- 5 hours ago
John and Allen discuss what happens when people remain physically involved in a church or religious group after mentally checking out. Allen draws from decades of observing religious movements and working around evangelistic ministries, while John describes experiences with people who continued participating because of family, community, expectations, leadership roles, and fear of what leaving might cost.
Their conversation explores the social dynamics that can keep both members and leaders involved after belief begins to fade, including fundraising systems, personal connections with religious figures, black-and-white thinking, family relationships, and the difficulty of breaking established routines. They also examine how access to outside information can give people new points of reference and help them recognize that they have choices.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:08 Why People Pretend to Believe
05:06 Behind the Scenes of Traveling Healing Evangelists
08:02 Jim Jones and the Competition for Followers
11:22 Becoming an Observer Instead of a Believer
15:04 The Fundraising Machinery Behind Religious Ministries
20:03 Prayer Cloths, Donations, and Manufactured Connections
27:10 Why People Stay in High-Control Religious Groups
34:30 When Religious Leaders No Longer Believe
39:54 Fundamentalist Anonymous and the Psychology of Control
46:47 Family Relationships and the Difficulty of Leaving
54:13 The Mental Health Consequences of Being PIMO
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Their conversation explores the social dynamics that can keep both members and leaders involved after belief begins to fade, including fundraising systems, personal connections with religious figures, black-and-white thinking, family relationships, and the difficulty of breaking established routines. They also examine how access to outside information can give people new points of reference and help them recognize that they have choices.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:08 Why People Pretend to Believe
05:06 Behind the Scenes of Traveling Healing Evangelists
08:02 Jim Jones and the Competition for Followers
11:22 Becoming an Observer Instead of a Believer
15:04 The Fundraising Machinery Behind Religious Ministries
20:03 Prayer Cloths, Donations, and Manufactured Connections
27:10 Why People Stay in High-Control Religious Groups
34:30 When Religious Leaders No Longer Believe
39:54 Fundamentalist Anonymous and the Psychology of Control
46:47 Family Relationships and the Difficulty of Leaving
54:13 The Mental Health Consequences of Being PIMO
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Alan.
00:00:45Alan, it's good to have you on.
00:00:47We have spoken, I don't know how many years it is now that we've spoken, but we've communicated through email
00:00:52and phone and text, and you have so much information in your head.
00:00:57And you are what – you have gave me this new term, which this is the podcast.
00:01:03We're going to talk about PIMO, which is physically in, mentally out.
00:01:08And the reason why that subject interests me so much is because in the church that I grew up, the
00:01:14Branham Tabernacle, and all of the affiliate churches that we were in, I can say without question that there were
00:01:21many people I knew that were PIMO, physically in, mentally out.
00:01:24And after I escaped, I started doing what I'm doing, I'll never forget this conversation that I had with this
00:01:31guy.
00:01:31He sat down with me, and he's like, why are you doing this?
00:01:34And I said, because it's wrong.
00:01:35This stuff that they're saying is not true.
00:01:37And he says, everybody knows that.
00:01:40Everybody knows that.
00:01:42And he said, but they have these happy lives.
00:01:45They go to church.
00:01:46They do their thing.
00:01:47They go home.
00:01:48They have a community.
00:01:49It's a happy life.
00:01:50We all know it's false.
00:01:51And I looked at him, I'm like, are you kidding me?
00:01:55So I'm very glad to have you on for that aspect, because you describe yourself as physically and mentally out,
00:02:02not of the Branham group, but I'll let you describe where you came from.
00:02:05But that just fascinates me.
00:02:07It really does.
00:02:09Well, part of it is that we could discuss in dealing later when I was doing work with cult members
00:02:15and ex-cult members was a lot of it had to do among the common trait of people who were
00:02:21in different places.
00:02:21And cults of different types, fill in the blank, which one you want, would be a role plane.
00:02:26A lot of it would be the all and some of the problems people had was the role plane that
00:02:32they saw, the all or nothing black or white attitude about things in a cult, the inconsistencies, in some cases,
00:02:42particularly some cults that were very personality driven.
00:02:46And what we're talking about here, it's interesting because often I found out sometimes when people would catch up with
00:02:52each other later on.
00:02:53And I remember one time a lady was saying, you know, I really wasn't into it at all.
00:02:59I was there, but I really had a lot of disbelief.
00:03:02But I only stayed because you were so sincere and you were so, you know, it seems so important and
00:03:09true to you.
00:03:10And she says, well, actually, I felt the same way when I was staying in because I thought you were
00:03:15the sincere person.
00:03:16So Barbara Harrison wrote a wonderful book about her life before, during, and after Jehovah's Witness called Visions of Glory,
00:03:25which I would recommend to anyone.
00:03:26And she talks about a case where one lady, she basically had a, she was just having a crisis of
00:03:32faith.
00:03:32She had grown up in the Jehovah's Witnesses, married a Jehovah's Witness.
00:03:35And they were just getting, she and her husband were getting ready to work and finally she just couldn't stand
00:03:39it.
00:03:40She sets breakfast down and says, I just want you to know, I haven't believed any of this for the
00:03:45last two years.
00:03:47He goes, wait a minute, you're telling me all the things we do, the meetings, the witnessing, the training, and
00:03:56you're going to tell me you have not believed any of this for the last two years?
00:04:00And basically, she spends some time, and then finally she convinces him that she's sincere about her disbelief.
00:04:09He says, well, I want you to know that's okay with me because I haven't believed any of this for
00:04:13the last three years.
00:04:15The roles, the games that people play with each other, the expectations some people feel they have to hold with
00:04:22each other.
00:04:24And so that's part of it.
00:04:26My role was more of a, I would say more of an observer, more of a lurker.
00:04:31One person, I remember what we may mention, Dr. David Edwin Harrell.
00:04:36I was once at a conference at Pepperdine on church history.
00:04:39And he said, well, how do I introduce you to, how do I say what your position is?
00:04:43You know, I can't say you're a member of this, you're a member of that.
00:04:46And I said, well, think of it this way.
00:04:47I love football.
00:04:49I know the history of all the players.
00:04:52I know how everything's, the history of each game and each team.
00:04:56I just never bothered to suit up and get on a team.
00:05:01And so, anyway, so what happened was I've been more of a lurker than an observer.
00:05:07It all happened when, just by chance, I met a then well-known evangelist, a healing evangelist.
00:05:16And down the road, he offered me a job.
00:05:19He knew I used to, a million years ago, I used to work in the circus business.
00:05:23And down in that business, you're traveling, you know, every week you're traveling constantly from one town to another.
00:05:29And now, first he was thinking, well, you know, what in the world could my million-dollar computerized fundraising operation
00:05:38have to do with this circus guy, this kid from this teenager from the circus?
00:05:42And then later, he contacted me a couple weeks later and said, I have an idea.
00:05:46Now, I understand, this is in the early 70s, before we had a lot of the monitoring.
00:05:50He said, I've been having trouble making sure all the radio stations are playing my programs on time, playing them
00:05:56correctly, or in my advertising to use.
00:05:59And what I was thinking, I was talking to the others, I said, I could use somebody like you, someone
00:06:03who can be on the road, stay on the road, practically live on the road, and constantly be ahead of
00:06:09everything we're doing.
00:06:10And I said, that's what, and they said, that basically, you know, that's what we do.
00:06:13So, that's what I did.
00:06:15So, for a good while, basically, I'd be going from town to town, checking with the different stations to see
00:06:23whether or not they were playing.
00:06:24Now, again, back then, it was very difficult to monitor things.
00:06:26All you had to do was basically take people's written reports or word for it.
00:06:30But you'd go there, and you'd find out either, A, worse, they weren't playing the program at all, or instead
00:06:34of the 30-minute program, they would cut it in half and just play 15 minutes while charging the ministry
00:06:40for the full half hour, etc., and things like that.
00:06:43So, again, so, also, particularly when he was going to have a meeting, it was to make sure the special
00:06:47spots were being run, also the billboards and other advertising was in place.
00:06:52So, that's what I did for a while.
00:06:53Now, what was interesting is because, for me, this was quite an eye-opener.
00:06:56I was intrigued by evangelism and, you know, just what I would see on TV.
00:07:01I'd see, watch Billy Graham or Oral Roberts and things like that.
00:07:04But this was a little deep dive.
00:07:05But here I was traveling, you know, it's one thing.
00:07:06Here I grew up in California, and another thing to be going through Valdosta, Georgia, and Gulfport, Mississippi, and all
00:07:13these places, it was a whole different world.
00:07:16And I became more and more intrigued by evangelism, the subculture, the mechanics behind it.
00:07:25And I realized there's a lot more behind this than just what people perceive on that screen.
00:07:31And so, I became actually, when I'd go for traveling, it actually was really helpful because I could, part of
00:07:38my job was also checking out on other ministries.
00:07:41My job was to monitor other people's mail and broadcasts and see what they were up to.
00:07:46And there was a tremendous amount of competition between the two.
00:07:49And particularly the ministries that appeal to the, I guess it appeals everywhere, but the ministries that appeal to the
00:07:56hardscrapple, poverty-level people here.
00:08:00It was just fighting tooth and nail over their dollars.
00:08:08And anyway, so I can remember one time we were going to have a meeting at the Shrine Auditorium in
00:08:14Los Angeles.
00:08:15It seats several thousand people.
00:08:17And this was early 70s.
00:08:18This is the first time I've ever heard of them.
00:08:19And there were some people outside handing out leaflets.
00:08:22And the leaflets said, the true man of God is Jim Jones.
00:08:26Come to the people's temple, you know, and see what God has in store for you.
00:08:32And the people would be going, would be telling people, oh, never mind this guy, oh, Jim Jones, he's a
00:08:37real man of God, blah, blah, blah.
00:08:39And they'd be actually going to the meetings and sometimes trying to disrupt it.
00:08:43Actually, when the man was walking through, they actually try to take hold of his microphone and so forth.
00:08:48And this happened in a couple of different places.
00:08:50So eventually, by the time we played San Francisco, he had a bodyguard nearby because it was a little scary.
00:08:56And interesting, I found out later, if you're familiar with Don Stewart, who was A.A. Allen's successor, he, at
00:09:04the same time, he was having his meetings.
00:09:06And it turns out throughout California, Jim Jones people were doing this with a different traveling evangelist.
00:09:13Just trying to cause problems or maybe trying to steal people away.
00:09:18And so, again, like I said, sometimes they try to just grab the microphone or something like that.
00:09:22Now, Don Stewart's good old boys, they'd rather fight than eat.
00:09:27So what happened is, the first time someone tried, one of the Jim Jones members went up and tried to
00:09:32grab Don Stewart's microphone,
00:09:33the drummer literally jumped over his drum set and knocked him over the orchestra pit.
00:09:42And after that, there weren't any, you know, a very good witness for the Lord, no doubt.
00:09:48And, but no, but again, it was a very good, but after that, Jim Jones, I noticed that he didn't
00:09:54bother any other ministries going around.
00:09:57It's interesting because, anyway, so I did a good deal of traveling and I was more interested in the subculture.
00:10:02I became more interested, I really didn't know that much about Pentecostalism or much of its history.
00:10:07And then seeing the different groups, the different approaches people had, and basically just talking to people.
00:10:12And when you go to the meetings and listen, talking to the people, it can be very intriguing, very illuminating,
00:10:18both funny and sad sometimes, depending.
00:10:20Because you're dealing with people's lives.
00:10:23And so that's, so again, and from that time, I just became a lifetime observer of everything that went on.
00:10:31And so I'm fortunate that I was able to, as the years went on, I was able to see the
00:10:36different parts of what the healing revival was by the 70s, what it had morphed into.
00:10:41And then you had the Jesus movement and the burgeoning charismatic movement and all the things that evolved in today.
00:10:48And, again, as you know, one thing, as you know, a lot of people have no idea who William Branham
00:10:54was.
00:10:56But his influence still is there.
00:10:58And seeing that subculture of, particularly the people who are really into Branham, either as a gifted teacher, gifted evangelist,
00:11:08or God himself.
00:11:10And so, and then, again, I stumbled upon your broadcast, your podcast, and found it very intriguing listening to that.
00:11:18So I told you a long answer about what I'm up to.
00:11:21Well, I'm hoping that somebody else besides me caught this.
00:11:24You said you're the observer.
00:11:26And for those of you who are watching YouTube, he's standing in front of this universe where he's got the
00:11:32world behind him.
00:11:33Well, there's a Marvel show, one of my favorite Marvel comics is called The Watcher, and he's like this.
00:11:39He's out in the universe.
00:11:41And if you apply that concept, what you just described, if you apply that to the church setting, it disables
00:11:47their ability to take hold of your mind.
00:11:50I actually did this.
00:11:51Whenever I left the Branham Tabernacle, we got deep into a church.
00:11:55Actually, in my opinion, we got a little bit too deep headfirst for the first church that we experienced.
00:12:00It was a good church.
00:12:02A lot of things went well.
00:12:03But when we left, it was difficult because we got in too deep without figuring out where it was we
00:12:08were going to land.
00:12:09So in the churches after this, the subsequent churches, I played The Watcher.
00:12:15When you go to church, they want you to – it's a performance thing.
00:12:18They want you to stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down, raise your hand, lower your hand, raise your
00:12:22hand, amen, all of this stuff.
00:12:24Well, what they're doing is they're building up participation, and it's very, very difficult to just be a watcher because
00:12:29you're engaged.
00:12:31I purposefully – you know, I didn't want to stand out like a sore thumb, so I did stand up
00:12:36and sit whenever they did this.
00:12:37But I tried very, very hard to just simply watch.
00:12:41I wanted to see the emotions.
00:12:42I wanted to see the way that the audience or the congregation – I wanted to see how they reacted
00:12:47to the sermon, to the pastor.
00:12:49I wanted to see that connection.
00:12:51I wanted to see was he just simply empowering them, or was he trying to take power over them.
00:12:57So all of these things, I was being The Watcher.
00:13:00And it goes back to, you know, to what you said before.
00:13:03You can be physically there, but mentally checked out.
00:13:07I purposefully did this.
00:13:09Now, I did engage in some of the sermons, but what I would do is I would engage in a
00:13:14few sermons, and then I would just be a watcher.
00:13:15So that I could see where it was headed, where it was going, and I purposefully did this.
00:13:20What I learned was how to critically think.
00:13:23If I'm sitting there and I'm watching, observing, I can critically think about all of this, and it is life
00:13:29-changing.
00:13:29They cannot hijack your mind when you do this.
00:13:32Not that they would have.
00:13:33We went to some good churches.
00:13:35I'll say that.
00:13:36But the thing about it is, the people that I have spoken with, I had this one family who contacted
00:13:43me.
00:13:43They said that they had got out of a certain group, and they said, it was weird, John, because my
00:13:49wife was there, and she was physically in, mentally out, kind of like he's a PMO.
00:13:53And he said, she was physically there with me, and I thought she was engaged in believing, and she didn't
00:14:02know that I was physically there and mentally checked out.
00:14:06So we were both kind of keeping each other there.
00:14:09So we had built our own prison, I guess you would say, in the group that they went.
00:14:14It was pretty destructive.
00:14:15When they left, they had that same discussion like you talked about.
00:14:18Why didn't you tell me?
00:14:20Why didn't you say anything?
00:14:21Well, what I learned from that experience in talking with other people, there's a large number of people that get
00:14:27caught up in these churches that just do not sit and observe and critically think.
00:14:32And they're physically there, mentally checked out, and they're actually part of the walls that are keeping the rest of
00:14:38them in there.
00:14:39Well, I think part of it is that, as you could speak from experience, like I say, I never was
00:14:45a true believer.
00:14:46I never bought into it.
00:14:47Again, I'm strictly watching things.
00:14:48In some ways, it was from a personal historical view, sociological view, trying to learn things.
00:14:55And when I was working for the evangelist, a lot of it was just gathering data, particularly when you're dealing
00:15:00with other evangelists.
00:15:01I could come back and say, hey, he did this, they were doing that, and so forth.
00:15:05A lot of it had to do, for example, with a direct mail.
00:15:09A key thing, particularly before computers, a lot of it was the direct mail, the fundraising.
00:15:13And the most important thing was to get people's names on those lists so you could start to generate the
00:15:19letters, because that's where the money really goes.
00:15:24For a lot of them, what they would gather in the meetings wasn't very much compared to what you could
00:15:29generate in direct mail.
00:15:30And if you ever went to a direct mail convention or a fundraising convention, people would really have their eyes
00:15:41open to what's going on.
00:15:42When you see this prayerfully written letter, the direct mail analysts would say, okay, now when we said we were
00:15:49raising money for starving children in El Salvador, we got a 4.8 response.
00:15:56But now that we're asking for money for starving children in Rwanda, we're now getting a 7.2 response.
00:16:03So, phooey on the El Salvador kids, you know, I apologize for that.
00:16:08But, you know, the reality is, particularly the demographics of the donor base, who your donor base is, a lot
00:16:13of these people would say, oh, yeah, let's, you know, particularly, let's say you'd say, oh, we're doing this to
00:16:17keep them because they're being oppressed by godless communism, which they very well could be.
00:16:22You know, or these people, but if you went to the same group and said, hey, there's kids starving in
00:16:26Detroit, they'd say, well, who cares?
00:16:28But, and that sounds terrible, but it's just part of the reality.
00:16:32But, again, a lot of it just so much has to do with the direct mail.
00:16:35I was just thinking, we're talking about Jim Jones earlier, a lot of times when they, you would, one of
00:16:41the reasons why you fill out that prayer card or other information was so that he could get your name
00:16:44and address and get you on the mailing list and get the applications.
00:16:47Now, Jim Jones did not have that sophisticated apparatus of the computerized or the older mechanical apparatus doing direct mail
00:16:57letters.
00:16:57So, he had his followers literally just sit down at long tables and write out letters, write out long letters
00:17:03and telling, and it's, I have some of them now.
00:17:06I've gotten them on the list and it's kind of creepy now.
00:17:09It's both sad and creepy because they're talking, oh, what a wonderful paradise people's temple is.
00:17:14And, if you just come here and just see, you know, what our prophet Jim Jones is doing, it's almost
00:17:19like these harpies are inviting you so you can crash your ship on the rocks.
00:17:26And, interesting here, one was signed by Dina Myrtle.
00:17:31And, years later, she defected from Jim Jones.
00:17:36And, she later, after Jonestown, the massacre at Jonestown, she wrote a book called Six Years with God.
00:17:42And, not long after that, she, her husband, and daughter were found murdered in their house home.
00:17:49And, so, no one has ever been determined.
00:17:53A lot of people worried it was a revenge from the people's temple.
00:17:57But, unfortunately, that didn't seem to be the case.
00:17:59So, other people felt it could have been other people that could have been involved with that.
00:18:05But, again, part of it, this is just to show you, again, how much in the direct mail, and how
00:18:11much, when people see what's going on, oh, this is what God's moving, this is what he said God is
00:18:16leading to.
00:18:16It's all, 99% of it, I'll say 100% of all, is all the direct mail and fundraising consultants
00:18:23that are saying, this is what's moving, what isn't.
00:18:26And, we were talking earlier, I remember Oral Roberts, of course, for all of his time, is known for his
00:18:31healing and prosperity theology, like seed faith and so forth here.
00:18:38And, so, he was, that was what he was always pushing.
00:18:41And, his good friend, Dimas Shakirian, told him, you know, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is so important.
00:18:47Why don't you spend some time emphasizing that?
00:18:50So, he said, okay.
00:18:51So, he spent his TV show talking about the emphasis of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and how it's
00:18:56important for the indwelling and speaking of tongues, etc., etc.
00:19:00So, he did that for a couple of weeks, and his direct mail people, his vice president then, Wayne Robinson,
00:19:06told me, they came back to him after a couple of weeks and said,
00:19:09Oral, since you've changed, since you went to this baptism of the Holy Spirit stuff, we went from $4.82
00:19:15a week to $2.65 a week.
00:19:18So, the baptism, and back to the prosperity.
00:19:23Of course, if you're trying to maintain a multi-million dollar operation, you have to keep things going.
00:19:30Some people don't appreciate, some of these ministries, you've got this ball rolling, and you are responsible for millions of
00:19:37dollars of overhead, if you're that big.
00:19:40You have to do what generates the money.
00:19:43And, very few people have the opportunity to do otherwise.
00:19:45It isn't necessarily what you think is right, but it's what will generate the funds.
00:19:50I remember you were talking in one of your broadcasts about prayer cloths.
00:19:54Now, the prayer cloths that they were giving out, people used these because they had a biblical reference, where Paul
00:20:02took out the cloths, and people used them.
00:20:08So, the direct mail consultants have tried all kinds of things.
00:20:11They've used prayer photos, prayer emblems, and the prayer cloth.
00:20:17The prayer cloth, 99% of the time, has always been the best item to use.
00:20:25Why?
00:20:26Simply, again, it has nothing to do with what it's all about, if I can find it.
00:20:31What it means is, the prayer cloth can fit into a number 10 envelope at no extra cost.
00:20:38Yes.
00:20:39Okay.
00:20:40That is, that's why, that's why a prayer cloth, they used to have bottles of oil, they had more bulky
00:20:47things here.
00:20:48But the advantage of the prayer cloth was, again, it cost nothing, it added nothing to the postage, it was
00:20:53easily pliable.
00:20:55And, in fact, there's one person, one Japanist, he was moving about a million prayer cloths a year.
00:21:00And, there was so much that he used, he got his directly from the textile mills in South Carolina, that
00:21:07he was moving so many of them.
00:21:09And, so, anyway, so that's part of that.
00:21:12And, for those of you who are unfamiliar with this, have you ever held one in your hand?
00:21:16I remember we were told, these came off of the body of our precious brother Branham, and it was like
00:21:22his t-shirts or whatever.
00:21:24Well, I held the thing, and if it was a t-shirt, it was the thinnest t-shirt I've ever
00:21:28seen.
00:21:29The ones that they sin, it's not the quality cloth like you're thinking of.
00:21:33This is the cheapest that they can possibly buy to stuff in an envelope.
00:21:37And, you know, when you think about the biblical context they're trying to use it under, Paul never sent these
00:21:42out to the masses.
00:21:43That's not what this is talking about at all.
00:21:45But, if you have a massive radio ministry, television ministry, you've got to have something that makes them feel engaged.
00:21:53So, back to what I was saying before, if you can keep the people engaged, they will shut off all
00:21:58of their critical thinking.
00:21:59Well, the key word is, often you hear at business conventions, direct mail, and fundraising meetings, as they say, the
00:22:07key word is, we want people involved in this ministry.
00:22:10We want them engaged.
00:22:12And, a key thing is, like you say, the different evangelists who have the prayer classes, I'm going to pray
00:22:19over this cloth, and then send it out to you.
00:22:22So, the image was, people were going, the preacher's going, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and then put
00:22:28it in the envelope and mail it to him.
00:22:29And so, what happened is, basically, they're standing in front of a warehouse and say, bless them all, Lord, let's
00:22:35go to lunch.
00:22:37It sounds crass, I'm sorry if that offends people, but that's the reality.
00:22:40This is just what I've seen.
00:22:41This is my perception.
00:22:42You might say, other people might say they saw something else, but this is what I've seen.
00:22:46The other thing that makes this interesting is, it's not just that you be engaged.
00:22:50You have to be engaged in such a way that you stay engaged.
00:22:54And, I have learned through all of the research that I have done, in my opinion, the best way to
00:22:59do this is to engage them with fear.
00:23:01And, you can do this in many, many ways.
00:23:05Often, the fear can come as what is in disguise as a blessing.
00:23:10In other words, you could have a minister who's saying some prophecy over a couple who's wanting to get married
00:23:17or get engaged.
00:23:18They prophesy over you, God told me this, that, and the other.
00:23:22Well, if God told him, think outside of that.
00:23:25Think of the negative aspect of that.
00:23:26If they do separate, now they have this fear of separation because God said it.
00:23:31So, with the blessing also comes the fear in the way that they present it.
00:23:36And, half the time, God didn't tell them anything.
00:23:38They're just saying something to appease the crowd.
00:23:41So, prophecy in this movement becomes a trap.
00:23:44Well, it could be that.
00:23:44And, also, because people want to, A, they want to get the blessing.
00:23:48And, also, they want to say, hey, I'm having this problem.
00:23:52And, I need prayer from Brother Roberts or Brother Epley or Brother Terrell or whoever.
00:23:57And, so, they're doing this, A, to be involved in their ministry and also help them when they're in good
00:24:04favor.
00:24:05A point here is that, I remember one time, it was a kid who did media for Don Stewart decades
00:24:14ago.
00:24:14He said, the people who are regular supporters, the people, he quoted like half a million people who are direct,
00:24:22that meant they actively donated every other month to the ministry through the mail.
00:24:26And, he said, those who actively donate, each one of them, each one believes they have a personal one-on
00:24:33-one relationship with Don Stewart.
00:24:36And, doesn't, no, you talk to others, they say, no, when Oral Roberts would talk on TV, he says, well,
00:24:42you write me a letter, I'll write you back.
00:24:44And, people are thinking, okay, they're Oral, okay?
00:24:47And, then, when they get the letter back, they say, oh.
00:24:50So, but they don't realize the computerized system that this is all going through.
00:24:55And, back to what people don't realize, to the larger ministries, particularly when it was all mail, before it became
00:25:01more online,
00:25:02you'd write a letter and say, dear brother Epley, or whoever, my husband's drinking, I need a job, please pray
00:25:09for me.
00:25:10And, so, what happens is, it goes through, it goes into the office, they open it up, and the first
00:25:15reader says, okay, drinking, need job.
00:25:19Q, A, 4, B.
00:25:22And, they're right here.
00:25:23Then, it goes down the line, and then, check if you're dealing, when you have a good computerized system, rather
00:25:29than having to type in, in the old days, they would just have to type in the form letter.
00:25:33But, here, okay, so they see the letters, okay, blah, blah, blah, okay, Mrs. Jones, okay, and they type in
00:25:39those, and then they say, dear Mrs. Jones, I was very sorry to hear about your husband's drinking,
00:25:43and we're going to pray for that, you know, hold him up for his deliverance.
00:25:47And, right now, we're believing in faith, that you get a job, that it will serve your needs, etc.
00:25:52So, a week later, Mrs. Jones gets a letter from Oral, or whoever, and, again, it has her name, lists
00:26:02every one of her prayer requests, and then, again, she believes, or, very important, wants to believe, or needs to
00:26:11believe, someone out there cares.
00:26:13There's a lot of, there's a lot of, the tragedy is, there's a lot of people out there, who, again,
00:26:19think of it this way, for some people, for a lot of people, their friend, the person they count on,
00:26:25is that person on TV, that person online.
00:26:29And, again, that's just a created image.
00:26:33And, I can remember, sometimes what would happen is, people, someone would pass away, and the relatives would finally come
00:26:39around, and say, well, why did she donate all this money to brother, why did she give, assign all her
00:26:46money over to so-and-so?
00:26:48And, basically, or, and they say, well, so-and-so wrote her every week, wrote her every month.
00:26:56When was the last time you wrote her?
00:26:57When was the last time you called her, talked to her?
00:27:00And, so, and that's part of the, that's part of the tragedy of it all.
00:27:04And, that people, again, people need, need that connection.
00:27:08It was, again, we were talking about why people stay, as you know, part of the reason why a lot
00:27:13of people stay in cults, is simply because, so much of their life, their family, their business, their social life
00:27:20is tied up in that.
00:27:22As you, particularly, in your high demand circles that you've seen in, people, and also people have seen what happens
00:27:28to those that are shown.
00:27:30They're stunned, that are cut off.
00:27:32And, they know, they know, they know, you know, they're, again, they're sitting there, listening to the sermons and going,
00:27:37oh, hey, you know, but they cannot, but they do not want to be out there.
00:27:41And, so, that's one of the, that's one of the problems why people stay, is because, just simply because of
00:27:48that.
00:27:48I found, on an extreme, on a different level, I always found it fascinating, there's something wonderful about the human
00:27:55spirit, how some people, despite having no point of reference, other point of reference, get out of where they are.
00:28:01They could be in a cult, in the top of a mountain, where they know, they've never, never been down
00:28:07to, down into town.
00:28:08They could be on an island somewhere.
00:28:10But, and I think, just go back, think people who lived through generations of slavery, or grew up in a
00:28:16communist country, where all you hear is a party line.
00:28:19You know, no other reference.
00:28:20And, somehow, they decide, they think, I'm not staying here.
00:28:23There has, they're either, if there isn't something on the other side of the mountain, or on the other side
00:28:28of the road, I'm going to, I'm going to create, build it myself.
00:28:32So, and, oh, an important thing, I was listening to a lady who she was talking about, she was involved
00:28:37in a very conservative, ultra-Orthodox Jewish group.
00:28:42I think, similar to the Hasidim, in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.
00:28:46And, she said something I've been hearing more and more in the last number of years.
00:28:49She says, the internet has been a key factor for so many people getting out.
00:28:54And, I talked to a person, he was fourth-generation Mormon.
00:28:59And, literally, one of those people who proudly talks about, oh, me and Joseph, my family, with Joseph Smith, blah,
00:29:05blah, blah, blah.
00:29:05And, or Brigham Young, or whatever.
00:29:07And, but, a lot of them say, has said, it's that internet.
00:29:11Because, before, people would say, they'd sit in their pew, they're the pew, thinking, am I the only one thinking
00:29:17this way?
00:29:17There's something that must be wrong with me, everybody else seems to be okay.
00:29:20But, and they go along.
00:29:22But, people are going online, and they're thinking, oh, people say, oh, this church is the greatest thing in the
00:29:27world.
00:29:27And, they're going online, and say, they Google this group, and say, no, other people are saying the exact opposite.
00:29:34And, then they say, oh, what's this guy, John Collins?
00:29:38He's saying, he's talking the way I'm thinking.
00:29:40There's others out there.
00:29:43And, so, in fact, there's one thing I'll back up, I'll, that, for, so, the internet, I've seen in a
00:29:48lot of different areas, has been extremely helpful, because people are accessing other information, they're finding out.
00:29:54So, no, this person did not start this church, because they were in the Middle East.
00:29:59They started this church when they were in Little Rock, Arkansas, working for this radio station.
00:30:05And, then, again, but the key thing is, a lot of times, was finding other people, and likewise, and being
00:30:12able to communicate.
00:30:14If I'm talking too long, you'll let me know.
00:30:15But, going into the 80s, I was in L.A., working in television production at the time.
00:30:22And, there was a group that emerged called Fundamentalist Anonymous.
00:30:26And, it got a little bit of buzz on TV, and in the news, because the word fundamentalist was being
00:30:32thrown around a lot during the Reagan era.
00:30:34And, Jerry Falwell, and all his gang.
00:30:39And, a group, a self-help group about people getting out of different groups.
00:30:45And, I thought, it sounded almost anonymous, you almost think it's like a 12-step group, like AA, or one
00:30:50of those.
00:30:51And, I was intrigued, like, I can understand how people believe in something, but how do you unbelieve something?
00:30:57And, so, I was curious, I went to one of the meetings in Los Angeles, and I was very intrigued
00:31:01by what I heard.
00:31:02It was interesting to hear, it was run by, he was an ex-evangelic, he grew up in a, mostly
00:31:09a more mainline evangelical church, but had, his whole lifestyle, family life was involved with it.
00:31:15And, he eventually, he joined the army, and he became a psychologist with the army.
00:31:20But, eventually, he got himself out.
00:31:23And, what was fascinating was that, you'd listen to the people, and, again, you'd hear these stories.
00:31:29Why were they in?
00:31:29They talked about, or what got them out, most important.
00:31:34It was that all-or-nothing feeling, that all-or-nothing mentality.
00:31:39There was no gray area.
00:31:40There was no room for, well, maybe, you know, it was, someone said, I forgot, I don't know if I
00:31:48heard it on your podcast or somewhere.
00:31:50Someone says, no one flies a plane into the World Trade Center thinking, well, maybe I'm wrong on this.
00:31:56You know, it's that sense of, in fact, that's one of the appeals of a lot of groups, is that
00:32:02certainty,
00:32:03that feel of certainty, in a world of compromise and chaos, that feeling of certainty, that when you go there,
00:32:12everything is right.
00:32:14Everything makes sense.
00:32:16It reminds me, I was doing a TV show, and I interviewed, pre-interviewed for a man.
00:32:22He was a well-known basketball referee.
00:32:25He'd be flown across the country to referee important games, basketball games.
00:32:32And one time, just in the conversation, he just mentioned, well, you know, but I never really cared for the
00:32:36game myself.
00:32:37And he said, wait a minute, you've spent your life working, doing this.
00:32:42This is how you make your living, and you don't care for the game?
00:32:45Why were you involved?
00:32:47He says, well, the world is filled, the world is full of compromise.
00:32:53Everything you have to bend a knee, everything you have to make do, make excuses.
00:32:58But when I'm on that court, there is no compromise.
00:33:01There are definitive rules.
00:33:03Rules can be defined within a quarter of an inch.
00:33:06How an outcome of a gameplay is done by a split second.
00:33:11You're either inbounds or outbounds.
00:33:13And then for that hour or two during the game, I'm in a world where there is no compromise, and
00:33:21I run it.
00:33:22And I think for some people, that's part of the appeal, that they're in that world where there is no
00:33:26compromise, or at least I think so, or hope so, where there is that sense of certainty.
00:33:31Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
00:33:39reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
00:33:44You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:33:52On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
00:34:00John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:34:06You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:34:13If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
00:34:19top.
00:34:19And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
00:34:25watching.
00:34:26On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:34:31I'm actually really glad that you brought up the basketball player example, because I've been trying to frame this into
00:34:37words where people can understand it.
00:34:39There are people who look at whoever the name is, Mike Bickle or whoever, and they say, this guy was
00:34:44just out to do wrong.
00:34:45This guy didn't believe what he said.
00:34:47He's come up with all of this stuff.
00:34:49But think about that basketball player and think about leadership.
00:34:52I know for a fact multiple leaders, because multiple have told me, who were in the group that they were
00:35:00leading and didn't believe it.
00:35:01They were PIMO.
00:35:03They were physically there.
00:35:04They had checked out.
00:35:05And they were preaching to their congregations.
00:35:07Now, the problem with this is that if you don't believe what you're saying and it's wrong and your theology
00:35:13is wrong, you're leading people astray and there's a lot of theological problems.
00:35:17But think of it from the preacher's side.
00:35:19From the preacher's side, he's in a position where he's got money coming in.
00:35:24You can't just walk away.
00:35:25Suddenly, if you come out and you say, all of this that I have taught you is wrong, well, then
00:35:30everybody leaves and you don't have a job.
00:35:32And you've got to feed your family, keep your lights on, et cetera.
00:35:35So there's that problem.
00:35:36But there's the other thing that you just said, which is really, really important to grasp.
00:35:41When you are in one of these high-demand groups, high-control groups, you have a set of rules.
00:35:47And when they get up and they speak, they may not believe any of it.
00:35:51But when you have that package set of rules, it's very easy to just repeat it over and over.
00:35:56And they get in the repetition.
00:35:58And they get so caught up in it that they're more comfortable in the repetition of the rules than they
00:36:03are to try to figure out, well, how do I get out of this thing?
00:36:06It's actually easier for them to stay in it.
00:36:08Well, that's true.
00:36:09And also, that can be in case.
00:36:11But I think you're a little generous to some of the people.
00:36:14Because the reason why some people got into it and stayed in it was strictly for the money, strictly for
00:36:21the power, strictly for the position.
00:36:23And that's why they're staying.
00:36:24There are some people who know who they are.
00:36:25And they know the ability to lead people in different directions.
00:36:29But even that can be toxic sometimes.
00:36:31If people follow you and so forth here, that can be bad.
00:36:40I remember historian Robert Carroll said something interesting.
00:36:43He said, power does not corrupt.
00:36:45It reveals.
00:36:47It reveals who you are and what you would do if you had power.
00:36:50Would you cowardly run from it?
00:36:52Would you use it?
00:36:54Would you abuse it?
00:36:55Or would you use it to lead others?
00:36:56And so forth here.
00:36:57But a lot of the people, particularly some of the people that we deal with here on your podcast, they're
00:37:04very much there.
00:37:05They started strictly for monetary or other reasons.
00:37:09And that's why they're there.
00:37:11People that may not like to hear that, but that's the reality.
00:37:15The reality is if you took people and said, hey, we'll pay you all.
00:37:20If you said, hey, we'll work like the Salvation Army.
00:37:23Well, you'll be taken care of.
00:37:25You'll have housing.
00:37:26Your children and families, we won't care of.
00:37:29Go to school and so forth here.
00:37:32And they'd all be gone.
00:37:35Yeah, don't get me wrong.
00:37:36There's some wolves among the sheep.
00:37:38What I'm referring to essentially is this.
00:37:41There are leaders who are PIMO.
00:37:43They're physically there.
00:37:44They're mentally checked out.
00:37:45Some of them, yes, did come for money.
00:37:47I know many who didn't get into it for money.
00:37:50They just got into it because that was what their family was in.
00:37:53So you've got all sides.
00:37:55But there are leaders who are leading who are mentally checked out.
00:37:59And it's obvious, too, whenever one is fully on fire, believing it 100%, and then when they don't, you can
00:38:06watch the tone of their sermons change.
00:38:08They get a little bit boring and slower.
00:38:11Or when they're in it and they're in that high control mode, often their language is much more rapid coming
00:38:19out of their mouth behind the pulpit.
00:38:20They're really, really, they're engaged.
00:38:22And you can tell when they disengage, which is kind of funny.
00:38:24Once you see this happen, it's odd because if you – I've kind of sat like a watcher watching some
00:38:31of these things from – you can go to their video feeds online.
00:38:35You can see this.
00:38:36When the person checks out – I remember this one minister in particular.
00:38:40When he checked out, you could see on the faces of the crowd they're slightly confused.
00:38:45Why has his sermon changed?
00:38:47What's different about it?
00:38:48And they didn't realize he's mentally checked out until I think it was a year later, this guy.
00:38:52Well, they're sitting there, they're mentally confused, and then some of them began to check out.
00:38:57So it gets – in fact, I think that might be – if I remember correctly, that might be the
00:39:03church where people – that I'm talking about where people actually did escape and husband and wife were mentally checked
00:39:09out.
00:39:09But the thing is, it's the same kind of problem.
00:39:14From the congregation, you can be there physically and not believe it at all.
00:39:17But also from the leadership, you've got both sides, those who did believe it and mentally check out, and then
00:39:23those who simply got in it for the money, sex, power, etc.
00:39:26And also in between, there are people who may be sincere, but they see what works and what doesn't work.
00:39:31They see what kind of sermon, what kind of approach motivates the congregation.
00:39:34They see what kind does not.
00:39:36And so sometimes this may not have been what their scriptures or teaching may say, but they're saying, hey, if
00:39:47I do this, if I give them their bread in circuses, then they'll respond in the correct way.
00:39:53It's – one thing I was talking about, the group Fundamentalist and Ominous, it was – he would make announcements.
00:40:01Occasionally he'd appear on some radio shows and talk about when he was having – when they were having meetings.
00:40:06They were all free.
00:40:08And also there were notices in different newspapers that would offer free notices of different meetings, like 12-step meetings
00:40:14and other groups.
00:40:16And so I went to those, and interesting, because the number of people went in, again, maybe either being because
00:40:23it was in Los Angeles, and also because the problem was so universal.
00:40:27Basically, you think of a group like Fundamentalist and Ominous, it was expected maybe people like Fundamentalist, like Bob Jones,
00:40:33John R. Rice, type of Baptist types or Pentecostal types.
00:40:39And – but maybe because of, again, the problem is so universal, and maybe being in Los Angeles, we began
00:40:46– people coming in who – from Buddhists, Muslim, Jewish backgrounds, people coming in from some new age.
00:40:54And interesting – what we really throw you was – to show you what we call the Fundamentalist mentality, it
00:41:01can go anywhere.
00:41:02We had people from humanists and atheist groups come in, and they just said, it's just – you go there,
00:41:08it's all black and white.
00:41:10It's all – you know, the leaders are so domineering, there's no room for ambiguity – you know, no –
00:41:14for discussion, ambiguity.
00:41:17And so controlling that if you don't do – you know, if you don't disbelieve or not believe, you know,
00:41:22you're this and that.
00:41:24And it was amazing that they actually came to our meetings seeking some sort of relief.
00:41:28Or – so, again, the thinking mentality is elsewhere.
00:41:33I can remember one time a person – we're sitting around this table, and a very nice man, he talked
00:41:39about the long – the problems he had growing up for many years in a small – in a congregation
00:41:50in Valdosta, Georgia, somewhere – oh, somewhere around there.
00:41:54And I remember, as he just talked about all the things he dealt with himself, in the family, and how
00:42:00it affected everything else about him, and so forth.
00:42:03Across – when he finished, across the table, a lady said, you know, if I wasn't looking at you, and
00:42:09knowing who you are, I could have sworn you were talking about the mosque I attended in Lebanon.
00:42:18So, you know, again, it's – in a lot of ways, I found it – no one came to the
00:42:22meeting and said, gee, this scripture really bugs me.
00:42:25No one said, you know, oh, the book of Leviticus or whatever, you know, that's really given me problems.
00:42:31It was all about the mindset, the control, and so forth.
00:42:35Now, it's interesting, because when people came to our group, they were pretty much – they made that step already.
00:42:42So, no one pulled them out of the computer.
00:42:44If they took the effort to find us, find the group, and then actually be able to go and find
00:42:48out, that's a pretty big step.
00:42:50Just like they would say, like, in AA, just the fact that you came to your meeting shows you –
00:42:54you need help or feel that you can't do this anymore.
00:42:58And so, anyway, so what would happen is, people would listen to other people, and, again, some people – they
00:43:06pretty much could figure it out after a few meetings.
00:43:08Some people would go on for a long time, and sometimes maintain friendships with other people for a long time,
00:43:14because they had kindred spirits.
00:43:16But what was fascinating was afterwards how people – their reactions were.
00:43:20Or sometimes they'd think, how could they do this to me?
00:43:25And then it was, how could I let them do this to me?
00:43:29And then it would be like anger.
00:43:32I'd see these cycles of these phases and go, I'm going to get them.
00:43:36I'm going to finish them.
00:43:37I'm going to go on TV.
00:43:38I'm going to protest.
00:43:39I'm going to get a bullhorn.
00:43:40And, you know, I'm going to stand outside and expose them and blah, blah, blah.
00:43:45And then, eventually, some people – like a lot of bad experiences some people have – eventually, they look in
00:43:52perspective.
00:43:53They said, you know, it's part of my life.
00:43:55And now that I got through it, I'm actually grateful that I experienced this, that now I am who I
00:44:01am.
00:44:02You know, it sounds terrible, you know, to say that you – but people can think of all kinds.
00:44:06There were some bad experiences that, ultimately, in the long run, they were glad that they were able to show
00:44:11they were able to get out of that and move on to something else.
00:44:15And it's interesting when they get out, this perspective.
00:44:19Now, what do you – again, what now?
00:44:20What do we do?
00:44:21Now, I always was impressed by you because you said, well, for soon you went to, quote, a regular church.
00:44:26You said, oh, the Bible.
00:44:28Salvation with Jesus.
00:44:29Hey, where did that come from?
00:44:33You know, it's a – you know, surprise, surprise.
00:44:36So, but – I mean, one person told me it's that sometimes you can go through what – the A
00:44:42or B syndrome, the brand X or brand B.
00:44:45We'll figure if the message church isn't right, maybe it's those Pentecostals.
00:44:51If not the Pentecostals, maybe it's the Moonies.
00:44:53Maybe it's the Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:44:54And so they're going back and forth, you know, and hoping to find who has it.
00:45:00Where on the other hand, you know, some women wonder, does it actually exist?
00:45:05Are we pursuing a $3 bill?
00:45:08Who has the real $3 bill?
00:45:10And so – and some people eventually get to the point sooner or later, not all.
00:45:16Some people, they have to – we have to believe it's something.
00:45:18You have to – you can't just throw it out the window.
00:45:22And some people will just say, you know what?
00:45:26Today I'm not going to worry about it.
00:45:28I'll go to the beach, hang out, catch some rays, and maybe go home and watch some trashy TV and
00:45:35not let it bother me.
00:45:38And so – and interesting, because, you know, there are people who they get to that point where I've talked
00:45:42to people.
00:45:43So once in a while, I'd catch up with someone from the group years later, and it used to be
00:45:48such a part of their oppressive life, they haven't thought of in years on the surface.
00:45:53And just like there are people today who have no idea what any of these people have gone through.
00:46:00If you – again, so that – part of it, again, I think part of it in the group I
00:46:05was in, the fundamentalist, anonymous, watching the group.
00:46:08I only – when the psychologist, he got a promotion and had him go to a base up in San
00:46:14Jose.
00:46:14So I ran the group for about a year.
00:46:16And then, unfortunately, my job got too involved and I couldn't run anymore.
00:46:21But, again, the number – the different people and how people reacted, why they got out, how they were able
00:46:27to get out, and also how – then what was their reaction, what path they took in different – was,
00:46:34again, very telling.
00:46:36And I think the key thing is that people realize they can make choices.
00:46:40The key factor is there are choices out there.
00:46:43You can put one foot in front of the other and maybe make mistakes but still make some – but
00:46:48do what you want to do.
00:46:49And I'll say this.
00:46:50The family dynamic makes it so much more complicated.
00:46:53I've worked with hundreds of people at this point to escape their particular group.
00:46:58And I've seen situations, like I described, where both spouses were PIMO.
00:47:03They were physically and mentally out.
00:47:04I've also seen it, though, where one spouse was physically and mentally out.
00:47:09And the other one, once they realized it, they dug in harder to try to, I guess, save the other
00:47:16spouse or something like this.
00:47:17In other words, they become – they actually went in deeper because the other spouse had just simply checked out.
00:47:22Now, complicate that further by either both parents or one parent whenever the children are in there.
00:47:29One parent checks out and thinks, well, I've got to be in there because the children won't be saved if
00:47:33I check out.
00:47:34So they'll stay in, they're physically in, but mentally they're out.
00:47:37Or both may be physically there, mentally out.
00:47:41And then take it a step further complicated with grandparents.
00:47:44So the children are there, they're in the church, their parents are physically in, mentally out.
00:47:50But they realize if they pull their family out, suddenly that link between their children and the grandparents breaks.
00:47:57It's severed.
00:47:58That's what happened to my family.
00:48:00My grandparents were like this.
00:48:02So whenever you have that situation where it's so complicated, it's not simply a question of why did you leave.
00:48:09It's more a question about what did you have to overcome to be able to leave.
00:48:14And I think part of – I think today, I think one of the reasons why a lot of different
00:48:20groups are finding more of a larger exodus is that people have the options.
00:48:23And also there's more opportunities to do other things.
00:48:27It's just like people say, what am I going to do on Sunday morning?
00:48:30Well, there's a lot more things you can do on Sunday morning.
00:48:34And it was – I think part of the question of why did you leave, also part of it was
00:48:41why did you stay?
00:48:42And we were talking about people who fess up later.
00:48:47I can remember one time a person was talking, and her mother was so dogmatic that you go to church
00:48:53and you go to Sunday school and you do all the youth activities.
00:48:56And then later, years later, she was in an argument about, well, her relationship with her mother.
00:49:04But, you know, then you wouldn't go do this and that because you didn't want to go to her church
00:49:09and you didn't want to do this.
00:49:10And she says, I've hated church since I was a little girl.
00:49:14She says, and all that for a lifetime, you forced me to go.
00:49:20Again, the games people play, the roles people play.
00:49:23And so I think part of it is just, you know, people are just being a bit more honest.
00:49:27And to a degree, I think in some cases, I think the pandemic did have an effect where basically it
00:49:33interrupted people's habits.
00:49:35And suddenly people didn't have to – didn't go to church physically.
00:49:39They didn't go to restaurants.
00:49:41They didn't go – they didn't have to do this and that.
00:49:43And then they had to – and suddenly – that's why a lot of different churches, restaurants, movie theaters, suddenly,
00:49:51hey, you all can come back now.
00:49:54And no one was coming because they figured, hey, I don't – I really don't need to do this.
00:49:59You know, I was doing it, but who says I'm – but that was just part of the rhythm that
00:50:05they had.
00:50:06And it was broken and they realized they didn't have to do that or decided not to do that.
00:50:09So it's – I think the important thing is, like I said, seeing the reactions of people who come out
00:50:17and the reason why they came out and then also why they stayed and how each person approaches it from
00:50:23whether – sometimes I hear people, when they say they're deconstructing, it means – sometimes it means they – well,
00:50:29they've taken their faith but do it on their terms rather than – it doesn't have to be allegiance to
00:50:36this person or to this group or this doctrine here.
00:50:39And in some cases, they just – they totally dismantle and just become agnostics or atheists.
00:50:43And all – each person is different, what they need to do.
00:50:46And so it's – I remember – I was talking about Barbara Harrison's book about being a Jehovah's Witness.
00:50:54It's a wonderful book.
00:50:56She talks about her life before, during, and after a Jehovah's Witness.
00:50:58She's converted at nine, and she leaves at 21.
00:51:02And this was – this was during World War II when it was not a popular thing to be Jehovah's
00:51:07Witness because they had just won a major Supreme Court decision that they couldn't – they didn't have to salute
00:51:12the flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance, things like that.
00:51:15But anyway, she says she's going through a terrible time when she was about 21, and she had these terrible
00:51:22headaches, just – incredibly painful headaches.
00:51:27And she thought maybe there's a problem with her eyes.
00:51:29So she went to see an optometrist, an optometrist she had never seen before.
00:51:33And the optometrist did a basic exam, and then sat down in front of her and said,
00:51:40I don't know who you are.
00:51:41I don't know what you do.
00:51:43But whatever you're doing, stop it.
00:51:46It's going to kill you.
00:51:47I've never seen anyone – look in your eyes – I've never seen anyone so controlled as you.
00:51:52The only time I ever saw this was a monk from a monastery when I was in Europe.
00:51:58But whatever you do, you need to stop taking – he says,
00:52:03take a week off, take a month off, take your life off if you need to, but stop it and
00:52:09get out of there.
00:52:11And she says she literally ran out of the optometrist's office, and she was so happy with joy.
00:52:18She said, I'm not sinful.
00:52:20I'm just crazy.
00:52:23And that was part of the start.
00:52:25It's interesting because she writes earlier, just like she says a month earlier, she – it was Sunday afternoon, and
00:52:33she and the others, they got – her watchtower people,
00:52:36they got out of the car, and they each had their bag of watchtower magazines, and they were going to
00:52:39go out to the park or to the sidewalk and hand – and offer them to people.
00:52:43And she says as they were getting out of the car, across the street, she saw a group of young
00:52:48people about her age, and they were getting into their car.
00:52:51They were all wearing bathing suits and had towels.
00:52:54Obviously, they were probably going to the beach there in Brooklyn or wherever.
00:52:59And it's funny, they were laughing, and then there was some rock music playing on the radio.
00:53:07And then she says, you know, she says, I wanted right then and there to throw my watchtower magazines down
00:53:15and jump into that car with them.
00:53:17She says – and interesting, she says, it was like the Wizard of Oz, where – at the beginning of
00:53:21the Wizard of Oz, where my world was in black and white,
00:53:24and their world was in vibrant, technicolor, ultrasound.
00:53:29And she says, I wanted to get into that world of color and of life.
00:53:34And I always found that fascinating how, again, she was in Kansas, but they were in Oz.
00:53:40And she says, I wanted to jump into that car and never look back.
00:53:45And she says, but I didn't.
00:53:48But I knew one day I would.
00:53:52And I think the optometrist, a month later, jump-started that.
00:53:57But, again, I think a part of that is when people see the contrast and changes.
00:54:04I think people – my perception is that people have a greater perception of their options or the greater world
00:54:11around them, Internet and otherwise.
00:54:13Yeah, and I want to go back to something you said because it's actually really important.
00:54:16The lady with the headache.
00:54:16There are severe mental health consequences for being physically and mentally out, long-term.
00:54:24You can do it for a few weeks or whatever.
00:54:27But if you're in it for long-term, you start to have severe mental health challenges.
00:54:32Some of them – we've talked about it in some of the podcasts.
00:54:34You disassociate.
00:54:36You do all these other things.
00:54:37What's odd about it is – I've talked to multiple people that have told me this.
00:54:41Once you're in it, you're physically in it, but you're mentally out for a long period of time, you start
00:54:47to do things like this.
00:54:49I don't know what you would call it.
00:54:51Somebody can comment in the comment feed what this is called.
00:54:54But you do this private test.
00:54:55You start to say to yourself, what's a good way to say – maybe if I fall, nobody's going to
00:55:02be there to catch me.
00:55:03Maybe if I walk away, nobody's going to notice when I walk away.
00:55:06Maybe if I don't show up to church, nobody – so you start to test and see, are people actually
00:55:11watching you?
00:55:12Because you're mentally checked out.
00:55:14You're physically there, but you are not there with the rest of the people.
00:55:17And so you start to test the rest of the people.
00:55:20I've talked to multiple people that did this, and I myself did this.
00:55:24And what was happening was I was starting to realize that I'm part of this world physically, but I'm not
00:55:30mentally part of this world anymore.
00:55:32And those two worlds are eventually just going to collide.
00:55:35So I had to make a decision.
00:55:37What advice would you give to people who are like this, who have been physically there, but they're mentally checked
00:55:43out for such a long time?
00:55:45Well, again, there are options.
00:55:47There's choices.
00:55:48Sometimes you have to create your own, find your own.
00:55:49Like I said, there's people who can find options online or maybe someone to contact or get more references from.
00:55:57And again, sometimes it doesn't mean – one of the problems of the all-or-nothing mentality and fundamentals is
00:56:04you figure, well, gee, if I'm not doing this,
00:56:05if I'm not with the church, the group that's doing right, then I'll probably end up with those Presbyterians or
00:56:13those Episcopalians or, God help you, the Unitarians.
00:56:16And then before you know it, you'll be involved in drugs and group sex, and you'll be on the streets,
00:56:23living off fentanyl and all this stuff.
00:56:27Like I say, people say, no, you may just stay home Sunday morning and watch the ball game.
00:56:33And so it's – I don't want to sound facetious, but again, I think the fact that people make choices
00:56:40and decide.
00:56:41It works on two levels.
00:56:42When you say people leave, sometimes when people sense that if they are not of that same mind,
00:56:48if people sense in the group, since you are not one of them anymore or you're not playing the game
00:56:53with them anymore,
00:56:54they're pretty much going to let you walk.
00:56:56They're not going to – and if you walk away, they'll forget you were there.
00:57:01A lot of times, sometimes people say, well, gee, whatever happened to so-and-so?
00:57:05And the reality is that so-and-so left.
00:57:08Either they did something or said something, and no one really acknowledges it
00:57:13because no one really wants to say why they left or why they're not going there anymore.
00:57:19So again, part of it is – and then the extreme example would be –
00:57:25I remember back in the 80s and 90s, it's not just what it was like then,
00:57:31but some groups like the Church of Scientology, they were very – they could be very vicious.
00:57:35A lot of groups, they figure, well, if you don't want to believe like us, we'll fool you on you.
00:57:38But if you said anything against them, they would go after you.
00:57:41And it was very diabolical.
00:57:44It took lawsuits and court cases before we got to simmer down a little bit.
00:57:49And so anyway, so I don't know if that gave you a good answer,
00:57:53but the fact that people are watching this, people are, again, looking at the sources,
00:58:00checking other people.
00:58:00And again, you'll find out there's other people who just have – the idea – it's almost, again,
00:58:09like asking, well, do you think I should be in the message or out of the message?
00:58:12It's sort of like saying, well, should I be in the Lawrence Wilk fan club or not?
00:58:17You know, and people would say, Lawrence who?
00:58:21And again, so something – again, I'm not trying to sound facetious,
00:58:24but again, it's amazing things that we think are important and eventually, again,
00:58:31we can really make good decisions and channel our energy and direction in other ways.
00:58:36It's not easy and not always – and sometimes people say, I miss that.
00:58:40I miss those people.
00:58:42But also they understand they're missing them because they – but they can't miss them
00:58:45because they know what the price of admission was.
00:58:48A lot of times the group is – people say – a group will say, oh, well, we'll take care
00:58:53of you.
00:58:53We'll – you know, and so – you know, we'll – et cetera.
00:58:57But again, there's the price of admission.
00:59:00And so I remember a person – different cults.
00:59:03A lot of times – once they particularly targeted the hard-scrapple poor,
00:59:09either in poverty – pockets of poverty or in inner cities.
00:59:12You know, let me just put it this way.
00:59:14If you're hungry, I'm going to feed you.
00:59:15If you're homeless, I'm going to shelter you.
00:59:17If you're naked, I'm going to clothe you.
00:59:19And basically – and, you know, people say, oh, I was nobody until they took care of me.
00:59:26But again, there's that price of admission.
00:59:28Absolutely.
00:59:29Well, that's very good advice.
00:59:30Thank you so much for doing this.
00:59:32Thank you for having me.
00:59:33Again, I've enjoyed your podcast and what you do.
00:59:37And you do it so relentlessly day after day.
00:59:39And so your work is very much appreciated and understood.
00:59:43And I'm sure many people feel the same way.
00:59:45Well, thank you.
00:59:46If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story,
00:59:50you can check us out on the web.
00:59:51You can find us at william-branham.org.
00:59:53For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,
00:59:56you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
01:00:00Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.