00:00Okay, let me go to my first newsmaker tonight, the former Home Minister and Finance Minister
00:04of the country, P. Chidambaram, Senior Rajasabha, MP of the Congress, joining me. Good to have
00:08you, Mr. Chidambaram, on the show. Your leader, Rahul Gandhi, today has called for Gyanesh
00:14Kumar to resign and, in fact, turned approver in the case, accusing him virtually of treason
00:19and of having the elections rigged. Your view, should Gyanesh Kumar resign based on the news
00:27reports in the Indian Express or should there be first a proper inquiry, a fair hearing?
00:33First a proper inquiry, a fair hearing?
00:35He should. He should step down and then an inquiry can be ordered. In fact, not only Mr. Rahul
00:44Gandhi, Mr. Karge and several others have asked for his resignation. In fact, I find that this
00:54morning's papers, a couple of papers have asked for his resignation. If he has any sense
01:01of contriteness, any sense of responsibility, he should resign immediately.
01:07Why? What, according to you, is the biggest charge against Gyanesh Kumar that, in your view,
01:15should lead to his immediate resignation? In your view, should lead to his immediate resignation?
01:21There are two separate charges, two separate heads of charges. One that was revealed yesterday
01:29today is that he is acting as though he is the election commissioner. He is not the election
01:36commissioner. The election commission is a multi-member body. The other two are equals. He is the first
01:49among equals, like in the Supreme Court or the High Court, a three-judge bench, is all equals. Then, the
01:59majority rule will prevail or the unanimity rule will prevail. If he is in the minority, as the other two
02:08commissioners have pointed out in several instances, then that, his view cannot be the decision of the election
02:18commission. But he has passed off his view as the election commission's decision. This is ultra-virus.
02:25This is unconstitutional. This is, I don't want to use the strong word which my party leaders have used,
02:35may amount to treason.
02:38No, you are saying that, but the fact is the election commission has put out a press release saying that
02:43all the
02:43decisions were unanimous. And the fact is that the other two election commissioners therefore possibly fell in line.
02:56Let's see the file. Let's see the decision. Let's see the deliberations. Let's see the notes file.
03:04Then we will draw our own conclusion. We are not dumb. Indian people are not dumb or stupid.
03:12You release the entire file and we will draw our own conclusions whether the allegation is correct or the
03:20explanation is correct.
03:21So, you are saying if Gyanesh Kumar has turned the election commission into a one-man show, overruled his
03:29other fellow election commissioners who called certain decisions illegal and unauthorized, that's the
03:35reason you believe that he has to go. But there will be those who will say the Congress is trying
03:40to build
03:40a narrative. Rahul Gandhi today trying to build a narrative seemingly suggesting that all elections since
03:462024 have been rigged, the entire electoral rolls of this country have been rigged. I mean, if they have been
03:53rigged,
03:53then why are you contesting elections?
03:59Please understand, the files will disclose whether the allegation is true or the explanation is true.
04:09We did not start the subject. It is the Indian Express's investigation investigating journalist who started the
04:19subject. We did not invent it. We are going by the allegations. We are going by the facts disclosed. We
04:29are
04:29asking for the files and the note sheet and we will draw our own conclusion. The people of India will
04:37draw their own
04:37conclusion. Why are you hiding behind secrecy and opaqueness?
04:43No, it's a constitutional body. You are saying the constitutional body's deliberation should be made public.
04:49You are saying constitutional body deliberation should be made public.
04:56What is secret about this constitutional body? The Supreme Court is a constitutional body. It makes available its
05:11proceedings on live telecast. The legislature is a constitutional body. The Tamil Nadu legislature has a 24 by 7 live
05:23telecast. What is great about this word constitutional body? A constitutional body must be informed by transparency, transparency and openness.
05:36You did not answer my question. Your leader is saying all recent elections have been rigged. If they have been
05:42rigged then why are you contesting elections if you have lost faith in the electoral process?
05:50We have lost faith in the electoral process for many, many reasons. We have said that. Sir, SIR is one
06:00damaging reason why the ordinary people of India have lost faith in elections. Please understand one thing. Lacks of people
06:11have been removed from the electoral roll. I know several law
06:16lawyers have been removed. One lawyer and his wife had to go to the Gujarat CEO a dozen times to
06:27prove that he is a citizen. He has voted in many, many elections. He was a candidate in one election.
06:36His nomination was accepted. Then what does he have to prove?
06:41You remember Amartya Sen was issued a notice. I believe Mr. Advani was issued a notice. What is this going
06:54on?
06:54So are you saying the SIR process should be suspended immediately all over the country?
07:06We have tweeted that not only me, S.Y. Qureshi, the former chief election commissioner, has said that the SIR
07:16process must be suspended. Ashok Lavaza, a former election commissioner, has tweeted that the SIR process must be suspended.
07:28According to me, the SIR process must be immediately suspended. And after an inquiry, it must be reversed.
07:37You are also saying all decisions of the ECI in recent years should be reviewed by a parliamentary committee. Are
07:44you therefore saying, effectively, if these decisions were seen by two of the election commissioners as unauthorized and illegal, are
07:53you saying all the recent elections, therefore, also the election outcome should be reviewed?
07:58That you want a repoll? I have heard Kapil Sibbal saying that all the elections in the last two years,
08:05or the election suddenly under SIR, there should be a repoll.
08:12Mr. Sibbal is capable of defending his views and explaining his views.
08:18I have said that the election commissioners can only be impeached, impeached by parliament. There is no other way to
08:26remove them.
08:27I am stopping one step short of that impeachment.
08:33Let the parliamentary committee review the entire files for the last three, four years, including the SIR files, including the
08:46decisions by the election commission, and let the parliamentary committee give its view.
08:54Let me ask you one more time. There will be those, particularly from the BJP, who are saying Congress have
09:00been sore losers.
09:02And because you've lost so many elections, you've found a scapegoat in Gyanesh Kumar and the election commission, that you're
09:09throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
09:11Dissent is part of election commission proceedings. The Congress, on the basis of that, cannot call for the resignation of
09:18Gyanesh Kumar.
09:19But they should look within, as to why they are losing elections.
09:25Which is the baby, which is the bathwater?
09:28If you provoke me, I will say the election commission is the baby.
09:33Mr. Gyanesh Kumar is the bathwater.
09:36Therefore, please understand, in phase one of the SIR, 65 lakhs were deleted.
09:43That accounts for 7.9%.
09:46In phase two, 6.5 crore were deleted.
09:53That accounts for 12.6% of the adult population.
09:57In phase three, 6.1 crore were deleted.
10:03That amounts to a whopping 17.18% respectively.
10:09Until their appeals are decided, they can't vote.
10:12And in West Bengal alone, the Supreme Court was told, and I've made my calculations,
10:20in West Bengal alone, it will take 20 years to dispose of the pending appeals.
10:27And remember, there are judges who are appointed to hear the appeals.
10:3291% of appeals were allowed.
10:36What does it mean?
10:38If 91% of a judgment of a judge, judgments of a judge are reversed, he's unfit to be a
10:46judgment.
10:47Unfit to be a judge.
10:4991% of the appeals have been allowed in West Bengal.
10:53So you're saying that's under the logical differences out of the cases heard so far.
10:57You're telling me Gyanesh Kumar is unfit to be the chief election commissioner of the country.
11:02But you didn't respond to my question time and again.
11:07Will you boycott, do you believe, would you advise the Congress to boycott future elections?
11:11Yes or no?
11:12And is the Congress a sore loser, yes or no?
11:18I can't give my advice on television.
11:22That is the CWC will decide.
11:25CWC's meeting, I believe, on Tuesday.
11:28The CWC will decide the course of action.
11:32I can't pronounce what is the course of action.
11:37What's your view?
11:38You're playing very safe there.
11:39What's your view?
11:40Do you believe that opposition parties should come together and take far greater action than they have so far?
11:46If you believe so strongly, if your leader believes so strongly that elections are being rigged?
11:55One thing, opposition parties must get together.
11:59Opposition parties must act together.
12:03Opposition parties must take the further steps together.
12:07What steps they will take, the CWC will decide and then the all-party meeting will decide.
12:15My final question, which you again didn't answer, which you sidestepped a bit.
12:21BJP is saying Congress is a sore loser.
12:23There is no anti-incumbency against Mr. Modi as Rahul Gandhi believes.
12:27A quick answer.
12:32What else will the BJP say?
12:36Let the next election take place under fair and reasonable circumstances, then we will see who the people back and
12:48who the people will defeat.
12:50I believe that the BJP will be defeated in a nationwide election for parliament in if the elections are held
12:59on a free and fair basis and the electoral rolls do not have these crores of deletions.
13:08And you are saying the next election should be held, you are saying Gyanesh Kumar should not be as the
13:14head of the election commission when those elections are held.
13:16You have lost faith in Gyanesh Kumar and you will go ahead and try and impeach him.
13:22Yes.
13:23And you will go ahead and try and impeach him.
13:26Well, I don't know what the CWC will say.
13:28I can only point out the legal position.
13:32The election commissioners can only be removed by impeachment.
13:37Therefore, the CWC will decide on the next course of action.
13:42But if the next election is held without Mr. Gyanesh Kumar and the present ECI, it will be a fair
13:51and free election.
13:53Okay.
13:54I'm going to leave it there, Mr. Chidambaram.
13:56I appreciate you joining me here on the news today.
