00:00I read him for years when he was covering the NFL nationally for Yahoo Sports.
00:04Now he's doing it for himself, NFLBlueBook.com.
00:08He's one of our favorite guys, and if you want some knowledge about the NFL,
00:11you listen to Charles Robinson.
00:13Hello, Charles. How are you?
00:14Hey, Charles.
00:15What's going on, Jones? How are you guys doing today?
00:16Good to have you with us.
00:17We just don't have anything to ever talk about when it comes to the playoffs.
00:20No, nothing including it. It's so boring.
00:21Yeah, there's just a very calm environment in Berea and the surrounding areas.
00:30Parties, cities.
00:31We're such a generic football city, right?
00:34That's the word we'd use.
00:35Wouldn't you say that, Jeff?
00:36Generic when it comes to topics about the Browns.
00:38Yeah, sure.
00:40When you caught when Todd Munkin was naming Deshaun Watson the starting quarterback
00:45for at least game one, and he said not week to week,
00:49but for game one and beyond, you thought what?
00:55Well, it was funny because I was on, I was with the Panthers,
01:00who obviously they're going to see in week three.
01:05And I was talking to a member of their front office, and I was like,
01:08hey, you want to know who you guys are going to see in week three, maybe,
01:12as the starting quarterback?
01:14And he was shocked.
01:18He was, like, stunned and couldn't believe it.
01:21And I would have to say that, look, for me, when I went back to my notes
01:28and, you know, kind of everything that I gathered when I went through camp,
01:32I was like, okay, I could see a couple of things.
01:35Or I'm like, why didn't this?
01:37Like, why didn't this just convince me when I was walking out that it was
01:40definitely Deshaun, like, why did I really, you know,
01:42give this more leeway than it probably really had?
01:46And that was, you know, when I talked to somebody,
01:51I have to be careful about how I phrase this.
01:54I talked to somebody in the organization.
01:56I said, look, like, this decision is going to come,
01:59and when it comes, what am I, you know,
02:01what are we going to be able to say about the starter?
02:03Like, the starter can do X, or this is Y, that this ultimately happened.
02:07And what I was told was, you know,
02:10the Browns kind of look at the quarterback spot like it's,
02:13this is like 70 plays, right?
02:16It's 70 opportunities for a quarterback to go to the line of scrimmage
02:19in Todd Munkin's offense, and it's 70 decisions you've got to make.
02:23Whether you're throwing the ball or you're running the ball,
02:25you have to align all these different decisions in order to have,
02:29you know, a successful play.
02:31And, you know, so this individual is going through.
02:34Like, here's all the things in Todd's system you're going to have to do.
02:37A quarterback's going to have to do.
02:38And as it's piling up in my mind, even then, I was thinking, man, yeah,
02:42this is a lot.
02:42Like, you're not just, you're not managing an offense.
02:45You're running it at the line of scrimmage.
02:48And so, you know, goes through all this stuff,
02:51and then it, you know, basically caps it off of, like, you know,
02:54Todd asks his quarterbacks to do a lot at the line of scrimmage.
02:57I'm like, okay.
02:59And then later, when I talked to Munkin, you know,
03:01he had the same bullet points that he's had all camp about, you know,
03:05stacking plays and points and all that stuff.
03:09But, you know, he was very emphatic about we've got to win.
03:13Like, we have to win now.
03:16And, you know, we talked a little later on beyond that point just about,
03:21you know, I told him he kind of reminded me of Bruce Arians.
03:24And these are both coaches that are very blunt guys.
03:28They got their first NFL, you know,
03:30head coaching job late in their careers.
03:32And they didn't have time to broker BS, basically.
03:35Like, look, I'm not going to play the developmental game.
03:38And it felt like, you know, that's where Munkin was coming from.
03:41And he even said at one point, I can't worry about down the road.
03:45Like, I'm not here to worry about down the road.
03:47And so, looking back, I'm like,
03:49I should have just married those two concepts and known.
03:51Like, it's going to be Deshaun because it's going to have to be the guy
03:54who can go to the line and do the 50 things that need to be done
03:58at the line of scrimmage to the best of his ability.
04:02And then, at the same time, if you're not worried about down the road,
04:04well, Shador's the down the road guy.
04:08So, looking back, I kind of felt like, yeah, it was pretty baked in.
04:11And then, once, obviously, Deshaun had his emotional moment,
04:15said what he said in the press conference, and I was just like, whoa.
04:17Like, at that moment, I'm like, I don't know how you could even do it now.
04:20But then, Todd immediately followed up with,
04:23that's not going to play into the decision.
04:25I was like, okay.
04:26It kind of felt like it was what it was going to be.
04:30And so, once it happened, I think my mind sort of moved to, okay,
04:34well, now what are the questions?
04:36Like, the success or failure of this, does that weigh on Munkin's, you know,
04:41like, reputation in the building?
04:43Where does Shador go from here?
04:46And, you know, and then even for Watson, like, what is success?
04:49Like, what is the measure?
04:50What's the benchmark?
04:51Because if it's wins, and he's not winning games, but he's playing good football,
04:56I've just been told repeatedly it's about winning games, right?
04:59So, there's definitely, you know, I think more that goes into it than just Deshaun's history.
05:08It's like, how can he operate this particular offense?
05:11And maybe that's the narrower sort of path that I should have been looking at that I wasn't.
05:17But, Jeff and I spent a little time today talking about things that are unsaid by the decisions that are
05:25made, right?
05:26So, like, they trade Miles, pick up a first-round draft pick.
05:31The unsaid thing there is, ooh, two first-round draft picks.
05:34They've got an opportunity for court.
05:36Same thing here.
05:37Like, you don't start Shador.
05:41What are you saying, really, about his long-term future?
05:43That's, like, it's the unsaid things and the actions that you're pulling off that we're still, like,
05:49we're trying to figure that out.
05:51And so...
05:51With the 2027 draft just months away.
05:54Yeah.
05:54So, like, what do you think the unsaid things or the byproducts of these decisions are leading us to?
06:02Does that make sense?
06:03Yeah.
06:04Well, I mean, I said, I think, much to the dismay of Browns fans when they traded Miles
06:09and they brought in Jared Verse and, you know, netted the pick and all that.
06:16I told people that organizationally they felt like they were one more offseason away.
06:21And I thought the read-between-the-lines text there was, you know, we're a quarterback away.
06:33We're one more.
06:33Because so much of the offense and defense looked shored up with young players.
06:37As long as the developmental arc was going where it was going to go, the one significant outlier,
06:46and I can't tell you how many GMs will freely admit this, you know, when you're talking to them on
06:51background,
06:51if you do not, no matter how good your team is, if you don't have that resolve, that quarterback,
06:56you're always going to be stuck in this quagmire of we're good on all these, you know,
07:04and all these other facets, but we just can't, you know, fix the quarterback spot.
07:07So to me, you know, and I said this when the Garrett trade went down.
07:11I think I said it on X.
07:12Like, they feel like they're – or I might have said it on the show.
07:14I mean, I can't even remember.
07:15I just remember people flipped out because they're like, I'm tired of hearing that.
07:19And I'm like, well, but that's the reality.
07:21You might be tired of hearing it, but it doesn't change that it's a reality.
07:24When I go through Arizona this year and I talk to them and they're like, hey,
07:28here's the things we feel good about, they know the underlying reality to everything is
07:33they don't have any idea whether or not they have the 2027 quarterback on the roster.
07:37So I don't even know that necessarily it needs to be said.
07:42I think everybody sees it.
07:43And I will – I think one repercussion of starting Deshaun that I thought of immediately is,
07:51well, this shortens the runway for Shadur to prove himself in the franchise.
07:57Because you've got to do that.
07:58Jeff said that.
07:59That's what I think, too.
08:00Yeah.
08:01You have to do that in games.
08:02So, however, like, let's just play this out.
08:05Let's say Deshaun, you know, plays to a standard where he ends up starting.
08:10If he starts the whole season, well, then you haven't resolved anything because I don't know
08:14that you can necessarily – that he can necessarily be the future at quarterback.
08:17I mean, unless it's just gangbusters.
08:20And either way, you'd have to contend with free agency.
08:23And with the way this league is, you'd probably end up having to bid.
08:26I don't – I just don't think that's a road you can go down.
08:28I'd be – I just don't.
08:31And then, you know, so if Deshaun starts the season, I think you're going to the drawing board
08:37at quarterback.
08:38If Deshaun starts half the season, well, that's only half the season now that Shadur's got
08:42an opportunity to prove himself quickly enough, you know, to force himself into that conversation
08:50coming in the offseason.
08:51And I'm just telling you, like, this 2027 class, it's not relenting, this idea that the
08:56quarterbacks are – when I went through Carolina, I spent time with a number of personnel people,
09:02and the 2027 draft came up, and I'm like, you know, they're all working ahead right now
09:06in that class.
09:07And I said, how many quarterbacks do you think are going in the first?
09:11They said, bare minimum, five.
09:12They're like, five.
09:14Unless injuries happen, that's how deep this class is going to be.
09:16And they're like, and it's not only deep, it's – they're stars, like legitimate cornerstone
09:21stars.
09:23So I just – I don't think anything's really changed other than the fact that, you know,
09:29you're starting off with a veteran.
09:30And I do agree with the assessment that most organizations feel like it's easier to start
09:36with a veteran and flip to the young guy versus the reverse, you know, just because of what
09:43it, you know, speaks to with the team.
09:45It just, you know, sometimes you start with a young, unproven player, and especially if
09:49things start out poorly quickly, there becomes questions in the building, like, are we really
09:54trying to win games?
09:55You know, what am I doing here?
09:57And it can weigh, I think, on just the overall thought process of guys coming in every day
10:04to work.
10:05So it is what it is, guys.
10:07Like, I don't know.
10:08I don't think – I'd be surprised if Deshaun all of a sudden turns into, you know, a quality
10:12player.
10:13I think he can just function in Munkin's offense.
10:15And I bet you, you know, you run the football a lot.
10:19You play – you know, you play good defense.
10:22That's – here's one thing I will ask you, and I do think this deserves to be explored.
10:26What if – and I wasn't told this, but I thought about this.
10:30What if the thought process is, hey, we also have young – you know, we have a core of
10:36young players on offense who we have to bring along.
10:39So we need things to go right.
10:41We need things to be aligned right.
10:43We don't – you know, we need things to be clean.
10:45We need to play with tempo to develop those players as well.
10:51What if it's harder to do that?
10:53If you're like, all right, let's go through the Shadur growth process this season.
10:57It might be uneven.
10:59Does that not then affect other players that now have to grow too?
11:03When you're playing with a player who's going through his own growth and might be having,
11:10you know, a roller coaster experience, it now forces you also on that roller coaster.
11:14So creating a better experience for next year's first-round draft choice to come into a team
11:19that's already established.
11:20Which, to me, what you're kind of saying is I'm like – I would – you know what
11:23you would really like here?
11:24Joe Flacco from two years ago to help those guys develop.
11:27Is that kind of where you're going?
11:29Like, that's –
11:29I don't have any – I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't – I liked Joe.
11:33Like, I thought Joe was – I mean, Joe was going to be Joe and knew he was going to
11:36do –
11:37he's probably going to throw for 350 yards and then he was going to throw two really
11:41horrible picks that cost you the game.
11:43But, you know, it's – you kind of knew what you were getting and I think functionally
11:49he – you know, he's capable of bringing out – we – like, remember when Joe came in,
11:54we saw – I saw offensive players who were not showing up all of a sudden.
11:59I'm like, whoa.
12:00Yes.
12:00Okay, so now I'm starting to see a tight end who's got a ton of talent.
12:04Now he's showing up again, you know, in the offense.
12:06We've got wideouts that are showing up in the offense.
12:09So I do think there is an element of you also have to bring along – there are other
12:14younger players on that offense who need to be brought along and who need to grow and
12:18it's harder for them to grow if the person who's the centerpiece of that offense, you
12:23can't do everything you want to do.
12:24So let's just say – let's say with Deshaun, you can put him out there.
12:30He can do, you know, checks in terms of the motions.
12:33You can do all that stuff.
12:35Like, basically, you just have the full suite of pre-snap available to you.
12:38Now, post-snap, maybe it's – he's not identifying certain things or what – you
12:44know, who knows what happens post-snap.
12:45But at least pre-snap, you can run a cleaner offense and you can run a cleaner tempo and
12:51players get used to that, right?
12:52It helps them, you know.
12:55It helps that development.
12:57Post-snap would be great too, but I'm just trying to figure out, like, what is the calculus
13:02here of why you would choose a Deshaun at this stage if you really kind of feel like
13:09it's limited or there's a cap.
13:12But I don't think Munkin's lying when he says, I'm going to choose the guy who's going
13:17to help me win games.
13:19Clearly, he believes that.
13:21So now I think that becomes the measure of Deshaun.
13:23I'm like, all right, I'll take you at your word.
13:24Let's see how many games you can win.
13:26Charles Robinson joining us, NFLBlueBook.com, and you can get his newsletter delivered to
13:31your mail.
13:31You can go right to NFLBlueBook.com and get that every morning.
13:34Can you not, Charles?
13:35Or every morning you put it out.
13:37Yeah, absolutely.
13:39It's free to subscribe.
13:40I have, by the way.
13:42Me too.
13:42I appreciate that.
13:43I saw you guys come in.
13:45I'm actually working on Brown's piece right now trying to, I gathered all this stuff and
13:50I'm like, I'll use this, you know, I'll keep this and like use it later in the season.
13:53But now I'm like, I should probably just use this right now.
13:56Here we go.
13:57They're not going to bring in anybody else at quarterback, right?
14:00This is it?
14:02I don't.
14:03Well, we saw what they did last year.
14:04That's why we keep asking.
14:06Because here's the thing.
14:07I would have to question, like, what's the familiarity?
14:10And like Todd and I, at one point we were talking about, you know, he just straight up
14:15said, he said, he's like, everybody would love to have a Lamar Jackson.
14:19He's like, but, you know, this is just, this is what it is.
14:23There aren't many of those guys to go around.
14:25And he was very clear.
14:26He's like, look, when you have a Lamar, everybody else is just fighting it out for second and
14:30third place, right?
14:31So then when you think of, like, who's Todd exposed to, who are you going to bring in?
14:35You know, who has he had a wealth of experience, you know, with that's going to become available?
14:41It's certainly not going to be Lamar Jackson.
14:43So I just don't know at this point, now that you've been through the offseason program with
14:47these guys, who can help you at this stage?
14:51Unless somebody completely, it's like a shocker, frees up.
14:55Um, and, and someone's out there, but I don't, I don't know how to foresee that happening.
15:00I don't think they're bringing in as the quarterback.
15:01I'd be stunned if they did.
15:03Charles, always a pleasure.
15:04Thank you for being with us.
15:07NFLbluebook.com.
15:08It's Charles' website.
15:09You can go to it.
15:10Tons of great information on the NFL.
15:12You can sign up for his email letter that'll show up in your inbox.
15:16And it's good stuff.
15:17Charles, thank you very much.
15:18Thanks, Charles.
15:19Absolutely.
15:20Appreciate it, guys.
15:20Take care.
15:21Charles Robinson joining us.
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