- 2 hours ago
John and Chino examine the "manifestation of the sons of God" teaching built around Romans 8 and trace how the idea developed through Latter Rain, William Branham, Hobart Freeman, George Warnock, and later charismatic movements. They compare the language of Romans 8 with interpretations that turned the passage into an expectation of a special end-times ministry of matured sons.
They also discuss the distinction some teachers made between "children" and "sons" of God, the use of Greek terminology, divine healing teachings, the Feast of Tabernacles interpretation, and the way successive layers of doctrine were connected with authority, hierarchy, and dominion. The discussion emphasizes reading biblical passages in context and recognizing when later interpretations add concepts not stated in the text.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
07:46 What Romans 8 Really Means by Manifestation
13:04 Loaded Language and Biblical Interpretation
18:43 Hobart Freeman's Promise of Matured Sons
24:39 Divine Healing and the Trial of Faith
30:06 From Mature Sons to Dominion Theology
35:33 Children of God Versus Sons of God
40:58 Jim Jones, Religious Hierarchy, and Authority
47:45 Reexamining Latter Rain Theology
53:15 Extreme Manifested Sons and the Feast of Tabernacles
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also discuss the distinction some teachers made between "children" and "sons" of God, the use of Greek terminology, divine healing teachings, the Feast of Tabernacles interpretation, and the way successive layers of doctrine were connected with authority, hierarchy, and dominion. The discussion emphasizes reading biblical passages in context and recognizing when later interpretations add concepts not stated in the text.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
07:46 What Romans 8 Really Means by Manifestation
13:04 Loaded Language and Biblical Interpretation
18:43 Hobart Freeman's Promise of Matured Sons
24:39 Divine Healing and the Trial of Faith
30:06 From Mature Sons to Dominion Theology
35:33 Children of God Versus Sons of God
40:58 Jim Jones, Religious Hierarchy, and Authority
47:45 Reexamining Latter Rain Theology
53:15 Extreme Manifested Sons and the Feast of Tabernacles
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,
00:00:46pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube
00:00:50channel.
00:00:51Cheno, it's good to be back, and last time I said that the podcast was probably going
00:00:56to be one of the most powerful ones we did, and I think this one, which follows on its
00:01:01heels, is probably going to be one of the most relevant ones that we have done, because
00:01:06we're going to be talking about the expectation of the manifested sons of God.
00:01:11Now, back in latter rain in the 1940s, whenever all of this was really starting to develop,
00:01:17especially through the early 1950s, this was an anticipation of the developing Pentecostal
00:01:26charismatic movement, this predated charismania.
00:01:30However, it was resurrected by Paul Cain and others in IHOP KC Kansas City Fellowship, and
00:01:37it became the theme of many of the New Apostolic Reformation leaders.
00:01:41And the interesting part of all of this, I grew up with the same understanding that Branham
00:01:47taught in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, that this was an anticipation for us, and that we were
00:01:53expecting this thing would happen in our generation, is how he would say it.
00:01:57Well, what I learned was the in-our-generation keeps shifting forward and forward and forward,
00:02:04but with each shift, it becomes more destructive.
00:02:07So, it's like you have a foundational doctrine that's not quite biblical, but you can maybe
00:02:13with a sledgehammer beat it in there, and then as it resurrects itself, it resurrects
00:02:18itself in the purest, more evil form possible, and it continues to happen again and again and
00:02:24again.
00:02:25So, this is very relevant, and I'm a little excited to get into this one as well.
00:02:29Well, it's the same, I guess, John, as when Jesus did not return in 1988.
00:02:35So, the 88 reasons for him to return in 1988, you just got to rewrite all of that, and that's
00:02:42a problem with this date setting and expecting all of these things to happen in our lifetime.
00:02:48We've got a lot of different strands to try to pull together concerning this manifestation
00:02:54of the sons of God, and I know most people probably listen to the podcast rather than actually
00:03:01watch them, so I thought I would just read a couple of these verses in Romans chapter 8.
00:03:09This is the basis, this is the text that the manifestation of the sons of God teaching
00:03:16is based on, and I think maybe most people are somewhat familiar with it, but here's what
00:03:22Paul said in Romans 8, verses 18, he said, I reckon that the sufferings of this present time
00:03:29are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
00:03:35You know, when you read a passage like that, people who are looking for glory get pretty excited
00:03:41because they have an anticipation of something to happen.
00:03:44For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
00:03:51And there is the actual phrase that this movement and this doctrine was based upon.
00:03:59And people, if they care, can go on and read the next couple of verses there.
00:04:05And I have said before in talking about Dr. Freeman that this very word, this big five-syllable
00:04:16word, manifestation, was a big word in Freeman's whole teaching ministry.
00:04:23And we've seen it on two earlier occasions.
00:04:26One, in his teaching on the Trinity, which I think Dr. Freeman was in some degree,
00:04:35of error on, and we did, I think, two podcasts on that, John, a long time ago.
00:04:41And his error, I believe, sprang from the influence he had with William Branham's teaching.
00:04:48Branham sometimes was Trinitarian and sometimes oneness, depending on his audience.
00:04:55Dr. Freeman had been trained in the seminary to be an Orthodox Trinitarian believer,
00:05:02which would say something like this, that God is one in essence, but three in person.
00:05:09And Hobart hated that after he became charismatic.
00:05:13He would never say that.
00:05:15He hated the word person.
00:05:17He said, God is, we are people.
00:05:19God is not a person.
00:05:21And his infamous definition for the Trinity was this, that God is one divine spirit who eternally
00:05:29manifests.
00:05:30There's that word manifestation, who eternally manifests himself as Father, Son, and Holy
00:05:36Spirit.
00:05:36I think he was really confused on quantitative, qualitative concepts within the Trinity.
00:05:44And to be honest, we have to face the fact there's no human being alive that fully understands
00:05:51comprehends or comprehends the doctrine of the Trinity, that God can be one in one or more
00:05:57senses and three in one or more senses.
00:06:00I think he's one in one sense and he's three in another.
00:06:03And I think Hobart's view bordered on some type of a minor form of modalism.
00:06:12But anyway, he loved that word manifestation.
00:06:14And the other place where we've seen manifestation is in all of their praying and claiming healing.
00:06:21They claim their healing, but then they're waiting for their manifestation.
00:06:25No one ever got healed when they asked to be healed, as per the New Testament, when Jesus
00:06:32or the apostles prayed for people, they didn't leave and say, well, now I've got to go home
00:06:38and confess it and act and endure and wait for my manifestation.
00:06:42That is just crazy, charismatic nonsense.
00:06:45None of that is in the New Testament.
00:06:47But it was what was taught by Kenneth Hagin that you believe when you believe you receive, when
00:06:54you pray, and then the manifestation is in God's timing.
00:06:58That was Hobart Freeman's teaching.
00:07:00That is Andrew Womack's teaching today.
00:07:04It has never left the charismatic movement and probably never will.
00:07:08Where contrary to that in the New Testament, when people were prayed for to be healed, they
00:07:12were simply healed.
00:07:13No one went away waiting for their manifestation.
00:07:15So those were two different areas where Hobart loved this big $5, five-syllable word manifestation.
00:07:24And the third one, and maybe the most important one, is what we're talking about now, because
00:07:30that word actually does appear in the Bible, at least in the King James translation of the
00:07:38Bible, we are waiting, or the creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.
00:07:45What's interesting about that word, John, is if anyone cares to just look it up in their Greek
00:07:51New Testament, it's just the common word, apocalypsis, which is the same word that has been given to
00:08:00the last book of the New Testament, the book of Revelation.
00:08:03It means revelation.
00:08:05You could translate it manifestation, but elsewhere in the New Testament, it's translated revelation,
00:08:11that the creation is waiting for the revelation of the sons of God.
00:08:18So I think what Romans 8 is teaching is an experience rather than a ministry.
00:08:28And what Hobart and the manifested sons of God people were teaching is that we are waiting
00:08:34for this ministry to be unfolded, that the manifested, matured sons of God will get to go out and do
00:08:43and
00:08:44perform. Where I think that most people in reading Romans 8 probably see this as an experience happening
00:08:54within the context of the second coming of Christ, where it talks about the whole creation has been
00:09:00plunged into its own misery. And if we go back prior to the fall of Adam and Eve, you know,
00:09:07we see a bountiful lush garden free from decay and death. And ever since the sin of the original
00:09:16couple, all the world has known the world, its animals, its vegetation, and us as people who live
00:09:23in the world, all the world has known is decay and, and corruption and eventually death. And what
00:09:30happens at the second advent is that Jesus overcomes death. And the way I think that probably most
00:09:38normal interpreters would understand Romans chapter 8 is that, you know, we're, as we're living in the
00:09:48world today, John, you and I, no one can tell the difference by looking at you and I and Adolf
00:09:56Hitler.
00:09:56If we were standing in line together at the supermarket, you could not look at us and tell
00:10:02the difference. One of us is a Christian and one of us is not. And that's just the way the
00:10:07world is.
00:10:08It's the way the world has been for a long time. The wheat and the tares are growing together and
00:10:16they're pretty much indistinguishable. But at the end of time, at the second advent, when Jesus returns,
00:10:24returns, then as John said in first John three, two, I quoted that verse last time. Now we're the
00:10:31sons of God, but it doesn't yet appear what we shall be. But we know that when he shall appear,
00:10:37we will be like him for we will see him as he is. I think this is talking about when
00:10:44Christ returns,
00:10:45that the people of God will be seen to be the people of God and will be known to be
00:10:52the people
00:10:53of God. But this is not at all the way in which Hobart interpreted it. Hobart took this passage,
00:11:00not as an experience, but as a ministry that the whole creation out there is waiting for us
00:11:08to grow up, become the matured sons of God so that we can be the ones to go out there
00:11:16and set them free.
00:11:17Chino, you and I have had many conversations and we can understand each other pretty well. We both
00:11:22speak the same language. We have the same humor, oddly enough, in different ways, of course. But
00:11:28we have a common way to talk to each other that we really get each other. My wife, when I
00:11:34married my
00:11:35wife and I visited my in-laws for the first time, and I'm telling on myself just a little bit,
00:11:40I'll embarrass myself because it makes sense for this example. They love big words. Love them. I
00:11:47don't understand how they find them. I don't understand where they get them. But they'll use
00:11:51a word in a sentence that I may have heard one time in my life, if that. And I'm listening
00:11:57to it,
00:11:57and my mind just stops on that one word. And I hear nothing they say after because I'm like,
00:12:01what in the world? I've never heard that word before. Fast forward to now we've been married,
00:12:07I guess, 30 years now. She'll kick me because I can't tell you the exact year. We still have
00:12:15conversations where she'll talk to me and she'll throw in one of those words. And I'm like,
00:12:18Jennifer, nobody uses that word. Well, we understand each other in different ways than
00:12:25language. And what I'm wanting to drive at is this. So you and I have a conversation and we can
00:12:31understand each other. People who have recently escaped, they even struggle further. And I can
00:12:37say this truly because in what you just said and where my mind went because of the loaded language,
00:12:43I missed it until I stopped and thought about it. So you're correct. The word manifestation
00:12:49could also mean revelation. But to a person who's been overloading that word revelation into another
00:12:56category altogether, you still miss it because your mind went somewhere that the word actually isn't
00:13:02saying. So I'm going to put on my preacher hat and pretend I'm a preacher. I'm not. But here's the
00:13:09point I want to make. And I use this in another podcast that's kind of funny. I started studying the
00:13:15Greek language as I was reading the Bible over and over, washing all of this out of my head, not
00:13:19to
00:13:20become a Greek scholar, but I would use the interlinear Bible and line up the words and meanings and try
00:13:25to
00:13:25figure out, okay, what's it actually saying? And I learned that the Greek language is more complex than the
00:13:31English language. There are words like love that have so many different meanings, so many in the
00:13:37Greek. And where we might say in our language, we might say, I love my wife. Well, in Greek, they
00:13:45had
00:13:45specific words that go with it that make it, it's a romantic love. But I could also in the English
00:13:51language say, I love Doritos, which doesn't mean the same thing at all. But in English, it's so dumbed down
00:13:57and simplified. In Greek, you have to understand the full context of what love is. Well, the point
00:14:02I'm trying to make is this. When I began that exercise, I'm reading interlinear and understanding
00:14:07that you can't love Doritos in the same way that you love your wife. You have to understand how the
00:14:12language fits together. I started reading the Bible for simpler terms, like I would talk to you,
00:14:20not like my wife would talk to me. And to put my preacher hat on, Paul is standing before a
00:14:26group of
00:14:26people in a world where Christianity has not grown into what it is today. It's just a small
00:14:31group. And he says, you're children of God. I'm assuming he's talking to men. You're sons
00:14:37of God. In our world, that means nothing. That's not been overloaded in our language. You are just
00:14:43children of God. And he says, right now, we're nothing. And he's looking at a sickly crowd.
00:14:49They're weak. They're poor. Right now, you're nothing. But one day, people of the world are going
00:14:54to know what Christianity is. And I'm using today's language for the same exact thing that
00:15:00is in that passage. One day, you're going to know what Christianity is. And Jesus will return
00:15:05and he will come get us. And you can go into the passage. You can read everything that I just
00:15:10said
00:15:10using the interlinear. Now, I'm not saying that I'm the best at translating anything like this.
00:15:15But what I'm trying to say is people like Hobart, like Branham, like his predecessors,
00:15:21all of these people tried to prey on the innocent who didn't understand the words that were used.
00:15:29It would be in the same scenario where if I went to my in-laws and they tried to manipulate
00:15:33my head
00:15:34because they're using these words I don't know, they didn't. They were actually teaching me as I
00:15:39was going. But if they use that to their advantage over me to control and manipulate me, that's purely
00:15:45evil. And I would probably never go visit my in-laws again. But think of this. You go let a
00:15:50preacher do
00:15:50it. And then you go back next Sunday because you're allowing him to do this. And today's world,
00:15:57we have tools online. Like you can go to Bible Hub, Bible Gateway. There's a few different ones.
00:16:02And you can see what the words actually mean. And I highly recommend if somebody's coming up with this
00:16:07weird doctrine that is outside of mainstream, you really need to check and see, is it something
00:16:13that's actually from the Bible or did it come from somebody's opinion?
00:16:16I think that's very fair what you just said, John, even with your preacher's hat on, a
00:16:22non-preacher wearing a preacher's hat. I think that is very fair. And that is, I think if you
00:16:28were just reading through your New Testament, you know, again, without the background of the
00:16:33loaded language, you'd end up probably with maybe not an exact, precise understanding of
00:16:42Romans 8. But you certainly wouldn't end up where Branham and Hobart did. And as I said last time,
00:16:49last week, I had never heard of this doctrine of the manifestation of the sons of God. And as I
00:16:54said
00:16:54last week also, I'm sure I had read my whole Bible from cover to cover at least once, probably twice
00:17:01by
00:17:02the time I heard Hobart. And I never got that. I never got his view. And if people are wondering,
00:17:09well, what was his view? As I said, his view is that what's being talked about in Romans 8 is
00:17:13this
00:17:14ministry that we're all waiting on. We've got to mature and grow up, and then we're going to get to
00:17:20be part of the manifestation of the sons of God. It's something God's waiting on us to mature so that
00:17:27he can show the world how mature we are. And that is not what the passage, you know, is saying
00:17:33at all.
00:17:34It's an experience that we're going to have as well as the rest of creation. It seems like the
00:17:40second advent and our revelation, if you want to use that word, which is the Greek word apocalypsis,
00:17:47or our manifestation happens at the second advent, and then will lead to other things that Jesus will
00:17:56do on the earth. But after hearing what Hobart taught about it, it's not that we are so much going
00:18:07to be manifested, but it's that, and then God is going to deliver the creation, but that we in our
00:18:16manifestation will be the ones who go and deliver the groaning creation. And of course, anyone, any
00:18:26objective person would have to admit, the text does not say that. It says we're going to be
00:18:31manifested. It says the groaning creation is going to be delivered, but it does not say that we're the
00:18:38ones who will deliver the creation. And that is clearly and obviously beyond our capacity. That is
00:18:45something that God will do himself. But Hobart, because the phrase is there, John, he would say,
00:18:51now, don't be afraid of Romans 8. Don't be afraid of Romans 8. It's in the Bible. Don't be afraid
00:18:56of
00:18:57the doctrine of the manifestation of the sons of God. It's in the Bible. And I would say, yeah,
00:19:02the doctrine of the manifestation of the sons of God is in the Bible, but not your doctrine.
00:19:07Your take on it is not what is said there. And I just think he sold them a bill of
00:19:15goods. It was
00:19:16the rabbit on the racetrack running in front of those greyhound dogs. And it was the doctrine
00:19:23that Dr. Freeman used to encourage everyone. Now is the time of preparation. Now is the time to
00:19:35discipline yourself in prayer and in Bible study and in overcoming your trials. All of his teaching
00:19:43about faith and overcoming and healing and everything, all of his teaching was geared toward
00:19:53the manifestation of the sons of God. It wasn't, he would always say, none of this is an end in
00:20:00itself.
00:20:00Faith is not an end in itself. Deliverance is not an end in itself. Prosperity is not all there is.
00:20:07We are doing this in preparation for the restoration of all things and the manifestation of
00:20:15our sonship. And so a lot of, that's why I think a lot of his teaching on faith and healing
00:20:24would work out in such a way that nothing ever really happened. You're always waiting on something
00:20:31to happen. And this waiting period is the trial of your faith. And you know, there are plenty of
00:20:37passages in the Bible, like in James one and in first Peter one, that talk about the trial of your
00:20:43faith. He didn't see the trial of your faith as maybe some type of persecution, like the early church
00:20:50experienced in Acts. The trial of your faith is when you went up and asked for prayer for healing
00:20:57and you didn't feel any better when you got back home and you didn't feel any better next week.
00:21:02And that is the trial of your faith. Everything, everything, John, at Faith Assembly was a trial.
00:21:08Everything was a trial. If the washing machine broke down, that's a trial. If you didn't have gas for
00:21:13your car, that's a trial. If your wife said a cross word to you that morning before you left for
00:21:19work,
00:21:19that's a trial. Nothing was reality and nothing was, nothing came about, nothing is your own
00:21:27fault because you did something foolish or dumb. That might be why you're out of gas. You did not
00:21:32fill up the night before when you passed the gas station. Every single experience in the life of
00:21:39everybody at Faith Assembly was a trial. Nothing was reality. Nobody was sick. You couldn't say you
00:21:48were sick because that would be a negative confession because you had prayed to be healed. So if you prayed
00:21:54to be healed, Mark 11, 24, and you received your healing when you prayed, then you're not sick. But
00:22:00what are you? I'm experiencing a trial of my faith. And, and they lived in a world of, you know,
00:22:08complete
00:22:10lack of reality. Dr. Freeman would talk about if you people can't deliver yourself from a simple headache,
00:22:19then how can you deliver this groaning creation? He would use that as a point of reference all the
00:22:27time. If you can't deliver yourself from a simple headache. So he saw a headache as being something
00:22:34directly from Satan. It is a sickness, a pain, an illness, a disease. And according to Isaiah 53,
00:22:42we had been delivered from that. You know, the more I listened to him and I was, I was young,
00:22:50but I wasn't too young not to continue to listen and then think, well, now wait a minute.
00:22:57You're saying even a headache. I mean, I might could understand back then that cancer is somehow from the
00:23:04devil and Jesus bore all of our cancer on the cross. I could probably back then accept that. But when
00:23:11it
00:23:11got down to a headache, I had headaches, um, because I was a normal human being. And sometimes just in
00:23:19college, you read with dim light for too long and the strain on your eyes gives you what gives you
00:23:25a
00:23:26headache. I don't think that came from Satan. And I don't think that was something Jesus bore on the
00:23:31cross. He went to the cross and died so that because I studied too long and too late at night
00:23:38in dim light
00:23:39conditions in college to take an exam. And I have a headache as a result from that. That is the
00:23:47part
00:23:47of the message of the cross. You know, that to me just went way beyond the bounds of reality. I
00:23:54thought
00:23:54there's probably a lot of things. A lot of us are experiencing because of genetics, because of poor
00:24:01diet, because of not enough light, because of not enough sleep, because of dehydration, because of
00:24:10stress. I thought that Dr. Freeman was so incredibly shallow on his views on healing and faith. I didn't
00:24:22think he had any worked out theology of divine healing like he tried to have on other things. I don't
00:24:31think
00:24:31he succeeded on other things, but I don't even think he tried, John, on divine healing. He didn't have it
00:24:37worked
00:24:38out at all. And I think we've talked about this before when it comes to healing. And, you know, if
00:24:44you can't
00:24:45deliver yourself from a simple headache, then there's no way you can be a mature son of God. I think
00:24:51we talked
00:24:51about this earlier that his whole approach to Isaiah 53 with both sickness and sin in the atonement,
00:25:05there was something that was completely not right and out of balance with that. And the way I just
00:25:13processed it logically early on was like this. I definitely believe that the punishment for our sin
00:25:20was was born by Jesus on the cross. But sin is something that we do. Sin is some or that
00:25:28we
00:25:29don't do something that we're commanded to do that we don't or something we are forbidden to do. And we
00:25:35do. We commit sin in thought and act. Indeed, that's what we do. We are sinners by nature. And when
00:25:43we are
00:25:43born again, Christ has born our sin for us. But sickness is something entirely different. Sickness
00:25:52and illness and disease and pain, those aren't things that we've done. Those are just things that
00:25:57came on us that happened to us, not necessarily through any fault of our own, where sin is definitely
00:26:04our own fault. Sickness wasn't. So my mind, and it was a young mind, but it began to process and
00:26:13ask
00:26:13questions along the line of then how can those equally be carried in the same way by the same
00:26:20Savior on the same cross? And so that all I have to do for sin is ask forgiveness. And then
00:26:27all I have
00:26:28to do for sickness is ask for healing. And then I took it a step further, John. How is it
00:26:36that when
00:26:37I go and ask for forgiveness, I know that I've been forgiven. I'm not waiting for the manifestation of
00:26:43the forgiveness of my sin. I know that it's been done. But when I pray for my healing, I have
00:26:50to wait
00:26:51for the manifestation of my healing. None of it squared in my mind. None of it made any sense. It
00:26:56just didn't
00:26:57even seem to be logical at the end of the day. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement
00:27:02started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
00:27:08charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and
00:27:14more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of
00:27:21the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
00:27:28John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:27:34You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:27:40If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute
00:27:46button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that
00:27:52you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for
00:27:57your support. One of the problems that came from this movement was that there were a lot of people who
00:28:05were inducted into the ministry simply by the laying on of hands and prophesying over them. And they had no
00:28:12theological training, but they wanted to be bigger than they actually were. And what happened was you
00:28:20had this strange mix. You had people who came in who really didn't know the Bible, who became teachers
00:28:25of the Bible, but you also had some legitimate teachers of the Bible who came in. Hobart would be
00:28:30one of the more legitimate in some cases. But during the 40s and 50s, as this thing was developing,
00:28:37you had that weird mix. Well, what happened, and this is my opinion, there's no way to go back and
00:28:42actually trace all of this down. But in my opinion, what happened is this. Some of the people did have
00:28:49basic understanding of Greek in their theological training, but they were explaining it to people
00:28:54who didn't understand the concept that I did with love. You can have different types of love in the
00:29:01text. So what they did was they took all of the different varying meanings of the word, and then they
00:29:08ran rampant with it. In other words, they saw a word, and they thought, well, that's a powerful
00:29:13word. It means all of these other things. And then they would go teach all of these other things,
00:29:17not understanding that you had to put it into the context of that scripture. And one of the words,
00:29:24I did some deep studies on this because I came out of this. One of the words, and I'll never
00:29:28pronounce
00:29:28it, so I had to get the spelling so I can spell it. H-U-I-O-S. It just
00:29:34simply means son or sons.
00:29:35That's where this came from. There's nothing in the text that says even that it is a really the
00:29:41mature aspect that they give it. It's just simply this is a son. You're a son of God. But it
00:29:48has
00:29:48gone so far in today's world that they have injected the theme of the manifest, but also
00:29:55maturity. They're injecting maturity into this. It's not just a son. It's a mature son because you
00:30:00can kind of take the Greek and go that way if you want to. So then you find all of
00:30:05these
00:30:05mature son doctrines. And that's kind of, I guess that would be the background to what came in and
00:30:11developed before Hobart came into the picture. So with the maturity, now you get, take it into
00:30:17today's world, it's a mature heir. So you've got the heir doctrine, H-E-I-R doctrines that come in.
00:30:23It's an heir. It's a governing. Now you've got the seven mountains mandates. You've got all of the
00:30:31things where we're to come in as mature sons of God, the manifested sons of God, and govern the
00:30:36people. But what they're doing is they're injecting and stacking doctrines on top of doctrines,
00:30:41not even going back to the root to try to even understand what was Paul actually saying in that
00:30:47passage. So for me, I wiped all of that out of my memory. I tried to go back to a
00:30:52blank slate and
00:30:52just say, okay, what was actually said and what have they added to it? And if you put it into
00:30:58a
00:30:58balance scale, the stuff they added is like, it's so weighty that you can't even make the Bible
00:31:05resemble what it actually said in the end. And you and I say this all the time, John,
00:31:10what people need to do more than anything is read their own Bible. Forget everything else.
00:31:18Forget the recorded messages of Branham and Freeman and simply go and read the Bible for
00:31:24themselves. You will learn so much. But in the process, I know you have spoken about this at
00:31:30length. When you first were out of the movement and you tried to read the Bible, you're still
00:31:36reading the Bible through the lens of the people that have taught you. And so when you see these words,
00:31:41words, they are, as you often say, loaded language. And they bring to your mind and to your whole
00:31:49psyche, you know, all of this stuff, these feelings and just the baggage that comes with that. But over
00:31:57time, you get cleansed from that just by reading the Bible and trying to, you know, I'd say just on
00:32:04Romans 8, just try to put out of your mind anybody's interpretation of Romans 8 and read it for
00:32:09yourself. And then go back and say, now, I don't think I got the manifestation of the sons of God
00:32:18that this is some end time ministry that we are going to be the ones if we can mature enough
00:32:24to
00:32:24go out and deliver this groaning creation. You wouldn't get that. I didn't get that when I read it
00:32:30after Hobart told me that, you know, you just have to continue to be taught false doctrine before it
00:32:36finally becomes a part of you because it's not in the passage there. And I'm so glad you brought up
00:32:43the topic of sons versus children. We have not talked about this with regard to Hobart, but as you
00:32:52can imagine, oh boy, was this a big part of his doctrine. The reason you have a difficult time
00:32:59pronouncing that word in Greek for son is because that word has what we call a rough breathing mark
00:33:10over it. You know, when I went to college in my undergraduate days, I was 18 years old. I was
00:33:16a
00:33:16freshman in college. You know, I didn't know much, but I knew that I had been called to the ministry.
00:33:24I didn't know how that would ever unfold. I didn't know how that would happen. Even though I was in
00:33:29a
00:33:29secular university, I decided I'll take every class I possibly can that hopefully, you know, one day in
00:33:37the future, I had no idea when that would be or how it would come about. These classes and what
00:33:43I've learned
00:33:43can help me. So I took classical Greek, you know, which you don't do at the University of Mississippi.
00:33:50There's no reason to be taking Greek when you're a freshman in college. But I took it then and also
00:33:56had it in seminary. So you have a rough breathing mark, which puts an H in front of a word.
00:34:00If you
00:34:00have a smooth breathing mark, then that H is silent. You don't pronounce that or you don't have
00:34:07any pronunciation there. That's a little bit on the Greek. But the business of children and sons,
00:34:13that was huge in Hobart's ministry. And again, it was something, John, I had to be taught.
00:34:20Reading the Bible didn't tell me that there is this huge chasm, this huge difference between being a
00:34:30child of God and being a son of God. I kind of assume they're probably the same thing. If you're
00:34:38a
00:34:38child of God, you're probably a son of God. But that is not the case with the matured sons of
00:34:46God,
00:34:47manifested sons of God teaching. So what Hobart taught, and there are two different Greek words
00:34:52for sure, one for children or child and one for son. What Hobart taught was that everyone is a child
00:35:01of God, but not every child of every Christian is a child of God, but not every child of God
00:35:09is a son
00:35:10of God. So children, he taught, was the inclusive term. All of God's people, all people who've been
00:35:19born again and saved and washed in the blood, all of those people are children of God, but not all
00:35:27children are sons of God. And so then here, here you come with this, um, with these levels of
00:35:34Christianity. If you are a John 3 16 person, you're just one of those lowly children of God. But if
00:35:43you're a Romans eight person, you are a son of God. And he had a teaching. I remember listening. Um,
00:35:53he had, he, and he did this often, but it was from Galatians four, where I think Paul is really,
00:35:59I won't try to get into that. Cause I'm doing all that from memory where Paul is really contrasting
00:36:04the old Testament Jewish system where they were more like slaves of God. And he said, and we are
00:36:11the sons of God. Hobart didn't contrast the Jewish way versus a Christian way. He contrasted
00:36:18the merely Christian way with the matured Christian way children versus sons. Um, and I think he took,
00:36:27I think he took every bit of this from Branham and from whoever was, you know, teaching this type of
00:36:34stuff prior to Branham or during Branham's time. And when I read the Bible and I, and I see there
00:36:42are
00:36:42passages that call us children of God and passages that call us sons of God. I think that probably
00:36:50what's happening there in the new Testament, and this is just what I think, why there are different
00:36:55words is that there, those are two different metaphors. They're still referring to the same
00:37:01group of people. If you're a child, you're a son. If you're a son, you're a child, but there are
00:37:05two
00:37:05different metaphors. One, when it talks about us as being the children of God, then it means that God
00:37:12has birthed us. And that's the new birth experience in, in, um, John chapter three, John's gospel,
00:37:20where Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, where prior to that, we are, as he said, in John eight 44,
00:37:26he told the Pharisees, um, you are of your father, the devil. That's who your father is. You have not
00:37:32been birthed by God. You are not children of God. So when children of God appears, you know,
00:37:38we're part of God's family. He is our father and he has birthed us. Other passages refer to us as
00:37:45sons of God, sons of God. And you say, well, what is that? I think that's also a metaphor
00:37:51because there was a right through which young boys would go at the age of 13 when they became legally
00:38:00adopted into this family. And so again, even though we're children of God, we also have many
00:38:10verses in the new Testament that speak of our adoption into God's family, because we don't
00:38:16naturally belong to his family. According to Paul in Ephesians chapter two, we are by nature,
00:38:23children of wrath. We're not naturally the children of God, but he has adopted us graciously into his
00:38:31family. So I don't think you can make some huge distinction between children of God and sons of
00:38:39God. I think they refer to the same group of people, but they are using different metaphors.
00:38:46And so it's coming at it from a different angle. But as you and I know, the matured sons of
00:38:53God,
00:38:54that became the big part of the manifestation of the sons of God. You had to, you couldn't just be
00:39:01a
00:39:01child and you really couldn't just be a son, to be honest. You had to mature as a son. And
00:39:08so what was
00:39:09going to happen at the end of time, but prior to the return of Christ is that this growing swelling
00:39:18body of the sons of God, that doesn't include all those regular Christians out there. These are the
00:39:25elite people. We are slowly maturing. We are maturing through our trials. We're also, as you know,
00:39:34John, maturing through the equipping of the five-fold ministry. They always brought Ephesians
00:39:40four into it. God gave those apostles and prophets, et cetera, so that we today here at the end of
00:39:48time,
00:39:48we could mature. So through our trials, through the giving of the five-fold ministry, through these
00:39:54various avenues, God is maturing, not every believer, just a small elite select group of people
00:40:03they would become the matured sons of God. They would therefore be manifested as God's sons,
00:40:10and their manifestation would occur as they deliver this groaning creation from its corruption and
00:40:17bondage. That is how you would put all of that together in a nutshell.
00:40:22What's funny is Hobart came from Baptist Seminary right here in this area, and the way that he taught
00:40:29the sonship is much like you would say about bourbon. All bourbon is whiskey, but not all whiskey is
00:40:35bourbon. But that's not at all what Paul is saying if you read this. And again, I'm not a Greek
00:40:41scholar.
00:40:41I'm just an average guy who's reading it, but the words aren't that hard. You really have to inject a
00:40:47lot
00:40:48of things to make it say what they're trying to say. But think about where that went. If you go
00:40:54to
00:40:56Jonestown.sdsu.edu, you can find all of my research that has been published on Jim Jones and People's
00:41:02Temple. When you think of the word cult, that's where everybody goes to People's Temple in Jonestown,
00:41:07Guyana. This was one of the most horrific events, and this is what actually branded cult as a destructive
00:41:13evil thing. Cult just simply means a cult following of people. Jones taught the hierarchy level sonship
00:41:21that you're talking about. I have some research published about this, but he's talking about the
00:41:25manifestation, and he says something to the effect that my manifestation is greater than your
00:41:31manifestation. So this became a hierarchy, but more than that, it actually, this would have been in
00:41:37the 70s that he's saying this, if I remember correctly. You have to go look it up and see if
00:41:42I'm
00:41:42right. But in around the late 70s, early, mid 70s, I think it was, they started to come up with
00:41:49a
00:41:49concept that this sonship, this manifested sons, was a credential for authority. You, if you were a
00:41:55manifested son, you had authority over the people who did not. So like Hobart said, there's children
00:42:01of God and there's sons of God. Well, you would have authority over those children of God. Well, then
00:42:06the leaders of you had to have a greater manifestation, so they would be leaders of the leaders of
00:42:12the people. And it's such a mess when you try to think that you cannot make the text say that,
00:42:17and look where it got Jones and his people. Jones was part of this movement that taught all of this.
00:42:22So now fast forward to today. You have a large number of people in the New Apostolic Reformation
00:42:29who are teaching the same thing, but like I said, it gets worse with each reinterpretation. Now they
00:42:35have added dominion on top of what I just said. You have authority over those people, and you're going to
00:42:41go take dominion over them. Once you add all of these pieces together, you literally are bringing
00:42:46people back into the days of the Holy Wars. You're wanting to go conquer. And that's not at all what
00:42:51Paul is saying in this passage, but that's where it developed and what it developed into.
00:42:55We probably see that in some current ministries like the ministry of Mark Driscoll, who was,
00:43:03I guess he was the pastor of the famous Mars Hill Church, and that all imploded. And then he started
00:43:09a new church down in Texas, I think called Trinity. And oh my goodness, is there domination involved
00:43:17there? And there was domination at faith assembly. I mean, Hobart was, he was the leader. You know,
00:43:22he was the head. No one could challenge him. No one could question him. And you're so right about
00:43:28so many ministers had no formal theological training or understanding at all. And if people say,
00:43:37well, I don't think administration, well, how can, how is it in any other field of life,
00:43:42in any field from electrician to automobile mechanics, to a medical doctor, you have to
00:43:50have some training. You can't just hang a shingle outside your door and, you know, say, I am doctor
00:43:57will practice. You know, you, you have to, you have to have some training. And yet there's such an
00:44:05anti-schooling, anti-intellectual, anti-education thrust in the whole history of the Pentecostal
00:44:15and charismatic movement that, you know, higher training is just outlawed, frowned upon greatly,
00:44:23unless you want to start your own school, like Christ for the Nations or Rhema or something.
00:44:28But then all you're doing is you're just, that's just inbred. You're just training them
00:44:33the stuff you want them to believe. Or when you really go for higher training, you hear all the
00:44:39views, you know, you hear what the professor thinks is the correct view, but you hear some
00:44:45opponents' views as well. Faith Assembly was so lacking. Faith Assembly, Faith Assembly did the same
00:44:52thing Gordon Lindsay and Kenneth Hagin did. They created their own little school and it was called the
00:44:57Charismatic School and there was one professor and that was Hobart Freeman. And he taught everything,
00:45:04Old Testament survey, New Testament survey, biblical theology, Old Testament theology,
00:45:11New Testament theology. He taught it all. So you're, you're being indoctrinated by one individual.
00:45:18That's never wise. That's never safe. You know, what medical doctor would go to school and take all of
00:45:26their classes just from one professor? You know, what, what automobile mechanic would go to school
00:45:33and say, I only want to learn from this person. There's so many other people that know things that
00:45:39can supplement what the main teacher might know and have to say. So they were so bereft and starved for
00:45:49real theological training among the ministers at Faith Assembly. And you know, my story was I never
00:45:56ended up at Faith Assembly and I probably would have had I not followed my parents, not wishes, but
00:46:03demands that I go and get an undergraduate degree from a secular university. And I did. And I graduated in
00:46:12three years instead of four years. And I didn't decide to do that until the start of my third year.
00:46:16So I had to take 34 semester hours, my next to last semester and 24 my last because I, I
00:46:23did want
00:46:24to get out. But once I got out, I didn't move to Northern Indiana. I immediately went into the
00:46:31ministry and I, and I didn't know a whole lot, but what early, the early years of my ministry, what
00:46:36that did for me is it gave me time. It gave me time to read and study because I was
00:46:43in a full-time
00:46:44ministry and I was teaching a lot, but I still, it was full-time ministry. So I had time to
00:46:50read
00:46:51and to study. And that's exactly what I did. And invariably what that does is it broadens your
00:46:59horizons. Invariably what that does, whether you are self-taught or whether you are in a formal
00:47:06setting, if you will discipline yourself and dedicate yourself to study, it will educate
00:47:13you. And you will see not only maybe some inconsistencies with what your mentor, my mentor,
00:47:21Hobart Freeman was saying, but more than inconsistencies, just flat out wrong. That is not what the Hebrew
00:47:29said. That is not what the Greek says. That can't be found anywhere in the Bible, just flat
00:47:34out wrong. And then when you see things that not really, it's not interpretation, it's just flat
00:47:40out wrong, flat out not there. All of a sudden, you know, John, what happens, your whole world
00:47:47and theology kind of caves in on you. It just implodes. And then you have to start building from scratch
00:47:52all over again. We did a podcast, I'm reminded John, just a few weeks ago on the former and latter
00:47:58reign. That terminology has for over a hundred years dominated the Pentecostal and charismatic
00:48:05movement. And yet, as I said then, and I would say now would challenge anybody to find a verse in
00:48:11the
00:48:11Bible that talks about former and latter reign in the context of some giving of the Holy Spirit.
00:48:20It's simply not there. But people have always been taught that. It sounds good. We said,
00:48:28in that podcast, that the outpouring, that the Holy Spirit and reign and water are definitely found in
00:48:34various contexts in the Old and the New Testament. The very phrase, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit
00:48:40has the connotation of reign. But those terms, former reign and latter reign, which became technical
00:48:49terms in the Pentecostal movement, they're not used in either the Old or the New Testament with regard
00:48:56to the coming of the Holy Spirit. And I'm kind of glad that they aren't, because there would be even
00:49:03bigger battles than there have been over trying to identify the date of the former versus the date of
00:49:10the latter reign. On some of Hobart's tapes, he'll say, well, the former reign was what happened with
00:49:17Peter and the people on the day of Pentecost. And the latter reign is what's happening now.
00:49:24But then on other tapes, this is how crazy it becomes. On other recorded messages, Hobart would
00:49:32say, well, the latter reign was what happened in 1901 in Topeka, Kansas, and then later in Azusa Street.
00:49:41And with people like Amy Simple McPherson and William Seymour and all of those people.
00:49:47And what we're experiencing, we as in Hobart in 1960s and 70s, what we are experiencing, that's the latter reign.
00:49:55Former reign, early century, latter reign, 60s and 70s. And then in the third place, John, on other messages,
00:50:03the former reign is what was happening then during the 60s and 70s.
00:50:08And this latter reign will be the manifestation of the sons of God, the matured sons of God being
00:50:16revealed to the world. So there was not only no agreement on former and latter reign, there was
00:50:23no consistency in Hobart's own mind. It just depended on what period in his ministry you were
00:50:31listening to cassette tapes. So it just became really, really difficult to interpret all that.
00:50:39Let me go in one small, slight new direction with the time we have left, John. There was another way.
00:50:47There was another way that Hobart used to trick people into believing him. And you just have to
00:50:54hold on for a minute and you'll hopefully understand where I'm going with this. So he knew that people
00:51:01had heard of the manifestation of the sons of God in his audience. I had not heard of that,
00:51:07but he knew that some people had. So whenever he would bring up Romans 8 or the manifestation of
00:51:14the sons of God, he would say, now, we're not talking about the extreme manifested sons people.
00:51:22So you got to picture me as 17, 18, 19 years old. I didn't even know what the non-extreme
00:51:28manifested
00:51:28sons people were, let alone the extreme. But as you listen and he explains, then you quickly catch on.
00:51:35And he loved to tell this story of being at, he had spoken at a full gospel businessmen's local
00:51:42meeting. And the, the local chapter leader had Hobart to his home, I think for, you know,
00:51:51lunch or dinner afterwards. And the leader's wife was telling Hobart about this, this, this manifested
00:52:00sons of God, this, this terrible, horrible teaching about the manifestation of the sons of God and
00:52:08how it was just creating havoc within, um, the full gospel businessmen's fellowship international.
00:52:16And, you know, circle that, that circle and the different chapters were being divided and churches
00:52:22were being divided. And she said, Oh, it's just awful. It's just horrible. This is a story Hobart would
00:52:27tell. And, um, he, and then here, here comes a punchline and he would say, Oh, really, really?
00:52:34You know, he knew what she meant by that, but he pretended like he didn't. And he said,
00:52:39so this terrible teaching on the manifested manifestation of the sons of God, just what is that?
00:52:47And the chapter leader's wife said, Oh, I don't know, but it's awful. It's awful. And Hobart used that
00:52:55to tell people that the manifestation of the sons of God teaching has a bad rap, but people really
00:53:03don't know. They just think it's bad. They've heard it's bad. They've come to believe that it's bad,
00:53:08but they really don't know what the teaching is of the manifestation of the sons of God.
00:53:16However, he would distance himself from what he called the extreme manifested sons of God. I didn't
00:53:23even know what that meant. I, you know, later I came to believe that his view is an extreme view
00:53:29of
00:53:29the manifestation of the sons of God. But what did he mean by that? There were some people who had,
00:53:38who had taken that doctrine and who had taken it, I guess you could say a step or two further
00:53:46down the
00:53:47line where they came to deny the second advent. And they came to deny that there would be any catching
00:53:57away or rapture of the church so that they themselves could have Christ being seen in them.
00:54:06Therefore, there's no need for Christ to return. His return is happening in us. And he called this
00:54:14the extreme view of the manifested sons of God. There was a minister down in Alabama who had
00:54:21gotten his teaching from Dr. Freeman, who had actually traveled up to the barn and had sung
00:54:26for them and maybe had taught there. His name was Eugene May. I knew him very well because he came
00:54:33to
00:54:33our church in Memphis and taught. And Hobart began receiving some letters from the people in Gene
00:54:40May's church and in his outreach saying, here's what Eugene May is now teaching. And Eugene May,
00:54:50and I received some of his newsletters and I saw the teaching in there, he began to be influenced by
00:54:56a guy named Bill Britton. And Bill Britton had been influenced by another man by the name of George
00:55:04Warnock. And I know you're familiar with George Warnock. Warnock had written a really
00:55:12it's an interesting and influential book in 1951 called the Feast of Tabernacles. And what Warnock
00:55:19had come to believe, he knew, I mean, all of these people, John, were so mystical. They're just
00:55:25delving into things way beyond their pay grade. But he knew that in Old Testament Israel, there were
00:55:32three, what we could call annual feasts where pilgrimages were made by Jewish men back to Jerusalem.
00:55:39If they lived outside of the Jerusalem area, they would go back on Passover and Pentecost and
00:55:46Tabernacles. Those were the three regular annual feasts. And Warnock saw deep spiritual meanings in
00:55:55these three feasts. He saw in the Feast of Passover, the crucifixion of Christ. He saw in the Feast of
00:56:03Pentecost, obviously the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So here are those three steps, or we could
00:56:09call the three groups of Christians. You've got your just boring Christian. All he is is a John 3, 16
00:56:16one.
00:56:16He has the Feast of Passover. You have Charismatics and Pentecostals. They've experienced the Feast of
00:56:23Pentecost. But what we are still waiting for is the future Feast of Tabernacles. And that is exactly
00:56:32what Dr. Freeman taught as well. And that the Feast of Tabernacles would be the manifestation of
00:56:40the sons of God. And I know you have done quite a bit of study in that area, so I'll
00:56:46let you chime in.
00:56:47The only thing that I'll bring in is that Warnock was Earn Baxter's personal secretary. Baxter was
00:56:54William Branham's campaign manager and one of the five heads of the shepherding movement, the one
00:56:59that's really launching the framework of control. And for me, it all comes down to this. I heard the
00:57:06most refreshing thing said from a minister after I left the cult. He was reading the Bible and he says,
00:57:13I don't understand that. I've not heard that in all of my 37 years in the cult. Not a minister
00:57:21says
00:57:21this because they have to know everything. Otherwise, they're not speaking with the rhema or
00:57:26the spoken word. They have to know. But this minister said, you know, I just don't understand
00:57:31that. When that phrase hit my ear, it opened my world because now you've opened the door for,
00:57:38well, if you try to make the Bible say something it doesn't say, number one, you can make it say
00:57:45something that's in disagreement with other parts of the Bible. And number two, you might be completely
00:57:50wrong anyway. And so this guy just said, I'm not going to be completely wrong. I'm just going to
00:57:54say. But here's the problem. Think about the maturity. And I don't care if you're talking about
00:58:00from when Manifested Sons came in through Branhamism or Warnock or Jim Jones and People's Temple or Hobart
00:58:07Freeman or Paul Cain, Mike Pickle. You can go all the way down the whole array of people. When
00:58:14they're teaching the mature sons and they're in a letter from Paul, how can you make that reconcile
00:58:21with what Paul describes as maturity? It's very plainly written in the Bible. Maturity is love,
00:58:28long-suffering, self-control, all of the things that is polar opposite to the entire movement's
00:58:34hierarchy. Paul says that is Christian maturity. So for me, had all of these people just simply
00:58:40said, I read this thing about Manifested Sons, and I'll be honest, I don't know what that
00:58:46Manifested word means. I would have been okay with it. But what they did is they just barreled
00:58:50down like a bull in a china shop and said, we're going to make a doctrine on this and build
00:58:55on top
00:58:55of it and on top of it to the extent we're going to end up trying to take dominion over
00:59:01other countries.
00:59:01That's how bad this has gotten. And it all started with that one error. Just somebody who was unwilling
00:59:07to say, I don't really understand what that says. So thank you for being willing to share what it
00:59:13actually says and also for the pronunciation of that word because I was struggling.
00:59:18Well, John, there's a lot of things in the Bible I don't know. I only teach in the areas where
00:59:23I feel
00:59:23confident and comfortable. But you're so right. Hobart never said, that's a passage I really struggle
00:59:30with. But if any of us would look in the mirror and be honest, there are a lot of passages
00:59:36that
00:59:37all of us struggle with. There are a lot that we don't struggle with, that we're very confident in
00:59:41our view and interpretation, and we should be. But you are so right. That is so refreshing to see and
00:59:49hear humility in a Christian minister. And I don't think you find it in our circles. I think you find
00:59:55it
00:59:55in other circles. You'll definitely find it with trained seminary professors because so much of
01:00:01their training is in a particular area of biblical studies, and they aren't that familiar with some
01:00:06other area. And the Bible is vast. So we need to all give one another plenty of room to say,
01:00:14you know,
01:00:14that's a verse or a text or a chapter that I just haven't spent enough time with. So rather than
01:00:20just
01:00:21launch out into the deep and be a fool, I'm just going to suspend judgment on that for right now.
01:00:27Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
01:00:31the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic
01:00:36Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon,
01:00:42Kindle, and Audible.
01:01:48We'll see you next time.