
49:46and your
49:47group has
49:49to say,
49:51well, that's
49:53effectively saying,
49:54well, this is
49:56God's will for
49:58me, but it's
49:59better if I
50:00know my
50:00leadership, my
50:03leadership's will
50:04for me.
50:05So, any
50:07leadership, they're
50:08not above God.
50:09So, God should
50:11be governing
50:12every area of
50:14your life.
50:15That is the
50:17explanatory system
50:18that we want.
50:19and we
50:20should get
50:22away from
50:23all the
50:24burden of
50:25this ways
50:27on which
50:28modern church,
50:30high control
50:31groups, or
50:32high control
50:32church, does
50:34things.
50:35Because
50:35eventually,
50:36again, they're
50:38going to change
50:39your behavior
50:39based on their
50:41convictions, because
50:43you could be
50:43having an
50:44explanation that's
50:46not coming from
50:46the Bible, but
50:48their own ways
50:49of doing
50:49things.
50:50Absolutely.
50:51And think
50:51about this.
50:52It's called a
50:53high control
50:53group for a
50:55reason.
50:55They have a
50:56high level of
50:57control.
50:58There are
50:58people who
50:58want to
50:59control you.
51:00I was never
51:02more shocked
51:03whenever I left
51:04the group and
51:04started realizing
51:05that level of
51:06control and the
51:08difference between
51:08that control and
51:10what Christianity
51:10should have been.
51:12For us,
51:13control was the
51:15thing, the rules
51:16that we must do
51:17in order to
51:17save ourselves,
51:18but more
51:19specifically, the
51:20things we must
51:21not do to
51:22damn ourselves.
51:23So, whereas
51:24most of
51:25Christianity, who's
51:26not in a high
51:27control group, looks
51:28to Jesus and
51:29what he has
51:29done so that
51:31he has saved
51:32you, by grace
51:33you're saved
51:34through faith in
51:34Jesus Christ, we
51:36were looking to
51:37the things we
51:37must not do in
51:38order to save
51:39ourselves.
51:40They're on my
51:40website, I think
51:41it's called
51:42Cult Rules or
51:43something like
51:43this.
51:43You can find
51:44this list of
51:45rules that we
51:45had that are
51:47absolutely absurd.
51:48People have
51:49written in, I
51:50think it made
51:50one of the
51:51Reddit top
51:52threads one
51:52day, because
51:53people were
51:54just shocked
51:54that this can
51:55exist in
51:56Christianity.
51:56We had
51:57things like
51:58do not
51:58watch
51:58television.
51:59And for
52:00those of
52:01you who
52:01say that's
52:01a biblical
52:02thing, well
52:02tell me in
52:03the Bible
52:03where it
52:04mentions a
52:04television.
52:05It did
52:06not exist.
52:07This is a
52:07technology that
52:08came much, much
52:09later.
52:09You can't
52:10preach against
52:10television and
52:11say that you
52:12are preaching a
52:13biblical thing
52:14when TVs did
52:15not exist.
52:15We were taught
52:17that you could
52:18not drink
52:18alcohol, including
52:19wine.
52:21And it's so
52:22shocking.
52:22Paul told
52:23Timothy, drink a
52:24little wine for
52:25your stomach.
52:25And one of the
52:27greatest miracles in
52:27the Bible mentioned
52:28is Jesus turned the
52:29water into wine.
52:30How can you say
52:31that there is a
52:32biblical precedent
52:33against drinking
52:34wine?
52:35Now there are
52:36passages I
52:37understand about
52:38getting drunk.
52:38I'm not talking
52:39about that.
52:39Just simply
52:40drinking of wine
52:41for us was a
52:41rule that we
52:42had.
52:43And what it
52:44ends up, you
52:44have all of
52:45these weights
52:45on your
52:45shoulder that
52:46they have
52:47placed on your
52:48shoulders for
52:49you.
52:49You have all
52:50of these weights
52:51of rules of
52:52things that you
52:52must not do in
52:54order to be
52:54saved.
52:55And a handful
52:55of things that
52:56you must do to
52:57be saved.
52:58None of which
52:58are pointing to
52:59Jesus Christ who
53:00has already saved
53:01you according to
53:02Christian doctrine.
53:04So for me, it
53:05was eye-opening to
53:06realize that they
53:06had done this to
53:07me.
53:07And once you
53:09start to lift
53:09those weights
53:10off, suddenly
53:11you realize you
53:12were just so
53:13burdened down that
53:14everything about
53:15you that you
53:16thought you were
53:16getting emotionally
53:17from the group,
53:18they were taking
53:19away from you in
53:20other ways.
53:20So you had this
53:21balanced scale of
53:23emotions.
53:23Yes, they're giving
53:24you the shiny
53:24happy people thing,
53:25but they're also
53:26giving you so many
53:27weights that you're
53:28just so burdened
53:29down that you're
53:29almost ready to
53:30break.
53:31And sadly, it
53:33does break some
53:34people.
53:34And we have
53:35worked through
53:36situations where
53:38people have gone
53:38through deep
53:39depression, trauma,
53:40complex trauma,
53:41simply because of
53:42all of the weights
53:43that was added to
53:44their shoulders.
53:45So I'm very
53:46thankful that you
53:46and I can talk
53:47through this and
53:48hopefully somebody
53:48can find a way to
53:50release these weights
53:51because once you
53:51do, you start to
53:53experience what
53:54freedom truly is.
53:56You were burdened
53:57down with the
53:57things that man
53:58had given as
53:59their ideas, man
54:00or women, depending
54:01on if you have a
54:02female or male
54:03leader.
54:04They were giving
54:05you their ideas
54:06and their, more
54:07specifically, their
54:07opinions of what
54:09was right and
54:10wrong.
54:10And it's a thing
54:12where you need to
54:13critically think about
54:14those opinions.
54:15Yes, some of them
54:16may be biblical, but
54:17many of them, in the
54:18case that I had
54:19growing up, many of
54:20them just simply
54:21weren't.
54:21You have the
54:22freedom to engage
54:24your critical
54:25thinking and to
54:26decide for yourself,
54:27is this thing that
54:28I'm in correct?
54:29And do they have a
54:31biblical precedent for
54:32controlling me?
54:33Usually, I would
54:34say 99.9% of the
54:36time, the answer
54:38is no.
54:38They should not
54:39biblically have any
54:41sort of control over
54:42you.
54:42There are cases, I
54:43understand, where
54:44somebody is really,
54:45really desperately
54:45needing help, and the
54:47only help they can
54:47have is if somebody
54:48does kind of take
54:49charge of their
54:50life.
54:50But that's just this
54:51little small percentage
54:52of people.
54:53The vast majority of
54:54people do not need
54:55this.
54:56So, hopefully we said
54:57something that can
54:58help people that are
54:58burdened down like this,
55:00and thank you so much
55:00for doing it.
55:01Wonderful to have
55:02this conversation, and
55:04again, very happy to
55:06help.
55:07I hope this is useful
55:09and helpful for
55:11everyone watching.
55:12Well, if you've
55:13enjoyed our show and
55:13you want more
55:14information, you can
55:14check us out on the
55:15web.
55:15You can find us at
55:16william-branham.org.
55:18For more about the
55:19dark side of the new
55:20apostolic reformation, you
55:21can read Weaponized
55:22Religion from Christian
55:23Identity to the NAR,
55:25available on Amazon,
55:26Kindle, and Audible.
55:56For more information,
56:05visit us at www.direillon.com.