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William Branham Historical Research
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John invites Menno to share his story of spending roughly four decades in churches and ministries he later came to associate with the New Apostolic Reformation. Menno traces his journey from the Netherlands to the United States and explains how researching leaders, churches, ministries, and overlapping networks led him to create NAR Connections. Their discussion explores the Toronto Blessing, shepherding, Word of Faith, church-growth structures, apostolic and prophetic networks, and the gradual blurring of denominational boundaries.

John and Menno also discuss the NAR as an interconnected ecosystem rather than a single denomination, comparing modern networks with earlier religious movements and organizational structures. They examine how megachurches, ministry networks, business connections, entertainment, theology, and other institutions can overlap, while Menno explains the purpose of his research, his upcoming NAR Connections book, and what he believes people should consider when discovering similar influences in their own churches.

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Transcript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Mino Zuiers, author of NAR Connections.
00:47Mino, it's good to finally connect with you and to let you share your story on the podcast.
00:52I want to say before you get into the story that I have used your website, NAR Connections, extensively.
01:00It's a great tool.
01:01If you are researching the New Apostolic Reformation, go out there and look at the website.
01:05You can see all of these connections and get information.
01:08And I understand it's a work in progress and ongoing project, but this was a helpful project for me.
01:14And with that, I'll let you introduce yourself.
01:16If you could just tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
01:20Thank you for having me, John.
01:22Fantastic.
01:23Yeah, we've been in touch for quite a while.
01:27And a little history about myself.
01:29I mean, I've been in NAR for like 40 years, four decades.
01:36Started, born and raised in the Netherlands.
01:40And basically an AOG church, an Assemblies of God church.
01:46And from there, I have been, basically the church was started by Mr. Brunsfeld.
01:57And Mr. Brunsfeld went to a tent meeting from T.L. Osborne.
02:04So that's already your first red flag.
02:06Yeah.
02:08Back then, I had no idea.
02:10So who is T.L. Osborne, you know?
02:12I mean, I've been born and raised in that church.
02:16And then we had so many different streams of things coming in.
02:21We had the Toronto Blessing coming in.
02:23We had Dark Prince Ministries, at least in the Netherlands.
02:28But I think it was the European office that was connected to our church.
02:34Of course, the shepherding movement along with it, that came with it.
02:40And then the pastor, it was a hostile takeover from the son-in-law.
02:47And from there, it went more charismatic.
02:51And at some point, he left to start a church in Amsterdam.
02:55I was in Haarlem.
02:57And it became kind of like a denomination on its own.
03:03At some point, they had like 50-plus churches across the country.
03:07And the Netherlands is not big, right?
03:08So for the Netherlands, it's quite a large network.
03:12I think it was the largest church network that was out there.
03:17And he was the general.
03:19Well, that term sounds familiar, too.
03:23I had no idea.
03:24So, I mean, he was the general.
03:26Like, okay.
03:27But yeah, so he started a church.
03:30My parents went actually with him to start a church in Amsterdam.
03:37And alongside, he had, he started kind of like the five-fold ministries there with five different pastors and their
03:45wives.
03:46And one of them is Arlene Westerhoff.
03:48And I'll come back to her later.
03:50But her and her husband have now Dominion Center in the Netherlands.
03:58All these buzzwords are sounding so familiar for a lot of people here.
04:03And then, so then I, the pastor fell.
04:08So Rob Allard was like a scandal, a money scandal.
04:13And it was kind of like the G12.
04:15So the M12, actually.
04:18So you had the G12, which is kind of like the shepherding movement in the new dress.
04:24And then you have a different variety, which is called M12.
04:29And so the G12 we had in Haarlem and the M12 we had in Amsterdam.
04:34And that model came from Sunday Adalia, who is from Kiev, Ukraine.
04:41And he was commanded and promoted by C.P. Wagner.
04:49All these things I learned later.
04:52But yeah, that was very interesting to get, to understand that.
04:58So then when he fell, the pastor, I went to a small community in Rilland.
05:06Netherlands is not that far, but two hours from where I lived.
05:10And that community was really into the Toronto blessing.
05:13They went there.
05:14They saw, they took pictures, you know, and saw orbs.
05:18And they told everyone that they had golden teeth.
05:24And they had all kinds of weird, weird things that, you know, they saw angels.
05:32And you had to soak on the floor, lay down and absorb the New Age music, basically.
05:39And so that was an abusive church.
05:43So the leader was very, very narcissistic even.
05:50And so a year in, I left and I went back to my, to the church where I've been born
05:56and raised in,
05:58which basically was born out of, you know, Latterain and NAR, which I didn't know.
06:06But it was the mildest church, kind of in the charismatic still, which is interesting.
06:12So I went back and all to say, I mean, Jan Paul was the pastor back then.
06:19I love that guy.
06:21I have nothing against him, but the teachings are not okay, right?
06:26So anybody that will hear me, you know, I have nothing against the people.
06:33I've got something against the theology and the misuse of scripture.
06:39So from there, I went to the United States, so I got married.
06:47And Minnesota, I started going to Substance Church in Minnesota, in Minneapolis.
06:52And Substance Church was an ARC church.
06:55And so, okay, well, interesting.
06:59ARC is the Association of Related Churches.
07:04And Chris Hodges is one of the leaders there.
07:08And I'll tie it all together at the end, because that's the interesting part.
07:14So, first of all, the name of Berea was actually in Amsterdam, in Haarlem.
07:22The church was Berea.
07:23And that's kind of an interesting name, because, you know, everything went on feelings.
07:30And they went to Toronto, and they felt it was okay, right?
07:34So it was from the Lord.
07:35So it's nothing to do with what the real Bereans did.
07:40And then now I come into the U.S., and I come into the church substance.
07:44Now, if you know anything about ARC churches, there's not so much substance to be found in these sermons.
07:52It's kind of like a pep talk.
07:55So from there, we wanted more substance, so we went to Living Word in Minneapolis.
08:01And you think, okay, you'll find the Word, but that was mistaken.
08:09On the board of directors was Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagen, Jr.
08:17And all the heavyweights came there, like Craffield Dollar, Keith Moore, Jesse Duplantis, Todd White.
08:25I mean, the whole shebang of the Word of Faith was present there.
08:31And then we moved to Nashville, Tennessee, where we still are.
08:35We went to the Belonging.
08:36And so during that time, I was here in Nashville.
08:41I came out of the NAR through a pastor that had like a charismatic, basically dismantling the charismatic chaos in
08:53a whole year.
08:54And from there, basically, the real turning point was John McCarthy's Strange Fire Conference.
09:01I've seen the conference.
09:03I read the books.
09:04And they're, you know, watching all the YouTube channels from Chris Roseborough to Doreen Virtue, Stephen Kosar, and the like.
09:13So I saw Doreen Virtue, and she had Holly Pifacon.
09:19And, you know, she was like talking about, you know, the church and if your church is part of the
09:27NAR.
09:27And basically, I started researching, and that research was shocking.
09:35I was basically screenshotting everything that I saw, all the leaders in the NAR, some 200 leaders.
09:43And what I found was bizarre.
09:46So basically, I think I emailed you.
09:48I emailed many people like, hey, I've got this database of information.
09:55Can you do anything with it?
09:57I see all the connections here.
09:59And then I think it was Andrew Rappaport who told me, like, hey, why don't you start a website?
10:05I was like, hmm, okay, why not?
10:08So that's when I started NAR Connections.
10:11And so when I dive deeper into all the images that I shot, I was shocked but not shocked.
10:19And I was, I mean, from, so first of all, the church that had the belonging in Nashville was under
10:27the leadership of James Goal.
10:29And he is part of the Hymn Network, the Harvest International Ministries from Cheon.
10:37And so I went, you know, I found another connection, which is the Substance Church, basically Peter Haas.
10:48He called Chris Hodges his pastor.
10:51And Chris Hodges, well, Chris Rosebrook did a dissected video of Cheon explaining that some 20 Megachers pastors came to
11:03him and were basically saying, hey, we've been calling ourselves pastors, but actually we are apostles.
11:11And so he recognized basically, and he named names.
11:15He said, Robert Morris, Chris Hodges, Larry Stockstill, and 20 some other pastors.
11:21So, okay, that is, you know, if I have a bingo card, there's bingo number two.
11:28Of course, you have your word of faith, which is kind of interconnected with NAR anyway.
11:33So living word I leave out for now.
11:35But then, shocking, you know, the Netherlands, where I grew up.
11:40I was like, no, you can't, you can't, you can't tell me that that is NAR, right?
11:45So I went to look for, well, I actually, when I was working on James Goal, I saw a picture
11:53with a smiling Arlene Westerhoff, who was the co-pastrix of the Fivefold Ministry in Amsterdam, with the general on
12:03the top, right?
12:05So everything clicked, I was like, okay, this is interesting.
12:10That explains why Heidi Baker was there, Stacey Campbell was there, Patricia King was there.
12:16So all these connecting the dots.
12:19And then also when I started researching Berea, and then, of course, I understood the Kansas City Prophets.
12:25And then T.L. Osborne, I'm like, my entire life with different flavors, like different flavors of ice cream, different
12:33flavors of churches, because AOG, and then Arc Churches, a living word, you know, which is a word of faith.
12:41Or in Nashville, the belonging, belonging was kind of like a mixture of Hillsong and Bethel and Elevation kind of
12:49thing, right?
12:49So it was all kind of a different flavor, but all of it was on the top, connected through the
12:58New Apostolic Reformation.
12:59And Arlene Westerhoff is on the ACPE, the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders, where Cindy Jacobs is the head of.
13:09And under him, the Harvest Ministry of International Ministries of Cheyenne.
13:14And I saw a picture where she is basically made an apostle by Cheyenne.
13:20So all that work basically became also very personal all of a sudden, right?
13:27So my entire life, I've been in that circle.
13:30And I saw how widespread that whole movement was.
13:34So that's when I started to, you know, make the connections.
13:39And since Andrew said, like, hey, maybe you should do the website.
13:43So that's how I created narconnections.com and map out everything to show people that it goes further than your
13:58fringe, crazy apostles and prophets.
14:02There are so many people that are lending their credibility to the whole NAR, willingly or not.
14:13I don't know.
14:14It depends on the person.
14:16You can be that deceived that you're, you know, that you're part of that whole group and don't see it.
14:22But yeah, I needed to show people, like, because I was lost, right?
14:27And I wanted to give people something that they can look up.
14:30And that became NAR Connections.
14:32It's very interesting because just hearing your life story, it's like a life story of NAR Connections.
14:38And ironically, it matches not in the same way because I was looking at historical references long that came long
14:45before what you were talking about.
14:46But as I'm looking up names from the 40s, 50s and 60s, I'm doing the same thing, but from the
14:52bottom up and you're going from the top down.
14:53And the interesting part about that, the most interesting part is this.
14:58When C. Peter Wagner gave it the name New Apostolic Reformation, he said, all of these things already exist.
15:05We have all of these networks.
15:06I'm seeing this thing develop.
15:07It's already in existence.
15:08And when you say it in the way that he says it, it sounds very, very flat.
15:15There's this network.
15:16There are these nodes in the network.
15:17They're connected to other networks.
15:19That sounds very flat.
15:20What I've come to learn over time is that it isn't just one network and it isn't just one set
15:27of networks.
15:28They have built upon layers and layers and layers of networks.
15:32And they treat the people as though they're commodities so that they can reuse those commodities.
15:39So the network exists.
15:41The infrastructure exists.
15:43The theme, the ideology may change.
15:45And so they're built on top of that network another layer and then interface with it.
15:49So you have all these network layers that are spreading out very wide, but you also have them stacking vertically.
15:56I recently, I think it comes out after this one.
15:58I did a podcast talking about Christian fundamentalism.
16:02It was doing the same thing.
16:03They had fundamentalist networks.
16:05Those were networked with Christian identity leaders.
16:07They were networked with even what would become the evangelical movement.
16:11You had all this vast network that was flat.
16:14Well, in that network, one of the key figures working with the most infamous and notorious Christian identity guy was
16:22Charles E. Fuller, who founded the Fuller Theological Seminary that, you know, C. Peter Wagner taught at for years.
16:29So you have all of these networks that interface up.
16:32And if you can understand how that interface develops over time, you can understand why people make the decisions that
16:40they do.
16:40But more importantly, why their theology is so skewed from what it should be.
16:45I know that people listen to NAR leaders and they think, yeah, that theology is just really off from the
16:51Bible.
16:51Well, where did he get this from?
16:53We have to look historically through these vertical layers and then you can see how this happens.
16:57So it's really, really interesting.
16:59But the part that you brought out that really helped me to learn was that it wasn't just NAR is
17:06not just a denomination.
17:07And I was trying to understand NAR, but more than that, I was trying to learn how it connected to
17:12my research, the Pentecostalism charismatic movement.
17:15And I came to realize that it was really more of an ecosystem than it was even a religion.
17:22And once you grasp that concept, the whole world of research opens up because now you can go down all
17:28of these different pathways.
17:29True, correct.
17:30And, well, I call it also the blur because what they've done, I mean, if you look at the Assemblies
17:38of God, right?
17:39In 1949, I believe it was, they basically said, like in their statements, you know, the latter rain, they condemned
17:50the latter rain and its theology.
17:55Now, you know, two generations later, you see an organization called Empower 21 as an example.
18:07And you see, well, previously, because he passed away, but George Wood, together with Billy Wilson from Oral Roberts University,
18:21sitting together on a global council as co-chairs, and on the global council, you have Cindy Jacobs, Teyon, Bill
18:32Johnson, and some ICO members.
18:35And you think like, how did this happen?
18:40I mean, I thought they, that wouldn't mix that well, right?
18:45But, and if you look at the mission, in the mission, there's buried in there somewhere, the Seven Mountain Mandate.
18:55So, you cannot tell me that they don't know.
18:58I mean, they're the most outspoken NAR people, even on the global council.
19:06So, you cannot tell me that Mr. Root didn't know.
19:09But they, you know, so on paper, it looks like they deny it.
19:14And I'm not saying that all the Assemblies of God churches are doing that.
19:18But at the top, there's, you know, Doc Clay is on there, who is now the superintendent.
19:25You've got an ICO member.
19:27And also, there's Samuel Rodriguez, who is an Assemblies of God.
19:32But you have Cindy Jacobs, who is now part of the Trinity, I believe Trinity Church, or I believe it's
19:39Trinity Church.
19:40Don't pin me on it.
19:41But the church with Jim Hennessey.
19:43And it's one of the 15 largest Assemblies of God churches.
19:49And they host the, every year, the big prophetic summit, right?
19:56Of Cindy Jacobs.
19:57And Cindy Jacobs is there.
19:59And they're apostles or whatever.
20:01I don't know.
20:03And, like, you know, how did that blur happen?
20:06But, of course, they went on the ground.
20:08And they basically pushed it.
20:11And then it surfaced back up, I guess, on the surface as a different movement.
20:18And I think also, and I wrote that in the book.
20:23And I think on the website as well, that you had, for instance, Bill Heyman, who is, you know, who
20:32came out of the lettering, right?
20:34He's one of the oldest, or maybe the oldest in that movement.
20:40And he had theology, and then you have C. Peter Wagner, who had, you know, who was systematic and basically
20:50made it mainstream.
20:51And together, they basically made it palatable for churches to adopt.
20:59So it's interesting to see how that all came together and now is spreading like wildfire.
21:08And you have churches like Bethel and you name it, those BSSM, so the Supernatural Schools of Ministries, that are
21:18basically spitting out the new generation.
21:30And, you know, churches have no idea what they bring in their own church.
21:34Just as an example, my cousin, he went to BSSM for three years.
21:39And he's now one of the pastors of Berea, the church that I came out of.
21:43I mean, it's no surprise it was already NAR.
21:47But how often, you know, if you speak with Richard Moore, his church is taken over by Ben Fitzgerald, one
21:55of the BSSM guys, right?
21:57So they just take over churches by storm.
22:01Well, and if you look historically what the movements, I should say, have done, they do just that.
22:07But they were building out an empire.
22:10Whenever John Alexander Dowie did what he did, and for those who are unaware, he moved into Chicago.
22:16He dominated Chicago, even politics.
22:19They were so vast that they could sway political votes.
22:23Well, eventually, he annexed Zion City, Illinois, and he created his own city, and it was a city of occult.
22:30Well, if you think about how a city works, you can't just say, I'm going to build a city and
22:35we're going to move to it.
22:35You have to have the infrastructure.
22:37You have to have the way for people to work, the way for people to eat.
22:40You have to have all of these things, and all of them are moving parts.
22:43They're all components.
22:44They're all architecture of building the city and making it operate.
22:49Well, when he was losing his mental faculties, there were so many people coming into Zion City that the newspapers
22:57said were flooded with prophets.
22:59Among them was Charles Fox Parham, the father of Pentecostalism.
23:04There were others, too, but they were – John Lake was one of the guys who came in as a
23:09Parhamite.
23:09You have all of these people who are trying to take control of that empire because that's power.
23:15It's not just money, and it is money, but it's money, sex, and power, but they want the power.
23:20That's really the thing to understand.
23:22When he died, what do you do with this?
23:25His whole city didn't just implode.
23:28The people scattered, and some of them became leaders in different networks.
23:32So much of the networks I'm talking about had leaders who were in Zion City, understood the cult mindset, but
23:38more than that, understood the architecture.
23:41So they began building, and over time, you watch these things develop and build in different areas, and they're all
23:48moving parts that work together.
23:49For example, Full Gospel Businessmen.
23:52It sits off to the side.
23:53It's charismatic.
23:54You don't really think of NAR when you think of FGBMI.
23:57They were interestingly founded by the nephew of the Kardashian patriarch, which is a funny side story, but it sits
24:05off to the side, and it has a means to fund the other organizations because it's bringing in businessmen, full
24:12gospel businessmen.
24:14So they're coming in, big business.
24:16They can fund it.
24:17They can donate all of this stuff.
24:18So you've got a business arm.
24:20You have a political arm through National Prayer Breakfast, the Fellowship Foundation.
24:25You have all of these different arms that come together.
24:28What is it?
24:29It's all architecture.
24:29If you pull one of them out, the system doesn't really work.
24:33And when you understand that architecture and why it exists, it conquers the argument that I get frequently that I'll
24:43examine some piece of the architecture, and let's say they're not NAR.
24:46They never agreed to the Seven Mountains mandate or all these things.
24:50Yes, that's true, but they're part of the network that is established to fund it, to grow it, to spread
24:57it.
24:57It exists for a sole purpose of building that empire.
25:00Yeah, and what you described is, you know, Alexander Dawes is one city, but, you know, now it's on a
25:08global scale, what they're trying to accomplish.
25:14And, of course, they have their reasons to either have Christ come back faster, or they, you know, they want
25:27to Christianize the world and put a bow on it and give it to God and say, hey, we did
25:33this for you, right?
25:34And sometimes, you know, especially when I just came out, it was just very disorienting because they have all kind
25:46of different theologies.
25:47Because there are, you know, the Pentecostals, there are people that are non-Pentecostals, but also eschatology.
25:58There are dispensationalists that are part of the NAR, and there are people that are prayerists.
26:04And, you know, if you look at, for instance, Brian Simmons and his theology, I don't know if you've seen
26:12that, but he has a really crazy theology on, you know, the corporate Christ consciousness or something like that.
26:22That's just flat-out New Age.
26:26Which, but that's one extreme, and then you have the dispensation of this, and I'm like, how can they just
26:33build together this entire network?
26:37And I get it, and it's, of course, ecumenism that is part of it as well, and that's how they're
26:49building now.
26:49So, now, you know, Empower21, as an example, if you look at the Global Council, they're coming from all different
26:57walks of life.
27:00And, like, how can they sit on that board together and work on that whole network?
27:05And each of them has their own network, and if you think of it, I mean, Cheyenne on its own,
27:11I thought he has, like, 50,000 churches that he's responsible for with his network.
27:16That's just one guy, and, okay, he's one of the top, or the top, or, you know, we can discuss
27:25that, but, I mean, he is on the top of the food chain.
27:29And then you have all the other bigwigs, and then you have all the smaller networks.
27:35So, this whole network is massive.
27:38It's a massive beast.
27:40Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
27:48reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
27:53You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:00On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
28:09John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
28:15You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
28:21If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
28:27top.
28:28And, as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
28:34watching.
28:34On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:40So, you've recently released a book that's called The NAR Connections, and I'm guessing it's a companion book for the
28:47website.
28:47It has the same title, and I'll be honest with the audience, I've not fully read the book yet.
28:53I have read the website extensively.
28:56I've not read the book yet.
28:57I received it today, and I started going through the book.
29:01There are things that stood out to me, like you mentioned the blurring, the blurring of the lines between denominationalism
29:09and what became developed into NAR.
29:12But one of the things that really stood out to me was that the wall was never torn down.
29:16I can't remember how you phrase it exactly, but essentially, you have these boundaries that bring people into the corral
29:25of New Apostolic Reformation, but they don't necessarily take them out of the denominations.
29:29And when you think about that, that's actually pretty powerful.
29:33That's exactly what Branham was doing in the Lateran movement.
29:36He would say, everybody's welcome.
29:37You can come, stay in your church.
29:39But then what happened was they might have stayed into their church and came to the revivals, but over time,
29:45they're being indoctrinated that their denominations are evil.
29:50And so what happens over time as it shifts, they start to join and become very exclusive, and it turns
29:57into an exclusive cult.
29:58Bring this to NAR, to this global scale that it is right now, and I'm trying to even imagine what
30:04that would look like if everybody just suddenly said, we're going to come out of all these denominations and we're
30:09going to be this NAR thing.
30:10How could they even hold them?
30:13And the only answer to this is you have to have the infrastructure, the architecture, the megachurches, which leads me
30:20to believe that part of the church growth strategy was a fundamental part of the architecture just simply to hold
30:27the people.
30:28Absolutely.
30:29Absolutely.
30:29And if you think about it, the groundwork for the megachurches and for the, if you look at church growth,
30:41basically, if you go back to the basics, you have Bob Buford, if I'm saying that right, then you have
30:49Bill Hybels, and you have Rick Warren.
30:52And basically, those three, they created kind of that seeker-driven church, and basically, if you want church to grow,
31:04you want more people in, so you knock on the doors and ask unchurched people what they want to have,
31:12what they like in church, and what they want in church, to invite them into the church.
31:17So basically, so that is interesting, if you look at the connections there.
31:24So we've got Rick Warren, who had two mentors.
31:28One mentor was Robert Schuller, and the other mentor was Peter Drucker.
31:34Peter Drucker was already a guy that was interested in the whole church growth movement, because he was a guru
31:43in growing organizations and companies, right?
31:49So that whole structure, that whole idea, they brought that into the church.
31:55And then you have the combination with Rick Warren being the student of C. Peter Wagner at Fuller, and there
32:04you have that connection again, right?
32:06And he introduced him also to Peter Drucker, if I'm correct.
32:10So C. Peter Wagner now is also connected, and with Rick Warren, and with Peter Drucker, and that whole church
32:19growth movement, and then you combine it with the NAR, yeah, that whole network.
32:25And then you get Bill Haman with his theology infused in it, then you get that bomb that explodes.
32:37And, you know, you see that whole network of different churches stand up.
32:46And, yeah, of course, all the churches are kind of influenced by it, right?
32:52And they grow up, right?
32:55So that's what you see as well.
32:57The people that were churchgoers become denominational leaders, right?
33:05So, and they get to power, and they, even though the theology or the, you know, their statements on the
33:15website or earlier statements, they still stand so they can point at them like, hey, see, we don't believe that.
33:23But they turn around and go into the room with the same people, and they concoct whatever kind of idea
33:34that, you know, Jesus or that the whole world before 2033 will be imparted by the Holy Spirit or something
33:45like that.
33:46And that's, again, Empire 21, right?
33:49So with all the walls still up, with all the, because, and that's the thing, it lends credibility.
33:58So just an example, and as an example, my website has people on there like John Piper or Tim Keller.
34:08He passed away, but, you know, and the reason why these people are on there, no, they were not 100
34:16% NAR.
34:17Or, I mean, they spoke against it, but they mentored people.
34:21I mean, one of the guys is Stephen Chong, that they mentored, both of them.
34:28And they, the Australian guy from the rice movement.
34:32And I see on his Instagram and Facebook that he is imparted by Todd White and Cindy Jacobs.
34:40Right?
34:40So I'm like, and then John Piper goes a step further, you know, with the passion conferences and with the
34:49whole Hillsong and Bethel and Christine Kane and others and contemplative prayer.
34:56But at the end of the day, it's NAR connections, right?
34:59So it's, and what they do, they lend credibility to these people.
35:06And people were asking me, why are they on the website?
35:08Then the only thing that I had was pictures, connections, and a short blurb of a bio where I can
35:15click.
35:15Like, but at some point I was like, okay, I think people are asking, are you part of the NAR?
35:20And I'm like, no, I'm against it.
35:21Let's read my, read my front page, right?
35:25And so now I was like, okay, I'm done with the questions every time again.
35:32And so let me make, for every profile, I now have a full outline why they are on the page.
35:38And so that people can understand like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
35:43Because otherwise people are like, you know, giving me, flag me for like, yeah, you put people on there that
35:51are not NAR.
35:52And there are people, which is funny enough, there are people that have repented.
36:00And it's funny, Dawn Hill, you know her, right?
36:03She reached out through, I think it was fighting for the faith.
36:07And she was reaching out like, hey, what do you do with repented prophets?
36:13Well, I mean, if they're truly repented, I'll take them off of the website.
36:17I'm like, I'm on your website and I'm repented.
36:21It's like, of course I'd take you off of the website, right?
36:24So it's not an indictment or whatever.
36:27It's to show, really to show people how deep that rabbit hole goes.
36:32I have the same problem because I'm doing what you're doing historically.
36:36I'm going back through all of these connections.
36:38And the connections for me, they're just simply that.
36:41I actually don't have anything against, for or against many of the people.
36:44Now, if I was looking at it doctrinally, yes, I would.
36:46But I've learned that historically, some people are good people that just got caught up in a bad movement.
36:52And so I look at it much differently than a lot of people.
36:55One of the things that struck me as kind of funny in your book, you were talking about how, and
37:02I've come to the same opinion.
37:03So we share this opinion.
37:04You were talking about how C. Peter Wagner was kind of caught off guard or surprised.
37:10I can't remember your verbiage.
37:11But whenever he came across Bill Hammond, because he was saying, this is the first time that I realized that
37:17there exists an apostolic and prophetic network.
37:21Interestingly, the podcast that I mentioned that will be coming out after this where I'm looking at fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism
37:28was saying the same thing.
37:29We're a prophetic movement.
37:30So prophetic movement existed even before latter rain, but the fact that C. Peter Wagner was unfamiliar with the latter
37:37rain and he was in Fuller Theological Seminary, what was he doing there?
37:42There's no way he did not know this.
37:43In my opinion, there's just no way.
37:45But the surprise, I've read through some of his statements in the interviews, and he says, this is a new
37:51thing.
37:52We're now starting to see apostles and prophets and all of this.
37:55And I'm wondering, did he really not know, or was he just trying to put a special marketing on this
38:02thing that he was trying to promote?
38:04It's a good question.
38:05Of course, we can't ask him anymore.
38:08So, yeah, that's a good question.
38:10On that level, I think you should know.
38:17I mean, if you're a professor at Fuller Seminary and you've been on the opposing side, I mean, he was
38:24on the opposing side.
38:26He was even fighting against in the past, right?
38:29So, you cannot tell me that he didn't know.
38:34But for all it's worth, I just assumed that he was honest, but they're never honest.
38:43The whole movement is not honest with their prophecies and their things, right?
38:48So, yeah, it's a hard call.
38:52I don't know.
38:53I can't judge it, but, yeah, we all know that at some point, yeah, you should know.
39:04The same thing like that, you know, Bill Johnson and Cheyenne, they know what they're doing.
39:10They're not ignorant.
39:12I think you had Pia on a couple of months ago, who was close to Cheyenne, right?
39:20I mean, if you look at what happened there, I mean, and that's happening everywhere now.
39:28Things are coming to the surface, you know, the scandals are coming up.
39:32But then the next line comes in, right?
39:34So, you're not going to stop that whole thing, it seems like, because for me, the website, right?
39:42So, I'm putting in all these people, and every time I put one person in there, 10 others will pop
39:50up.
39:50It's like mushrooms, like, popping up everywhere.
39:54I mean, I can't keep up.
39:56And I have, I think I have like 200 profiles maybe done, like, that have, you know, the profiles like
40:03Bill Johnson, like Cheyenne, C. Peter Wagner.
40:06And all the bigwigs have their profile.
40:11I made sure that I did some organizations, such as Empower 21, to show the blur, etc.
40:19And, but so many people are asked, you know, coming to me like, hey, this person needs to be on
40:24the website.
40:25Okay, I put them on the website.
40:26But I don't have a personal page yet for everyone, because it's too much, and I'm doing it by myself,
40:35right?
40:35So, and I have other things to do as well.
40:39But, but yeah, it's, that's how fast the whole movement grows.
40:44It's like a religious whack-a-mole.
40:46And I, I actually stopped looking at it as it's a religious thing.
40:51I actually don't look at it like that anymore.
40:52You can, from its roots, you can see that there were streams of politics, there were streams of religion, there
40:59were streams of ideologies, different movements.
41:02And they were under the shelter, or under the umbrella of religion.
41:06But what happened over time is, once it joined with the entertainment side and the industry side, those two things
41:13changed it.
41:14And we talked about the architecture, the industry, all of that.
41:17But, well, go back to, it's funded by one of the nephews of the Kardashian family.
41:23You really don't have to say much more than this.
41:26But once it's sided with the entertainment side, they become actors in a big play.
41:32So, as the actor goes out on stage, the actor can say, I had a prophecy, and God spoke to
41:38me with this thing that I read in the newspaper in my hotel last night.
41:42You can literally do this, and they don't have a guilty conscience because they're trying to portray themselves as an
41:49actor.
41:49The interesting part is, because I've seen the other side of it, as this type of actor, when you watch
41:57a person change for the better, you feel like your acting is doing good.
42:01So, you're doing an act that serves a good purpose.
42:04The problem is, with this act comes theology.
42:08They're bringing in the theology with the stage act, and they're unaware of the dangers of the false prophecy.
42:14Not only is it a danger to them, and I'm not even talking about the spiritual side, there are people
42:20who get caught up in all of this, and it just destroys their minds.
42:23So, the people in the audience, actually, there's a danger for it.
42:26But, once I started looking at it like, this is business, this is big business, this is entertainment, and it's
42:33sitting on top of an architecture to fund that entertainment, now it starts to make sense.
42:39It's the only thing that makes sense of all of this.
42:41Yeah, and also, just as an example, a whole side thing, I don't know if you're familiar with the CNP,
42:51the Council for National Policy, basically the right wing of, you know, in the politics.
42:59So, all the politicians are there, it's from Mormons to Catholics to Christians and people like Lanswell, I think, if
43:07I'm not mistaken, it's on there.
43:12But it started, that was started by the guy, so that's the interconnectedness again.
43:20So, Paula White probably is part of it, who has CBN, what was the guy's name, Pat Robertson.
43:30Pat Robertson was the head of one time, but the guy that started it was the guy that…
43:38Tim LaHaye.
43:39Tim LaHaye, yes.
43:41So, Tim LaHaye was the first president of the CNP, the Council for National Policy.
43:48Now, he was funded by the Moonies.
43:53Really?
43:54Yeah.
43:54So, he was embracing Moon, together with the guy from Liberty, the father, basically.
44:05Now, I'm blanking on his name, but it doesn't matter.
44:08It's about the whole council, right?
44:11So, you have the Christian nationalism, and there are NAR people in there, high up, funding politics, right?
44:20So, the whole right-wing Christian nationalism is embedded with the NAR, and there you have Paula White, who also
44:28has been an ambassador for the Moonies.
44:36And, I mean, if you know what the Moonies are, it's a cult, for sure.
44:42Mother Moon and Father Moon, the spiritual father and mother of the world, and they're the Jesus and the Holy
44:49Spirit or so.
44:50It's wicked.
44:52So, you have Paula White, who is a proponent of the NAR, proponent of the Seven Mountain Mandate, and then
45:01also saying that Mother Moon, she respects her and honors her.
45:07And, like, okay, all these different religions and cults, that at all, just can be kumbaya.
45:18That's very interesting to me.
45:19And to the entertainment aspect, if you have one actor in one show, and there's another actor in a competing
45:25show or a show that's completely different,
45:27they will often support each other so that each viewer can get their, each show can get their views up.
45:33It's all about the entertainment.
45:34I came across the Paula White, Mooney's Connection, whenever I was writing my most recent book, Christian Identity to the
45:41NAR.
45:42And I was just, I was a little shocked, not because of Paula White and her history or who she
45:47is in NAR,
45:48but because she's directly connected to the President of the United States.
45:52This is a big deal for me.
45:54This is a huge deal.
45:56I can say it like the guy who's President.
45:58This is huge, huge.
46:00And I'm not saying it in a good way like he does.
46:02This is awful, because when you are allowing cults to have that close of proximity to government,
46:10knowing that many of these cults operate at a government level.
46:14Mooney's, if I remember correctly, it was the, was it the Washington Post?
46:19They created a newspaper just so they could sway the public opinion about themselves.
46:25Interestingly, even reporting negatively about themselves to gain people's confidence in it.
46:32This is a big deal.
46:33This is, this is wide deception.
46:35And this is just one cult among, you can't even count the number of cults that are comprising New Apostolic
46:42Reformation.
46:42So you've got this and they have that close level of connection to the President.
46:46This is a big, big deal.
46:48Yeah, and even on, if you look at some of the Nar Apostles, right, some of them are very, very
46:56right wing,
46:57but you have people on the left wing too, and people don't see that.
47:01But I've been, in my research, I came across people that were critical of the right wing,
47:07and they are more left-leaning.
47:09And I'm like, okay, so how does that, how does that work?
47:14But you have to conquer both mountains, or you have to conquer the entire mountain.
47:18So, so they are on both sides.
47:21And then you get the Hegelian principle.
47:25So basically, if you want to go this direction, so how do I say it, you pull on both sides,
47:34basically, right?
47:34So, so, or action, reaction, and then, and then solution.
47:40And that's, that's kind of the correct way to say it.
47:43And that's what they're, what they're, what they're aiming for.
47:45So it's also kind of a, they're playing with their minds, because they, they, they're from the opposing side.
47:54And you can see that in the same thing with, with, with doctrine even, right?
47:58That they can, can play against one another.
48:00But if you're looking on, in the, in the, in the back rooms, they're just laughing one another.
48:06And like, I mean, for instance, Driscoll, Driscoll, he's, he's mentored, he was, he was mentored by, by Robert Morris.
48:18And also, I've seen him at a gathering of iCal with Joseph Matera.
48:24I mean, and I thought, I thought it was on, on a reformed side, right?
48:30In, in, in the past.
48:32And then it went all the way to, to the, to the charismatic side.
48:36Um, I mean, it doesn't matter.
48:39It doesn't matter.
48:40I was looking into the Fellowship Foundation and looking at the connections there, because there's some weird, difficult things to
48:48untangle with that.
48:50You have the National Prayer Breakfast, but it's followed up by the Full Gospel Businessmen's Breakfast.
48:54And these two, they almost become one in the same.
48:58They're not, but they almost become one in the same.
49:00And I've got photographs of William Branham at one of these breakfasts with Richard Nixon.
49:05Well, if you follow that trail of research, you find that it, it really doesn't matter which side of the
49:10aisle the president's is on.
49:12They're going to go after, I've got photographs, is it a photograph?
49:15I've got documents where Hillary Clinton's getting involved in all of this stuff.
49:19And you would think, well, she's not even that religious.
49:21What's she doing?
49:22But it's all connected.
49:24And that's why I think you called it NAR Connections.
49:27So, um, if you could tell everybody where they can go to get your book, tell them about your website,
49:33uh, where they can go to find it.
49:34Uh, so, so the book is coming out, uh, the 16th of October.
49:38So it's, it's, uh, I have some people, uh, read it and I'm, I'm working on some footnotes, uh, uh,
49:45on the website.
49:46So not in the book to keep it readable so that people go, can go to the website and see
49:51all the, all the, um, the proof material.
49:54Um, but at the end of the day, uh, through the website, NAR connections.com, um, that's where people can
50:02research.
50:02Uh, they can look up names.
50:04If their names are not on there, uh, shoot me an email from there and I'll, and I'll pop them
50:08on there.
50:09Uh, please also, uh, you know, give me their social media and their websites that I can research that I'm
50:17not just popping people on, on the website just because, uh, you send them over, but that I can, can.
50:23Do my research.
50:25Um, and then, uh, yeah, the book, uh, 16th of October, it comes out, uh, and that will be NAR
50:32connections or, um, Amazon, uh, or divine, the final convergence.
50:38And what I've done with the final convergence, that is basically.com is birth out of, uh, uh, you know,
50:46because, and that's the thing, there are more books that I have.
50:51Uh, one is, uh, what is truth.
50:54And that, that came basically out of like, there's so much sinking sand in the NAR, the theology, uh, anything
51:02goes.
51:03So, okay, what is truth then?
51:05Right.
51:06Uh, it can be them very relative, uh, if you look at it, but the anchor is scripture.
51:13We found everything in scripture.
51:15Sola scriptura, uh, the Bible, that's where we find truth.
51:18So that's, that's one thing.
51:20And then I, I wrote the next book about, uh, uh, simplicity of the gospel.
51:25Uh, where, where do we find, uh, where do we find truth and what do we find then?
51:29That's the gospel.
51:30And we make it so complicated.
51:32So I tried to make it simple again.
51:34Um, um, and then why I came out of, you know, why I believe the Bible, et cetera.
51:40So, uh, also to give people something to read on, on, uh, to, to, to build, you know, build their
51:47faith again.
51:48Because yes, I can expose on NAR connections, uh, all day long.
51:53Uh, but I also want something to help people, uh, to, to, you know, to, to give them something, uh,
52:00to hold on to, which is, at the end of the day, scripture, the Bible.
52:05And let's say that somebody reads your book, comes across your website, and suddenly they realize, oh my gosh, I'm
52:13in one of these churches.
52:14What advice would you give them?
52:15Depends on how teachable, uh, or how, how approachable the pastor is.
52:23Um, because you can get, you know, it depends on what kind of church you're in.
52:27If they're only singing Bethel and Hillsong at your church, and if there's Bible believing, uh, and if the, the,
52:35the pastor is, uh, approachable, then, then sure, go ahead and talk to the pastor.
52:40But if it's full-blown NAR and, uh, uh, authoritative, then, I mean, I, I would leave.
52:49Find a Bible-believing church, uh, at the end of the day.
52:53Um, yeah, you have to, you have to rescue yourself first before you can rescue somebody else.
52:58Um, and sure, uh, you know, at the end of the, at the end of the day, um, and that's
53:07what, what, what we did as well.
53:08We just, we just left because the church was too big even to, to go to the pastor.
53:13And they would even not even respond to, to, you know, to, uh, people that are not in leadership at
53:19all.
53:19And, uh, the question is, and I, I found out later how, you know, how they operate, uh, on the
53:26top.
53:26And most, in most of those churches, it's, it's, uh, uh, you know, the higher ups in that, in that
53:34case is very abusive, unfortunately.
53:37So, yeah, get out.
53:38Well, it's very good advice.
53:39Thank you so much for doing this.
53:41You're welcome.
53:41And thanks for having me.
53:43Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
53:46You can find us at william-branham.org and narconnections.com.
53:51For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
53:57the NAR.
53:57And for more about NAR and its connections, you can read NAR Connections.

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